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General Motors discussions

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  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    Buick OTOH, I don't see GM being able to sell. I think the Lucerne will help Buick's image, as I do think it's a sharp car, as will the new crossover I've seen.

    No one said anything about selling or dropping Buick. York referred to getting rid of Hummer and Saab.
  • flpcguyflpcguy Posts: 24
    I was shocked when CNN reported that Lucinda Corp (GM's biggest investor) wants to eliminate the Buick division. That would be crazy...especially now that Buick has the highest quality rating of any US maker and higher than Lexis according to J.D. Powers number of reported defects per car.

    Add the beautiful new Lucerne, the best looking Buick since 1958 (see TV ad in dark Blue with retro port holes), and you have a winning combination that should bring buyers (mostly satisifed 90's Park Ave owners) back to Buick dealers in droves.

    Maybe Buick won't save GM, but this best run division should be the last to go, not until long after wealthy baby boomers stop buying cars! Kerkorian is no fool. He must know Buick has the best reputation for quality of any GM brand. That's what GM needs most to compete with Toyota and Honda.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    That would be crazy...especially now that Buick has the highest quality rating of any US maker and higher than Lexis according to J.D. Powers number of reported defects per car.

    Where did this come from?
  • gsemikegsemike Long Island, NYPosts: 1,770
    A 3800 pound car with a underpowered V6? Not quite
  • fred222fred222 Posts: 200
    Add the beautiful new Lucerne, the best looking Buick since 1958 (see TV ad in dark Blue with retro port holes), and you have a winning combination that should bring buyers (mostly satisifed 90's Park Ave owners) back to Buick dealers in droves.
    Just how many of those Park avenue owners are there out there? Is it all that GM can do to try to bring back some owners of cars that it made 5-15 years ago?
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    a winning combination that should bring buyers (mostly satisifed 90's Park Ave owners) back to Buick dealers in droves.

    GM's problem is that those satisfied 90's Park Avenue owners are *still* satisfied 90's Park Avenue owners, and are unlikely to run down to their Buick dealer just because GM waves a new name in their face.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    I thought he said merge Buick with Pontiac and GMC (at dealerships). I also disagree about Buick's reputation - there really aren't many people who even look at them.

    The basic idea behind selling any brand is that if those engineers were working on the core brand products - in addition to the guys already working on those - you'd get something better. The resources that go towards the H2 or Saab 9-5 should be going towards a better Tahoe or CTS.

    You're doing the sacred cow thing.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    The basic idea behind selling any brand is that if those engineers were working on the core brand products - in addition to the guys already working on those - you'd get something better. The resources that go towards the H2 or Saab 9-5 should be going towards a better Tahoe or CTS

    yes but the Hummer products are done. Very little Engineering is being done. Same for the large SUV's. They are launched and all the resources and $$$ is either no longer being spent or is being used somewhere else.
  • flpcguyflpcguy Posts: 24
    I can't locate the link but I saw a breakdown of JD Power initial quality ratings on a car website that showed a Buick LeSabre Custom had something like 112 defects per 100 while some model Lexis had 137 or something like that. I was checking on my mother's Buick (2001) so it may have been an old survey.

    I stand corrected. For all practical purposes, Lexis remains #1 in initial quality just about any way you look at it.

    I must question any survey that ranks a Chrysler LHS as having few [REPORTED] defects (2005 survey)!
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I do agree that Impala/Accord/Camry should not really be considered "premium" in most senses though. Mostly just sell as appliances, basic transportation to get from one place to another.
    --end quote--
    My Dad owns a 2000 Camry, and I would classify that as a "premium" car compared to GM cars under $30K. The most quiet, smooth, and easy handling car you can imagine, and it doesn't see the service garage every few months. If it is basic, it is basically better :P Many are bought as an appliance, or commuter car because they keep running like the Eveready Bunny, and have good resale. The great ride and quietness, even with a 4 cylinder is just an added bonus. Why do you think they sell so well in California where people drive a lot? I sold my Corolla, but not because it was going to be trouble. Just got tired of the same car. Sold the Miata too, and got into just one car. Overall, the Corolla was a stellar car compared to the Oldsmobile, luxury, and small cars I bought. Now that is luxury.

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Dump the Lucerne, or make it a entry Caddy. Better yet, lower the price on the FWD Caddy, and there is no need for the Lucerne. I don't think they can milk any profit out this cow!

    Loren
  • Why is this a bogus statement? I am simply comparing GM's efforts in creating a hybrid to other companies' efforts to create a hybrid. Its not like GM is the first company to make a hybrid drive train. I think that there is nothing wrong in comparing two types of hybrid drives. Even you have to admit that simply substituting a motor/generator for a belt driven alternator is a pathetic attempt

    Every fact you submit simply goes to the point that Toyota/Honda/Ford hybrids use more complex systems that produce greater MPG/HP figures at a HUGE expense. Just because the Vue's systems is relatively simplistic and still uses much of the setup of a standard internal combustion engine doesn't make it bad or an embarrassment. For a few thousand dollars (2-3) over a basic 4-cyl Vue with an auto-transmission, you get a nice small SUV with good gas mileage, both city and hwy. I don't care how much more sophisticated the HSD powertrain in the Highlander hybrid is, I'm not getting anywhere close to owning it for $23K.

    The Vue setup is an effective use of relatively siimple tech to achieve better fuel efficiency at a reasonable cost. Not a bad thing, definitely not embarassing.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    Hummers are very well done. But I'd rather see that well-done-ness applied to a mass market product - those aren't quite as well done.

    In fact there shouldn't be side projects at all. That would force any interesting details and innovations onto the Chevy version that everyone's going to buy (speaking in general; not just about SUVs).
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I think that they should replace the larger FWD platforms with a better RWD platform. I doubt that Cadillac can sell enough DTSs to make that FWD model profitable. With the Lucernes added to the mix, if they can sell enough of both, then perhaps there could be a profit. I expect both cars to be replaced in a few years.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I think that they should replace the larger FWD platforms with a better RWD platform. I doubt that Cadillac can sell enough DTSs to make that FWD model profitable. With the Lucernes added to the mix, if they can sell enough of both, then perhaps there could be a profit. I expect both cars to be replaced in a few years.

    --end quote --

    Exactly! Now they have wasted the time and money so badly needed for projects which will work. Does it ever end?

    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I think that they should replace the larger FWD platforms with a better RWD platform. I doubt that Cadillac can sell enough DTSs to make that FWD model profitable. With the Lucernes added to the mix, if they can sell enough of both, then perhaps there could be a profit. I expect both cars to be replaced in a few years.

    These two cars (old ones since not sure how the new ones are selling yet) are two of the most profitable cars at GM.
    For '04, the last full year for the old cars they sold a total of 205,000 cars. That is basically 2 shifts at one plant. Do you really want to give up that profit? there is a big market for large FWD cars.
  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    I was shocked when CNN reported that Lucinda Corp (GM's biggest investor) wants to eliminate the Buick division.

    First of all, it's Tracinda, not Lucinda.

    Secondly, Jerry York of Tracinda said NOTHING about dropping Buick. Tracinda wants to get rid of Hummer and Saab.
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Posts: 775
    I don't know how GM (or anyone else for that matter) is going to compete with the 2007 Camry out this spring...

    The styling is astonishing, both in and out, there's a choice of a 192HP Hybrid or a 268HP!!! V6 with a SIX speed auto, and lots of other goodies.

    http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/index.html?s_van=http://www.toyota.com/new- camry&ref=

    All the criticism of Camry's "bland" styling and driving dynamics has finally paid off.

    What's GM gonna come up with for its Head-2-Head on this - the LaCrosse? A G6 GTP? Give me a break. 2007 will be the year GM becomes #2.
  • irnmdnirnmdn Posts: 240
    Actually the LS460 still doesn't lead that class in hp or torque, the new S550 has a little more in the torque department and 2 more hp.

    Merc needs .9L more displacement to produce the same output as Lexus. Did the germans outsource those vaunted pushrod engines from GM for the S by any chance?
  • irnmdnirnmdn Posts: 240
    All the criticism of Camry's "bland" styling

    One of the reason Camrys are automatically labeled as "bland" is becuase they sell more than 1.5 million copies in each design. If there were 1.5 million ferraris on american roads, they would look bland too.
  • Buicks are some of the best cars in America. Hope they don't go away. I categorize them just as good as w/Cadillacs. Not only are they reliable but they have a certain luxury to them. I wish younger folks would buy them so that the 'senior citizen' image it now has goes away. I'm 44 years old and wish they woul start making some of their toward the younger folks.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Posts: 158
    GM should relinquish the lo-end and rental market to KIA and chinese importers. American patriotism being what it is, this may not be a good time with plant closings in the US for GM to begin importing rebadged chinese vehicles.

    They must go slightly up market to make money using american labor just as Honda and Toyota have done.
    So they need product that will attract consumers like myself into GM showrooms. And here is the first major problem. I know that Chyslers answer to the Civic/Accord duo are the Intrepid and Neon, but offhand I have no idea what the equivalency is in GM (or Ford) models. To me that is a stunning, stunning inditement of their advertising department. Can't blame that on styling, engineering or service competency. I need to know what a Lumina, Cavalier,Sunfire are once and for all. It must be costing a fortune in advertising dollars to establish these names in the minds of consumers. Research has shown that too much choice can be a negative. Reducing the nametags will improve recognition. So what if a model has had a bad year with recalls. It's expected but why does GM have to drop the name just for that, truth can be temporary. I heard it said that early Corollas were a POS because they couldn't handle the full range of the North American climate. They soon fixed the car problems while their advertising investment in promoting the name remained unscathed.

    So a compact sized vehicle with a hybrid drive is what I'll be shopping for next in a few years time. And if it's called a Cavalier I'll have some idea what to expect.

    The next problem GM has, unfortunately, was when they canned and then crushed 300 EV-1's it sent to me and others the message that they no longer had technical vision. They now need to regain consumer confidence in that area which they could do effectively by partnering again at some level with Toyota. I am sure that if they were to produce a hybrid compact car it would generate much needed traffic on their showroom floors. Styling, IMO, is less important right now until they accomplish this. And as far as styling goes Honda's new Civic seems to have stolen the WOW factor for that this year.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    If there were 1.5 million ferraris on american roads, they would look bland too.

    Now thats a stretch!
  • torque_rtorque_r Posts: 500
    Sales of mid-size luxury SUV ($38K-$50K)for 2005.

    1- Lexus RX330/400h: --------- 108,775 up 2%
    2- Acura MDX: ---------------- 57,948 down 2%
    3- BMW X5: ------------------- 37,598 up 3%
    4- Volvo XC90: --------------- 35,976 down 8%
    5- Mercedes ML-Class: -------- 34,959 up 36%
    6- Lexus GX470: -------------- 34,339 down 3%
    7- Infiniti FX: -------------- 26,786 down 13%
    8- Cadillac SRX: ------------- 22,999 down 23%
    9- L. Rover LR3: ------------- 19,346 up 461%
    10- VW Touareg: -------------- 18,050 down 35%
    11- Lincoln Aviator: --------- 15,873 down 33%
    12- Saab 9-7X: --------------- 2,272
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    They are replacing the DTS Caddy FWD with RWD. Seems a waste to make the Lucerne when you have a DTS with plenty of HP and luxury. Just drop the price down to $35K on the DTS. If you look at the resale price in three years, it is about equal to the less costly CTS. There is the actual worth. Given the large size and V8, sell the DTS for $35K and the CTS for $30K with the 3.6V6 and drop the smaller engine. Does Cadillac have the four year of free service and parts like BMW? If not, why not. CTS should be able to best BMW on price, and equal their free service and warranty, if you consider exchange rates on the dollar, and higher cost to build the BMW. BMW will still have the smoother inline 6, but the 3.6V6 ain't so bad.

    Loren
  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    I thought Cadillac dealers begged for the DTS to remain FWD. It has a significant niche almost to itself, whereas there are tons of great RWD luxury sedans. And if the DTS goes RWD, won't it just be an STS?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,754
    2- Saab 9-7X: --------------- 2,272

    "Born from jets".... hahahah!
  • irnmdnirnmdn Posts: 240
    Saab 9-7X: --------------- 2,272

    per GM market research, Saab lost 'significant' number of buyers because there were no SUVs in their lineup. Wonder how many millions were pissed away in the toilet for the aforementioned research.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    No. The DTS alias DeVille and STS were not long ago both FWD cars, and they both sold well as cars distinctly different in nature. The STS is the sports sedan, whereas the DeVille is more traditional Cadillac style and ride, though there is a sport suspension option or type, I think still available. Right now, the CTS and STS look too close. I guess if the size was a larger difference it would help.

    They said DTS was moving to RWD somewhere around 2008 model, but who knows, as everything is upside down. The current DTS is not bad looking. Kinda liked the traditional look of say the 1998 model too. I don't pretend to speak for all those over 50, so it is only my personal take on Cadillac being considered more "cool" or "better valued" compared to the Buicks of the last couple of decades. The resale value and lack of sales here in California on Buicks compared to Cadillac would seem to indicate it is more than just my preference. Part of the perception is that a Buick is more of a gussied up Chevy, than a near Cadillac car. Sort of like a higher class of rental car. Can Buick return to the days when it was a class above the rest? Hard sell, I would say. The new LaCrosse is kinda nice, but it could fit into the Chevy line just as well, if not better. I heard a Lucerne drive off on a test run the other day. It sounded like my old Olds 98 Regency -- wait a minute, that is where they stole the engine. No wonder it sounded familiar.

    Loren
  • kodenamekodename Posts: 141
    "Add the beautiful new Lucerne, the best looking Buick since 1958"
    WHAT? Gee, What can you about this? 1958 Buick was hardly a benchmark for The Best of Buick? Buicks today look like a bloated Large Mouth Bass from the front now. I guess that's Lutz's take on what a Buick should look like.
    ON a more serious note , I though it was very telling when Bob Lutz(head of the GM "house without style") said publicly that neither he or any GM managers should take a pay cut. His logic was it takes high price talent to pull a company out of a tail spin. My immediate thought was this is the same high priced talent that got them into a tail spin!! The same managers who 10 weeks ago announced new value pricing , then took it back, and now say it's on again as they once again announce new lower MSRP's. It's a program (they say)to get the buying public away from the rebate teet. Then they announce special to-dealer $250 rebates to move those hot new SUV's that GM rushed into production that are not selling like the hot cakes Waggoner predicted some 6 months ago. Yeah , they deserve the big money alright. Bill C.
This discussion has been closed.