General Motors discussions

62vetteefp · February 2007

LaCrosse, Lucerne, Velite-cars
Enclave-Crossover

62vetteefp · February 2007

Hp does not come from extra speeds.

They are both LY7 so they should have the same basic engine which includes intake manifold.

BUT in looking at your photos the higher hood in the Lambda allows a better airbox which can make up some of the higher hp. Torque curves are almost exactly the same. The extra bump above 5000 is due to better airflow due to a bigger/more efficient airbox. I guess that is the answer.

bumpy · February 2007

Opel Astra- length: 167.3" width: 68.4" height: 54.8"

Saturn Ion- length: 184.5" width: 67.2" height: 57.4"

Honda Civic- length: 174.8" width: 68.9" height: 53.5"

Honda Fit- length: 157.4" width: 66.2" height: 60.0"

The Astra does get a 1.8L Ecotec 4, but the European version since it's built in Europe anyway.

torque_r · February 2007

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/SUVs_Wagons/2008_Toyota_Highland- - er_Preview.S181.A11871.html

Uninspired. Sort of grown up RAV4. Interior is fine though: 270hp, 17/22 mpg with AWD.
In comparison, Saturn Outlook AWD gets 275hp and 15/22 mpg (2008 rating)

sls002 · February 2007

Not entirely, after posting I looked at the "whats new" link and found that the Lambda 3.6 has significant upgrades in intake and exhaust design. This is a direct quote:
"The 3.6L V6 VVT HO generates more horsepower thanks to changes in the cylinder heads and induction system, increasing airflow through the engine. The intake ports have been reshaped to increase flow, and a new intake manifold features longer runners that reduce airflow restrictions. Finally, the exhaust cams have been re-profiled to speed the flow of exhaust gas out of the engine at wide-open throttle. Maximum lift does not change, but duration increases to keep the exhaust valves open a fraction longer. Preliminary figures indicate a horsepower increase of nearly six percent compared to the previous most powerful version of the 3.6L V6 VVT."

An engine that has 200 lb-ft of torque at 6000 RPMs generates 200x6000/5252 = 228 hp; if you can maintain 200 lb-ft to 6500 RPMs, then you get 248 hp. Note that the 3.6 has more than 200 lb-ft at 6300 for the car engines, while the Lambda 3.6 horsepower peaks at 6600 RPMs, 300 RPMs more which adds about 12 horsepower.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Are you sure the Outlook uses the 2008 ratings? Seem pretty high. I expected a bit lower for 2008 numbers.

torque_r · February 2007

The 2008 Lexus RX350, which is on sale next week, is rated at 17/22, down from 19/24 for 2007, lost 2 mpg city and 2 mpg highway. Do the same for the saturn Outlook and you will get 15/22 mpg, down from 17/24 mpg.

autophile_89 · February 2007

I've recently been thinking about Buick, it's histroy and what direction the brand might take in the next few years. Buick is a very storied brand dating from the early 1900's, and its heyday was in the late 1940's through the early 1970's, when it had a repuation for building stylish, reliable 'banker's hot rods'. But Buick was one of the most tragic victims of 1970's dinosauritis, and though by the beginning of the 1980's Buick had undergone a Kirstie Alley-esque weight loss program, the brand no longer held the clout it once did with the American public. There was a glimmer of hope with the fantastic 1984-1987 Grand National/GNX coupe, but alas GM killed it just as it was catching on and Buick missed a huge marketing oppurtunity. The late 80's and throught the 90's saw Buick producing reliable, functional, fuel effcient but utterly unremarkable cars. After the perky compact Skylark was dropped from the lineup in 1997, Buick maintained a lineup of four sedans for five years. In 2002, the Rendezvous, a crossover and much less homely twin sister to the Pontiac Aztek, joined the lineup. In 2003, Buick further expanded by adding the Rainier, an utterly pointless Envoy/Trailblazer twin which most people have never even heard of. This lineup continued until 2005, when Buick consolidated it's four sedan lineup into a two car lineup; the vanilla bland Century and french vanilla bland Regal became the jaunty LaCrosse, and the jelly bean LeSabre and Park Avenue became the sleek Lucerne. Hope sprung anew that Buick might be unearthing it's sporty roots, but alas, the LaCrosse and Lucerene, though definite steps in the right direction both in their styling, interior quality and driving characteristics, proved to fall short of the expectations of anyone under the age of 55. As a side note, Buick also added it's first minivan, the Terraza, but that was a misstep from day one, and when the Terraza and its other GM brand sisters proved to be uncompetitive, those lame ducks were taken out behind the barn and shot. But as of now, there is a bright light on the horizon for Buick; it is called Enclave. The Enclave replaces the botched Terraza as Buick's people mover and thankfully is one of the few examples of a show car translating to production with the core design and details nearly intact. I have no doubt in my mind that the Enclave is a future design classic. But what about the rest of the Buick lineup? What does the future hold? Ladies and gentlemen of Carspace and the general autmotive community, here is my vision of what the next four years holds for Buick.

2008-2009 model years: Enclave goes on sale in summer of 2007. LaCrosse and Lucerne likely get mid-cycle updates for 2008 model year. Remote possibility that Velite showcar could be made into a production model based on Zeta platform for 2009 model year. Keep your fingers crossed.
2010- This is the year where everything changes. The Lucerne and LaCrosse receive Enclave's elegant styling, switch to the Zeta RWD platform, and hopefully drop the cheesy names (Roadmaster and Invicta would be excellent candidates) and have the same engine/transmission lineup as the G8, the six speed standard across the board, the stick optional on the higher end sport models.
It would work something like this:
-Base, yet still well equipped models of the Invicta/Roadmaster would be dubbed Touring(LaCrosse/Lucerne CX equivalent) and get the 3.6 liter V6 and body colored exterior trim.
The next rung up you would have the luxury tuned models, Invicta/Roadmaster Limited. They also get the 3.6 liter V6, but with more luxury accoutrements and chrome exterior/interior trim pieces(LaCrosse/Lucerne CXL equivalent).
Climb another rung and you have your sport models, for which the retro lable 'Ultra' would be resurrected. They would be powered by the high output 6.0 liter V8 and have sport tuned suspensions, aerodynamic bits like a trunk lip spoiler, optional six speed manual transmission swiped from the G8/Camaro, and monochromatic exterior treatment with either a sporty interior with aluminum trim or luxury interior with real wood trim. Lastly, this is probably unlikely, but what if Buick borrowed the Vette's 6.2 liter V8 and stuffed it into the Roadmaster, added some understated bodywork, rims and badging a la Mercedes AMG to distinguish it from the other models, threw in a precision crafted, sport oriented interior, dubbed it 'Wildcat' and created a true 'banker's hot rod' to go toe to toe with the next gen Chrysler 300 SRT-10? The fully loaded price of a Roadmaster Wildcat would probably fall north of $43,000, but if you had a sedan with the elegant styling of the Enclave and powered by the heart of a Corvette that could run with the M5, the S6, the E63 AMG the STS-V while coming in at a bottom line at least 15k and as much as 50k under their prices, it would be a tremendous value with ridiculous sleeper potential. Buick could easily move 5,000 to 10,000 Wildcats a year if they could keep the price under 50k. Bob Lutz has always had a soft spot for a powerful RWD Buick sedan, and if it he gets even an inkling of an indication from the public that they would buy it, he would make sure it would get built. As long as they have access to this excellent Zeta platform, they may as well get as much use out of it as they can.
And just for fun, it would be cool to see the Invicta get a station wagon model to compete with the Dodge Magnum. If they did build it, it would HAVE to have a modern Skyview roof as a throwback to the Buick wagons of yore. How cool would that be?
2011 - Enclave gets mid-cycle updates. Fully RWD Buick lineup sells like hotcakes, and Buicks are no longer geriatric pillow soft touring cars; they've returned to the glory days of being 'banker's hot rods' once more.

So there you have it, ladies and gentleman. My vision of the future of Buick. Your thoughts and comments are welcome and appreciated.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Did you make up the 2008 numbers or are they listed somewhere?

I see the webpage still has 17/24 for AWD and 18/26 for FWD.

Is there a listing somewhere for all MPG's for 2008 comparing to 2007? Be interesting to see how the vehicles did. When the HP ratings were enforced the imports dropped a whole bunch more than the domestics. Just wondering if the same will happen with MPG.

british_rover · February 2007

I like the G8 except for the hood scoops they need to go.

Even if they are functional they should be changed some what.

Secondly, could they have picked a more fugly interior to put in the press pics?

Nothing wrong with having contrasting interior trim colors but gray/tan/black is not a combo that works.

Just tan and black would have been better.

1487 · February 2007

If I'm not mistaken the OUtlook gets 17/25 with AWD under '07 ratings.

The highlander is indeed nothing more than a pumped up Rav4 although its interior is FAR better than the crap Toyota put in the Rav4. The exterior looks like the Sante Fe as well which isnt good for Toyota since the Sante Fe (and Veracruz) will be much cheaper. I dont see why Toyota made the Highlander so close in size to the RAv4. It's not even that big, only 188 inches long which is more than a foot shorter than the lamdas. Also, where is the 6 speed that the camry has? This thing has picked up 500 lbs in wieght so it's going to need every one of those 270hp. I think the RX has been clocked at 6.8s to 60 with this engine but I think the RX is only about 4100lbs or so.

midwesttrader · February 2007

I do not understand the comments here on $24,000 GTO's/G8's. I compared a Mustang and the V8 with only 300 hp starts at $27,000. Maybe I am missing something? What else is out there with RWD and the HP of the G8(which we really know nothing for sure about it yet)

Look at it this way 62, now that the initial hoopla on the car has pretty much died, I see Ford dealers here offering $4-5K off msrp (primarily on automatics)all the time. Ignoring some differences in content you have $27,000 - $4,000 = $23,000.

carguy58 · February 2007

"Honestly, I dont think the G6 is any more rental grade than the Fusion or Sonata. I find it interesting that people seem to believe you can deride a model STRICTLY because its commonly used at rental agencies."

I think some people don;t like a car being at rental agencies because it gives that car a "rental stigma image" if you will. In my opinion, all makes and models are used at fleets so I don;t see the big deal if the make and model I am going to buy is used as a fleet car.

"IN europe they use Audis and MBs as fleet cars but I dont hear anyone insulting those brands."

In Europe they use MB as Taxicabs too I think. An MB in Europe is not nearly as prestigous as it is here in the States I think.

"If GM continues to cut fleet sales you are going to see more and more Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and Toyota rentals. I saw an altima and Camry at an Enterprise a few weeks back."

Um Hyundai/Kia I read somehere last year their sales to fleets made up to 20% of the their total so they are already were/are big sellers to rentals fleets anyway.
As for the Altima or Camry selling to fleets like I said before you will find all makes and models in rental fleets. As for GM selling to rental they were selling to rental fleets way too much in the first place for the past few years anyway.

carguy58 · February 2007

was the styling and the overall bodystyle of it. I mean the bodystyle had the style of a 2dr coupe like the Accord Coupe or Toyota Camry Solara. I mean the GTO is supposed to be a sports car and have sports car styling and instead it had the styling and the overall mimimicked a 2dr coupe. Imagine a Mustang with a 2dr coupe coupe body on it and 2 dr coupe styling on it(non sports car styling) the car would flop.

Maybe if the GTO was priced and trim leveled(V6 engines offered standard with an optional V-8)like the Mustang is and better styling it would have probably sold better.

jae5 · February 2007

I take it this plant's Aspen capacity will be adsorbed by another plant?

BTW, has anyone even seen an Aspen? And is this the right move, seeing as though the market is really down. Granted understand the lead times, tooling, plant issues and the like, but putting in a new big SUV at this stage in the game is kind of... :confuse:

62vetteefp · February 2007

GM FEATURED IN DISCOVERY CHANNELS FUTURECAR SPECIAL . . . The
Discovery Channel is putting viewers in the drivers seat of automobiles
that will redefine the way we drive in FUTURECAR, a special four-part
series premiering tomorrow, Feb. 7, at 8 PM ET/PT. Viewers journey to
test tracks, design centers and car manufacturers around the world to
gain firsthand knowledge of car design, computer interfaces, alternative
fuel sources and the visionaries shaping the possibilities of tomorrow.
Each episode of the four-part series explores the crucial components of
automobiles in the future. The first part, The Body, answers the
question, What will future cars look like? and takes the audience
inside GMs design internship program for a look at what tomorrows
designers are creating today. Viewers also get a firsthand look at the
tweel, an airless tire that never goes flat, as well as ultra-light
cars, tiny leaning cars, and how haptic technology, the science of
virtual touch, allows designers to build and test-drive cars before
launching into production.

62vetteefp · February 2007

23% are skilled trades at GM! wow!

The highest-paid members of the United Auto Workers union may be pressured
to accept cuts in wages and benefits and perform more jobs this year as
Detroit's automakers yield U.S. market share to Asian rivals, a labor
economist said.

Auto plants owned by Asians in the U.S. have fewer skilled trades workers
who get paid less,'' Sean McAlinden, an analyst for the Center of Auto
Research in Ann Arbor, Michigan, said in a Feb. 3 interview. The UAW now
has to match what they're doing.''

The UAW begins a two-day meeting in Detroit today to prepare the so-called
skilled trades -- workers who perform electrical, maintenance and other
non-assembly work -- for possible demands in contracts talks at General
Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., and DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler. The
union's existing contracts at the money-losing companies expire Sept. 14.

The union is losing its historic ability to set patterns for wages,
benefits and staffing levels for skilled auto workers, McAlinden said. The
waning clout reflects the Detroit automakers' shrinking share of their home
market, now plunging toward the symbolic 50-percent mark, he said.

Of the 83,000 hourly workers that Detroit-based GM now employs in the U.S.,
about 23 percent are assigned to skilled-trades classifications like
electrician or pipefitter, McAlinden said. That compares with about 20
percent at Ford, of Dearborn, Michigan, and 18 percent at Chrysler, of
Auburn Hills.

The comparable figure is 12 percent to 15 percent at U.S. plants operated
by Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., Japan's biggest automakers, he
said.

GM's percentage is higher because GM, the world's largest automaker, has
more job classifications for skilled workers and more restrictions on the
tasks to which they can be assigned.

These classifications and restrictions are negotiated on a
factory-by-factory basis, with guidance from UAW headquarters in Detroit.

Flexibility on job assignments is absolutely what the Detroit automakers
want,'' McAlinden said.

The UAW is the biggest labor group for workers at U.S. automakers. The
union isn't represented at Japanese plants that aren't joint ventures.

Skilled-trades workers at GM now make $30.81 an hour, or about $3 an hour
more than at Asian-owned factories in the U.S., McAlinden said.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Toyota Motor Corp. offers consumers the best selection of vehicles that
retain their value over time and feature other ownership cost benefits,
according to awards that will be announced today at the Chicago Auto Show.

Toyota received 11 "Best Overall Value of the Year" awards, handed out by
IntelliChoice.com, a car-shopping Web site. Lexus, Toyota's luxury brand,
grabbed seven awards. General Motors Corp.'s Chevrolet brand came in a
close second, with 10 awards, led by its new Silverado truck.

62vetteefp · February 2007

But he adds that problems at Toyota attract a disproportionate amount of attention because of the automaker's sterling reputation for quality. "Most companies wouldn't get noticed for these problems."

Really? I think that any company would get noticed for this big of a problem. GM gets more attention all the time. Front page for any recall while Toyota is in the auto section.

Jeff Meckstroth's dispute with Toyota Motor Corp. might have ended quietly on March 1, 2001, when an arbitration panel unanimously agreed that Toyota was liable for the damage to the engine of his 2-year-old $37,000 Lexus RX300 sport utility vehicle.

Instead, it escalated. As the two Toyota representatives packed up their papers, they referred casually to other, similar cases they were handling. "Then we had our suspicions up that this isn't an unusual case, that Lexus knows about the problem, and has formed a response -- just deny, deny, deny," said Meckstroth, a 47-year-old New Orleans stockbroker. "We decided to sue."

What happened to the "good honest citizen" Toyota here? I thought they did not deny issues?

Toyota agreed last fall to settle the case but maintains that its engines were not defective.

Then what is wrong with them? Why have I never heard of huge numbers of sludged engines until now? Do Toyota customers feel that maintainence is not needed?

dhamilton · February 2007

Well hopefully it's as good as everyone says.

A poor mans BMW is a good idea for Pontiac to retain it's "performance" moniker.

Once again, they can't skimp on the steering, gear box, and chassis tuning.

Hopefully the interior is as good as 1487 says it is.

This [executed correctly] is a step in the right direction for GM.

Now if Ford and Lincoln can get their heads out of their asses...........

Kirstie_H · February 2007

Ahem. Let's remember that this discussion isn't about Toyota. It's about GM.

dhamilton · February 2007

I just did the conversion rate on a commodore SS-V. With no options, it came out to 40k US.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rockylee · February 2007

62,

The 2004 concept was based on the ZETA.

Host Steve, sent me this video about 6 months or so ago and I get mixed emotions when I play it. I get

and

at the same time. I want my dream car built so bad 62' and Uncle Bob, is the only one who can build me it. :sick:

http://webmail.windstream.net/agent/mobmain?mobmain=1

All I ask is for CTS level of gadgets. Buick, needs to be as prestige as Cadillac but in a softer way. Cadillac-> BMW/Mercedes. Buick-> Lexus/Lincoln. I have no doubt in my mind that if the Velite got built they would sell everyone of them. Remember my Tiger Woods Velite idea that came with golf equip from about a year ago or so ?????

Tiger, would have these cars on back order. Special features like golf bag holder straps, Tiger's official Buick Bag, and maybe special access or complimentary special golf clubs from Nike/Buick and Tiger endorsed ?

Nike/Buick golf balls, Tee's, Shirts, Pants, Shoe's, etc etc etc.....you get the picture.

Price the Tiger Edition at $49,900 and they would fly off of Buick's lot. You'd have Lexus SC430 owners wanting to trade-up !!!! :shades:

Rocky

1487 · February 2007

again, I am surprised (ok, I'm not) that you havent heard of the commodore. The G8 isnt some unproven entity that GM made up and if you think it's going to be a RWD camry competitor you are wrong. Read up on the Commodore, it's a real sports sedan. I read a review comparing it to the 550 and E550 in Australia and it held it's own for way less dough. There is no "skimping" on the chassis tuning or steering so you dont have to worry. As for the interior, you dont have to take my word for it, read what the media said about the GTO's interior. The GTO was an old model when POntiac imported it while the G8 is based on the 2007 Commodore model. This car is basically a Pontiac version of the G35 or M35/45.

bumpy · February 2007

Problem is that a direct currency conversion doesn't work, because the $AUS price includes taxes and other fees that aren't listed in the $US price. A good rule of thumb is that the equivalent $U price is about 65-70% of the $A figure. The Honda Accord Euro ran about $41,000 AUS with the luxury package in 2003, while the same TSX was about $26,500 in the US.

dhamilton · February 2007

I know what the GTO interior was. I tracked my buddies several times. It's GM's attempt at high class coming out gaudy and cheap.

Yeah, I knew a little about the Commodore. I get that it hangs in #'s wise at a value. That's my argument against the CTS-V.
It performs well on paper, but the experience leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

While the V may beat an S4 around a dry track, the over all Audi [or BMW] experience is way more enjoyable.

Hence my point about luring the "Euro enthusiast crowd". It can't run the same gear box as the V, or have the steering wheel out of the V, or a Peterbuilt [like the V].

It's not just dash stroking I'm talking about. It's dynamic refinement, and minding the details. Or, sweating the small stuff, as Merc 1 would say.

They have to stop half assing around

dhamilton · February 2007

I wasn't factoring in the tax on the AUS price. Do they automatically include taxes in the price?

british_rover · February 2007

Yes.

VAT is typically added automaticly in all advertised prices.

A one series BMW is 80k AUD. :surprise:

louiswei · February 2007

Cadillac-> BMW/Mercedes. Buick-> Lexus/Lincoln

To me, Buick is more like a domestic 2nd-tier luxury brand from GM (Saab being the European-flavored) which direct competitor should be Volvo, Lincoln and Mercury.

Lexus currently has only one model in their lineup shares the same philosophy as Buick and that's the ES350. It is hard for me to image people actually cross-shop Lexus and Buick. IMO, those people whom have found their way into a Lexus showroom will be also interested in MB, Acura, Cadillac and to a certain extend, BMW and Infiniti. Those folks might not have the slightest idea about where their local Buick dealership is.

imidazol97 · February 2007

I recently was in Moraine assembly plant. I saw lots of workers who were on task and had little time for doing something not related to assembly of the Blazer, Envoy, Rainier, Saab, Isuzu, Denali. The assembly line is stoppable and did stop at various times as the guides and I went by. Efficiency seemed to be the name of the game. There were discussions of additional quality checking equipment that was being added to assure maximum quality on the autos when they were delivered.

Tony Stewart had been allowed to set a few engine/transmissions and put on wheels on a few models but I wasn't afforded the opportunity to leave my mark on any of the cars. Imagine a car delivered with a note that the wheels had been put on my "Imidazol" of Edmunds fame.

My biggest surprise was that there was no dead time unlike a tour of a supplier plant as they termed it for Harrison Radiator making compressors that I had been on perhaps 15 years ago. The plant is gone. The IUE workers here sort of smiled when I mentioned the sights I observed at the Harrison plant which had been within 1000 feet of their plant. That plant had been UAW and was a supplier plant. Apparently lots of things have changed for the better in those years between.

I see $30.81 sans benefits I assume cited in the quote. I didn't see anyone who looked like they felt underpaid as they were working. The body language was good from most of the workers. I wonder how the rate compares with a true, real-world value on benefits cost for the Asian-owned and US company-owned plants. Anyone know.

cooterbfd · February 2007

Whoa!!!! I think 62's point was that Toyota seems to get a free pass in the media, while GM has every little burp and fart shoved up their [non-permissible content removed] on the front page. That IS relevant to the GM discussion.

british_rover · February 2007

Tony Stewart had been allowed to set a few engine/transmissions and put on wheels on a few models but I wasn't afforded the opportunity to leave my mark on any of the cars. Imagine a car delivered with a note that the wheels had been put on my "Imidazol" of Edmunds fame.

Totaly off topic but...

Most Land Rovers have a word pad feature that lets you save voice notes to yourself. On more then on occasion we have gotten voice notes left to us by factory workers at Solihull.

Most of the time these notes are funny and benign but sometimes they are kind of dirty.

v_d · February 2007

I don`t know how Opel is an "econobox" but anyways... the Astra is probably aimed at a much younger demographic profile than the Civic. It will be more practical than the Civic because of it`s hatchback (proof that numbers don`t tell the full story), we`ll see how well built it is (Europeans really like it from what I read; and they`re not the kind of people that will get in OUR Corolla - that`s why they have a different one...)
With the Astra, Saturn aims at the VW Rabbit, Mazda3, maybe the 2-door ("non-hatchback") Honda Civic, and really can`t think about anything else right now...
BUT it looks gorgeous... AND IT`s BUILT IN EUROPE(!) which SHOULD mean great quality.

Just for aspects I`d take the Astra any day...

As for the Turbo version, maybe the Astra Red-Line? Anyways, I read that the Opel Astra will drop this year the 2.0 Turbo 170hp for a new 1.6 Turbo with 180hp.

And I hope they`ll bring it to the Canadian International Autoshow... it`ll be a hit in Canada I`m pretty sure (we got a think for hatches)

british_rover · February 2007

I actually really like the look of the Astra.

Depending on how the hatchback drives I might be interested in it.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Thats what I was trying to get at. One of the issues in the states is a overall feeling that Toyota can do no wrong, are wonderful corporate citizens, think about the environment, never break down, etc. GM is perceived as just the opposite.

Yet GM's quality is better than Toyota's in a lot of ways and GM stands behind it with a longer warranty. Toyota is introducing lower fuel economy trucks while GM increase fuel economy with hybrid powerplants (full size trucks). Toyota gets a pass on a huge engine sludge issue. Well maybe it is on the front page of other newspapers but surely not here.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Sorry Rock, Buick will not be as upscale as Cadillac. The volume is just not there and Buick has never had that kind of brand equity.

A $50K Buick? As much as that would be great it is not gonna happen.

walterquint · February 2007

I think the Astra hatchback (which we're getting first) is even shorter than 167.3" above, which applies to the sedan. I could be wrong, however.........I surely like what I see in the Astra. But it's not built in America. So I have no incentive to buy from Saturn, which was conceived as a uniquely American division. It's ironic that the Civic IS built here. So the Civic would be my choice.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Looks like the imported G8 is only a stopgap measure untill they design/build the replacement here in hte states. makes sense. Once they start building it here they can up the volume.

CHICAGO  The Pontiac G8, the highly anticipated rebadged Holden Commodore
SS, could be both halo vehicle and life preserver for what many consider a
sinking brand.

Revealed here today at the Chicago auto show, the G8 will be the first
North American vehicle based on General Motors Corp.s new global
rear-wheel-drive architecture (Zeta) that also will underpin the 09
Chevrolet Camaro.

The G8 is slated to enter Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealers in early 2008, and it
doesnt come a moment too soon.

As a halo vehicle, its really going to give Pontiac a shot in the arm and
provide the product Pontiac needs to support that image of the performance
brand, Eric Merkle, auto analyst with IRN Inc., says.

Its the second time in four years GM has tried to take advantage of the
RWD platform developed by Australias GM Holden Ltd. for the U.S. market.

The Pontiac GTO coupe, based on the Holden Monaro, flopped in the U.S. amid
complaints of bland styling.
The auto maker is hoping the 4-door G8, which comes in both base and GT
models, will prove more practical to buyers.

This will be something that, yes, you can buy it, and it doesnt have to
be a third car, Merkel says.

The base G8 gets a 3.6L DOHC V-6 engine with variable valve timing rated at
261 hp. It is mated to a 5-speed automatic transmission with manual shift
mode.

The brawnier GT benefits from a 6.0L small-block V-8 rated at 362 hp and
391 lb.-ft. of torque (530 Nm). A 6-speed automatic transmission with
manual shift mode is standard, and GM says a 6-speed manual will be
available soon after the G8s launch.

Pontiac intends to offer a sport package for both models that replaces the
standard 18-in. wheels with 19-in. rims and performance tires on the GT.

A rear spoiler, leather shift knob, leather-wrapped steering wheel and
alloy pedals are other perks the GT sport package will offer.

Inside, the GT gets an optional 2-tone cloth or leather combination of
black/red or black/blue. Color-matched instrument faces will be available
on certain exterior color combinations.

All G8s will sport a modernized Pontiac badge that replaces the silver
outline with white.
GM Holden CEO Denny Mooney told an Australian newspaper last month the auto
maker plans to export 30,000 Commodores to the U.S., a larger allotment
than the GTO- Monaro export program.

In comments made before the G8s reveal, Merkle estimates GM will aim to
sell at least 40,000 V-8 G8s. Now that GM has confirmed two engine options,
the export numbers could grow.

A 30,000-40,000-unit sales surge would be a welcome boon for Pontiac, GMs
worst-performing brand. The marques January sales were down 32.6% vs.
year-ago, according to Wards data.

GM has pledged both V-6 and V-8 options for the 09 Camaro coupe and plans
to build 100,000 units in the first year.

The G8 will have a 1-year overlap with the Pontiac Grand Prix, which will
finish its production run at the end of the 08 model year.

62vetteefp · February 2007

Furthering its dive into online social marketing, Pontiac today launched a
MySpace campaign that will pay you when your friends buy Pontiacs.

The "Friends with Benefits" promotion centers on Pontiac's G5 coupe, but
could expand to other vehicles.

Here's how it works: A MySpace user buys a G5 and registers their purchase
online at www.myspace.com/friendswithbenifits. Then they encourage their
online buddies to go out and buy the same car.

When 100 friends buy a G5, that first user earns a $100 MasterCard gift
card. The value could grow to $1,000 if 1,000 friends buy the car.

While having 100 friends buy the same car as you seems unlikely, in the 140
million-person, world-wide, online community, it's not uncommon for users
to have several hundred Internet friends.

62vetteefp · February 2007

"The rear-wheel-drive engineering team has put together a simply
spectacular car that captures the essence of Pontiac," says Pontiac General
Manager John Larson. "We believe that the Pontiac G8 will rival competitors
costing far more."

And just how much is that? When Lutz spilled the beans on the car back in
January, sources suggested pricing starting at around $25,000  with just
30,000 to 50,000 copies available. If G8 can succeed where GM's last Aussie
import  the pricier Monaro-based Pontiac GTO coupe  couldn't, maybe we
won't have to wait through two Bushes and a Clinton for Pontiac's next
rear-drive sedan.

dudleyr · February 2007

What about the estate (wagon). I think that is the best looking one of the bunch and it also has the most room.

torque_r · February 2007

"Thats what I was trying to get at. One of the issues in the states is a overall feeling that Toyota can do no wrong, are wonderful corporate citizens, think about the environment, never break down, etc. GM is perceived as just the opposite"

The latest news I have been reading is that the Media has been talking about GM's comeback for the last 2 years even though GM is still loosing market share. And it is still talking about Toyota sludge problem that concerned models build 5 years ago . So it seems to me quiet the opposite to what you said.

62vetteefp · February 2007

The latest news I have been reading is that the Media has been talking about GM's comeback for the last 2 years even though GM is still loosing market share. And it is still talking about Toyota sludge problem that concerned models build 5 years ago . So it seems to me quiet the opposite to what you said.

They have been talking about GM's comeback for the last 5-6 months. Before that they were saying they were sure to go bankrupt and Wagoner would be fired. Now all of a sudden they are thingking maybe GM is not going out of business and maybe their cars are OK.

So the media jsut cought on that Toyota actually built cars that had sludge problems? This issue has been around for 2-3 years. We just never heard about it until they lost the public court case.

Sorry you will not convince me that Toyota has not been seen as wonderful citizens, invironmental, etc. The truth hurts when it comes out.

celica8 · February 2007

The Velite is really what Buick needs. The Enclave is a giant step forward, but a coupe/convertible would have people say "wow," that's a Buick?

nippononly · February 2007

OMG! GM fans can't let go of this perceived press bias issue, even though Ford and Chrysler fans don't seem to care one whit!

Hey you know what, if there IS either a massive media conspiracy or bias against GM, then GM has to come up with a plan to overcome it, right? Bleating about how unfair it is won't change it, right? And as I think many fans of the General will admit, it has done its own share of less-than-truthful media hyping over the years.

Me, I think that because GM and Ford are domestic automakers, and we are in the U.S., the American press naturally pay more attention to them than they do to the foreign automakers. GM and Ford are "our" news, after all, whereas what is going on at a Japanese company isn't so much. I mean, think about it, EXCEPT FOR carmakers, ask yourself how much news you EVER hear about Japanese companies. Maybe five minutes of press attention, over in a day, about how batteries in Sony laptops were defective, huh? Stuff like that?

But the Toyota sludge thing made the evening news both locally and nationally at the time, as well as in-depth reports once it had shaken out a bit, at my favorite news source, NPR. Whatever, I say. I don't believe there is a national, wide-reaching press bias, but if so GM will have to counteract it with a media blitz of its own showing warranty claim rates down (to prove reliability) and performance and/or price advantages (things which can be presented in cold, hard, simple-to-understand numbers for people to see). It's not like GM doesn't spend a TON of money on advertising.

edit...Here's a headline making the rounds this week at Auto News, Detroit News, and many others: "Toyota quietly puts incentives on its hybrids". This relates to Toyota's new incentivized lease on the Prius, as well as some special financing deals. To me, the wording of this headline has kind of an insidious tone, like "look what Toyota is trying to slip us when we weren't looking". First of all, I don't know how it is "quietly" doing this - they have a huge national TV ad campaign to announce it to the cheap seats. But more importantly, if I wanted to find "press bias" against Toyota, I think this would be exhibit A. It makes Toyota sound underhanded, and also makes it sounds like Toyota's hybrids are a flop not worth buying, but they are hoping you won't discover that before you have bought one.
BUT I don't believe there is a press bias against Toyota, any more than there is one against GM. Just more attention given to GM, which will be a good thing this year, as it looks to be the year of Saturn, not to mention the year of the Lambdas...

torque_r · February 2007

"Sorry you will not convince me that Toyota has not been seen as wonderful citizens, invironmental, etc. The truth hurts when it comes out"

I am not trying to convince you anything. But whatever you are saying does not change the fact GM is about to loose its top-seller title to Toyota. Even the trend in the States is heading toward that direction. It might not the wonderful citizens of Toyota, nor the environment, nor the style, but Toyota is doing someting right and GM should learn from it. If we keep blaming the media for GM's problems, then why should we get excited about GM's great upcoming cars? It wouldn't matter, would it?

rockylee · February 2007

Well The Lucerne is going RWD. Perhaps with cars like Enclave, and maybe a Velite, a RWD LaCrosse or alternative that Lexus image will show up. I'd rather own own a Lucerne over the ES350. The LaCrosse is only missing RWD/AWD.

I personally would like to see the LaCrosse be a 4 door Buick Grand National type of car but keep it different from the G8 by making it AWD and using a Twin Turbo V-6. I doubt that happens and it's probably best. A better idea yet I suppose they could really stretch the Lucerne out and make it bigger yet leaving the LaCrosse enough room to be more of a midsize RWD luxury car. I'd still use the Twin Turbo V-6 to keep the distinguishment quality's there.

Rocky

rockylee · February 2007

Nippon,

I guess the thousands of us that write about it are all blind then. I see people write about the press biasness against GM all over the net, in car mags, and sometimes in newspapers. I will however admit this is the nicest I've ever seen the press to GM. Perhaps some of the bad news coming from Toyota, over the last year is making some folks second guess where they stand. The hiding of recalls for 8 years is like slapping some owners in the face. Toyota, arrogantly saying it wasn't a engineering issue regarding the engine sludge is more medicine.

I'm sorry to smile but this is good news for us domestic fans. It's like we are finally starting to catch a break or two and the media isn't slamming GM, as often now. Angus McKenzie, said it best. Sometimes being #2 is better than being #1. You can concentrate on playing like #1 but without all the press coverage watching every move you make. I know GM will be #1 again in my lifetime if they lose that title this year. It would make a great Rocky Balboa story as GM, is the under dog and he's fighting the more talented and younger #1 contender Toyota, that has been given all the breaks. Toyota, uses all it's ability to knock-out the champ. The former champ GM, wants another crack at the title because he's not finished. GM, isn't finished. GM, has to much pride to lay down and die and will use all its experience and resources to win back that title it's so proud of.
GM, I promise you will get the american people to root for them before it's over. Most american's deep down want the home team to be #1. We root for our american athletes, our soldiers, and soon many will root for our old dinosaurs. We are americans after all and we like to be #1 at everything. That desire is what makes our country so great !!!!

Rocky

rockylee · February 2007

62' you and I hardly ever disagree but here's one time where you and I do.

I think GM, needs to move buick up market. The Lacrosse needs to be a Entry-Level Luxury Sedan priced about where the CTS is. The CTS will be the sport/lux sedan and the LaCrosse can be the softer/conservative luxury sedan. I do see volume and a market for my philosophy. Cadillac will have to of course keep it's sporting nature and not go soft. Cadillac, needs to be more like BMW/Mercedes and Buick, needs to be more numb or a better word cushy like Lexus. Lemko's Cadillac Seville STS's with magnectic ride control should be the desired ride target for Buick. I owned one of those Cadillac's and I know what it feels like. The current Buick Lucerne has that same feel. It just needs the power to go to the rear wheels instead of the front wheels. I also would really stretch out the Lucerne and make it as big as a S-Class Mercedes. The LaCrosse, could then be about the size of the current Lucerne or it's current size to keep it distinguishable.

Buick needs to build cars to a standard instead of a price point. GM, can change the perception that Buick, is as good as Cadillac/Lexus but with softer conservative tones. The Enclave needs to go slightly more upscale by adding the wooden tables, adding the rear center console, adding the dual flip-down rear ent. system screens, etc, etc, even if it pushes into the $50K mark. They just need the product to justify the price and only a benchmark interior, gadgets, and design can win that support a long with good marketing.

I'd also market Buick's products to not only to us golfers, but to maybe Tennis, and gamblers. I'd use the World Series of Poker oppertunity that millions watch on ESPN to get the Buick brand out there and give the winner his/her choice of a buick.

These are just some of my idea's 62' and we will just have to disagree where Buick should be.

Rocky

rockylee · February 2007

http://gmtv.feedroom.com :shades:

Rocky

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