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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Today's Lincolns make one feel like a cubicle dweller who paid too much to lease a gussied-up Ford even if one actually was a CEO."

    It would be interesting to know how many Fortune 500 CEOs drive Lincolns today. Maybe just one, Alan Mulally. It would also be interesting to know how many drive Cadillacs. Even though GM has not yet reentered the Fortune 500 (although it's expected to), my guess is that more CEOs drive Cadillacs than Lincolns. I imagine, though, that most drive MBs, BMWs, Audis or Lexuses. A few may drive Porsches or Ferraris, or even Corvettes and Teslas.

    The important thing for Lincoln, though, is the future. Will more CEOs be driving Lincolns in, say, five years?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I did a Google search of "What do CEOs of Fortune 500 companies drive, but only found a list of what CEOs drive. Here it is:

    Gary Kelly, Southwest Airlines: 2005 Porsche 911 Carrera (bought used)

    Dan Amos, Aflac: 2007 Volvo XC90

    Dixon Thayer, I-trax (health care facilities): 1986 Ford F-250

    Phil Libin, EverNote (technology company): Lexus GS 450h

    Adam Selig, Visible Technologies (brand management): 2006 Mercedes-Benz CLK

    Robert Stacy, Asia Media Products: 2007 Porsche Cayman

    Henry Givray, SmithBucklin (association management): Audi A8

    Craig Hunt, KeysCaribbean Resorts: 1997 Land Rover Defender

    Kris Singh, Holtec (energy company): 2003 Lexus LS 430 and unknown 2007 Mercedes-Benz AMG

    Debbie McGrath, HR.com: 1993 Oldsmobile Silhoutte

    Bob Peterson, Melton Truck Lines: Toyota Camry

    Raul Fernandez, ObjectVideo: 2007 Maserati Quattroporte

    Dean Cubley, ERF Wireless: Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (That’s a roughly-$100,000 car. The company has yet to turn a profit.)

    I don't know anything about Debbie McGrath, but I do know she's not a show-off. Well, at least she drive a Oldsmobile, and not a lowly Chevy. More interesting than what she drives, is why she drives it. For annonymity, maybe, or to prove she has nothing to prove? The Silhoutte is a brilliant choice for reducing your chance of being carjacked.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I assume that list is from ~2007? And for most of those, I'd wager my life the listed car isn't the only car in the household. If 1986 Ford truck guy is married, I'd wager his wife was driving a new Escalade or Lexus SUV. Or that Camry guy also has a Corvette hanging around for nice days. Or that all of them have expensed-off company cars.

    For HR.com, maybe an organization as useless sounding only produces enough revenue to fund an old Silhouette? :shades:
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited May 2013
    Yeah, I agree that this list is pretty useless and doesn't represent the truth. Infact, it raises more questions than it answers.

    Well, Dean Cubley's "SL 500", and whose company has yet to turn a profit, may be for real. Still, what year is his MB? Also, is the car a company expense, which adds to whatever losses are accruing?

    And we don't know what year that Camry is, either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    edited May 2013
    The year of the data also important - all of those are older cars now affordable to many people. But in 2007, not so much.

    SL500 would be before 2007, anyway.

    Thinking of all that, a friend of mine's father was a senior engineer at a company, made very good money, had a gorgeous house, had a new 40K+ car expensed to the company,etc . They also had a well-used ~75 Chevy pickup for junk hauling. Would look good for those stats. On that note, the Silhouette and Camry were probably there to be used by the hired help.

    I personally know one VP at my employer (which employs tens of thousands) - probably making a very healthy mid 6 figures. He and his wife get a new Volvo wagon or CUV every 5 or so years. The director of my group, one step below VP and certainly into 6 figures as well, is a stereotypical schmoozing old fratboy, and drives a 5er. Shocking!
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    edited May 2013
    Those who can afford the SLR camera often use a PAS because their interest is not photography. Those who just want to get from A to B lean to Fusions & Foci while the car guy will drive the sportyist vehicle he can finance.

    Submit to the limit. ;)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Bill Gates' daily driver is said to be an old Lexus LS400.
    Ross Perot's car was an early 1980s Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency.
    Sam Walton drove an old Ford F-150.
    My wife's boss is chaufferred around in a Lexus LS460L.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    "Lincoln will grow in 2017. The Aviator name will come back..., a new Navigator will arrive, as will two cars called MKM and MKA."

    That is a full three to four model years from now, but it does indicate that the new new Lincoln Motor Company team has finally gotten the memo that they need to pump much greater resources into their products if they are to be competitive, a hard lesson Cadillac learned earlier. Unfortunately, it takes three years to do a significant line-up revamp. But they are on the right road now.

    An aside: beginning to see some MKZs on the road. In the metal, I think the Fusion actually has better looks.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's why I bought the Fusion instead. I actually like it better. The MKZ nose needs to look more like the MKC concept.

    Don't put a lot of stock in that article. Insiders are saying it's full of inaccuracies, although everyone agrees an Aviator is coming.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I can see a vast gulf between the quality of the leather in the Grand Marquis vs. my 2007 Cadillac DTS

    Really? Cadillac vs. Mercury? Shouldn't the Cadillac be "top of the line"?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    edited May 2013
    Excellent topic: I'm in Vegas, and I'm a CEO and I drive a Lexus LS460. But, just for kicks, here's a comparison - so what do you think the difference is?

    2 Women CEOs of major Vegas Hotel/Resorts - one drives a Rolls (has 2 of them, convertible Corniche and a Silver something, both recent models). The other drives a Honda Element. I know them both, and have asked them both. The difference is: The one cares, the other just doesn't care about cars or image.

    Two friends (CEOs) of mine, (major corporations, a CEO can own a new stand too) - one drives a Cadillac DTS, the other an Audi Q7. They both "like" cars, but neither want to be that high profile. I find a lot of my friends who have "really made it", actually try to downplay their profile a bit, while those who are just trying, or really don't have the success, fame or means, are the ones trying to show off. Hollywierd celebs and rappers excluded.
  • edward53edward53 Member Posts: 113
    edited May 2013
    Late model Rolls Corniche and Silver Spur . They must really be late as the Corniche was discontinued in 1996 and the Silver Spur in 1998. My family has owned a few tool an die companies since 1936. Well a gentleman who was an employee of the company since the company's founding retired in 1976 after over 40 yrs of service. My father bought him as a retirement gift a silver over black Rolls Carmague which at that time cost over 44k and he also paid all of the taxes on it for him. His Grandson now has the vehicle with only 53000 plus well maintained miles on it. He's thinking about putting it up for auction in January with the Jackson Barret Co . So, if anyone is looking for a collectible vehicle of which only 506 total were made, contact Jackson Barret for a catalog of available vehicles for the January auction.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    My father bought him as a retirement gift a silver over black Rolls Carmague . . .

    Something tells me that I would have walked over broken glass to have worked for your dad. That kind of loyalty still exists, but it's rare and will probably be entirely gone in the next few years.

    I joined my company 45 years ago and came back to stay in 1980. I am beyond odd in today's environment, but I still appreciate working with people who've been here for awhile.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Ooh the Camargue, weird car, but I kind of like them - maybe because the first large scale model car I received as a kid was a white Camargue made by Bburago. Kind of unloved, but I could see a nice one bringing 50K or so to the right person, especially if two people want it.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    MKS Ecoboost upgrade needed now.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The MKS had an Ecoboost option from the start. What do you mean?
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    edited June 2013
    We probably will not see any upgrade to the MKS ecoboost until it moves to the new platform. However, for $600, any MKS ecoboost owner can get an aftermarket tune that upgrades the engine to a very smooth and easy 425 HP or more.

    Most of us who have installed the tune are seeing 0-60 times in the mid 4s and quarter mile times in the high 12s - and even better mileage when driven conservatively. Ford left a LOT on the table with the ecoboost V6 and hopefully when the MKS moves to the new platform and gets a more robust transmission, they will utilize its full potential.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    He's referring to the XTS VSport having more hp, although I think the torque numbers are pretty close so in the real world there won't be a huge difference. The 3.5L EB is torque limited to protect the transmission.

    I don't think 365+ hp in either vehicle will have any significant effect on sales volume though.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The Cadillac twin turbo is tuned for more HP but not much more torque than the Ford Ecoboost. GM has the same need for a more robust FWD transmission as Ford if they really want to utilize high torque engines.

    I would be surprised if there is much real-world performance difference between a stock MKS ecoboost and the XTS VSport. Again, with a tune, the ecoboost MKS becomes a different beast.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Plus I'm guessing the market share of the EB MkS is very small compared to the 3.7L. The market just isn't that big to begin with and the market for big hp is even smaller.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I am not sure what the split is between ecoboost and 3.7. From my perspective, driving the base 3.7 would be like going on a date with my sister - a pleasant enough experience....and that is about it.....
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    According to Cars.com there are about 3000 MKS in inventory across the country and about 750 are ecoboost. Higher than I expected but still only about 25%. And it's possible the non-ecoboost models turn over more quickly so the actual sales volume could be lower.

    Enthusiasts who want high performance are simply a rare breed nowadays for most vehicles but especially for full sized sedans.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Then count me among that very rare breed who wants a high-performance full-size sedan! Of course, the XTS seems more like a midsize to me. I'd like to see that kind of performance in a car the size of my DTS.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Yes, high performance full-size buyers are probably a rare breed but a pretty passionate breed. Chevy will have the SS out soon to join the Hemi Charger/Chrysler 300 and Taurus SHO.

    Until I began frequenting some forums specifically for ecoboost vehicles, I had no idea that there were so many guys modifying and drag racing their SHOs, Flexes and MKSs. While a drop in the bucket compared to all the car buyers out there, they are a very loyal and vocal group. There are a number of reputable tuners who are continuing to offer hardware and software upgrades for the ecoboost.

    I think there is something sort of cool about a quiet, comfortable 4400 pound full-size vehicle that looks like it should be driven by a Florida retiree but is capable of pulling away from a 5.0 Mustang or V8 Camaro. Not everyone's cup of tea, though...
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    As a Northwest retiree, the EB MKS was selected so as to get over the Cascades without hindering the 5.0 Mustangs and to also efficiently merge onto the freeway without impeding the same Mustang. We bought the MKS after auditioning the SHO which left a lot of class to be desired, but found in the MKS. Locally, the Lincoln dealer is much preferred over the Caddy character and that counts for a lot. :)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    like going on a date with my sister - a pleasant enough experience

    Little creepy, there, bruce! :surprise:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A reporter would like to speak to a recent buyer of a car from a manufacturer that is widely considered "American"--e.g. Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Chrysler, Cadillac-- who has not previously owned an "American" car. If this is you, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Monday, July 1, 2013 no later than noon Pacific.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Lincoln sales are flat comparing June 2012 to June 2013. Take solace that the decreases from year to year seem to be happening less.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Like a government budget cut - which is really a decrease in the increase of spending..... :surprise:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Meanwhile, just to get Allen riled up, I will point out that Cadillac is America's fastest growing brand.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    True, but Cadillac sales are 1/2 what they were in 1976. It's a long road back.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    very true, but they are on that road. it is also true that there are more luxury brands vying in a big way for the luxury market than there were back in the 1970s.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't see Cadillac ever coming back to its former glory but I do see it surviving. The only Cadillac that younger people seem to be buying is the Escalade, which is a very dated platform. Cadillac still has the most aged population vs. Lexus, Mercedes and especially Audi, which attracts a much younger buyer.

    But considering how GM drove Cadillac into a ditch, they are doing pretty well. It takes a much longer time to restore a reputation than it took to destroy it. So Cadillac went downhill for a good 20 years and it'll take at least that to come back.

    Let's see how they look in 2020, then maybe I'll change my mind.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What? I've been buying new Cadillacs since I was 24! My first new Cadillac was the 1989 Brougham I still own. I followed it up with a 1994 DeVille, a 2002 Seville STS, and my current 2007 DTS Performance. I'm waiting for them to put out a true S-Class competitor before I buy again. I see the XTS as a stop-gap model until then.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you are way outside the statistical average. Cadillac owners' average age is about...something like 56-58
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Escalade sales have gone through the floor, that bloated sled is too tacky and obese even for most Muricans. I suspect the younger buyers are mostly in ATS and SRX.

    2020 is only 6.5 years away. 2030 might say even more. Took a quarter century to nearly kill it, should take the same to revive it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    SRX is popular with younger people, are are correct---but the Escalade still sells to the 40s crowd, amazing as that seems.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Several former Escalade drivers I know, are now in Audi Q7s.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Audi has *really* captured the youth market.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Cadillac's problem isn't sales or individual vehicles but how much money GM has wasted on them the last decade with multiple platforms and big failures like the XLR. The ATS is nice but it only cannibalized CTS sales. Trying to copy BMW is an admirable engineering goal but a terrible business plan.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    How do you see the future for Lincoln? For Tesla?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    Almost word for word usual Cadillac slam from you. Certainly they could have done things better at several junctures. However their sales are growing quickly and they are growing in China as well, where GM sells over four times as many cars as Ford does. For years now, you have been stating that we should give Lincoln a chance to re-structure. It seems obvious that part of the problem is Ford has not invested enough cash into the brand. Thus, it has stayed at the bottom of the sales ladderr. So go ahead and slam Cadillac and all of their profligate spending. But they have the sales lead, and a new CTS coming this fall. BMW did not get to the top by using a plan like Lincoln's. It is really all about what Lincoln aspires to be. If they want to be Acura or Buick, they are probably on the right course.

    BTW, speaking of sales cannibalization,isn't that exactly what the MKZ is doing to other Lincoln models, given that Lincoln sales are not growing since its introduction?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    For Lincoln? At the rate Ford is working the brand, I see a rather grim future for the marque. At least GM is trying to make Cadillac more distinctive in the public's eye (with only marginal success I might add, in that all of their models look too much the same). But at least GM "gets it"--that they have to do SOMETHING--Ford seems to be floundering around with Lincoln.

    Tesla---who knows on this one! My personal feeling, just from the gut, is that all full-electric cars are ultimately doomed. So my crystal ball says that Tesla will have to morph into something else, or else be content as a very small niche player catering to the luxury "toy" market ala Maserati, Aston Martin, Bentley, etc. However, the later choice is dangerous because it is very hard to make $$$ on low production in the car business, unless you remain pretty small (like Morgan).
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The most successful luxury brands (BMW, Mercedes, Audi) all make their various models look like different sizes of each other. Audis are like a sausage that comes in three lengths, and consumers seem to like that. Family resemblance and a family look are especially valued in premium brands. Thus, even though many of us don't care much for the "arts and sciences" Cadillac look, it is a look, and it is instantly recognizable. They do stand out in a crowd too.

    Most reviews of the XTS look have been positive. The car itself is mechanically and dynamically no standout, but looks on the street it seems to have. I recently saw an XTS and MKS is close proximity parked. The eye immediately is drawn to the XTS, whereas the MKS either looks a bit too tall, or at best anonymous. It does not look like the money they charge for it. And other than the grills (which vary considerably still), Lincoln vehicles do not resemble one another at all in different sizes. Maybe the next MKS can begin a Lincoln look or styling trend for sedans. Hopefully the MKC will start a trend for the CUVs/SUVs in the family.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2013
    7 cars people buy again and again: What makes these models so popular (Interest.com)

    Specifically the 5th one on the list.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think anyone mistakes a BMW 3 series for a 6 or 7 series, or an A4 for an A8---but all Cadillacs seem to look exactly like each other, no matter what the price---the pricing ladder is not conspicuous.

    And the styling is either love it or hate it--
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I dunno, 5er vs SWB 7er can be tough these days, and A4 vs A6 or A6 vs A8 can also be tough from a distance - no better differentiated from Cadillacs. The CTS and ATS are somewhat similar, but XTS is much different.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2013
    I guess what I mean is that the CTS and the XTS look like they cost the same amount of money, not that they don't look nice enough.

    So, okay Cadillac is hunting the E Class Mercedes...where does that leave Ford?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    No more alike than the Audis and BMWs. The current 5er is very much like a 7, to the point where I think they share some structure. And the Audi "3 sizes" is true too, IMO. And it works for them.

    XTS has a rear quarter window the CTS doesn't have, different greenhouse. The front end is similar, but that's art and science. ATS is more similar to CTS, but noticeably smaller.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Today's Lincolns would make nice Mercuries. They are hardly Lincolns as I once knew them!
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