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General Motors discussions

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  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    Was the car idling a long time in traffic? I've seen the needle move a little higher than normal if sitting for a long time in traffic in hot weather and resume its normal position after the car starts moving.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,070
    Was the car idling a long time in traffic? I've seen the needle move a little higher than normal if sitting for a long time in traffic in hot weather and resume its normal position after the car starts moving.

    Nah, this seemed more like the thermostat staying closed for too long, and then finallly opening up. I drove my uncle's car briefly on Saturday, and the gauge started to spike a bit high while the car was moving at around 50-55 mph. But then the gauge settled down to around mid-range, and never budged. Saturday was a pretty mild day though, temps in the mid-80's I'd guess.

    Now when it first overheated on my uncle, it was in really hot weather, and he was stuck in traffic, but I think there's a problem anyway, and those instances just exacerbated it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,070
    What year did Toyota change the taillights on the Camry so that the red part, rather than the white part, was in the middle? Was it '04 or '05? Anyway, I've seen a Camry of that vintage in the parking lot at work with the headliner pulling loose in the back. It really shocked me to see something that new starting to lose the headliner. It looked like the whole thing was coming down though, rather than the felt part separating from decaying foam, which is common as they age.

    With the exception of my '79 New Yorker, which I recently purchased, and my '89 Gran Fury, which I had from 1998-04, every car with a 1-piece felt headliner that I've owned started to lose it eventually. I suspect it's been replaced in my New Yorker, because the headliner almost looks TOO good, while the matching C-pillar trim is a bit faded and loose.

    We got rid of my grandmother's '85 LeSabre when it was almost 18 years old, and its headliner was just starting to sag down in some spots.

    Lemko, I know you garage that '89 Brougham, but do you think your '88 Park Ave spent most of its previous life garaged? I think that might play a major role in how long those headliners last.

    **edit: I forgot about my Intrepid. Its 1-piece headliner is still intact, but it's also "only" about 8 years old. I am kinda curious to see how it holds up, compared to the older cars, and see if they've really made improvements in those 1-piece headliners. I think my '80 Malibu's headliner started to pull loose when it was about 8.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    The only Japan make of car I ever owned which had a temp gauge move above nearly the half mark was the Dodge Stealth alias Mitsubishi. It was the thermostat. You can drive in 100* weather, bumper to bumper and Japan cars simple do not overheat, unless broken.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Did you check to signs of foot prints on the ceiling of the car? :blush:
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,070
    Did you check to signs of foot prints on the ceiling of the car?

    Nah, because by the time Grandma bought that LeSabre, she was 52 and Granddad was 59, and I think they had graduated to better places than the backseats of cars by then. :P

    I have to confess though, I ended up managing to get a footprint in the rear window of my '68 Dart! Didn't realize it was there until a couple weeks later when it showed up one damp morning when the windows were foggy... :surprise:
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    cooterbfd,

    All the new gen Lexus that are recently re-modeled (IS & GS in 06', ES & LS in 07') are on new platforms.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    Not sure about the Camry as the last time I seriously looked at one was in March 2001 when my girlfriend and I foolishly walked into the Toyota shark tank. Back then the taillights were mostly red and had sort of a sunburst pattern molded into the inside.

    Not sure about how the Park Ave lived before I got it. All I know is that I got it at a repair shop in NE Philly and it belonged to the shop owner's brother from Lancaster who passed on a few months prior. Right now, it sits out in front of my house which is near an arterial street. I haven't noticed any deterioration of the headliner over the past few years though the paint on top looks bad. The Brougham has been garaged its entire life with a cover over it for good measure. I've heard stories where guys would keep cars garaged, but the part of the car that faced the garage window(s) would fade if the car was uncovered.
  • chuckhoychuckhoy Posts: 420
    andres3 is the "Mirror Mirror" version of andre1969 to all you Trekkies out there.

    Does he have a goatee too?
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    If it was a dark red metalic, the paint on the top would have been looking real bad in about three years time. At least the '87.

    Interesting that the new Lucerne ride on the platform of some pretty old cars. And DTS is not one of them. It appears to be a relative of the old cars we had, or should I say I traded away in 1990 and you own today. If you love your car, it is still available as a Lucerne. Same engine and all ! The LaCrosse styling fell victim to the Taurus like front (this is what others say). I can see what they are speaking of to a degree, but really the LaCrosse is not a bad looking traditional Buick. I am thinking perhaps trim a little front overhang off and do something different with the head lamps is all which may be required. Looks like the 2010 model gets an Epsilon II platform. Is that one wider? The Epsilon cars are like the Aura. Is it true that Lucerne is going RWD? Perhaps it is time to come up with two new names, as these will have no relationship to the original cars.

    Looks like the new cars are coming to show rooms in 2009. Hopefully, for the sake of GM and everyone involved, this is not too late.

    Loren
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    Loren, I believe the Lesabre, Park Ave, and Deville all share the same BASIC underpinnings, therefore the Lucerne and DTS are still sister ships.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    I noticed MSN autos has their own reliability study:

    http://autos.msn.com/home/reliability_ratings.aspx

    and who they partner with:

    http://autos.msn.com/home/reliability_ratingsinfo.aspx

    and a sample of their charts (I'll use my '04 Rainier as an example):

    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Reliability.aspx?year=2004&make=Buick&model=Ra- - inier

    I like how the explain exactly WHAT problems are encountered, how much the parts are and an estimated labor price. ANy thoughts????
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I kinda liked that minimalist / Euro look of the old DeVille DTS, before the current change. The new look I am sure has more eye grab appeal. I sat in a few of the older cars at the Caddy dealership and found the seats did not fit my lower back at all. Well, a couple were better, as they offered lower lumbar control seats. The cars with a really good price tag, must all have been rental returns. I think I read that on one of the cars. It was like the seat caved inward instead of meeting up with the back. Those will lumbar are not too bad. The SLS on the lot seats did feel the best, so I test drove one of those. And I drove a couple of CTS cars. Both cars are OK in their own way. Still wondering how anyone could live with the DeVille seating. Why would the seats be poorer than the cheapest seats available. You name it, any econo car seat has more support. The car seems pretty good in other respects, but I would now avoid renting one, unless the new DTS has rid themselves of such humble seating. The new looks should have improved sales, but once again, I am a sucker for some of those minimalist looks. - Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I have posted some of those on various cars in the past. Pretty good service they provide! Consumer Guide has some good data too. Then there is your favorite C____
    doh, I can't say that here, I'll be voted off the island.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    What is really good is that they point out which engine is the culprit, like the 3.8V6 instead of the 4.6V6 Mustang, or vice versa, for any given year(s). Calif. is now at around $85 for labor, so sites like Consumer Guide, when using say $65 an hour, or whatever it is, have to be adjusted upwards. Something like a transmission is way expensive in CA to replace, especially on foreign cars. The tranny repair would be quite expensive on my Accord, so it may be wise to extend the warranty if keeping her past the 60k mark. But it is all in the odds. Live, the ultimate gamble.
    Loren
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    I find MSN autos reliablity information to be tremendously inaccurate and uninformed. They are way too generous to the worst autos ever made in the history of the world.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    Of course, anything that doesn't kiss the [non-permissible content removed] of your Japanese gods isn't up to spec.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,070
    Actually, the Lucerne/DTS are on a totally different platform from the old Electra/98 of days gone by. The alphabet soup does get a bit confusing, though, since GM ran some platforms concurrently and some models switched to the better platform sooner than others.

    Anyway, the first FWD 98/Electra/DeVille, which debuted in 1985, was on the corporate "C" body. The C-body used to be an extra-large RWD car, but Buick/Olds dropped theirs and the one holdout, the Fleetwood Brougham, was re-designated as the D-body.

    For 1986, the LeSabre/88 downsized to what was called the "H" body, but it was basically just the C-body with a slightly more rakish roofline, a bit less rear seat legroom, and a bit more trunk space. Essentially, they moved the rear seat forward slightly. The Bonneville joined the H-body lineup for 1987.

    For 1989, the Cadillac C-bodies were heavily modified, becoming larger and more impressive looking. The Electra were moved to the updated version of the C-body for 1991, and the Electra was renamed Park Ave. It was a good move for Buick, but the '91 Olds 98 didn't do too well. The H-body was redone for 1992, updating the LeSabre/88/Bonneville.

    Then, for 1995, the new G-body debuted, as the Aurora and Riviera. It was different from the C/H body, and much stiffer and stronger. Better put together in general. The FWD DeVille/Fleetwood was redesigned for 1994, but I can't remember if it stayed on the C-body or was considered a G, as well. The Park Ave was redesigned and moved to the G-body for 1997, while the 98 was dropped.

    Then, in 2000, the LeSabre/Bonneville were moved to an updated version of the G-body, and the Aurora joined them late, as a 2001 model. The DeVille was also redesigned for 2000, and if the '94-99 hadn't been on the G-body, it certainly was by this time. The only other remaining H-body, the Olds 88, was dropped, replaced by the V-6 version of the Aurora. At some point in time, the Seville was moved to the G-body as well. Maybe for 2000?

    Over time, interest in big cars, even these downsized models that would have been almost compact in the 1970's, continued to wane, so GM pared back their once broad lineup. The Aurora was discontinued as Oldsmobile folded. The Bonneville was dropped, with no direct replacement, although the G8 is supposed to correct that, I guess. The Seville was replaced by the RWD SLS/STS. And the LeSabre and Park Ave were both replaced by the Lucerne in varying trim levels. And the DeVille was redesigned and renamed DTS.

    So I guess you can trace the Lucerne/DTS back to the 1995 Riviera/Aurora, and possibly the 1994 DeVille. But they're more substantial than just a facelift. They're probably more like comparing a 2007 Crown Vic/Grand Marquis to a 1979 LTD/Marquis. It's the same basic platform, but it's evolved enough over the years that most likely, not too many pieces are carried over, and its been modified heavily over the years.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    If I may add:

    The 92 Seville/Eldorado bodies were upgraded and based on the deVille platform, but upgraded. Cadillac would have liked the Seville to get the new G-body (or Aurora body), but it was not going to be ready before 1994. So, for the 1994 model year, the body upgrades that were used on the Seville were added to the Deville and I think the FWD Fleetwood expired. The 2000 Deville was the G-body. The 1998 Seville was also G-body.

    I think that it is worth pointing out that there were lower end G-bodies, like the LeSabre/Bonneville, and upper end G-bodies like the Seville. The Seville came with more sound proofing, like double gaskets around the doors, which really quiet the interior down.

    The current Lucerne/DTS are upgraded G-bodies compared with the previous generation Deville. It is probably an excellent FWD platform, but I really like my SRX, and I do not think the DTS is anything like the SRX.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "What year did Toyota change the taillights on the Camry so that the red part, rather than the white part, was in the middle? Was it '04 or '05?"

    The red part of the tailight was in the middle starting with the 05 model year Camry.
  • carguy58carguy58 Posts: 2,303
    "The FWD DeVille/Fleetwood was redesigned for 1994, but I can't remember if it stayed on the C-body or was considered a G, as well. The Park Ave was redesigned and moved to the G-body for 1997, while the 98 was dropped."

    Questions about the Caddy Fleetwood? What year did Gm stop making the Fleetwood for their Caddy line and what did the Fleetwood compete with in its respective segment? Was the Fleetwood a full size car like the DTS is now? What was the last mode lyear for the Fleetwood like 1997?

    "The Bonneville joined the H-body lineup for 1987."

    So that particular generation of Boneville ran from the 1987 MY-1991 MY till a new Boneville came out for the 92MY?

    What abou the W-Body? Didn't the late 90's Grand Prix(97-03) use the W-Body along with the Buick Regal and maybe the Chevy Monte Carlo(95-99 model or 00-06 model?)
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    FWD Fleetwood ended in '91, RWD Fleetwood ran '92-'96
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Toyotas aren't perfect; however.....

    My Escalade blew out an Air Conditioning Compressor Sunday while I was leisurely driving through my neighborhood....

    My Lexus remains flawless so far.

    There you go. ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,070
    Questions about the Caddy Fleetwood? What year did Gm stop making the Fleetwood for their Caddy line and what did the Fleetwood compete with in its respective segment? Was the Fleetwood a full size car like the DTS is now? What was the last mode lyear for the Fleetwood like 1997?

    Cadillac got a bit wishy-washy with the Fleetwood name over the years, too. Once upon a time, it was actually a larger car than the Deville, sort of a half-step between the more mass-produced Caddies and the factory limos. In 1977, when they downsized, Fleetwoods and DeVilles rode the same wheelbase, but the Fleetwood was trimmed out better, had a thicker padded vinyl roof with a tiny limousine style rear window, etc.

    This carried over to the shrunken 1985 FWD models. But then, at the last minute, Cadillac decided to hold onto the old, big RWD model. So they called the little ones "Fleetwood" and the big ones "Fleetwood Brougham". Then, from 1990-92, according to my old car book at least, the big one was just called "Brougham". Lemko, if you're reading this, is your 89 a Fleetwood Brougham or just a Brougham? My book could be wrong. For 1993, it was restyled to the aero Caprice/Roadmaster design, and called Fleetwood, where it carried out until the end in 1996.

    These big Broughams competed most directly with the Lincoln Town Car. The Town Car usually outsold it by a wide margin, but Cadillac probably kept production low on purpose. These things were dinosaurs technologically, using carburetors right up through 1990 atop an engine that had its roots in the 1949 Oldsmobile "Rocket", and a frame that can be traced back at least to 1977 (I have my suspicions that GM's downsized big cars are actually based loosely on the '73-77 intermediates, as the frames are very similar, and so are some suspension components). Cadillac and GM would have rather its customers bought a more fuel-efficient FWD DeVille, and tried to herd most buyers that way, but the Brougham stuck around for the traditional Cadillac faithful.

    As for the FWD DeVille, size-wize, it really never had any direct competition from Lincoln, but it was priced to compete with the Town Car. The FWD Fleetwood models were priced higher, most likely to compete with the high-end designer series editions of the Town Car. The FWD Fleetwoods were finally dropped after 1992, although there was a model called the Sixty Special that carried over until 1993.

    I dunno how popular the FWD Fleetwood models were, as my book lumps their production in with the FWD DeVille models. Basically, from 1985 onward, my book just treats them as a trim package for the DeVille.

    So that particular generation of Boneville ran from the 1987 MY-1991 MY till a new Boneville came out for the 92MY?

    Yup, that generation of FWD Bonneville ran from 1987-91. The Bonneville joined the H-body platform a year after the LeSabre/88. At Pontiac, it sort of killed two possums with one rock, replacing both the full-sized Parisienne and midsized Bonneville at the same time. At the time, it was probably the sportiest full-sized car Detroit had offered in a long, long time. Although considered full-sized, it was actually a bit smaller than the midsized 1986 Bonneville it replaced. A bit bigger inside, though.

    What abou the W-Body? Didn't the late 90's Grand Prix(97-03) use the W-Body along with the Buick Regal and maybe the Chevy Monte Carlo(95-99 model or 00-06 model?)

    The W-body was another GM model that had a long, muddled existence. It initially debuted in 1988 as the GM10, and was intially offered only in coupe form, as the Grand Prix, Regal, and Cutlass Supreme. GM sort of dropped the ball with these, as the personal luxury coupe market was fast drying up. GM probably began designing these things in 1984, back when coupes, especially the Cutlass and Regal, were still hot sellers. Initially, the little N-body Grand Am/Somerset Regal/Calais, which debuted in 1985, were supposed to be the new personal luxury coupes. Design work on them probably began in late 1981/early 1982, when everybody thought that fuel would be scarce and $3.00 per gallon. But suddenly it was flowing again and got cheap really quickly, so GM decided to keep its old coupes around, and push these N-bodies as sort of a BMW 3-series contender.

    Anyway, by 1988, Ford pretty much wowed everybody with the Taurus, and coupes weren't where it was at, so the GM-10 trio didn't do so hot. Maybe 100-120K units apiece that first year. By 1990, GM finally got around to offering a 4-door model, and that's when the Chevy Lumina, available in coupe or sedan form, finally hit the market. So GM was 4 years behind the Taurus, and it sort of showed.

    I'm not sure exactly when they started calling these things the W-body, but the Lumina was redesigned for 1995, and improved substantially, and the coupe version was now called Monte Carlo. This may have been the first use of the W-body designation. The improved Century/Regal/Grand Prix came in 1997. The Grand Prix kept a coupe model around, but the Regal coupe was dropped. The Century had actually been on the old A-body (Celebrity) platform through 1996, so this was the first time it joined the W-body lineup.

    Olds wasn't ready yet with the Intrigue, so for 1997 the Cutlass Supreme stayed on, in coupe/sedan form. The Intrigue finally came out for 1998, and the Cutlass Supreme was dropped.

    The Grand Prix was modified for 2004, on an improved version of the W-body, and the coupe was dropped. By this time, GM started paying more attention to build quality. They may have still been using too much hard plastic, but they were putting more effort into making sure that panels lined up properly, gaps were even and tight, trim pieces didn't feel like they were going to fall off, etc. For 2005 the LaCrosse graduated the the improved W-body, replacing both the Century/Regal. And for 2006, the Impala/Monte Carlo were upgraded in a similar fashion.

    Hope that wasn't too long/boring of a read. :P
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Thanks - information overload! You did a lot of work for that post. I was just looking at link where is mentioned all those cars of the past. So there are many updates. Sort of an evolution more than a revolution. I am thinking the big date is set for 2009 when the RWD and New stuff hits the show room. Sort of a do or die year. All the labor talks should be over, the recession hopefully over, and perhaps a better gripe on costs of operation over all. The 2009-10 should be interesting, shall we say exciting, and possibly the real GM Revolution. Possibly it would be better stated as GM An American Revivification.

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Some years ago, Pontiac had a good look with the Grand Prix GTP. Now they seem to be boxed out more and well, just not as smooth a flowing lines as the earlier renditions.

    The HHR is a pretty good NEW car by GM. If it only was out a few years earlier it would have had more splash when announced. Seems like a pretty good value, and is a versatile little car. It doesn't look cheap or econo, yet gets decent gas mileage and is not too expensive to buy new. Now redo the small truck -- rename it and use one for both divisions, with GMC getting the heavy duty HD one.

    Bringing the Astra to America seems like a good move. It may spark more interest from the young buyers which may then choose to upgrade within the Saturn/Opel family to the Aura in a few years. Actually, if they have the souped up versions of the Astra it may draw some people in to Saturn as a more hip car store, and they actually consider the extra bucks to go to the XR Aura -- who knows, possibly a close price as your add to the Astra as a Redline, I believe they call'em.
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Wow, gone for the weekend and nothing discussed on how GM is on the offensive. Just my xxx is bigger than your xxxx. My brothers friend had no problems in his xxx and my sisters girlfriend had no problem with her xxx.

    But it looks like the domestics seem to be turning the perception aroung while the imports from Japan seem to be losing steam and going the wrong way.

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070814/AUTO01/708140387/1148-

    I will say though that the numbers are pretty close. And again, more proof, that cars are getting pretty much the same scores for reliability and quality.

    Americans' satisfaction with domestic vehicle brands increased in the second quarter of this year, while contentment with all but two Asian nameplates dropped from a year ago, according to the University of Michigan's Consumer Satisfaction Index, released today.

    The study is the latest sign that Detroit's carmakers are gradually gaining ground with U.S. consumers who have long believed that Asian-made cars and trucks are better and more reliable than homegrown models in such measures as quality and reliability.

    Within the auto industry, the numbers are improving as satisfaction with American brands is tied more to vehicle reliability than cheap pricing, which is a change from past years, Fornell said.

    "It used to be that whenever customer satisfaction improved in Detroit, it was because of a price discount," he said. "Now it comes from quality, which is a much more sustainable path to be on."

    Several brands owned by Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. sharply improved their rankings, while the Toyota, Honda and Nissan nameplates all declined. The only Asian brands that gained ground were South Korea's Kia and Lexus, Toyota Motor Corp.'s premium marque, which took the top spot.

    The gap between the highest- and lowest-performing brands has been cut from 18 points to 12 points since 1994.


    And for the last bunch of years:

    http://www.theacsi.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=147&Itemid=155&- i=Automobiles+%26+Light+Vehicles
  • lweisslweiss Posts: 342
    I still maintain that GM will be lucky to hang on to a 22% market share, and not have it go to 15% (as it is in the big East Coast city where I live).

    GM's decline started years ago when they considered small cars to be losers- "rich mix" for the big cars is what they were after. But those people driving the Honda Civics and Volkwagen Beetles in the 1970's are buying the Lexus and BMW's today. My sister (now 50 years old) is an example- here are the cars that she's had:

    1981 Toyota Tercel
    1986 Toyota Camry
    1992 Toyota Camry
    2000 Volvo S-80
    2007 Acura RX

    Would she ever consider a GM car with all of the great experiences she's had with other brands- probably not. GM's work is cut out for them to win back customers like that. At least in North America, they have their work cut out for them. Best of luck, I have my doubts.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "I'm sure there were CR readers with a bad Camry, but for everyone of those, there might have been 100,000 that had no issues. It's the opposite for the domestics, unfortunately. It's hard to find someone that has had a good experience with every domestic car they have owned (unless they have only gotten trucks or Buick/Cadillacs). "

    To make a statement like that shows you are not reading posts here in this forum. There are plenty of people who have had good experiences with domestics. To suggest that people keep buying domestic after enduring crappy quality is an insult.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Would she ever consider a GM car with all of the great experiences she's had with other brands- probably not. GM's work is cut out for them to win back customers like that. At least in North America, they have their work cut out for them. Best of luck, I have my doubts. "

    GM is never going to convince most people like your sister to buy their vehicles because the average import owner is totally ignorant of current quality rankings and refuses to believe that most cars are about equal in reliability in 2007. GM's hope is not with 50 year olds who have been owning foreign cars for 30 years. Their hope is with younger people and immigrants and others who do not have their minds made up. I assure you, the young people watching Transformers seemed to have no issue with GM when they applauded the appearance of the 2009 Camaro. People keep complaining about how long its taking for the car to come out but neglect to understand many young people anticipating that car cant afford it now or cant even drive. The demand for the camaro isnt just going to be driven by impatient 50 somethings, its also lusted after by 18 year olds and 25 year olds who have plenty of time on their hands and may not even be ready for a purchase until 2009 or later.
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