Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





General Motors discussions

1657658660662663930

Comments

  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    When the G6 came out most of the press liked the styling. The worst criticism I saw was someone calling it a little bland but that was an exception. I have no idea how you (a Honda fan) can say the G6 looked dated from day one. I think that just goes to show you dont like anything GM makes. Give me a break.

    I dont know where you live (CA probably) but I assure you the G6 is selling and I see them all the time. I have seen hundreds on the road and probably see 3-5 a day. I have seen all three models, but the GTP is pretty rare as is the convertible obviously. I understand that a lot of posters are from the west coast where domestic cars are only found at airports but that isnt necessarily representative of the country as a whole.

    Just trying to be helpful.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    it is not easy or necessarily profitable to bring over non luxury cars from Europe.

    You have to remember that one reason GM/Ford small and midsize cars are better in Europe is that they cost more and compete with higher end products. In the US no one considers a GM model (except Caddy) or Ford model to be competition for lower end BMWs or MBs but that isnt the case in Europe. Over there gas is high and people like premium compacts and midsize cars. Over there high speed cruising and smooth roads are the norm and their cars are designed for those conditions. GM could very well build Cobalts with navigation, big wheels (OK they have that here), 250hp engines, sport seats, HIDS, etc., but such cars would be $25k or more and none would sell. What people really want is for GM/Ford to offer the goodies of Euro models but charge the same old US prices and that aint happening. Making those cars here would not solve the problem at all, more content and performance will cost you more money.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,342
    I was disappointed in the styling but there's nothing wrong with it. I was hoping for a departure from the every Pontiac looks like a Pontiac. Heck you could line it up with the 67 Tempest I learned to drive on.

    I guess my real reason for not liking it is the fact that I never liked the classic Pontiac styling to begin with. And yet, somehow, I don't mind that you can identify a Buick from a mile away. There's a certain elegance to it. I can understand how soem would feel abou Buick like I do about Pontiac. "Hey, look at that old guy car!" Well, I can order of the senior menu at IHOP (you have to be 55 for that) but haven't reached geezer age yet (I haven't seen that defined anywhere yet).

    Right now a Buick with a tight suspension and an attitude hiding behind that conservative exterior could work.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The focus is being significantly upgraded for 2008. Really only the powertrain isnt being updated.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    I like the G6, it's just that Pontiac has never really been my brand. My criticism of the G6 is that that back wheels seem a little too set back to the rear bumper. The coupe is really nice.

    Now, those '60s Pontiacs! Good God! They were works of art! What do you do for an encore? When you stepped into a 1960s Pontiac, you KNOW you clearly were a step up from a Chevrolet.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I totally diagree. The Mini is a niche player and its sales are nothing compared to Corolla, Civic or even Cobalt. Lets not act like the top selling small cars cost over $20k. Most people wont even shell out $20k for a civic and that is one of the most respected small cars out there. The 3 is doing well FOR A MAZDA but its sales are nothing compared to the cheaper civic and corolla. A focus in the US priced between $17k-$25k would get great reviews and be a sales flop, its that simple. The enthusiast press, not the public, is asking for a $25k Euro focus. This is the primary reason why people who write for car magazines are writers and not auto execs. These are the same people who wanted GM to build the Chevy SSR which turned out to be a terrible idea.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,952
    Lumina started in 1988.

    No, it was 1990 for the Lumina. GM's other W-bodies: the Grand Prix, Regal, and Cutlass Supreme coupe, came out as 1988 models. The Lumina was held back until 1990 though, and launched at the same time as the 4-door Cutlass, Grand Prix, and Regal.

    Chevy and Pontiac dumped their A-cars (Celebrity, 6000) almost immediately, allowing the W's to replace them, but curiously, Buick and Olds held onto their Century/Ciera. Probably because they were still strong sellers, and cash cows by that time, since the tooling and fixed costs had long since been amortized.

    As for the Cavalier, my understanding is that the 1995 re-skin was actually pretty substantial. I think one major change was going from a live rear suspension to an independent rear suspension.

    Oh, another long-lived GM model was the N-body. It debuted in 1985 as the Grand Am/Calais/Somerset Regal, and was heavily based on the J-body (Cavalier), although it was a pretty substantial re-work. Chevy got their version (Corsica/Beretta) in 1987. It was heavily reworked in 1997 to become the Malibu, and then in 1999 the Grand Am/Alero adopted this platform.

    I think the '97-03 Malibu and '99+ Grand Am/Alero were designated something other than "N" body though. And IIRC, the Beretta/Corsica actually had a separate designation.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Oh, I'm old enough (about your age), so I recall those days fondly!
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,952
    That list looks like it just about covers it!

    Impala/Caprice: 1971, 77, 91 to 96. Revived 2000, redesigned 2006. Looking back, the difference today might not seem that substantial, but GM's B- and C-bodies went through a restyle in 1980 that, on average, jetissoned about 150-200 pounds of weight. In the case of the Chevy though, I wonder if a good deal of that was because they switched from a 250 inline six mated to a THM350 tranny, to a lighter 229 V-6 mated to a THM200C tranny? By 1980, I think the base weight of a V-6 Impala was around 3380 pounds! The re-skinning also resulted in a more sloping hood and a slightly higher rear deck, and smoother lines overall that supposedly improved aerodynamics by about 15%.

    I think if the recession had carried on much longer, the Impala/Caprice would have ended up being axed for 1982, and the Malibu would have been given more formal, expensive-looking styling and rebadged as Caprice. Pontiac actually did a move like this, dumping the big Catalina/Bonneville after 1981, and restyling the LeMans and renaming it Bonneville.

    I have an old Car & Driver from early 1982 that did a road test of a Caprice, and they mentioned that right around that time, big cars were starting to make a comeback (interesting; I didn't think that happened until 1983). Supposedly the Caprices were flying off the lot at close to sticker price, while the much more modern Celebrities needed hefty rebates to get moved. The article also mentioned that Chevy was thinking about dropping the B-body Caprice for '82, but judging from Pontiac's situation at the time, it's probably a good thing they didn't.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    I have no use for a Suburban but a lot of people do. In my estimation they can't be beat for what they do.

    Had one for many years and it served well for many true SUV "utility" functions. Mine had a 35 gallon gas tank. I would not want to do a $120+ fillup on it today.

    Don't think much difference in vehicle weight or initial cost between Tahoe vs Suburban and Suburban much more practical. But, the marketplace apparently buys more Tahoes than Suburbans.

    Maybe the "Suburban" name is the longest running continuous model that GM has.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,952
    Don't think much difference in vehicle weight or initial cost between Tahoe vs Suburban and Suburban much more practical. But, the marketplace apparently buys more Tahoes than Suburbans.

    Maybe a lot of people just don't want the extra bulk of a Suburban. I don't know the specs of the current models, but the previous Suburban was about 218" long, whereas the Tahoe/Yukon was around 196-199". In car terms, that's kinda like me ditching my '79 New Yorker (221") for my Intrepid (203")!
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Maybe a lot of people just don't want the extra bulk of a Suburban.

    I would agree with that. If you rarely haul long stuff or 4x8's, and don't have a lot of kids, then Tahoe is fine.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Heck you could line it up with the 67 Tempest I learned to drive on.

    Come on. You are really stretching it here. The only similarity is the arrow. And to me that is one sharp car I would love to add to my stable (convertible of course).

    G6 is a sharp car. It has a swoopy/snarky/sporty look to it that the camry/accord do not have. About the only thing close in the mid market is the mazda6.

    http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detail.aspx?id=000790-200606-000015
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    And IIRC, the Beretta/Corsica actually had a separate designation.

    L car but basically the same platform.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    About $3000 and 350#.

    For that you get the extra rear seat and a bunch of sheet metal. Most everyone does not need the extra space capacity and do not want the extra length due to garage and parking. The sub is a beast to park and the Tahoe is a lot easier.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,952
    I guess my real reason for not liking it is the fact that I never liked the classic Pontiac styling to begin with. And yet, somehow, I don't mind that you can identify a Buick from a mile away. There's a certain elegance to it.

    I really don't see much classic Pontiac style in any of the current lineup. IMO, most of what Pontiac has out there today looks like it was decended from the 1992 Grand Am, with the slanty headlights and under-sized split grille with the honeycomb pattern.

    The G6 really doesn't do much for me, but at the same time, I don't despise it. Something about its style though, makes it look smaller than it really is. IIRC, wheelbase is something like 112", and overall length is about 190"? Not exactly tiny. But for some reason, when I see them on the road, they just seem diminutive. The Aura has a much more substantial presence about it.

    For some odd reason though, I kinda like the G5. I think it's a nicer looking car than the Cobalt. But then, I always liked the Astre better than the Vega. :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    But for some reason, when I see them on the road, they just seem diminutive. The Aura has a much more substantial presence about it.

    higher window sills on the Aura.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,342
    It's what they do with the grill - that split thing that works better on most BMWs. That's all I meant.

    The G6 convertible really could appeal to me. Suddenly hardtop convertibles are becoming a big item. This is a trend I like!

    I would echo lemko's comments on Pontiac almost word for word.

    I would think Suburban would be as old a nameplate as is still around. My dad had a 49 Suburban for deliveries for his grocery store when I was a kid.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Are the new midsize crossovers all new? (VUE)

    I think the Antara/Vue is a new GMDAT design.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,952
    probably is the longest running continuous nameplate at this point. Well, except for 1943-45...

    Actually, I dunno. How long has Safeway used "Lucerne"? :shades:

    Otherwise, I'd guess "Grand Prix" is probably the next runner-up, dating back to 1962. "Impala" dates back to 1958, but was out of the loop from 1986-93 and 1997-99.

    When did Toyota first start using the "Corolla" nameplate?
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,342
    "IMO, most of what Pontiac has out there today looks like it was decended from the 1992 Grand Am, with the slanty headlights and under-sized split grille with the honeycomb pattern."

    Yeah, that was what I was getting at. That split grill thing goes way back. To me it emphasizes the nose too much.

    Like you, it's not like I hate the design - just not my cup of tea.

    Like lemko said, in earlier days you were really aware when you saw a Pontiac that this was a step up.

    I'm with you on the G5 as well.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    I have seen hundreds on the road and probably see 3-5 a day.

    Do you live at a Pontiac dealership? There is one old guy around here who has a G6 convertible, and I see an occasional G6 sedan every so often. I see five of the final-gen Bonnevilles for every G6.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    G6 is a sharp car. It has a swoopy/snarky/sporty look to it that the camry/accord do not have.

    The main thing I don't like about the G6 is its giant butt. The Malibu doesn't have that, but the G6's low front end and super-high back end make the sedan look like a door stop and the coupe look super awkward. I didn't like that high butt on the gen-2 Neon or the Echo, either.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,952
    There is one old guy around here who has a G6 convertible, and I see an occasional G6 sedan every so often. I see five of the final-gen Bonnevilles for every G6.

    I see tons of G6es myself, but there is an Enterprise lot just down the street. :shades: Just kidding. Actually, I don't see them that often. I'd say the Pontiac I see most often these days is probably the current Grand Prix. With the '67 Catalina and '76 LeMans being a close runner up. :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Lots of G6's here but the big news is the Lamdas. They are everywhere in all forms. Even a few Enclaves. But around here it is a family area and the Suburbans and Minivans are also all over. so, it does look like they are turning in the minivans and SUV's for the lamdas.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    The main thing I don't like about the G6 is its giant butt. The Malibu doesn't have that,...

    I've always felt that the Cobalt and G6 look very much alike and instead of keeping that Malibu design, Chevy should have gotten the G6. But then again I don't agree with a FWD Pontiac.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    GM could very well build Cobalts with navigation, big wheels (OK they have that here), 250hp engines, sport seats, HIDS, etc., but such cars would be $25k or more and none would sell.

    Someone did, at least most of it. It's called the Mazda3, and Mazda can't make enough of them to meet demand.

    What people really want is for GM/Ford to offer the goodies of Euro models but charge the same old US prices and that aint happening.

    Possibly true for some, and you're right, that in particular ain't gonna happen. But I think Mazda and some others have proven that people are willing to pay a premium for premium features in a compact vehicle. Now that GM has the Aveo to slot in below, for bargain-basement shoppers, it's certainly an option to content-up the Cobalt and increase the price. Small car interest has gone way up when gas prices did the same. How well has the CTS sold? Not exactly a large vehicle there. I'm thinking sales of the Astra will show what I'm talking about if they keep most of the features intact.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    The focus is being significantly upgraded for 2008. Really only the powertrain isnt being updated.

    Really it's a reskin...the chassis isn't being updated, ESC is being deleted, along with the hatch and wagon versions.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    No, I dont live at a Pontiac dealership but I do live in a state that isnt CA so I see far more domestic cars than many of the regulars here. The G6 sells around 10-12k units a month so its not a rare car by any stretch.

    Do you ever see fusions? Sonatas? Both are in the same sales league as the G6 (slightly higher, but close) and I see both of them pretty often.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    In your mind anything that isnt a top to bottom redesign is a "reskin". That is not accurate at all. A reskin is what Honda did with the 2006 Accord. It what BMW did with the 2008 5 series, just minor cosmetic changes. Under your definition the 2008 Malibu is just a reskin because its not on a new chassis.

    The Focus is about as new as a car can get without changing platforms. All new interior and exterior plus a new body style is not a reskin. The 2008 STS, that my friend is a reskin. Same applies to the 2006 Vue when they changed the front end and upgraded the interior.
This discussion has been closed.