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Volkswagen Passat Sludge Issues
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Comments
You said: "But, how do you explain the same diagnosis of a new engine due to sludge, for the more responsible owners who did in fact change their oil every 5,000 miles?? (Go to: myvwlemon.com for specific cases). In such instances, wouldn't the oil changes be irrelevant to the creation of sludge and more a case of engine malfunction?"
This MIGHT be a good point but has absolutely ZERO to do with your situation. You were not a responsible owner therefore it is useless for you to bring this point up.
BTW: If you follow this pattern of maintenance with a 4Cyl Camry that is known for sludging, you will be in the same boat you are now. Good Luck and it is never in your best interest to consider a car a disposable item as your actions have indicated.
But, I'm not a total nitwit and altho' haven't done oil changes every 5k, have always had the major tune ups. Guess I was just lucky w/ my past cars because I always bought brand new and drove well past 80k miles w/ no major problems.
What are your thoughts re: buying used and any suggestions on dependable and easy to maintain cars that are sedan size?? And, yes, this time around will keep up w/ the oil changes!
I think that not too many people will dispute Toyota's lead in reliability. With that in mind, I would still suggest that you priority weighted list of things that are really important to you and/or anyone else involved in a major purchase. I also found that in these situations it would really help if you put a cap on how much you'd like to spend on your new car. The third thing that you should decide before looking at your options is whether you are buying used or new.
So, this is how I'd do it...
Step I: New or Used?
What to consider if buying used? Here, especially if your priorities lie with buying something reliable, regardless of reliability ratings, I wouldn't buy something that someone young might have owned, so no celica's, eclipses,lancer EVO's etc. Since you are buying used I think that you are trying to get a good value, so I would only consider cars with bad resale values. Buick Regal and Toyota Avalon come to mind.
I would also not waste my time and money going to carfax, because I know many cases where the cars were in very bad accidents and were repaired by reputable shops and the repairs never showed up on carfax. What I would do is that I would inspect a car myself or by a body shop if you don't know what to look for. What to look for?
Chassis: I would look for misaligned and/or different shades of paint body parts. I would look for any clamps that might have been used to repair the body/frame. Check the doors to see how they close. If you push the door while it's in full open position and release it quickly (sort of like slamming it, but don't slam it)with enough force so that it would barely lock you should see more-or less constant door speed. As the door closes look how it aligns with the other door, roof, and chassis below. The gaps should be parallel, if they are not, don't buy the car. Don't buy cars that smell like mold, or stink in any way.
Powertrain:
1.)Engine:I would also look to see if there are any visible leaks form the engine, or loud noises coming from it. Don't buy cars with modified engines. If I was buying a car and I opened the hood and saw anything like a modification (cold air intake or so) I would immediately close the hood and walk away. If someone is modifying their car for performance that means that they drove it aggressively. Invest in a compression tester or take the car to the mechanic with one and test the compression. Check oil and look if it looks like it hasn't been changed in a while. Also check the oil when the engine is cold, there shouldn't be any water residue. You might want to buy a relatively inexpensive tester ($25 auto zone) to check how much water and metal there is in the oil sump If too much walk away.
2) Transmition: If it is an AUTOMATIC open a window and drive with the window down and listen for sound that sounds like constant winding at low speeds (v) if so don't buy it. Check the transmition fluid in neutral while car is hot, the fluid should be clear red. You should not see any water or metal parts in it. If you do, don't by the car. With all that said buy a manual and if your excuse is that your wife doesn't know how to drive, take 1 weekend with her and teach her. The hardest part is to learn how to move from the dead stop and uphill. Spend 4-5 hours with her doing just this. Make her accelerate to 10mph form stop, than make her stop and again, and again, and again ad infinitum... well not really, take about 6 hours, at the end of the day she will be proud of herself and you will have saved about $1000 for the difference in price. I call this win-win.
If you are buying MANUAL test the clutch by releasing it quickly from high RPM as you shift from lower to higher gear and watch as RPM's drop. Is the RPM drop immediate? Did the tires slip and clutch did not? If the clutch is slipping don't buy the car. As you shift does the car shudder? This is not good either. Try to shift quickly from low to high gear, if the lower gear engages only if you push REALLY hard or only if the car slows down quite a bit than synchronizers are gone/going or just poorly designed, don't buy this car.
Rear Differential (if equipped): Look for leaks and splits. If car has LSD drive around in a circle slowly than accelerate really fast as the car leans to the outside of the turn, if the inside wheel spins like there is no tommorow, well don't buy this car.
(please note cars can also have front and center diff's as well, if it has a locker than you already know all of this, since I doubt anyone would buy something with lockers and not know what diff's do. Although, I know this wanna be rapper / drug dealer with a G500 who didn't know what a spark plug was, so who knows? :confuse: )
Take a test drive. Does the car pull to one side as you are going on a flat surface? Does the car pull to one side as you are breaking hard on a flat surface? Go to an empty parking lot and make a full left and righ lock. Do you hear clicking form the front that is speed dependant? When driving on a highway does the car shimmy or shake? If any of the above is true, well, you know...
... or you could buy a new car
NEW: Drive it and pay attention to the things you like in a car, stearing, brakes, ride whatever and compare it to other cars that you have selected as competition.
Step II: How much can you afford?
Say gas costs $3.5/gallon and you can find a really cheap H1 ($14G) but you drive everyday to and from work 85 miles, can you afford this? Can you afford changing engines every 38K miles? How would I do this? I would split the problem into different categories.
Category I: Initial price
Category II: Total cost at end of life. If you are buying new you could use edmund's estimate for cost of cars. If you are buying used I would look into fuel economy, insurance cost and repairs as most relevant to the cost of the car. Which means that I'd check how much it would cost me to insure it vs what you have now as one of the first things I'd do.
You can use either of these, most people just like to use initial price, forgeting that sometimes more expencive cars cost less at the end of life, for example BMW 325i (40,492) and Ford Taurus SEL (41,247), even this is slightly wrong as BMW has a 4 year maintanance paid not 2 years. So I'd use edmund's 5 year estimate, or you can make your own estimate (I made my own).
When you have decided how much you wanted to spend and whether you are buying New or Used, you should have narrowed down your coices significantly.
Step III: Weighted Priorities...
Say you like reliability in cars. Say you want to say 60% of my decesion will be based on how reliable my car is. Ok, than, that means that this only leaves you with 40% of all the other priorities. So here is how I would do it.
I would take all the cars that could pass the first two steps and I would take reliability estimates from April issue(s) form Consumer Reports and I would multiply the reliability score that a car gets with 0.6. The nubmber I get is the weighted score for reliability for this one car. I would do the same thing for all the cars I am considering.
Later I would add other categories like maybe looks, suspension tuning, engine performance, fuel economy, total cost, whatever and repeat the above. At the end I would add all the points and have your "dream" car
Or you could just go and buy a Camry. I don't think many people bought a Camry and thought that they did something stupid. I actuall wrote much more for step III before, but my post was too long
Good night guys
I think a used car purchase is perfectly fine.....AS LONG as you get the car checked by your specified mechanic. Also, run a carfax.
Suggestions for cars: Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla/Camry. You really can't go wrong with these choices. Just make sure you at least change the oil in your new/used car. Even if it's at a quick lube (aka....Jiffy Lube). These places are better than not having the oil changed at all.
Good luck with your new car and just chalk the Passat ownership up to a learning experience.
I have never heard of Honda sludging, so it could be good bet.
Krzys
PS I would think that GM with V6 3800 engine (no supercharger) would be quite low maintenance but I might be wrong.
My approach up until my Passat was to get dealer service and count on them to do what is appropriate. My Camry's dealer had a courtesy van, AND, walk-in oil changes while you wait. Unfortunately, my VW dealer required an appointment months in advance for an oil change, AND there was no courtesy van. So, in order to get an oil change I had to make an appointment 2 months in advance and take a taxi each way ($40 each way here in Metro Atlanta).
So...since I was naive enough to think I had to have DEALER service only to maintain my warranty, I was a little late on oil changes. (7,000 miles instead of 5,000 miles)
The mechanic who replaced my engine at the dealer told me, "We've replaced a lot of 1.8 turbo Passat engines. They have a very small oil pan that easily clogs."
My bill ended up $10,000 because it took the dealer 4 weeks to diagnose that I needed a new engine, then 3 weeks to get the engine and install it. (Please note, this was not my dealer in Atlanta. I was in Chattanooga TN on a road trip when the engine service light came on.) I had to pay 7 weeks of rental charges.
I think all 1.8 Passats should come with a large warning - MUST change oil or else! And it MUST be synthetic oil. And it's OK to get it changed anywhere you need to to keep up with service.
I am 50 years old. I have owned and maintained my own cars since I was 16, taking the approach of maintenance now prevents problems later. I will NEVER buy another VW. I will go back to Toyota where service is easy and the cars are reliable. I wish I had not followed Consumer Reports advice in 2001 when I wanted the best station wagon available.
OK, guys, tell me I'm irresponsible. I'm NOT. I am serious when I say that a small oil pan with a sludge problem should include a special warning.
I totally agree w/ you re: a MUST change oil or else warning. VW of America needs to specifically state (in no uncertain terms) that if you cannot show proof for every 5,000k miles, it will NOT be covered under warranty.
Toyota has stepped up to the plate on sludge issues w/ their cars and covered costs as long as owners could prove they had their oil changed once a year. Toyota is a compamy that stands behind their product and their reputation is important. VW of America is the antithesis of Toyota and as much as I detest the dealerships for not supporting their customers, I feel ultimately the problem/blame lies w/ the manufacturer. After all, part of the reason you choose a car manufacturer is that you hope they will provide good customer service!!!
I am truly sorry for what you had to go through and I wish you luck w/ your new engine. BTW, did you get a full 8-year warranty on the new engine???
Now, since VW clearly states in writing that the maintenance due on your vehicle is 5000 miles, not 7000 miles, why should VW pay for your new engine if you did NOT adhere to their specified oil change intervals (OCI)?
Since I don't know you I cannot call you irresponible. But, as far as maintaining your Passat you were irresponsible in regards to getting your oil changed as specified by VWoA. Prior to 2004, regular Dino oil was being used in Passats (1.8t and 6cyl). It '04 / '05 VW sent all 1.8t owners a letter regarding the sludge issue and specified certain oils (synthetic) that are to be used to prevent oil sludge. If ALL oil changes were completed on time and you (dealer) used regular dino oil up until 2004, then VWoA would most likely be footing the bill for a new engine.
I think your comment about going back to a Toyota (great cars BTW) is a smart move. They tend to be able to take some abuse (read: lack of maintenance) and keep on going. VW's on the other hand NEED to be maintained religiously. When they are taken care of they should provide many years of happy motoring.
Also, you stated you are from the Atlanta area? Me too. EVERY dealer I have taken my Passat to has offered a free shuttle and most of the time a free loaner. What dealer were you dealing with? I have used Jim Ellis (Atlanta & Marietta), Heritage VW and my current dealer of choice is Gossett VW in Alpharetta. Your comment about the dealers not providing a shuttle leaves me a little confused since all the ATL dealers I have been too have always offered a free shuttle and most of the time a free loaner.
Good Luck!!
Okay, so if sludge in a result of "negligence," then how do you explain it happening to Passat owners who DID follow the manual and changed their oil EVERY 5k miles at the dealership, had the sludge problem, got a new engine under warranty, AND, now have sludge again in their second engine. Couldn't a conclusion be drawn that the 1.8 turbo engine has a sludge problem??????
And re: synthetic oil, all my oil changes, done at the VW dealership, were all done w/ non-synthetic oil!!!!! I specifically called and checked on this and they told me they don't use synthetic oil and the directive to use synthetic oil has only come out a few years ago.
AND, these were the types of oil that they used:
ZVW-5W-30
10W30
none of which are technically on the approved list!
There is a reason Lexus consistently ranks #1 (JD Power and assoc) and VW trails on the bottom w/ Hundai and KIA. The only thing I will say is that the VW interior designs are nice, but what's the good in that when the car is a moneypit and trim randomly falls off here and there............
"Okay, so if sludge in a result of "negligence," then how do you explain it happening to Passat owners who DID follow the manual and changed their oil EVERY 5k miles at the dealership, had the sludge problem, got a new engine under warranty, AND, now have sludge again in their second engine. Couldn't a conclusion be drawn that the 1.8 turbo engine has a sludge problem?????? "
That is a pretty strong statement. Please back it up with facts...please provide proof. Who? If an owner can prove they got their oil changed at 5K OCI's at a VW dealership then VW should not deny a warranty claim for sludge.
VW however did give new engines to those who followed the manual and changed oil every 5k miles, according to his statement.
As far as having sludge again in their 2nd engine... how many people you think would actually perform a turbo cool down at the end of driving? Again, I'd blame it on the dealerships and salepeople for not informing customers how to take care of turbo charged engines. For those who don't have 2 mins to let the turbo cool down should buy the V6 or W8 model instead. Oh wait... then they might complain how expensive it is to change oil on the W8... nevermind... :shades:
OHMYGOD........ THIS IS A GREAT CAR and everything the Passat was not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think they are comparable in price, but you get so much more w/ Infinity, including (knock on wood) a car manufacturer that actually stands behind their product and extends good customer service. Something I NEVER got from VW of A.
My advice to all of you w/ VW problems is this: cut your losses now and get a Japanese car. Not as stylish as European cars, but, fun to drive nonetheless and won't be a moneypit in the long run! Just my 2 cents.
p.s. thanks for all your advice/feedback too.
that won't be an issue. Also, my sis swears by her Honda Accord, which I think the backseat is horribly uncomfortable...... What is an old girl like me to do?
Krzys
For more general Passat conversation, it would probably be better to drop by our ongoing Volkswagen Passat 2005 and earlier discussion. We can let this one stay focused specifically on sludge issues.
See ya there!
Ask them what oil they used to check what they know.
Oil must meet VW 502.00 (I think I have it right) specification.
Krzys
PS I have never seen VW rental in US.
If that is the case, how on earth are you blaming VW for the cars sludge issue? Are you really stating that if a car NEVER has the oil changed it should still run without problems?
How long have you owned this car? How many miles?
Krzys
PS Thanks for calling me names as this probably describes me: "anal retentive people who are [non-permissible content removed] about maintenance".
Could you explain in simple English what you mean?
I am not "blaming" VW I am basically saying that this car is a nightmare and not just for the reasons of the sludge. Set aside the fact that this car was in the dealership auto shop four times for this issue yet none of their genius mechanics could figure that out. I don't blame VW for the sludge buildup I actually would like to hold the dealership at fault, or partly at fault, for the falsified oil sticker in the window for one, and two for lying to me about changing the oil.
I also have come to the conclusion that VWs suck in general. Really I do now believe that. My sister owns a Jetta that has had nothing but problems including recalled electrical problems that have had to be fixed four times since 2001, that was just fixed about four months ago and yet again all of her lights are not working. I now know a number of VW owners, I live in a city of VW owners and I don't know one at the present time that doesn't regret getting a VW.
I would also like to say that I am totally disgusted at the RUDE behavior some people on here are displaying. I'm sorry that I am having problems and HATE VW and that you are fine. I’m sorry that you are probably one of those people who washes their car with a cloth diaper, but sorry, I have a life to attend to and can't constantly worry about a car that was practically brand new when I bought it, (at least it was sold to me as a “almost new” car, but then again I guess I should never trust a car salesman should I.) I joined this Forum to view and seek out advice and stories from other VW drivers not to be criticized by people who think they know everything!
I think people were trying to get the details clarified rather than directly criticizing you. Maybe if you have some specific questions, we can try to answer them for you.
I'm sorry for what you've experienced with your Passat.
Lets see, you bought the car with 35,000 miles and proceeded to drive 10,000 additional miles. You changed the oil once during that time. That is not negligent. Passats are required to have their oil changed every 5K miles so you did nothing wrong there. You said besides the oil sludge issue, the car has been a nightmare. But you haven't stated what else was wrong with it. You told us all the problems your sister has had, but I must have missed the other problems you have had with your Passat.
I am not trying to be rude in anyway, but I am sure you didn't post on Edmunds and not expect responses from fellow forum members. Right?
This is a complete shot in the dark and excuse me if you take offense to this comment, but here goes.... If you are talking to your Service Advisor and Service Manager (at the VW dealership) in the same tone you are writing your messages on this board, then no wonder they have not been too willing to work these issues out with you.
BTW: Did you get a mechanic, other than the VW dealer, to look over this car before you bought it?
I have always taken it to the dealer for maintenance ...but I am sure I have skipped an oil change or two. Since the warranty expired at (50k? 60K ... I forget) I haven't had it serviced. I was planning on taking it in when I hit 75K this week (thinking 75K was some big checkup) and of course this past weekend I got the "STOP engine" oil pressure low light.
I pulled over - checked the oil and it was empty. I put a couple quarts in it and drove a couple miles - the light stayed on. I then had it towed to a dealership. 1200 later I had a new oil pump and my 80K sparkplug/filter change. I had never heard of this sludge issue before ...
I am wondering if I should sale it while its all tuned up and running again. The dealership told me that the engine was a-okay. Does this seem plausible? Does it seem likely that if I maintain a strict schedule of oil changes that the car will be ok for the next few years?
Thanks -
No oil change for from 50K to 75K (warranty expires at 50K). Please explain.
Krzys
I had to let it warm up for 2 minutes before driving,get
an oil change every 3K miles for a year,and the sludge went away. Does anyone know if this resolves sludge issues overall?
Because VW has admitted that the 1.8t engine will form sludge if not maintained with the proper synthetic oil and the oil changed at the correct OCI many owners blame VW for THEIR negligence!!!!
It seems like an epidemic in the U.S. to try to blame other for their own mistakes.
Bottom line is you will and should be responsible for a new engine.
Try not to change oil in any vehicle and I bet engine will fail, sooner or later.
Krzys
Timing belt - I am now convinced more than ever that the timing belt breakage issues that plagued the 1998 through 2002 1.8T engines are attributed to issues other than the timing belt itself. To elaborate further, while having my timing belt changed, I inspected the old timing belt after it was removed and the belt looked like it could go at least another 30,000 miles - there was no sign of cracking or excessive wear whatsover (the serpentine belt was the same way). I also noticed that the timing belt was a lot thicker than the belts I've seen (and changed on my previous VWs) in the past.
When I asked my mechanic about this, he said that based on the hundreds of 1.8T timing belt changes he and his mechanics have done over the years (especially the 1998 through 2002 models which had the lion's share of timing belt failures), the following conditions can make a timing belt fail before the 105K mile interval:
1) Sludge-related cylinder head failure (majority of timing belt failures) - A severely sludged engine will result an oil-starved cylinder head. Over time, this lack of lubrication will result in the overhead cams stopping dead in their tracks while the rest of the engine is still moving. Once the cams stop, that means the cam sprocket isn't turning which will result in the timing belt's teeth shearing off. And to make matters worse, the pistons are still moving while some valves are open, so they will eventually crash into each other, and voila - thousands of dollars worth of engine damage. I fault both VW (for not making synthetic oil MANDATORY for the 1.8T engines right from the get-go (1998)) and those VW owners who don't change their oil within the (every) 5000 mile interval (and use synthetic). If you own a 1998 through 2002 VW with the 1.8T engine, I would have the engine flushed (de-sludged), and use synthetic oil (meeting the VW 502.00 specification) from this point on. This will significantly reduce your chances of timing belt and sludge-related failures.
2) Not changing the water pump at every timing belt change.
During my timing belt change, I had the mechanic replace every timing belt related item as well. When he showed me the old water pump @ 73,000 miles, the internal plastic impeller was starting to disintegrate. So changing the water pump turned out to be good insurance against engine failure. If the water pump hadn't been changed, chances are the engine would either over heat (since there's no impeller to move the coolant through the engine), or a piece of the impeller may jam the water pump, causing the timing belt to shear and cause the aformentioned damage described in the previous condition (See #1).
There are two types of water pumps available for this engine. If you use the OEM (factory) water pump with the plastic impeller, have your timing belt/water pump replaced every 60,000 - 70,000 miles. The plastic impeller on the OEM water pumps sold recently are of an improved design, but to be on the safe side, I wouldn't go beyond 70,000 mile intervals between changes.
The second type of water pump is a significantly improved aftermarket design which replaces the plastic impeller with a metal one. If you use this water pump, you will be able to extend your timing belt change intervals to 100,000 miles (assuming the engine has been properly serviced every 5000 miles with synthetic oil meeting the VW 502.00 specification). If your mechanic and/or dealer has this water pump available, DEFINITELY use it.
3) Hydraulic timing-belt tensioners - Chances are, your 1.8T engine has two hydraulic timing belt tensioners that MUST be changed at every timing belt change (whether it be at 60,000 mile, 70,000 mile or 100,000 mile intervals). NO EXCEPTIONS. According to my mechanic, these tensioners are good for 100,000 miles, but after that, you are definitely rolling the dice. These components are CRITICAL in keeping the timing belt properly tensioned. If you use these beyond 100,000 miles, and one (or both) tensioners fail, it will result in timing belt failure and thousands of dollars in engine repairs. That is why it is good practice to have every component replaced during the timing belt service (timing belt, serpentine belt, water pump, hydraulic tensioners & tensioner pulley). It will save you time, $$$$ and a lot of headaches in the long run.
Here's a couple of extra helpful hints:
Golf/Jetta 1.8T timing belt service - Count on 6 hours for labor and $300 in parts if done by a private mechanic, and $500+ in parts (6-8 hours for labor) if done by a dealership.
Passat 1.8T - Count on 4 hours labor and $300-$400 in parts (private mechanic) or $600-$800 in parts (dealer) & 4 - 5 hours of labor
HTH
You loose a lot of credibility with such statement.
My teenage daughter claims that everybody does this or that and after questioning everybody becomes somebody.
With cars it is similar.
Note to potential used car buyers.
When buying VW request full maintenance history, otherwise run if engine is turbocharged.
Krzys