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Comments
BTW, do you believe in a person named God (Santa Claus for grownups)? :P
And nobody said that Ford would use a $25,000 mustang platform on a $50,000 lincoln sedan. You can engineer multiple versions of a platform (e.g. using aluminum suspension pieces on the high end version and steel on the lower end version). You can also change the dimensions to a certain degree. As long as the platform has the correct drivetrain configuration and is stiff enough then it can be adapted to multiple uses without compromising them too much.
Why don't you just wait and see the end product before passing judgement?
Given you have a Bentley (and seem ok that it issued from a modified platform shared with VW and Audi), why are you even worrying about purchasing a future Lincoln?
In any event, you proved or at least conceded my point: platforms CAN be shared among quality vehicles at many different price points. You have been insisting that they cannot.
I never said Lincoln had a good line-up now, or even anything stellar coming down the pike. I said they could start with a quality platform, whether shared with other models elsewhere in the world (or not), and build a world class vehicle. Of course they can continue to design and build something that doesn't measure up (as they have done in recent years). But it will not be because the platform is shared, and your Continental GT proves that. Have a nice day.
The only thing missing is 'faster', then their mantra would be the same as the prior (disgraced) NASA head, Dan Goldin, whose faster better cheaper mantra was in effect for a couple of space probes that disappeared or crashed going to Mars and of course the disaster of the shuttle that burned up on reentry.
"They have the engineering skill to build a world class sedan.look at the Ford GT"
I'm not so sure they do anymore. They fired, laid off and gave packages to so many people now it's a wonder there's anyone left to turn off the lights. And, BTW, the GT is most certainly NOT a sedan. And it's not a good example for anything except Ford's ability to waste money frivolously on things like a few GTs but then they cant keep up their actual world class sedan the LS cause it costs too much or something. Where the F were their priorities?
"I would be willing to spend over 70 or 80 thousand for a premium Lincoln if it were more than a high priced Ford."
There was and could now be a vehicle for well under $50K, probably starting under $40k, that would be just that - sharing little with Ford, a lot with Jaguar. But alas, that's not meant to be. Lincolns from here on WILL BE glorified Fords and/or glorified Aussie Fords. That's it. Look elsewhere for something special cause Ford aint gonna build it. Not now, not ever probably.
The LS had fully independent anti-dive aluminum suspension on all 4 wheels. The design was derived from Formula 1. But that''s history. It'll be interesting to see if their new Aussie-American RWD latform has independent rear suspension. They were too d*mned CHEAP to do that for the Mustang.
OMG! How could I have missed that?!? Link?
What a perfectly apropos reference -- both those companies are either gone completely or shadows of their former selves. It's a trifecta once Lincoln is put in the mix.
If "big V8" means the same 4.2L engines found in the S-type/XF then yes.
But again I have to ask - why would Ford use a platform from a company that they're in the process of selling?
Cadillac will not be very successful with a $100K+ vehicle. They don't even have a competitive $60,000 sedan yet.
People complain about Lincoln not having a RWD platform capable of using large V8 engines. Now they're designing one that can do just that and just because it's being jointly engineered with Ford of Australia it's predicted to be a total failure.
In case Edward hasn't noticed - Ford is selling Jaguar so it would be stupid to start sharing a platform with Jag. Not to mention the fact that the current Jag platform can't fit even the current 4.6L V8, much less the new 5.0L V8. The new 5.0L V8 will provide more HP than the SC 4.2L Jag V8 at probably half the cost.
If you want Lincoln to operate in a money is no object technology compeitition then you're dreaming. Maybe in a few years after Ford is back in the black and is making money but right now they need to sell more cars profitably.
Now, if I were a manufacturer of armored vehicles, they'd be great spokespeople.
"Hi, I'm the CEO of a major corporation that just outsourced all its manufacturing to China, eliminated 300,000 American jobs and collected a handsome $3 Billion bonus! I've eliminated or reduced healthcare to the remainder of my employees, slashed their wages, and polluted the environment to the point that I've rendered the landscape uninhabitable. Everybody wants to kill me, but I feel safe in my armored bullet-proof, bomb proof, chemical and biological agent-proof limousine customized by Lem-Co!"
I guess that's why it won it's very first Grand Am Cup back in 2005 - on a road course, with a live axle. Meanwhile the first CTS-V had so much wheel hop on launch it was comical.
And I'm not saying that a Lincoln sedan should have a live axle - it shouldn't, but you can't say the Mustang is a poor handler because of it.
The XJ as presently configured will not handle anything larger than the 4.2 engine. A RWD Lincoln sedan of that stature will need to be able to offer the 5.0 liter.
Moreover, the XJ architecture is all-aluminum and cannot be shared with a steel car as the Audi A8 platform can.
The 2010 XJ will not have an all new platform. It will have all new body styling and other upgrades to make it more competitive (hopefully). The new platform is several more years down the road, if Jag makes it that long. Rumor has it that Tata is really only interested in Land Rover, so Jag could be spun off or killed soon after the purchase, unless there is a miraculous turnaround in sales.
Chrysler still is in major financial doo-doo. They may have some decent designs (and I still like the 300 a lot), but their quality and reliability are not up to par, and their interiors suck. The Sebring and Avenger are mediocre to awful and the same can be said for the Calibur. They need more than the new Journey to goose their sales. Magnum is dead, Pacifica is dead, PT Cruiser close to dead.
The comparable Ford products to Malibu/Camry/Accord are the Fusion and Milan. The new Taurus is a full sized car and like the XJ would be quite competitive in its class, except for (like the current XJ) the dowdy styling.
You are wrong about the Mustang's handling. But then comparing a Cobra (heavier four place coupe) to the lighter 2 seater Corvette is apples and oranges. Putting the Challenger (and Camaro if it ever gets here) up against the Mustang will be a more level field.
I do have trouble understanding your point. Your scattershot approach is all over the place, as if all you want to do is throw enough mud to prove exactly what? That Lincoln is in trouble? Duh.
Do not agree with you on this one. Camry Solara and Accord coupe are not supeior to Mustang on slalom course. I am sure 100% that Mustang beats Solara.
BTW Tata shareholders are very unhappy about purchase. They think Tata is wasting money and should better spend limited resourses on core business. It may happen that they would soon kill Jaguar or sell it to private equity. Or may be will not buy at all - 2 bnln $$ is a lot even for Tata.
Of course it was modified, but it still used the solid rear axle. And it was competing against IRS cars that had also been race modified. You said it couldn't slalom because it had a SRA and that's a bunch of hogwash.
No, that's a special edition of a $32,000 car. How can you take a platform built for a $32,000 car (that's the base price of the CTS) and put it on a $62,000 car? Didn't you just say that wouldn't work? So, which is it?
Yeah, we all saw Mad Max.
"Remember we're talking about a new platform being engineered specifically for a new Lincoln lineup - they're not taking an existing platform and using it as is."
Sometimes I cant believe my eyes here. So you're telling us that Ford is spending a ton of money to develop a new RWD platform JUST FOR LINCOLN? (Aside - really? and how many of these RWD cars will Lincoln have to sell to amortize these costs?) And Lincoln will use it for a car with a BIG V8??? Perhaps you didnt get the memo but there's this thing called CAFE and it's going up to 35MPG in a few years and maybe over 40MPG in California and other states and maybe both will go much higher after one of the two business hating, SUV hating GLobal Warming believing demo-commies gets elected this year. But I digress.
And this is being done while FORD IS TOUTING their new Eco-boost twin turbo engines that they're gonna use in everything to save gas because of the aforementioned CAFE? AND they decided NOT to use a V8 in their new 'flagship' the emm kay essssss for similar reasons? But now in this climate they just gotta have a big Lincoln with a big V8 while everyone else is downsizing?
And of course TO TOP IT ALL OFF, you say this while all the time THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE OF THE WORLD'S BEST PLATFORMS CALLED DEW-98 into which they could slide one of these Eco-Boost engines and have a CTS/BMW competitor next Tuesday? With the development costs already paid? THIS MAKES SENSE TO YOU? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
And then you say "In case Edward hasn't noticed - Ford is selling Jaguar so it would be stupid to start sharing a platform with Jag." (talking about the XJ platform here but no matter.) Well, in case YOU haven't noticed FORD has said it is planning to SELL VOLVO this summer, so I'll turn your logic on you and ask what sense it makes to share a platform with Volvo? (For the casual reader, 1/2 of today's "Ford" and "Mercurys" and "Lincolns" are riding on OLD Volvo platforms, the other half are riding on OLD Mazda platforms. Ford hasn't announced they're selling Mazda yet - CAUSE THEY DON'T OWN IT.
I'm yelling because it's getting SO DEEP in here.
Line forms at the rear for your Mazda-Lincoln or Volvo-Lincoln or Falcon-Lincoln. Just dont EVER look for a Jaguar-Lincoln again. A car like that is TOO GOOD for the Ford Motor Company.
What they are NOT doing is taking a platform that was designed for a $25,000 car only and trying to use it on a $50,000 Lincoln. That's the difference.
You don't hear Ford developing any NEW platforms with Volvo right now, do you? That would be stupid. D3 is now a Ford platform - the engineering is done and selling Volvo now won't affect that. But developing a brand new platform with a brand you're planning to sell would be stupid.
If the MKS could use the new 5.0L engine then it would have one - probably as a low volume special edition. That engine will make close to 400 hp naturally aspirated. And it will be built in house and be much cheaper than an outsourced, low volume Yamaha V8 that only makes 315 hp. Ecoboost makes sense in the MKS and will probably be an option on larger Lincolns but that doesn't mean the public doesn't want a traditional large V8 as well.
I'm tired of people complaining that Ford is making FWD V6 Lincolns and then complaining again when Ford says they're doing RWD V8 Lincolns. Pick a side and stick with it.
Tell me is Cadillac a better car than the present day Lincolns? Yes. And no one here has so far claimed otherwise. (Was your question meant to be rhetorical, or don't you know?)
Chevy had their Camarro at the Auto show that will be released in late spring to early summer. Nope. The Camaro won't be on sale until spring of 09.
We will see when it is put through a road test comparing it to it new rivals by one of the auto magazines. Exactly what I said in an earlier post.
Is the Fusion a better car than the Accord or Camry. I would say no.
And the Ford 500/ Taurus is really an eye graber. I think you mean "grabber" but never mind. No one here thinks the Taurus is an eye grabber. That is its most obvious problem.
Lincoln is not going to put a V8 into the MKR it s designed for a direct injection twin turbo V6. If you don't believe me look at the cars specs. You are referring to the one-off show car. Ford is not going to build that, so its specifications do not apply to the proposed RWD V8 sedan. However, what would be wrong with a 415 hp TT V6???
Wait till Tata gets its hands on Land Rover only to discover that it needs a quality boost. I don't think that is news to Tata.
And you point is?
The Crown Vic's present platform (dating back to 1978, updated in 1991 with only minor tweaks since then) was not designed with the Town Car in mind. Though the platforms were related, the Town Car had significantly more interior length and width, up until 1998 when it was given its last completely new body. At that time, though no actual body panels were shared, Lincoln moved the TC into a closer relationship with the existing Crown Vic, adopting the same greenhouse tumble home angle, which slightly cut interior width. In any event, the Crown Vic was not designed with the TC in mind, even if they did end up as corporate twins.
The proposed RWD Lincoln is not first being designed as a Ford division car to be upgraded later to a Lincoln. If the Lincoln shares a platform with a Ford Interceptor, all the better for Ford and for the buying public. No one bitched about the Mark IV, Mark V and so on being diminished because the T-bird shared the platform (though there were many of us disappointed in that era to see the T-bird become such a big land barge).
What will be will be. Joe is really burned out on Lincoln and Ford, and I don't blame him. Others here, myself included, wonder if Lincoln will have the chance to do some of the things it will need to do in order to continue long term operations, and will be able to do them quickly enough. No one knows that answer, but time will tell. Platform sharing as you know is done all over the world and up and down car classes (e.g., by your definition, your Bentley is a VW).
Will they do the platform right? Recent past experience and Joe say no. I say I don't know, but I concede it is possible. But I have no idea what you are trying to say.
"You don't hear Ford developing any NEW platforms with Volvo right now, do you? That would be stupid. D3 is now a Ford platform - the engineering is done and selling Volvo now won't affect that. But developing a brand new platform with a brand you're planning to sell would be stupid. "
Exactly how is the above paragraph different if we substitute Jaguar for Volvo and DEW-98 for D3? The fact is that Ford has decided that DEW-98 is TOO GOOD for Lincoln, which will now share ALL it's platforms with "Ford", by which I mean Mazda, Volvo and Australia. Is this not correct? My point is, had Fomoco wanted to keep Lincoln competitive with the real car companies, they could have done with DEW-98 what they're doing with the Aussies except they could have done it 2-5 years ago and had a CTS beater on the street at the same time as the Jag XF. But NOOOOOOO ... they have decided that Lincoln is NOT WORTH that kind of investment. Isnt that correct? And by extension, I have made the same decision. Lincoln is no longer worth my investment. And I'll stay here and beat this freaking horse forever if I want since Lincoln made fools of folks like myself and cdpin and many more who gave up on the LS years ago. Imagine we thought Lincoln was gonna be a contenda. We bought in and Ford packed up and left us.
You were talking about quality, not performance. Why do you keep shifting the topic?
While Ford will have to wait a couple of years to have a platform that can rival todays Camry and Accord.
There is nothing wrong with the CD3 platform - quite the contrary. The Fusion offers AWD which Camry and Accord don't. The 2010 model is due out in December (that's 10 months, not 2 years) and will offer 6 speed transmissions, AWD, hybrid, a new 2.5L I4, more powerful 3.0L V6 with better mileage, a new interior with exterior tweaks plus a sport package with 3.5L V6. Quality is already best in class - no reason to think this revised model won't be 100% competitive with Malibu, Camry and Accord.
Sad, true & funny in the bargain.
I've finally mellowed a bit since coming to grips with having wasted the last 8 years of my automobile-owning life on my LS (so far as getting involved with a car/company with which I could develop a lasting relationship). That said, I'm still watching the train wreck cleanup effort that is today's Lincoln division.
Sad, interesting & funny in the bargain.
There's love, hate & indifference. I'm in the third mode, but it sounds like you're still in the second. In time. . .
If you look at a NASCAR rear suspension it is almost identical to the Mustang. It's the best SRA setup you can get right now. It sacrifices a little to IRS on uneven surfaces but it also has advantages in handling more power.
But I wasn't talking about NASCAR - they don't even use Mustang imitations. The Ford NASCAR car is a Fusion. I'm talking about the Grand-Am Cup where they use production based cars. The new Mustang was rolled off the truck with no advanced testing and won the first race back in 2005.
As for wheel hop - it's exactly what it sounds like. Under hard acceleration the rear wheels "hop", losing traction. It seems to be more common in IRS vehicles. The cause is not 100% clear - some say it's the suspension, others the tires or maybe the half-shafts. But several companies make kits for the 1st gen CTS-V to combat the issue. Do a google for "CTS-V wheel hop".
You walked right into that one. So let me get this straight - Cadillac can design a platform that can be used on a $32,000 sedan and a $62,000 sedan but Lincoln can't design one that can be used on a $25,000 vehicle and a $50,000 vehicle?
And while we're at it - what about the $45,000 Corvette and the $100,000 XLR? Aren't they on the same platform? They even share drivetrain components.
I'll even agree on this one - but it is close. The 2010 model with the new 2.5L I4 and 3.5L V6 and Hybrid will be very competitive if it gets the interior and exterior updates that are expected.
No one here thinks the Taurus is an eye grabber. That is its most obvious problem.
The 2010 Taurus is supposed to be just that - an eye grabber. There was a picture of Mulally in a Ford design studio with the Flex and in the background is a clay model of the 2010 Taurus (according to insiders). It's clear that they've totally changed the greenhouse - goodbye Audi. I think it will be as stunning as a Taurus can be. Too bad it didn't debut at Chicago as predicted - maybe we'll see it in New York.
Also what about the Quality of the Saturn Aura or Chevy Malibu as compared to the Fusion? Fusion quality is second to none. It is better than even the very good Saturn Aura. The Malibu is too new for proper comparison. It looks as if it will be able to rival Fusion quality. Time will tell.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really don't know anything about NASCAR. All NASCAR vehicles are the same underneath the skin - they all use 9" Ford rear ends, same transmissions, have purpose built tube frame chassis, RWD, Solid Rear Axle and a 350 inch pushrod V8 engine. To change a Fusion to a Camry all you do is replace the hood, fiberglass front end with stickers and swap the Ford pushrod 351 for a Toyota pushrod 351 engine. NASCAR hasn't raced a stock car in Sprint Cup for at least 20 or 30 years.
And as Gregg pointed out the Fusion has been beyond reproach from a quality standpoint - not only is it the highest quality Ford ever produced but it beat out the Camry V6 and tied the Camry I4 and Accord for best quality midsize sedan at Consumer Reports, which is quite a feat considering CR's past bias towards Toyota and Honda (not that most of that bias wasn't earned).
The Taurus is full sized and does not compete with the Camry and Accord.
The part you don't seem to understand is that Ford is a TOTALLY different company than it was even 3 years ago. Mark Fields was not responsible for the 2005 Five Hundred body which is still used by the 2008 Taurus. Mulally wasn't in charge back then, either. If it wasn't for those 2 we wouldn't even have a chance of Lincoln getting a new purpose built RWD platform. Even the MKS was designed and locked in before Fields - the only thing they had time to change was the grille.
Starting this year with the Flex and later this year you're starting to see what the NEW Ford is capable of. So far they have the right attitude and product plans (merge the CD3 and EUCD platforms, merge the NA and Euro Focus platforms, merge NA and Aussie RWD platforms, share more truck and SUV platforms, add new technology (MKS, Sync), add a new B car). The only question left is will they go far enough and will they execute on all those plans and can they keep the company together long enough for that to happen.