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Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow?
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Comments
http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Relationship_between_solar_gener- ation_and_electric_demand_111003025625_Solarpaper11-03.pdf
I am sorry to see that look at this issue as an US vs. Them. Maybe we (Midwest and the plain states) should join with Canada, Eh!
Why do you think that E85 is pushing us to a bigger environmental mess? As compared to ____? (oil sands mining, flaring of gas from oil production, oil spills, contaminated ground and surface water from gasoline and mtbe)
All important issues for sure. Why add to the mess with dumping huge amounts of fertilizers onto the land that leeches into the rivers. It is creating a huge problem in the Gulf of Mexico. The truth is that farmers are producing more, being subsidized more, and still going broke. Growing corn and soy beans in the current manner is not good for the land and is not helping the farmer. I own a farm in Minnesota. Most of it is left go back to native pasture. I could have someone farm it and maybe make a buck or two. More than likely just spend more than I would take in. If you have lived in the Midwest for a while you saw the last rush for ethanol in the 80s. Most of the old ethanol plants are shut down or torn down. We the US taxpayer subsidized those plants. The only ones that made money back then were companies like Verasun and ADM.
It is quite simple. They come in convince the local township to give them land, power and water. In exchange they provide jobs. Then when ethanol goes bust they bail out. Leaving the town with an eyesore and inflated land values to contend with. Maybe the mayor and council got rich. I would like to see a study on the 90+ towns that bought into the last ethanol boom.
It’s not what they are using; it’s what they are using it for.
The issue is not about using food crops for fuel, the issue is the fact that E85 is being shoved down our throats by the big AG’s and the auto industry.
We are loosing 25% energy with E85 when we could be gaining as much as 30% or more energy with Bio diesel. Considering the effort and energy used to make ethanol, would it not make more since to get more bang for the buck?
By the way, if anyone comes up with a way to make fuel out of brussel sprouts, I’m behind you 100%. Not much good for anything else.
Good idea, also the cucumbers that aren't needed for pickles.
I wonder if biodiesel made from soybeans yields more BTUs per acre than ethanol from corn.
"Various renewable fuels can be used to meet the requirements of RFS program, including ethanol and biodiesel. While the RFS program provides the certainty that a minimum amount of renewable fuel will be used in the United States; more can be used if fuel producers and blenders choose to do so."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/biodiesel/
It appears that ethanol is just one option. I should also point out that we consumers have the option of using E10, E85 (FFV) or regular gasoline.
The auto industry is, in my view, making a big mistake in not taking advantage of the higher octane in E85. The current set of products just do not cut the mustard.
"...higher-octane fuels allow for a higher compression ratio - this means less space in a cylinder on its combustion stroke, hence a higher cylinder temperature which improves efficiency according to Carnot's theorem, along with fewer wasted hydrocarbons (therefore less pollution and wasted energy), bringing higher power levels coupled with less pollution overall because of the greater efficiency."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
I would not agree that we lose energy when creating E85. Recent studies from independent researchers are showing that ethanol is somewhat positive. I do agree that biodiesel is better. It is unfortunate that more biodiesel plants are not being built. A big part of the problem actually rests with the users. If we do not demand the product companies will not produce it.
One last point about energy, it is not the Btu to Btu ratio that counts, what counts is the cost of the raw material. For example, it may be cost effective to convert cheaper natural gas to gasoline even if you lose a few btus in the process.
They are actually building a quite a few around the country. We invested in one company that cannot keep up with demand for biodiesel. They mainly sell to the Bay area of CA. The difference is that biodiesel does get government incentives as does ethanol. It is not forced on us to the point it becomes a cost burden. Much of the last price run up in gasoline was a result of the ethanol mix mandate. Refiners and distributors were scrambling to find sources for mixing with gas. Ethanol is plentiful in the midwest. Nearly non existent on the west & east coasts. It cannot be transported through pipelines so every gallon has to be trucked or barged to the point it is needed. It is also mixed at the last point before delivery. It is wrought with negatives that are not outweighed by the positives, IMO.
In terms of the electric vehicle I would constantly be looking at the charge gauge on the trip home. I start my day pretty early so there is not much traffic, but coming home it can get hectic!! Add to this the winter time slow-crawl, and it would be hairy. Defroster going, as well as the heater, sitting in traffic - these are not conditions that batteries like. At the company I used to work we had a few electric vehicle projects, though they were all in warm-weather climes. Even then they were getting hammered as heat is a battery killer too.
In recharging, no one discussing the effects on the power grid, recharge cycle, increased electric bills and the like. If we continue to have summers like we had the past two years, the current grids can't keep up, so add in loads from recharging autos and... :surprise:
What I would like to see are real viable solutions from the Ethanol / electric vehicle standpoints, weighing all the pros and cons.
I don't know if that would be that much of an issue unless your daily commute is near the range of the battery. For me a EV that has a 50 mile range would be more than enough, even if the cold (or hot) weather reduced the range by 50% I would still be getting around with plenty of energy to spare.
In recharging, no one discussing the effects on the power grid, recharge cycle, increased electric bills and the like.
Well recharging would be done at night when electric use is down, as for increased electric bills that will be more than offset by lower gas bills.
Personally I would like to see some system that uses solar panels on the roof of the garage to charge a battery pack or capacitor in the garage that the EV can be plugged into at night, there by reducing your fuel costs that much more.
If we continue to have summers like we had the past two years, the current grids can't keep up, so add in loads from recharging autos
While I can't say for where you are at here in the chicago area we have had a cooler than normal summer. So I say lets keep getting those summers :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Odie
Odie's Carspace
Water is plentiful, and we now have the technology to be able to use plain recycled garbage (Magazines, newspapers, shredded documents that are processed with some sort of plastic covering that would burn very hot for example.) as fuel.
With modern technology and materials we should be able to have a much higher pressures attained or attainable than in the previous endeavors with steam.
Pollution would not be as great, as one item would only be water--pure water. The burnt items (newsprint, etc) would be basically recycled trees; i.e.: wood, another very natural fuel.)
After all, nuclear powerplants operate by heat producing steam; steam which powers the submarines, aircraft carriers of our modern navy and...and steam powers the nuclear powerplants as well.
It might not be as performance minded as we'd like, being accustomed to the high output of gasoline and slightly less of diesel, but it will still allow us to use the automobile for transportation, and not at some distant time in the future force us back into the mode of transportation that the human race had known for all of the centuries previous to the twentieth.
:surprise:
Rocky
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061019/BUSINESS01/610190316/10- 14/BUSINESS01
:surprise:
Rocky
A move by the nation's largest product-safety laboratory to remove its approval of ethanol fuel pumps has frozen the rollout of new ethanol stations and cast doubt on the legal status of the roughly 1,000 stations already selling E85 fuel.
Without certification from Underwriters Laboratories, the company that tests thousands of products for safety and manages the "UL" symbol, state officials and ethanol industry executives say E85 pumps may run afoul of state and local fire codes that require "listed" equipment for pumping fuel. A fire marshal in Columbus, Ohio, ordered two E85 pumps shut down last week because of a lack of UL approval and Michigan officials are wrestling with the question as well.
Mark Griffin, president of the Michigan Petroleum Association, which represents 1,500 stores, said state officials were still wrestling with the question of whether the pumps at Michigan's 26 E85 stations still met state standards, and new pumps wouldn't be available until UL clears up the confusion, which "could be a matter of weeks. It could be months or years."
"Somebody asked whether this thing is heading toward a train wreck," Griffin said. "Well, I don't know."
In a statement, UL said it had no reports of problems with E85 systems, but withdrew its certification due to concerns about how ethanol can corrode parts of the fueling system.
Rocky
Keep reading and posting interesting auto stuff.
Will do my best when time permits.
Rocky
You might better explain that to Indonesia, where the forest fires are making it impossible for planes to land.
You are proposing burning items that are carbon based and will produce a lot of CO2 and other pollutants, including ash.
Again, there are things about an EV that I really don't like and need these things figured out and presented in an all-around manner. Meaning, just don't give me the good, give me the con as well. Myself and others would be more accepting of it if alternatives were presented in that manner.
What do you propose to do with the by products?
We have that already. It's called the Internal Combustion Engine.
And the efficiency (BTU's in the fuel converted to forward motion) is SUBSTANTIALLY higher than burning a fuel (whether it is gasoline, wood pulp, paper, or recycled cow farts) in a steam boiler (particularly if you are trying to have a boiler in a closed system driving a generator to produce on-board electricity to drive a motor).
There's a big reason that locomotives converted from coal-burning steam power to big diesel electrics. It's called progress.
"Ethanol-only cars were sold in Brazil in significant numbers between 1980 and 1995; between 1983 and 1988, they accounted for over 90% of the sales."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
I have worked with another large standardization group called NSF. In general they, like UL, seem to do a decent job. However, I have noticed that as they have gotten larger they become bureaucratic and a bit self serving. Not saying this is the case with UL, but boy, the timing just seems a bit odd.
In the end, I don't think it is going to make a big difference.
It does seem strange that they have had E85 for several years. Maybe UL is just slow on the up take. Or maybe the folks at the various fire depts were not doing their job all this time. Just letting it slide. After all it is big business in the midwest. We still only have ONE commercial E85 pump in all of CA. If it gets shut down, who will notice.
I would agree that towns, local and state governments often roll out the red carpet for businesses. Call centers and auto plants are good examples. Some work, some go bust.
The big difference this time around is that oil and gasoline prices will remain high enough that ethanol will be able to make it in the long run (E10, not so much of the E85). Demand for the oil from the USA, China, Europe and India will keep prices higher. Supply is still fine but we will pay more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oil_Prices_1861_2006.jpg
I am guessing that most people saw the recent headlines
"Demand for gasoline surges as prices take a dive"
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-10-19-driving-more-usat_x.h- tm
and the OPEC decision to try and cut output by 1.2 MBD. This should stop oil prices from dropping. We may even see an increase in gasoline prices back up into the $2.50 range.
On a side note: You mentioned water. In my view, water or lack of, will be the single biggest issue that slows or stops construction of new ethanol plants after the current expansion. Some plants are breaking ground before they have secured water permits - a big problem. In one example I am aware of, a plant assumed the city wells they would inherit had the needed 1,500 gallon per minute capacity. Nope. The wells were only capable of half that rate. The oil sand projects in Canada seem to be running into water issues too.
http://zfacts.com/p/35.html
http://zfacts.com/p/60.html
Farmers are seeing little of the huge profits ethanol refiners like Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) are banking. ... The ethanol explosion began in the 1970's and 1980's, when ADM's chief executive, Dwayne O. Andreas, was a generous campaign contributor and well-known figure in the halls of Congress who helped push the idea of transforming corn into fuel.
Given the glut in corn, the early strategy of Mr. Andreas was to drum up interest in ethanol on the state level among corn farmers and persuade Washington to provide generous tax incentives. But in 1990, when Congress mandated the use of a supplement in gasoline to help limit emissions, ADM lost out to the oil industry, which won the right to use the cheaper methyl tertiary butyl ether, or MTBE, derived from natural gas, to fill the 10 percent fuel requirement.
Past Scandal
Adding to its woes, ADM was marred by scandal in 1996 when several company executives, including one of the sons of Mr. Andreas, were convicted of conspiracy to fix lysine markets. The company was fined $100 million. Since then, ADM's direct political clout in Washington may have waned a bit but it still pursues its policy preferences through a series of trade organizations, notably the Renewable Fuels Association. ...
But ADM has not lost interest in promoting ethanol among farm organizations, politicians and the news media. It is by far the biggest beneficiary of more than $2 billion in government subsidies the ethanol industry receives each year, via a 51-cent-a-gallon tax credit given to refiners and blenders that mix ethanol into their gasoline. ADM will earn an estimated $1.3 billion from ethanol alone in the 2007 fiscal year, up from $556 million this year, said David Driscoll, a food manufacturing analyst at Citigroup. ...
ADM has huge production facilities that dwarf those of its competitors. With seven big plants, the company controls 1.1 billion gallons of ethanol production, or about 24 percent of the country's capacity. ADM can make more than four times what VeraSun, ADM's closest ethanol rival, can produce.
Last year, spurred by soaring energy prices, the ethanol lobby broke through in its long campaign to win acceptance outside the corn belt, inserting a provision in the Energy Policy Act of 2005 that calls for the use of 5 billion gallons a year of ethanol by 2007, growing to at least 7.5 billion gallons in 2012. The industry is now expected to produce about 6 billion gallons next year. ...
From scanning the E85 news today, let's start with this one:
Problems with the Pumps Using E85?
Please feel free to create new discussions as addtional E85 related issues or questions arise. What we want to avoid is trying to talk about every issue in one discussion.
Thanks for your help in making this group a great source of information and discussion about E85.