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General Motors discussions

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  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Toyota's rise and GM's fall didn't happen over night.

    Chevy started to show quality control problems in the mid-1960s (do some research on the failing motor mounts that affected MILLIONS of V-8 Chevys built from 1965-69). Fit and finish on Chevys declined noticeably around 1965. "

    Ancient history, times change. You are talking about things that happened a decade before I was even born. AS proof that things change drastically over decades consider than from 1941-1945 we were at war with Japan and hated their guts. Now we admire their culture and their products and feel US methods and idealogies (pertaining to business and manufacturing) are clearly inferior. Your arguments about swearing off US cars due to sins of the 60s and 70s is similar to the people who woudlnt buy foreign cars for 30 years after WW2 ended.

    But hey, maybe you're right about basing car decisons on quality reputations from 40 years back.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    Now 1487, don't jump down my throat just because you and grbeck are having this ongoing dispute.

    I was only trying to read between the lines, and I may have the wrong interpretation.

    But they are talking about mandating a 3-4% per year fleet fuel economy improvement, and I am saying that could just as easily be achieved by shifting the sales mix 4% per year towards small gas-sippers as it could be accomplished by major engineering revisions in the large cars.

    Someone else has suggested that Lutz may have just been making those remarks as a political move to stave off such a government mandate. That may well be the case, rather than my interpretation of his remarks.

    And the GMT900 hybrid, while a laudable effort, is only one segment of the market, right? If instead of shifting the sales mix, they are going to try and improve fuel economy across the board, then there are about 15 other classes of GM vehicles that will need to be improved as well. Malibu hybrid will use the Vue and Aura hybrid system, making them the models with the least improvement in fuel economy (and least extra cost to the customer in dollars) in the midsize class. They will need to get gen-II out in a hurry. The Astra and Cobalt are marketed as GM's small cars, yet really aren't that small, and their fuel economy is not near the top of the class. That may be easier (less investment needed) to improve than the fuel economy in other classes. The Outlook/Acadia is still pretty low on the FE scale, although about par for the course in their segments.

    They should be able to extract significantly better fuel economy from their crossovers, IMO, than from their large BOF trucks and SUVs, yet we see that because of rampant weight gain the FE of the crossovers isn't that much better. A massive weight loss program could go a long way to improving that situation.

    I have been reading in Autoweek about several of these little Chevy concepts, Trax and a couple of others, from the Daewoo division. That's a really good idea - get more variants of attractive fuel-sippers out there, and sales will pick up and balance out the large V-6 and V-8 powered cars.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,149
    Geeze, I've owned MANY GM cars that were manufactured within the last 30 years:

    1979 Buick Park Avenue
    1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency
    1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
    1988 Buick Park Avenue
    1989 Cadillac Brougham
    1994 Cadillac DeVille
    2002 Cadillac Seville STS

    If these cars were crap, then DANG!!! The new GM cars must REALLY, REALLY be AWESOME!
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "My parents would have been thrilled if GM had extended the warranty on their 1999 Park Avenue for the faulty intake manifold gasket. That way they wouldn't have had to pay four figures to have the engine fixed. "

    Sorry to hear that. the 3800 is a widely used engine and I didnt know that these failures were widespread. Interestingly enough, CR has found 3800 equipped vehicles to be reliable. My parent's car has the 3800 and there have been no problems after 90k miles.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    GM's large crossovers have best in class fuel economy in spite of their weight. Compare their mileage to the similarly heavy toureg, SRX, ML350 and Q7. The FWD crossovers are much better.

    The astra is rated at 27/35 under current EPA standards, not best in class but better than most competitors.

    GM has hybrid pickups and lambda crossovers coming in the future.

    "Malibu hybrid will use the Vue and Aura hybrid system, making them the models with the least improvement in fuel economy (and least extra cost to the customer in dollars) in the midsize class."

    Dont understand this statement. The Aura GL gets the same mileage as the Accord hybrid even though the Accord has the more complex system. The Altima hybrid has great EPA ratings but C&D got about 24mpg in real world driving. The Malibu I-4 with 6 speed will get best in class non-hybrid economy of 22/31. Accord and Camry are less than that under 2008 standards.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    lemko,

    How many of those rides lasted more than 50k miles without an engine rebuild? Come on, be honest with us. I guess you got lucky 7 times.
  • gpkgpk Posts: 38
    Unless you have a family member working at the GM plants who cares. GM will go on because of the die hard loyalist.
    Why is it when you go to a Honda or Toyota board no one mentions GM. People buy what they want just leave it at that.
    I feel no sympathy for the big 2.5. A lot of there image issues have been self inflicted. If I want a truck I would consider a GM but not for a car.
    GM is turning their act around but they need to go further. Get rid of the redundant models. I think that the Aura is a step in the right direction. Now they need something that can compete in the compact class. They need to compete effectively in all of the classes that are currently on the market.

    As far as the Accord well I have owned two, they are OK cars. I wouldn't say they are the best but they are average. I really do not see anything out in the market that I feel is a phenomenal product. I currently drive a Honda Civic it gets good gas mileage is quiet and comfortable just what I look for in a car. Which ever automaker meets my future needs I will buy from. Right now Honda is the only one. I think that Honda needs to improve a few things but right now the balance is where its at.
    Instead of bashing the imports GM needs to realize what they are doing and copy it after all thats what the imports are famous for.
  • gpkgpk Posts: 38
    :confuse:
    With a 6 speed auto thats the best they can do?
    The Malibu I-4 with 6 speed will get best in class non-hybrid economy of 22/31.
    I just do not understand how people consider 22/31 good mileage thats pathetic. Dont get me wrong I think its dismal that all cars cannot average at least 30/40. With all the advancements in HP ratings someone should have been thinking about gas mileage. :sick:
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    You seem obsessed with how well Honda is doing compared to GM. This is a prime example of GM's thinking over the years. They got so focused on the competitions efforts, they forgot how to be innovative, and class leading with their own fleet of car.

    As for the Aura, it is an alright car in the XE compared to other four cylinder cars in class, and it is a pretty darn good performer in the XR model, which is closer to the Japan competition. It is however not really a better car than the Honda Accord SE, all things considered. On the balance of its strength, vs, weakness, it may good choice when looking for a GM car, it could be considered an equal, but not an overall better car. Value wise, it is less a return on the dollar over the years. As for looks, that is subjective, and thus a nil factor. Well, there are some cars, like the current Malibu which do stick out like a soar thumb.

    You refer to the Accord as being mid-pack. Interesting to note how well your so-called mid-pack rated car does in reviews against the newest of new car designs. Of course the Aura is yet another G6 and thus has a couple years on her now. The Camry is brand new, which is good and bad, as little kinks have to be worked out, unlike the older Accord design, which has had some time on the clock. Did not car so much for the New Altima CVT transmission and overall feel. And the location of the emergency foot brake is worse than the Aura. Actually, both should use a hand brake.
    Loren
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    The dealer had to rebuild the engine. The coolant had leaked internally and ruined the bearings, from what I understood.

    This GM dealer has been in business for decades, and treated my parents well before, so I'm not inclined to believe that they were gouged. It is a Buick-Cadillac-Pontiac dealer loacted in a rapidly growing small town, so if its practices were shady, word would have gotten around by now.

    Overall, my parents aren't complaining...they still like GM and are satisfied with the comfort, reliability and performance of their Buick and would buy a Lucerne. They just aren't looking for a new car right now.

    I agree that if GM had stepped up to the plate and paid for the relatively easy fix by replacing the intake manifold gaskets prior to failure, the whole problem would be a big non-issue.

    And unlike the Ford 3.8 V-6, at least the GM engine isn't a dog even when it is running.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    My Accord V6 gets 29 MPG. I would think the Malibu i4, with 6 sp. should really get around 34 or 35 MPG on the freeway. I'll take the power difference. And I think after the engine is broke in more, my MPG should go to 30 MPG or better.

    The hot New Malibu will the one with the 3.6 V6, though gas mileage will be what, 28 MPG freeway? Well worth it for power over that four banger. I would stick with V6 in domestic cars.
    Loren
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,149
    Absolutely no major problems. Shoot, if ANY car I owned needed an engine rebuild at that early mileage, I'd dumped it faster than a handful of hot rivets.

    According to the posters on Edmunds, I must be the luckiest guy in the world! With my luck I should hit the lottery every time, would clean out Vegas, Atlantic City, Reno, and all other casinos, and my horse would win every time at the track.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Typical failure is after 70K miles.

    Loren
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    1487: Incorrect. GM's SUVs always have the highest incentives. The incentives on the Cobalt have been relatively small for quite some time now but the Civic is newer so I would expect it so sell for closer to MSRP. I fail to see how my argument evaporates if the big rebates on are GM's larger, more expensive vehicles and GM has far more of those vehicles than Honda. The incentives on most GM cars is under $2000, some are much lower than that figure. Check it out for yourself.

    But GM's incentives on a particular model are still higher than on comparable Honda mddels, which is my point.

    1487: CR? Please, no comment.

    Just because you disagree with a publication's test results does not make it invalid. You'll have to do better than that.

    1487: C&D? they compared a V6 Aura to a lighter, more efficient Accord 4.

    And whose fault is it that GM does not have a competitive, more efficient, four-cylinder engine available in the Aura?

    It isn't Car & Driver's fault. The magazine only test cars, it does not design or manufacture them. The magazine can only test the cars that the manufacturer makes.

    1487: If you look at that recent test there isn't much reason for the Accord to finish ahead of the Altima or Aura, both cars beat it in performance, had more features, looked better, etc.

    The testers had a reason, and since they actually drove all of these cars, I'm inclinded to trust their judgment.

    1487: Automobile said they liked the handling and overall package of the Aura better than Camry or Accord in their new car issue last October.

    I missed that...thank you.

    1487: Autoweek said they preferred the Aura to the Camry and the Accord wasnt even invited since it's old. Obviosuly they believed the Camry is better than Accord which means the Aura was better than both.

    No, the Camry is new, and the Accord isn't, which is why it was tested against the Aura and not the Accord. Plus the Camry is the number-one seller in its segment, and among all passenger cars in general. That is what is obvious.

    1487: I mean, it's pointless to try and make rational arguments if you're an unconditional accord fan who sees no fault in the car and believes after 4 years its better than all the newer competition.

    I don't believe it...I know it because independent testers have reached those conclusions.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    I brought that up to show that GM's problems didn't happen overnight, and customers DID give GM many second chances. It wasn't as though GM was making world-class cars one year, and complete junk the next.

    And the quality problems were not spread throughout GM's lineup. Many customers were well aware of this.

    For instance, during the mid-1970s, the Vega's problems were very well known. My parents wouldn't touch one...but they happily bought a 1976 Oldsmobile Delta 88 (and had no major problems with it for over 100,000 miles).

    Unfortunately, GM went to common drivetrains and components among the divisions, which robbed them of their identity and ensured that quality problems would hit ALL of the divisions. It did save money in the short run, but over the long haul it has been a disaster.

    As for why people swear off domestic cars - I can't help why they do it. But, in a free society, that is their right.

    GM exists to serve and satisfy customers.

    Customers do not exist to keep GM in business or make sure that a UAW member never loses his or her job.

    After many years, GM management appears to be figuring this one out. The UAW I'm still not sure about...
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    If statistically, GM cars on the average, over a three decade period are on par, or better than the Japanese / other brand cars, why do you think they are losing sales each year? Is this some sort of a vast right wing, or is that left wing conspiracy, Hillary has warned the world of. :D No, no, no, just look at the real history. It would be revisionist history not to ignore one misstep after another over the years. We got to this point in history in this sad shape for some reason.

    Face the facts, build the cars people will want going forward, and get on with it. Desirable cars, at the right price, which are reliable, is what is needed, and not trying to re-write history, or blame the competition when you shoot yourself in the foot.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way.
    Loren
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,149
    I don't know. All I know from my experience is that GM works for me. Just because they're losing sales, etc. etc. doesn't mean anything to me personally unless things get so bad that I can no longer buy a new Cadillac or Buick. Then, I'm going to be exponentially furious. Heck, I'm still mourning Oldsmobile.

    Desirable cars, at the right price, which are reliable, is what is needed...

    True, and is exactly what I find at my Buick or Cadillac dealer.

    One good reason I won't buy Asian cars is because they are so gosh-darn ugly! I do not like Lexus' new styling direction. I liked 'em better when they were aping the last generation Mercedes S-Class. Infiniti? GROTESQUE!!!

    They can't even get their truck styling straight. The Ridgeline is a pseudo-truck with a mish-mash of lines that makes an Aztek look good. The Tundra's front end reminds me of one of those big pig-rhinoceros guys that acted as Jabba the Hut's henchmen.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Yeap, most all cars make it to 50K miles. The best make it to 200K or 300K without fail. What I found, over the years with GM, everything but the engine internals, became the problem. While they may not pull the heads on the '87 3.8V6, they replace the mass air flow sensor, programmable manager something or other thing, and a crank case sensor. And the transmission blew. The rear view mirror fell off. The handle to the parking brake pulled off. The paint went bad. The windshield had a whistle to it. We are talking a $20K car, which would be closer to $30K car these days. Pretty nice car, other than it not running properly. Got decent gas mileage. But alas, was worn out in three years time, and had all too many problems in every year.

    I would say move on, and concentrate on better cars going forward. Seems though that people want to re-write the history. I don't care to sugar coat history, it was what it was, so get on with the new stuff. The old cars, even when running 100%, were not up to the times. People started demanding the handling, the quality, and feel of the modern car. The Cobalt seems to me like a New Old car. Let's see the New, new stuff.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    The CTS look seems to work in its size class. The STS seems to be in need of a complete new look. The slightly altered, then enlarged CTS to build the STS doesn't work.

    Buick still seems more like yesterday. I guess that is OK for some, but it seems like they are stuck in a rut. For a nice smooth ride, they can deliver. In 2007, it seems like they have to be more into the future however. I liked the looks of the last Aurora, and feel it is more modern a look than is the LaCrosse. The last Camaro is a looker - very sleek looking. But time marches on, and I am afraid we are looking in the rear view mirror.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    If Lutz, shuts the door on the new RWD cars GM, is finished in my estimation. The only solution with these CAFE issues is the 2-mode hybrid to get mileage up ? What else can they do ? The new RWD's were the automobiles that were going to really give GM, some distinction and the Feds shut the door on GM, well at least from my perspective. Will people buy a V8 hybrid Impala ? Maybe or maybe not as some in the public have not given the hybrid engine it's faith as they fear it could be a cost issue as far as repairs go down the road.

    Is Putz folding to soon is the question ? :surprise:

    My Velite, might of just received the final nail in it's coffin. :cry: :sick:

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    GM is probably lucky that no one knows what a 'velite' actually was.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    "I'm not going to support a manufacturer who sold me a problematic product" will have excuses galore for Toyota now and will most likely buy another Toyota product. The bottom line is GM (or Ford) dont get second chances with most import leaning customers but Toyota and Honda will always get the benefit of the doubt.

    I myself, clearly favor the imports, because they are clearly superior in quality, refinement, economy, value, and sophistication in my mind. Also, the reliablity and dependability are light years apart in my eyes. Furthermore, I had an American car that burned me with repairs that cost big time $$$ every 3 or 4 months. I had a Honda that cost me nothing but regular maintenance for 50 months and 65,000 miles.

    Most importantly, I myself do not give Toyota or Honda any benefit of any doubt. No second chances for Dodge, yes, Honda will get aa second chance.

    Both cars had transmissions fail early in their lives, but the difference is Honda stepped up and paid to replace my tranny, while Dodge looked the other direction and stated it was normal for "parts to just breakdown" and I quote. If Dodge had paid for my tranny failure like Honda did, US makes would still be on my "consideration" list. Since they didn't pay for anything after 3 years/36K, they are on my black list.

    Honda paid for the tranny after warranty and they are on my "yes, can I have another" list.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Wow, the offence is taking arms! They are serious :D
  • I envision a day when GM will once again make great cars and trucks.

    Check this story out.

    http://www.sacbee.com/130/story/152695.html
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "I think that the Aura is a step in the right direction. Now they need something that can compete in the compact class. They need to compete effectively in all of the classes that are currently on the market. "

    I think GM is competitive in every segment. Their small cars could use smaller engines with better mileage and are clearly not best in class, but they are definitely decent. Aside from small cars what segments is GM stinking up? You make it seem as if they offer nothing worth buying outside of SUVs.

    "Why is it when you go to a Honda or Toyota board no one mentions GM. People buy what they want just leave it at that. "

    Just to be clear, I dont think the regulars here want to discuss Honda or even care much about Honda. Honda has come up because there are several Honda fans here who get offended if anyone suggests Hondas aren't worthy of worship. I suspect that no one in Honda/Toyota forums mentions GM because most import drivers are unfamaliar with GM offerings and would never consider a GM product regardless of product competence.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    that is under the NEW standards. I didnt think I had to explain that. The Accord is at 21/31 with a four under the new standards I think. Altima and Camry are about the same give or take 1mpg. BTW, your precious civic doesnt get 40mpg under the new standards. I believe its 26/36 or so.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "You refer to the Accord as being mid-pack. Interesting to note how well your so-called mid-pack rated car does in reviews against the newest of new car designs."

    I understand that you own the Accord and that means you love it. The car is decent and its a good choice. I have no clue why you believe the Accord has been defeating the competition in all these comparos. The accord won ONE C&D comparo vs newer competitors. Thats it. It didnt even win the last two Edmunds comparos it was involved in. I already said Motorweek picked Aura as best family sedan. I already said autoweek picked Aura over Camry since the Camry is likely considered a contender for best in class. If you are aware of other tests where the Altima, '07 Camry or Aura lost to the Accord let me know.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The 2008 Malibu would get 34-35mpg hwy under current EPA standards. The Accord V6 gets 18/26 under new standards. Sorry, but the Accord V6 doesn't beat the Malibu 4 in mileage.

    Malibu V6 gets 18/26 which is considerably worse than four.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    my parents last three cars exceeded that number. They are over 90k on th Olds right now. MY uncle had a Delta 88 that lasted over 180k miles. I know thats nothing by Honda standards but its still pretty impressive.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Just because you disagree with a publication's test results does not make it invalid. You'll have to do better than that. "

    how about this: I put no stock in a magazine that rates cars but wont tell you how they acheive the scores. i bet you never noticed that since CR always puts Hondas on top. CR's point scale is a complete joke that is not backed up by anything. If you have evidence to the contrary please share with us.

    "And whose fault is it that GM does not have a competitive, more efficient, four-cylinder engine available in the Aura? "

    Gm has a four in the mechanically identical G6. It would've been cheaper, lighter and gotten better mileage. BTW, the mileage on the G6 (and malibu) four is virtually identical to accord and camry with fours and autos. Inefficient? If you say so.

    "I don't believe it...I know it because independent testers have reached those conclusions"

    name two tests where the Accord beat out the current crop of midsize cars including Aura, altima, sonata, Camry.

    "Plus the Camry is the number-one seller in its segment, and among all passenger cars in general. That is what is obvious. "

    what is obvious is that the accord wasnt invited since its been surpassed. You cant honestly think autoweek believes the camry SE is worse that the 4 year old accord. There isnt one area where the Camry is inferior. It got more power, better styling and far more featurs than the Accord.
This discussion has been closed.