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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    Buicks were the preferred car of old Chinese royalty. It's seen as a traditional high end brand there.

    Huge population, huge corrupt public sector / obedient party member "middle class" and lots of sweatshop zillionaires with both public sector graft and party connections. Maybe a small part of the population, but 2% of 1.3 billion is a big market. Also a huge landmass, plenty of room for roads, and quick to build when safety and environmental issues are meaningless and labor is expendable.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think part of GM's strategy is to ultimately build many of their vehicles in China for export elsewhere, including the US. The problem may become that they will end up behind the proverbial eight ball again as Chinese economic changes are driving up costs there causing many other manufacturer's to look to go elsewhere in the next 5 or 10 years. GM has also formed strong technical links with a Chinese automotive manufacturer who will probably end up stealing their info and then using the corrupt Chinese government and phony legal system to steal the info and screw them over. Bottom line: US taxpayer bailout dollars being used to eventually move jobs overseas while GM mismanagement may be resurfacing???
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    4,012 - best sales month ever, outselling the enthusiast's darling ATS (I know, I know - some of it could be pent up demand that goes away in a month or two). Still a good start.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited May 2013
    Heck, the Chinese have built whole cities that are currently unoccupied:

    Mega Ghost Cities
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I keep reading that GM (mostly Buick) has been selling well in China...is that really true???

    Yep - the top selling model in 2011 was the Buick Excelle - a version of the Cruze with over 250K units sold. The Chevy Cruze was #3 with 220K sold. Foreign brands represent 9 of the top 10 models. Car sales in China topped over 18 million - the highest in the world.

    is that they live on bicycles, and that their roads are like the paths taken by our settlers with their Conestoga wagons...in other words, even if they buy the cars, do they have multi-lane roads to drive them???

    You are using old stereotypes of China. Depending on how it's calculated, cities such as Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin are in the top ten most populated cities in the world. They are urban with an urban lifestyle with an upwardly increase in wealth and spending power. Just like in America in the 20's, people are leaving the rural areas for better jobs in the cities.

    ...it took us many years for high-speed highways to be built, with a population from 100 to 200 million (back then, now 320 million)...

    We didn't have a government willing to spend whatever it takes to build the infrastructure to bring the nation from 3rd world to 1st world overnight. One can travel across China on highways. In fact Shanghai alone has 31 highways per wiki. Greater Shanghai has four ring roads.

    ...we invented the car and gasoline...where are their service stations, the car dealers, the tire shops, etc???

    Actually, we didn't invent the car - we just popularized it. As for the support system, it's located where ours is - along side the hundreds of thousands of miles of roads.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I think part of GM's strategy is to ultimately build many of their vehicles in China for export elsewhere, including the US.

    I see it more of GM investing in China like Toyota and Honda did in the United States 20 years ago. Build plants in the largest market in the world to support that market.

    Some day you will see more Chinese built vehicles sold in North America - Honda already sells a Chinese made Fit in Canada. But you will also see cars built in Germany, Korea, South Africa, India, et al. We live in a global market.

    But the cost of manufacturing in China is already going up. I was speaking with an business contact who told me his company was bringing production back from China to the US because the cost of labor and shipping was eroding the cost savings.

    GM has also formed strong technical links with a Chinese automotive manufacturer who will probably end up stealing their info and then using the corrupt Chinese government and phony legal system to steal the info and screw them over.

    GM has been building cars in China for almost 20 years. Yes, the Chinese are very good at copying. Yet they have been unable to copy well enough to design their own car that can compete outside of China.

    Bottom line: US taxpayer bailout dollars being used to eventually move jobs overseas while GM mismanagement may be resurfacing???

    Should they invest in plants outside the largest market in the world making cars that are too expensive to sell in that market? IMHO, that's not good business. I'm a for real GM shareholder and understand the need to be in that market. I would prefer that the Chinese innovation culture was more like ours but one has to deal with the climate that's current.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    My concern with GM in China is that they may be going too far "all in" compared to most other auto firms investing there. When you are dealing with the moral and ethical challenges in China, I can't help thinking GM is going to end up with short term gain, long term pain. Most companies are playing it over there like a poker game, but GM seems to be more like putting a bunch of money into lotto tickets. China could reform and if that happens, then GM would be the big winner - but I've got my doubts. This is a country that actively supports North Korea and Iran which is probably a reflection of it's own corruption.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    edited May 2013
    Too bad ideas like ethics don't really play into the business mindset, especially when dealing with our most favored "partner".

    China could reform, but it will take a bloodbath to make it happen.
  • Apparently you have not been to China recently. Although there are large swaths of countryside still undeveloped, the cities are well developed. Multi lane roads there are common. The new Shanghai makes many other cities book primitive by comparison. And GM sales three times as many Buicks in China as it does in the US.
  • Some pent-up demand, as you point out, has to be there, given all the hype and orders followed by the months long delay in getting sufficient cars to dealerships. Yes, let's see if Lincoln can sustain 4K sales of MKZ a month. Let's see if they can build on it, because that is still less than 50K a year, a level Lincoln used to see necessary to maintain a model (before the bottom fell out and realism took over).

    BTW, I don't think comparing MKZ and ATS sales means much. They are in different categories, the ATS being much smaller and aimed at a different audience. Further, ATS is a size class Cadillac has not tried to sell since the ill-fated Cimarron decades ago, and there is no pent-up demand for it, as it has been on sale since the second half of last year.

    Actually, neither are the CTS and MKZ exactly direct competitors, though closer than MKZ and ATS. The current lame duck CTS is six model years old, and the new one is almost here. It will remain RWD and will be bigger than the MKZ.

    MKZ does have to straddle some of the greater variety of Cadillacs until Lincoln has more new models on offer. The current MKS, MKT, MKX and Navi are all placeholders until new iron steps in, as none of these models can expect to increase their market share in their current forms. When it arrives, the MKC should bump overall Lincoln sales up. If they ever design an MKR sedan for real, that could also bump up Lincoln reputation.

    At some point, Lincoln will have to become a name in other markets, like Buick and Cadillac have already begun to be. After all, it is a world car market now, and the Ford brand is riding it. (So is Chevrolet.) Looking at sales in the US no longer tells the real story. Ford and GM are both bloody messes in western Europe, but are doing very well with sales in parts of Asia. Asia is where it is at right now, and Lincoln ain't there.
  • akratzerakratzer Member Posts: 4
    Ford execs need to look hard at Cadillac and BMW. Rear wheel drive is a traditional luxury car feature. And V8 engines are nice too. Lincoln needs to try something bold. What would make me buy a Lincoln would be a retro styled mid size sedan powered by the 5 litre Coyote engine. Perhaps even center opening (suicide) doors which would recall the '61 Continental and today's Rolls-Royce. And a classic sedan shape can have a good cd. Look at the success of the retro styled Mustang and Dodge Challenger. I'd buy a rwd, V8 Continental in a heartbeat. I've owned a '62, '63, and a '65 Continental. I loved them. They were just too big and heavy for today's market.
  • That might be a niche model, but for volume, V8s don't cut it anymore. BMW, Mercedes, even Jag and Land Rover are utilizing them less. Lincoln has to go where there are many customers.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    I received a direct mail offer from a Lincoln dealer in the San Diego area to purchase a new Lincoln at value pricing that Lincoln is presently offering on all models including the newly designed MKZ. That's on the mailer.
  • Yes, incentives are being used on the MKZ, which makes sense, given its botched introduction, and how late it is already in the 2013 model year. Had they been able to label it a 2014, things might have been different. But as it is, they are generating sales now.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The only reason ATS sales are being compared to MKZ sales is to respond to the folks who think Cadillac's strategy is far superior to the current Lincoln strategy because they're building performance vehicles that appeal to enthusiasts as opposed to more luxury oriented vehicles like Lincoln and Lexus.

    I think MKZ sales will level out around 3500/month which is a nice improvement over the old one and a step in the right direction. I don't really expect it to hit 50K/yr until it gets a styling refresh to bring it fully inline with Max's styling direction and it gets more Lincoln exclusive drivetrains and features and the dealer experience changes start showing up.

    MKC will be the real test with 100% Max styling and hopefully new features. I expect it to match SRX sales and will help a lot with Lincoln volume and profits.

    The new CTS will be larger and more expensive and that doesn't usually translate to more sales (maybe more profit per unit though).

    The question is whether the ATS/CTS strategy is going to result in increased sales or if it's just going to split Caddy's previous CTS sales between 2 vehicles on 2 platforms.
  • That is the question, but so far, Cadillac sales have been growing, a good sign for them. The CTS is in sore need of an update and will have one this year. The ATS is getting a coupe version which will attract a few more customers as well.

    I don't think anyone criticizes BMW for having a 3 series and a 5 series, or Mercedes having a C Class and E Class (and now CLA Class), or Audi having an A4 and an A6 (and soon A3 sedan), not to mention the small and medium Infinitys, the small and mid-size Lexus RWD models, the small and mid-size Acuras, and so on and so on. Jaguar is adding a sedan below the XF. Moving downmarket just a tad, Buick has enhanced its sales somewhat by having both the Verano and the Regal.

    Yes, in having more models, one sometimes does cannibalize some sales of the other. But if overall sales and market share (and showroom traffic) increase, it is often worth the trade-offs, or most companies would not be doing it. Profit after all is why they are in business, and making the best products gives one a better chance at good overall profits.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "The question is whether the ATS/CTS strategy is going to result in increased sales or if it's just going to split Caddy's previous CTS sales between 2 vehicles on 2 platforms."

    The first and current CTS generations used their own dedicated platforms, but the 2014 CTS will share its platform with the ATS.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Well that certainly helps. I knew they were sharing the platforms with Chevy but I thought it was 2 different platforms. Maybe GM is starting to get it.
  • Cadillac is temporarily sharing a platform with the 2014 Impala and the XTS. They also share the Escalade platform with Chevy, not unlike most every company that still makes a body on frame full-size SUV. The SRX however is not the same as the Equinox (which shares its architecture with the GMC Terrain). The CTS, CTS coupe, CTS wagon, ATS and coming large car (which will be the flagship, and probably the death knell for the XTS) share nothing with Chevy.

    Maybe GM is starting to get it? Get what? Ford's solution to re-making Lincoln?

    GM has spent a ton of money on Cadillac. To go back to dressed up Chevys at this point would make no sense. They have re-built some market share--not an easy task in this VERY competitive and crowded market. They have re-established some credibility. They now have a market in China and a beginning one elsewhere.

    This fight is not going to get any easier at all. Platform sharing can work, if the engineering and details are done with great care. So can FWD/AWD.

    But the market continues to demand greater exclusivity. That is one reason why VW uses completely different architecture for the Passat and CC and A4 (the A4 is engineered with the engine further back, like a RWD design). It could be coincidence of course, but Audi sales have grown remarkably since Audis have stopped looking like mainstream FWD models.

    Making excuses for Lincoln will not help them. This brand needs to pull out some stops, whether they share all platforms with Ford or not. I doubt that there is any cheap way anymore to gain purchase in a field of luxury brands that is light years better than it was just 10 years ago. Starting to get it? Let's see if Lincoln is starting to get it first.

    The MKZ will sell, as there is a market for Avalons and ES350s and Azeras. But these are not the cars that are garnering accolades and building the reputations of their brands. Lexus can cater to this crowd and make big bucks, because after all, they are Lexus, and in addition to the 350, they have many exclusive models as well.

    There is not much of a market remaining anymore for cars like the Taurus and Impala and and Lacrosse and XTS. As that market shrinks slowly, the slack is being taken up by mid-sizers, small CUVs and compact cars. GM sees the writing and that is why there will be a RWD full-size Cadillac and a RWD Buick Regal. I fear a re-designed MKS, even if not so tall and ungainly looking, will still not attain lots of sales, because FWD large cars in general are losing ground.

    The MKC will be coming into one of the market's current sweet spots. If it can catch a break, it may outsell the older SRX. But where are the innovative ideas that create market categories...past examples of Ford being many: Thunderbird (4 seater, and later 4 door), Mustang, Explorer, the Mark coupes, Navigator? The MKT debacle was about as bad a botch as the ovoidly weird 96 Taurus and the Edsel.

    Focus groups will often lead you astray. I've been in a few, and I cannot imagine how that data garners such importance, when studies show that people will say and do things in these conditions that do not translate at all to their behavior in the real world.

    The Taurus should stand as a ready and constant reminder to Ford how easy it is to botch a better idea. Or how easy it is to go from top to bottom because you think you understand what is going on when you really don't have a clue. They have managed to claw back some respectability to the Taurus name after so many years of mucking it up. But it is still stop-gap, and Ford knows the current Taurus could easily be a better machine than it it is.

    Transfer that to Lincoln. The MKZ will satisfy many customers but it will not change Lincoln's reputation. Subsequent iterations and products will have to do that. Maybe Lincoln is starting to get it?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    edited May 2013
    I guess you missed that the ATS platform will also be used for the Camaro and another Chevy car in addition to the CTS. Can you imagine the outcry if Ford tries to use the Mustang platform for a Lincoln flagship? Some will forgive it as long as it's RWD but others will say that Lincoln is an also-ran because it's not using bespoke platforms.

    You're putting too much importance on "reputation". The only thing Lincoln needs is good luxury vehicles that are nothing like Fords.

    And no - it doesn't make any difference if they start with a Caddy or a Chevy - platform sharing is platform sharing.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2013
    You just don't seem to get it, Allen, but that is ok. You apparently do not have any influence at Ford now.

    For pity's sake, I cannot imagine anyone would make an outcry if Ford used the Mustang chassis as a basis for a Lincoln model. People have been crying for that for years. And it would only improve the Mustang. Further, I don't think anyone would confuse a Camaro with a CTS, even when they eventually share some of their architecture. Same with Mustang and Lincoln.

    You say the darnedest things sometimes trying to illustrate your point that Lincoln is doing just fine now with their plans. Yes, in fact the only thing that Lincoln needs now is good luxury vehicles that are nothing like Fords. They do not have that now, and the MKZ is not yet an example of that.

    Reputation is important, and it is built. Lincoln squandered its reputation, and intends to build it back.

    If Lincoln could differentiate its vehicles from the Fords sharing the same architecture, as much as the ATS and 2014 CTS are differentiated from each other, that would be terrific. But even so I predict that if Lincoln survives, they eventually will have at least one model that Ford does not offer...unless of course it is related to the Mustang...in which case we will all cheer.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Excellent summary and commentary!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If the MKZ is a "tarted up Ford" then why wouldn't a mustang based Lincoln be the same? You're either sharing a platform or you're not.

    The MKZ is only about 80% of where Lincoln wants it and it needs to be. But even so it seems to be selling very well with minimal capital investment compared to what Cadillac has spent on the ATS and CTS to date. That's a win by any stretch of the imagination and it tells me that they're on the right track.

    What if the MKZ continues to outsell the ATS and CTS?
  • e_net_ridere_net_rider Member Posts: 1,380
    I got asked if I wanted to trade, after I was told they did not see a problem. And this was with another dealer after multiple issues with bad workmanship from the first and this problem likely evolving from bad service at previous. Not just me also. Grandson bought used truck with warranty. Transmission starting to slip, kept it nearly two weeks and then told him they did not see problem.
    I'm at this different dealer because previous worked on rear brakes and then it started veering to left with brake apply. Mechanic said he did not see problem. Service writer drove, said no problem. I showed him and told me I had to talk with service manager. Service manager drove and said not a problem, blamed it on road. Then they are testing on wrong road for all vehicles they take in. Luck happened, Lincoln repshowed up, he drove. Yes there is problem, but not brakes, must be alignment. All within green area except toe. They aligned and I paid. Still goes left with brake apply even though straight handling has improved a bit. NOTE: anytime I ask for align at tire shop they bump all settings toward nominal. Not this bunch of clowns and now my steering wheel is crooked. Also for any further work I need to take back to previous shop, the ones that resulted in hard pedal and weak brakes after working on front brakes. Service like this can kill you. Then I learn son-in-law is having issues with this dealer as well on a new powerstroke 4x4.
    These situations roll down hill from Ford so don't bye the buck passing. And if you've got some dream vehicle, you need to have someone else build.
    I told sales they were daft. You can not fix, why would I want another.
    Lincoln rep comment on first bunch of clowns, "they're withering on vine."
    I conclude FL is and so is the rest of Detroit.
  • Allen, you are incorrigible. I did not say the MKZ was a tarted up Ford.

    You also state that "you're either sharing a platform or you're not." Well, let's go back a few years to when you claimed that buyers could not tell that the Explorer and Mountaineer shared the same body. Well, I begged to differ on that, and I beg to differ on your black and white thinking now.

    The 2014 CTS and ATS will share a platform, but no dimensions. Different wheelbases, length, width and height. Two different sizes and classes. Yes, they share a platform, but not in the way Fusion and MKZ do.

    If the Mustang and a Lincoln sedan share a platform, you will also see completely different cars for different buyers. Ford will not put a Lincoln sedan on the same wheelbase and dimensions as a Mustang coupe.

    The VW Phaeton, Audi A8, Bentley Continental coupe and convertible, and Bentley Flying Spur sedan all share architecture. Nonetheless, they do not share dimensions or much of anything anyone can perceive. The A8 uses aluminum architecture. Yes, they all share some underpinnings, but they are not perceived to be related like for example the Sonata and Optima are (which incidentally don't even share a windshield).

    The next Camaro will be based on Cadillac architecture, not the other way around. The next Mustang could easily be based on Lincoln ideas of what that architecture should be. There is long precedent for that within Ford. The 1961 Lincoln was accompanied by the 1961-63 T-bird. The later Mark coupes were issued with luxury Thunderbirds.

    Even within Ford now, there is platform sharing that spawns some really different creatures: Taurus and Explorer, and Flex and MKT with a longer wheelbase. Setting aside that the MKT was not one of their better ideas, no one confuses it with a Taurus (or MKS).

    So you can do what Cadillac does at great expense and develop platforms that are RWD and not much shared, or you can use a good platform in many different and creative ways.

    Or you can do what Lincoln has been doing with MKS, MKX and MKZ and hope for the best, i.e., "what if the MKZ continues to outsell the ATS and CTS?" Stranger things have happened. (Witness the Camry still near the top of the mid-size charts, despite its excellent competition.) But it is not a good bet in this fiercely competitive premium market.

    I don't think many people notice at this point that the Fusion and MKZ do share a windshield, front door glass and all hard points. They did a good job differentiating the bodies. But I do hope this is the last time they cheap out details like that.

    Fords have gotten better, much, much better, and the performance and level of equipment you can get on a Fusion Titanium is little different from many MKZs. Ford has moved many of its models upmarket.

    I think that is why current Lincolns strike some people as Mercurys. They are not as different from Fords as when you compare a Malibu and a CTS. The difference is more like comparing a Malibu and a Regal, or an Impala and a Lacrosse.

    So there is platform sharing and platform sharing. Ford has already proven it can completely differentiate vehicles using the same architecture as a base. Heck, no one would ever think unless you knew that the previous Volvo S80 and Taurus shared architecture. Ford did it then (unfortunately, neither model for different reasons took the market by storm.)

    So, do it NOW, when you intend to offer a real premium car. Dedicated platform, shared platform, hybrid platform, who the hell cares if the resulting premium vehicle has its own personality, and even better can run with the best?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Once again you totally missed the point. First I was simply correcting your statement that ATS/CTS wasn't sharing a platform with Chevy. And if you read my earlier statement you'll see that I think platform sharing is actually good if executed directly. I never said that ATS/CTS platform sharing was bad. Quite the contrary - they should share a platform.

    However - using the same platform for the Camaro would either result in a less than perfect Caddy platform (if it's cheapened for the Camaro) or a far too expensive Camaro platform (if it's not cheapened). Both can work but there would have to be compromises somewhere and the same would apply to mustang/Lincoln.

    Personally I don't care about platform sharing as long as the vehicles are different enough and both are well executed. I was simply responding to those folks who always say that platform sharing is terrible when Ford does it but have maintained Caddy was better because the platforms were not shared. Now that GM is sharing even the Caddy platforms they can't really say that any more.

    BTW - my comment was about the Explorer and Aviator because the Aviator had a unique interior and I stand by it.
  • Well, to be perfectly correct, the Camaro and Cadillac do NOT share a platform. The plan is for the future Camaro to do so. The current Camaro and the 2014 Chevrolet SS sedan share a platform. Again, I don't think anyone will see those two as the same or similar either now, or when they are both renewed. That flexible architecture is going to be used a lot in years to come, for Cadillac, Chevy and eventually a flagship Buick.

    The ATS platform for a future Camaro will NOT be a "far too expensive Camaro platform." It's a better size for a Camaro than the current Holden platform. It is obviously a very adaptable platform. Lincoln could execute a similar plan at some point. Whatever compromises you think are necessary could be handled with varying lengths, wheelbases, height, width, suspension tuning, even unique front subframes (Hyundai's solution to creating the Sonata and Azera).

    But bottom line, everything is a compromise, even deciding to build a unique platform with its inherent costs and possibility of killing other potential models. It just depends on how much compromising you are willing to accept as "acceptable."

    Also--you previously did make the same claim about the difference between the Explorer and Mountaineer, as you did with the Explorer and the Aviator bomb.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    Cadillac is to start to engineer the new gen ATS platform next year to be used on the next gen ATS-CTS in 2018. It also continues with the Omega premium platform supposedly produced using carbon fiber components to lessen weight while making the platform the most rigid uni-body presently available. The next gen Camaro is to be introduced as a 2016 model with the present Alpha platform which would be obsolete to Cadillac in a few years when the new Alpha is introduced. However, Cadillac division is trying to thwart the sharing of its platforms . The division believes that to compete with other premium marks Cadillac platforms should be used exclusively on its products. Some GM executives are open to letting the Camaro contiue with a Zeta2 platform as well as its use on the limited production rwd Buick Riviera. So who knows what the future holds. But Cadillac is really doing some exciting engineering once only done by the the European premium marks. The sad thing is that the further Cadillac moves ahead ,Lincoln moves backward. There was a time when Lincoln produced a better engineered or product than Cadillac.

    I went to a Lincoln dealer to inquire what is meant by value pricing . It was comparing prices of similarly equipped Lincolns against similar BMW, Cadillac, Mercedes, Audi, Hyundai Equus. The comparable Lincolns beats them in price by at least 7K. Now to a premium buyer , I'm wondering why are these other makes more expensive than a Lincoln. What is the Lincoln Lacking?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I admit Cadillac has good engineering. The question is whether they can make any money spending all that money on all those different unique platforms. Makes for great magazine comparisons and technical accolades but at the end of the day it's about selling cars for a profit. Why do they need ANOTHER new platform in 5 years? Is the current one that bad?

    Nobody is implying that Lincoln will be world class. Lexus ES and RX aren't really world class either but they sell a heck of a lot more of them than anyone else and since they're based on cheaper Toyota platforms they're making tons of cash.

    I'll take the Lexus model for Lincoln right now (and the profits that come with it). Caddy can have the magazine comparos.
  • And that pretty much sums up why Lincoln is in toilet.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's a good thing that they're planning something totally different going forward.
  • Lexus ES 350 sales are down with the new model.

    Yes, Lincoln can adopt the Lexus model...except, oh yeah, Lincoln forgot to design 3 sizes of rwd sedans, as well as the fwd based sedan and CUV. Oops.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    BTW - my comment was about the Explorer and Aviator because the Aviator had a unique interior and I stand by it.

    As do I, stand by Allen: Having owned both a Navigator and Aviator simultaneously, I'm completely conversant with the complexities of the two. The Aviator totally emulated the Navigator, inside and out, and only a "car guy" would notice the Aviator was an Explorer under the skin, albeit with a hot 4.6L 32V engine - but that person would likely also note that the Navigator is an Expedition under there, except for the 5.4L 32V engine.

    Those were two genious vehicles and sold well. The Navigator has now been "Taurused" like a dog-tired rental slug - so sad.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    edited May 2013
    as many people who post here do so is of some comfort to the Lincoln faithful, all 11 of them.

    Most could give a rip less, and yet there are the lengthy treatises. It's nice that there's actual passion for the brand. I'm sure those who share it could fit into a fairly small venue, larger than a phone booth (remember those?), but not by much.

    It's all about selling (or, more likely, leasing) to the masses. The actual enthusiasts are directed to the exits, at which the door may or may not hit them on the way out.

    Ask Ford if they care.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You keep the sales and profits from Lexus RWD vehicles and I'll keep the ES and RX. That's such a red herring. Nobody who buys an ES or RX gives a rats behind about the IS, GS or LS being RWD.
  • I will keep all Lexus profits, thank you. They have a business plan that works. No one gives a rats [non-permissible content removed] about Lincoln anymore.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And it took them a couple of decades to get where they are today. I think Lincoln can get close in 5 years.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ask Ford if they care.

    I think they do - but in Corporate America (or family held businesses), survival is all about profits - if Lincoln can generate profits - they'll care. It was Bill Ford (and probably still is) who didn't give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about Lincoln, and let the brand languish in it's own blood. Reviving it will take time, but Cadillac was worse, and they did it. It just takes Capital, a great design theme, performance and a little time to do all that. Most of all, it takes a sustained plan - and that has always been Ford's problem. Consistent sustainability.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Lincoln showed consistent sustainability when they produced the same Town Cars from 1990 to 1997 and again from 1998 to 2011.

    How well would their latest design sell had it contained a 5.4 V8 with a 6 speed tranny? We'll never know.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    I dislike the Lincoln ad that shows the 90s style TC as an unwanted relic - they'd give their right arm to have something that sells so well, today. I always kind of liked those cars, especially the 95 (?)+ cars that were decluttered a little. They had some class, and were no doubt durable.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    How well would their latest design sell had it contained a 5.4 V8 with a 6 speed tranny?

    The 4.6L was capable of producing SO MUCH more HP & Torque than it was tuned to put out, it would have more than done the job of making that T/C a hot rod Lincoln - of course, MPG would have been sacrificed. The InTech version got 300 HP in the old Continental and Aviator. The 5.4L wasn't necessary.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    So true, Fintail. The 97 T/C was the high-water mark to me. Most beautiful, had an actual luxury interior, and beautiful stylilng. Everyone I know thought the 98 was ruined, inside and out. It was purposefully made for the livery market, with plenty of room for the taxi meter in the middle of the front dash, (that long ugly dash). The leather in the seats was pathetically cheap compared to the 95-97, well, I could go on about the de-contenting that went on, even as far as eliminating the keypad on the door, which Ford has tried to do countless times, to the protests of their loyal customers. (Although, other than my wife, I don't know anybody who uses the dang thing anymore).

    Yes, they would give a lot for a car that sold like those old T/Cs. However, I don't look at that ad as portraying the 97 as a relic - notice they don't show a 98 + in that Ad, even they know it sucked. I see it more as an evolution from their best "effort", to the new iteration....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,072
    At my first real job out of school, my boss had a 96-97 or so TC (was only maybe 5 years old then) that had very nice plush seating - not a fun ride for a younger driver, but it had an air of class about it. It was also a pretty silvery blue, which probably gave me a favorable impression. Modern Ford leather seems to be paper thin and not premium feeling.

    You might be right about the commercial, maybe I saw the fire breathed on the old car as negative. Those refreshed 90s TCs were a modern pinnacle, IMO. The whale models that followed were a step down, especially the later variants. Earlier TCs were improved as the design aged, the last was not.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ford started turning the Lincoln Leather around in 2010 and 2011, Bridge of Weir I think it's called, and it's a HUGE difference - as it should be. It was pathetic before.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Town Car and Crown Vic were fine vehicles in their day but the market changed to unibody vehicles and no amount of updating would have fixed that. The people who really liked them would buy them used anyway.

    I think the new MKS (on a stretched CD4 platform) will finally be competitive but there simply isn't a very big market for large sedans. The market is moving to small and mid-sized cars and crossovers.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I think the new MKS (on a stretched CD4 platform)

    Please elaborate???
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Rumor is they are going to stretch the CD4 platform (Fusion/MKZ) and possibly widen it as the new platform for the Taurus and MKS replacing the current D3 platform that just isn't well suited to sedans. So MKS becomes a slightly bigger version of the MKZ just like ATS/CTS.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. I use that keypad when the battery in my remote gets weak. Yes, I did like the 1997 Lincoln Town Car as well and believe it was the high-water mark for that model. They similarly deconted the Mercury Grand Marquis as well.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The leather in my Grand Marquis might as well be thick vinyl. I can see a vast gulf between the quality of the leather in the Grand Marquis vs. my 2007 Cadillac DTS. Heck, even the old leather in my 1989 Cadillac Brougham seems richer though it feels wafer thin.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited May 2013
    ...from the 1960s showing captains of industry alongside their Continentals. The Lincoln was once truly a rich successful man's car. Heck, one could feel like a CEO in one of those Continentals even if one was just a cubicle dweller. Today's Lincolns make one feel like a cubicle dweller who paid too much to lease a gussied-up Ford even if one actually was a CEO.
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