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Hybrids the Real Payback

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    But one thing is certain there are a lot of current owners chomping at the bit to see what the next iteration will be in Oct 2008

    I am sure there are. They may all buy a new one. The TCH has a much better chance at going mainstream. I don't see Toyota expanding the hybrids to the extent they say they will. I think they like testing the waters with their high flying Lexus toys for the nuevo rich.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Prius. I thought I read recently that the novelty factor is not so big anymore and that they are now being discounted from MSRP unlike the last couple years.
    I think it is a false economy, buying a Prius. If you use your air conditioner a lot you will not see much savings in fuel mileage. That's because the gas motor runs anytime you need the A/C compressor. That's what I read anyway. Also, the cost of repairs and/or replacement of the battery pack may be very expensive and service may not even be readily available away from big cities.
    If you want to buy one because you think you are saving the environment somehow, go ahead. But if you are buying one to save money, you may only be kidding yourself.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Okay - the GX costs less than the Prius, new or used(especially used).

    And the fuel costs the equivalent of **$1.20 a gallon** fueled at home, or 80mpg equivalent to the Prius. Average. Even bought "in town" - it works out to 55mpg. And it gains all of the same carpool advantages as well as pollutes a fraction as much.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    I don't think the Civic GX is workable for most people, especially in suburban or rural places. I never even heard of it or saw one on a lot. As for regular cars, the Prius will get the best mileage in the city, and most people who have them love them, if you can afford them. If not, the Honda Fit gets around 30 mpg even in city driving. Versa and Yaris are less but better than what you have, and all three are under 20k. What size car do you need? If you are looking at a Prius, any of the other 3 would work as well. Also a regular Corolla or Civic.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    They are available, though you have to order one.

    - They pollute less.
    - They get about 30mpg per equivalent amount of BTUS(energy) consumed) compared to gasoline.
    - The engines last nearly forever and have virtually none of the typical problems of a gasoline engine.
    - No batteries to eventually pollute the environment. In fact, the GX actually puts out *cleaner* air than it takes in in most urban areas!
    - It offers the same access advantages
    - Fuel costs 1/3 what it currently does here in Los Angeles. Since natural gas is regulated and heavily subsidized - even offering lower cost plans to the poor(!), it's virtually immune to major price hikes, since any major movement will result in 30 million old people calling congress.
    - The only tradeoff is a 200 mile range between fillups. but you can get a device that allows you to fill from your garage every night.

    I don't drive to work more than 200 miles - shoot, maybe that in a WEEK. It works perfectly well as a commuter car.

    http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+GX
    They say California and New York, but it's possible to order one directly from most any dealer. Lots of used ones can be found as well.

    http://www.fabwest.com/index.html
    This page is good as well - yes, 95 CENTS a gallon equivalent.

    http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/findpane.asp
    Locator run by the DOE.

    Every major city has them because the local busses and vehicles they use tend to be CNG as of late - and they are mandated by law to allow/sell fuel to CNG passenger vehicles at those locations. There are 191 locations in California alone.
  • timhooligantimhooligan Member Posts: 8
    Ok, let me start by saying that I just purchased a Prius a couple days ago because gas is $3.50/gallon and you can now buy a Prius for invoice. Paid about $24k. Even got Navigation, bluetooth, etc etc. Can't think of many cars you can buy for $24k with nav. Let alone 50mpg+.

    As for the AC and no gas savings, that's just wrong. The AC runs on the ELECTRIC system. As long as you have a sufficient charge, the ICE (gas) engine stays off. So far in 93 degree heat and 70 mile commutes, I'm averaging 49mpg. That's a HUGE improvement.

    On the subject of battery replacement, that's yet to be seen. Toyota offers a 7yr/100k warranty on hybrid system, so that's a piece of mind. I have yet to hear from an owner who has had to replace their battery. (this could be because the segment of owners with 100k+ miles is still low)

    Think about this though. At 100k miles, ALL cars need maintenence. My Infiniti was a $$$$ to maintain. Belts, spark plugs, radiators, brakes. Those aren't FREE on any cars. The hybrid is not exception.

    Do the math: I drive 15,000 miles/year.
    Old car - 20mpg. 15k/20 = 750g/yr
    New car - 50mpg. 15k/50 = 300g/yr

    Premium fuel for old car = $3.50/g * 750g = $2625/yr
    regular fuel for Prius = $3.30/g * 300g = $900/yr

    I'm saving ~ $1725/yr in gas alone! Over the next 7 years, that's $12,075 I have saved.

    If a battery replacement at 7 years is $3000, i'm still ahead by $9000+

    To me, it's completely worth it.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, I get it. But you are not really being fair in your comparison.
    You are comparing your old car to the new Prius. But what kind of car was your old car?
    A better comparison might be comparing a new fuel efficient ICE car to a new Prius. You could have bought either. That is the true comparison to be considered.
    How about comparing it to a Toyota or Honda or Hyundai or Nissan, each with only an ICE?
    And don't tell me about no navigation available in them. If you really have to have one, you could get a portable.

    So the A/C runs off the battery so long as it has sufficient charge? That's probably not for long when it gets hot. Your gas motor is running most of the time you have the A/C on. You are getting good gas mileage on long commutes because the gas engine is pretty efficient, not because of the electric motor. The electric motor helps out in town a lot I'm sure, so long as the battery, is sufficiently charged, but it just does not stay charged for long with the A/C on and no ICE running to charge the battery.
    But really, I'm glad it's all worth it to you.
  • jdkahlerjdkahler Member Posts: 50
    We own a Highlander Hybrid (same electric AC and other functions as Prius) and it does better on mileage in summer than winter, with AC running, for a number of factors. It's important to note that the ICE is only one of the ways that the batteries are charged, in city driving there's often sufficient braking and downhills to have regenerative braking do the charging, with the ICE called on when the motor/battery are not sufficient to move the vehicle. On a drive around town today I happened to be watching the charge/run on battery/ICE gauge and due to the route I was on, with a little easy on the accelerator, the ICE was off a good deal of the time. The Prius is much lighter and gets much better mileage than the Highlander (since it needs the ICE less to actually move the car), but the physics are the same. In general with the HH, with AC on the ICE seldom if ever has to run at a stop, including stopping for 5-10 minutes at convenience stores and such where the HH is left occupied with the AC on for the comfort of the passengers.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    What gas mileage are you getting in summer vs. winter? And what reasons do you think explain why its better in winter?

    My point was that a Prius getting 49 MPG on a 70 mile commute (with or without A/C on) is not so fantastic as to justify many thousands more in purchase price. There are non-hybrids doing that too (or very close to it).

    Yes, I understand about charging the battery by going downhill and coasting, but most drivers who go downhill and coast also have to go uphill and accelerate. It is the uphill and accelerating which drain the battery. And if the battery is also being called on to run the A/C in hot weather that ICE is going to be on quite a bit of the time. I am not surprised that the ICE is not needed with A/C on at a stopsign. That's because the batteries are ONLY being used to run the A/C but not power the car then.

    There still ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
  • jdkahlerjdkahler Member Posts: 50
    Mileage - 26-27 in mostly city/short distance driving, on the road in the past this has been 28-30. Yes, not the best you could possibly do in a vehicle, but in comparison with similar vehicles of similar size, carrying capacity and weight it's about 20% better. and it's 10-12 mpg better than the van it replaced.

    Since we've had the HH for almost 2 years and been involved in these discussions that long, if someone is looking at pure dollars saved vs cost of a hybrid may not be the best choice. But if you add in lower emissions, better mileage than equivalent vehicles and personal factors (driveability, features, etc.) then the total package, in this case anyway, is what we believed to be an excellent choice. But we also buy 100% wind generated electricity, which is more expensive than conventional, since we perceive the overall value to be greater.

    A little more on hybrid function, we're both oversimplifying the battery/ICE function. In city driving, there is typically enough stop and go to keep the batteries charged, which means they can step in any time the ICE is not needed to move the vehicle. This means stops, downhills, even from time to time accelerating and moving in traffic. So fuel use then is 0. If this was a non-hybrid the engine would be running in all cases, using fuel. Note that some hybrids need to run the engine for some functions like AC that Toyotas do not. When the ICE is needed, Toyota runs it in the range where it is at its most efficient, and the motor is used to provide assistance when practical. In the case of the HH, Toyota decided to program the vehicle to use the motor for power/torque more than fuel efficiency. Still, the Highlander Hybrid does better than the non-hybrid Highlander, and when you do a true feature to feature comparison the Hybrid premium, at least when we bought, came to something like $4-5000. Over the 7-8 years we hope to own the HH, that comes to a premium of about $5-600/year, and at current use and price of gas I estimate we save about $355 over an equivalent non-hybrid Highlander. So the premium isn't all that much a year, the fuel savings are real (meaning it's that much less oil we need to import and I pay for at $3.10/gal+) and the air is cleaner. Just like the wind power, it's a premium we're willing to pay. Oh, yes, 3 years ago we also moved to within a 20 minute walk, 4 minute drive to work, reducing the commute from 45 minutes/30 miles.

    We all make choices for a complex number of reasons, to bring it to a simple "I might not get back the higher immediate cost by not saving enough on gas" may be a good reason for some to not buy a Prius or other hybrid, but that's just for some. For those who have chosen a Prius, Highlander Hybrid or other vehicle, it should be what works for them, and it should be a fully informed decision with input from many different viewpoints. Then, to each his own.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    But why do you get better fuel mileage in summer than in winter? And how much is the difference?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Using the new more accurate 2008 EPA measuring standards, if you compare a 2007 Prius to a loaded 2007 Hyundai Elantra you'll save about $675 a year on gasoline (based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, and 15000 annual miles when regular gasoline costs $3.22 per gallon) with the Prius.
    The Prius rating is 48/45 EPA mpg city/highway.
    Elantra is rated at 25/33 EPA mpg city/highway.
    The Prius cost you $24,000 with nav. The Elantra Limited, loaded with automatic transmission, leather seats, sunroof and a portable nav unit can be had for about $18,000.
    So after about 9 years of driving (133,000 miles) you'd just then break even on the cars. Until that point, the Hyundai would be more economical to own and operate so far as purchase price and fuel costs go.
    As for warranties, the Prius has 3/36 and 5/60.
    The Elantra warranty is good for 5/60 and 10/100.
    That means (for the Elantra) 5 years/60,000 miles bumper to bumper, and 10 years/100,000 miles on the powertrain. Warranty info from car.com.
    My guess is the Prius will cost much more to maintain and repair during those 9 years of driving.
    In 7 years you figure you'll save $12,075 with the Prius.
    In my more fair comparison you may find you'll spend $12,000 more with the Prius.

    Anyone else see it my way?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You forgot tax, registration, insurance, financing, and so on on the more expensive car. But you do get HOV access in some areas with the Prius, which can be a big deal to some people.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    So then moneywise, the Prius is even a worse deal than I was guessing, right? Maybe a Prius would cost a person $20,000 more over seven years. Or maybe $14,000? Or $16,000. Depends a lot on what repairs will be needed on the Prius after the warranty expires.
    I just can't see any way the Prius is a money saver over a fully loaded Hyundai Elantra. And the Elantra has more space inside too.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I'd say that the figure is maybe the price difference plus 3-4K. There's a reason that Honda is skipping its Accord hybrid and going to the diesel instead. Same efficiency and loads less total cost to own.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is also a price the automakers have to consider. They are forced to warranty the hybrid system and battery in CA for 10 years. That is a long time for those components to sit in the hot sun and continue to work. Most people only consider the 150k miles which is not the real test.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    NO internal combustion automobiles get 49 mpg. There are NO i.c.e. cars even EPA rated at 49 mpg.

    The regular Honda Civic is rated for 40 mpg on the highway, but NOBODY gets that kind of mileage. That's based on the flawed EPA testing, which uses a top speed of 50 mph, accelerates at only 3 mph per second, doesn't factor in stopping or slowing, and uses no air conditioning.

    The EPA has revised its testing method, and will publish new figures for the 2008 model year. You can see them now at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg. They're all 10-20% lower.

    So, the 49 mpg the Prius owner cites is not only superior, but it's a real-world number. My new Honda Civic Hybrid averages 47 mpg in mixed city/highway driving. No standard cars can match those numbers.

    As for the apples-to-apples comparison, a Prius vs. a Corolla or a Civic Hybrid vs. a regular Civic -- the payback for the hybrid is 100,000 miles with gasoline at $3 per gallon.

    If you drive 12,000 miles per year, that's an 8 year payback (probably not worth it). If you drive 25,000 miles per year, as I do, it's a 4 year payback, and definitely worth it. And if gas goes to $4, that payback will be less than 3 years.

    As for maintenance issues; there aren't any. Toyota has been making the Prius since the late 1990s. Honda released its first hybrid, the Insight, in 2000. Both models continue to run nearly problem-free to this day. The technology has proven itself.

    But here's the real issue: OPEC keeps limiting oil production, market traders keep driving up gas prices despite increases in inventory, and the government prohibits new refineries, forces the existing ones to shut down twice a year to change formulas, and offers $100,000 tax breaks to gas-guzzling truck owners.

    The entire system is rigged.

    We hybrid buyers simply choose to give our money to innovative car companies that offer the best engine technology and efficiency, rather than giving the same money to a cartel of oil producers, refiners and government taxing authorities who all work in collusion to keep the price of gasoline high and automobile fuel efficiency low.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Prius is rated 45 on the highway by EPA.
    Hybrids need maintenance and repairs too.
    Many owners of ICE cars do report 40+ on the highway.
    Honda Civic Hybrid is rated by EPA at 40/45 city/highway. Since you average 4-5 mpg higher than the EPA number, why do you doubt ICE owners when they say they get 40+ on the highway?
    The example stated earlier of Prius vs. Elantra is not flawed so far as I can see. What objections do you have about that?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    If a Prius can get 45+ mpg on the highway why wouldn't a standard ICE be able to do the same? Isn't a Prius running strictly off it's ICE during long stretches of highway driving?
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    "Many owners of ICE cars do report 40+ on the highway."

    Certainly, owners of the only four standard cars rated at 40 mpg highway -- Toyota Yaris, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Mini Cooper -- MIGHT match the old EPA rating IF they drive at 55 mph on a flat road with no traffic and don't use the air conditioning. But how often is that?

    My 47 mpg is a real world, city/highway combined number. That's what I average everywhere I go -- stop and start traffic in the city, and 70 mph on I-35.

    The Prius owner's 49 mpg is quite believable, too. Toyota has a better hybrid system than Honda, and consequently gets better mileage. Unfortunately, the Toyota doesn't have enough leg room for me, and the Honda does, so I bought the Civic.

    "Prius is rated 45 on the highway by EPA."

    That's the REVISED 2008 number. The original rating was 60 mpg. The 40/45 rating for the Civic Hybrid also is the new one. The original was 49/51.

    I know that I get 47 because the engine's computer calculates and displays my mpg every 10 seconds. The Prius has the same feature.

    "The example stated earlier of Prius vs. Elantra is not flawed so far as I can see. What objections do you have about that?"

    My main objection is comparing a Toyota to a Hyundai. It's an apple-to-orange comparison. The post immediately following this one compares a Prius to a Corolla. That's a Macintosh apple-to-Granny Smith apple comparison.

    The only TRUE hybrid vs. i.c.e comparison is the Honda Civic vs. Civic hybrid. They're exactly the same body styles, interiors and levels of comfort. The only difference is the propulsion system. And, as I stated in my previous post, the payback is 100,000 miles with gas at $3/gallon.

    Now, we're all going to drive 100,000 miles by some point in time. The only question is who will get our money as we do -- OPEC and their co-conspirators, or a car company. I choose to give my money to Honda.

    BTW, the IRS allows a $2,100 income tax credit for Civic Hybrid buyers. A true comparison has to factor that into the price vs. payback debate.

    "If a Prius can get 45+ mpg on the highway why wouldn't a standard ICE be able to do the same? Isn't a Prius running strictly off it's ICE during long stretches of highway driving?"

    Hybrid cars use their electric motors in all phases of driving. During acceleration from a stop, climbing an uphill grade, etc. the battery kicks in and saves gas. Then the battery recharges itself during deceleration and coasting down hills.

    Cars require a lot of power to get moving, but very little to maintain that movement. So the gas/electric hybrid is the perfect mix. And as battery technology improves, so will the mpg ratings.

    Toyota will offer an improved Prius for the 2009 model year. Expect to see increases in efficiency and passenger comfort.

    Even Hyundai plans to offer a hybrid Accent for 2009. I doubt it'll be comfortable, but I'm certain that it'll be inexpensive.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You also forget the increased initial cost of the Prius. That you pay a lot more money, plus interest, plus insurance, plus registration and taxes... It's not a 4-5 year difference. It's 10+.

    Consider:
    Corolla: 31mpg avg.
    Prius: 46mpg avg.
    (re-tested EPA figures)

    That's a 32.6% increase. Figure you drive 20,000 miles. To drive 20,000 miles($3 a gallon - note, higher gas prices help your Prius efficiency argument):

    Corolla: 645 gallons
    Prius: 435 gallons
    Net savings: 210 gallons. $630 a year.

    Prices(cars direct, los angeles):
    Top-end Corolla LE(with automatic added): Net Cost: $13,964
    Base Prius: CarsDirect Price: $21,592

    Note, this is the top-end Corolla, too - not the stripper CE which is $12,419 with stickshift.

    21,592 - 13,964 = $7,628. That's 12 years just to recoup the base price alone. Add in the other expenses and it's 15+ years at 20K miles a year.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Apples to apples is good. That's why all the EPA ratings I quoted were the revised 2008 ones.
    The original EPA estimates on hybrids were way too high. So it is the hybrids which have had their mileage estimates reduced the most under the 2008 standards.
    The owners of those ICE cars who get 40+ real world figures on the highway also know their cars return that MPG. They have experienced and calculated it, maybe even more accurately than your 10 second computer does. I have, in real world figures, exceeded EPA highway figures at 75 mph and higher with ICE, with a full load and A/C running in both of my cars. If I can do it, why can't they?
    Your 47 mixed claim is above the EPA numbers. Why do you doubt ICE owners mileage accomplishments?
    The tax credit is very interesting. For a person able to use the credit, it certainly should be figured in as an advantage for the hybrid.
    A Civic compared to an Elantra is not a bad comparison. Many people compare the two and choose the Elantra.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Hybrid cars use their electric motors in all phases of driving. During acceleration from a stop, climbing an uphill grade, etc. the battery kicks in and saves gas. Then the battery recharges itself during deceleration and coasting down hills.

    Here's an experiment that I'd like to see done. Take a Prius and go 300 miles on I-10 Through Texas at 65 mph. Now take this car and somehow disable the hybrid systems and drive the same 300 miles. Would the one with the hybrid system intact get better mileage? If so I would really like to know how? I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying I don't understand how it can be possible.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have an even better test. Take that same trip with a Prius driving at 75 MPH so you do not get run over on I10. Then take a Prius with that same gas engine and a CVT dumping the 400-500LBs of hybrid stuff and see what mileage you would get. I don't think it would be near enough difference to justify the $5000+ worth of hybrid components. In these comparisons with other cars the CD drag of the Prius is left out. That is significant at higher speeds.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Better go 85 or 90 if you don't want to get run over. In west Texas, I think the daytime speed limit is 80 mph on I-10.

    And what is CD drag? Do you mean coefficient of drag drag? That would be wind resistance. It does not vary with weight. But yeah, other things being equal, a lighter car should get better fuel economy.

    Where the hybrid really shines is in town when a lot of accelerating away from dead stops is done. In that case, if only the electric motor is used, the gas mileage should be WAY better than a car with only an ICE.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    The original EPA estimates were too high for ALL CARS, not only hybrids. Check the old vs. new figures for yourself.

    And claiming that owners of i.c.e. cars calculate their mpg better than my hybrid's computer? Get real.

    Guys, how many times do I need to say this?

    My 47 mpg figure is what I get every day, everywhere -- NOT JUST HIGHWAY. I understand that SOME i.c.e. cars can exceed EPA numbers SOMETIMES. But "sometimes" means nothing in the real world. Comparing anomolies with the every day numbers that hybrids turn out truly is apples to oranges!

    As for the experiment that involves disabling the hybrid's batteries then comparing mpg, the EPA already effectively did that. They drove the Honda Civic and the Civic Hybrid. You can see the figures for both at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg.

    The regular Civic gets 25/36, and the Civic Hybrid gets 40/45.

    The regular Civic's MSRP is $19,510. The Civic Hybrid's MSRP is $22,600.

    The hybrid gets 40% more mpg, and costs 16% more than the i.c.e. Civic. That extra $3,100 for the hybrid works out to an extra $89 per month on a 36 month payment schedule. The hybrid will save the average (15,000 miles per year) driver $40 per month in gasoline. So the Civic Hybrid owner pays a net extra $1,800 over three years to buy the hybrid. However, he receives an immediate $2,100 income tax credit when he purchases the hybrid.

    Hybrids are a good deal!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know, I realized my double after I posted. My point being the Prius is very good at slipping through the air. How well would it do as an ICE only car without all the Hybrid crap?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Down through the years there have been many cars that would get 45+ MPG. Including the Honda CRX. Which is a lot more fun to drive than any hybrid. There are several VW TDI models that the owner get high 40s day in and day out.

    Lastly if you trust the on board computer for mileage reading and think it is better than calculated, It isn't.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    It is better, but I also calculate my own mileage, too, just for fun.

    Here, you try it:

    My last tank got me 540 miles and the re-fill took 11.3 gallons of gas. I filled it until the second time the nozzle clicked off, so you know it was a complete fill.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    As for the experiment that involves disabling the hybrid's batteries then comparing mpg, the EPA already effectively did that

    My background is in engineering. Not automotive but we all learn the same physics. The only way the hybrid can get better mileage on the highway than the ICE is by using its electric motor. Since this electric motor gets its power from a battery pack that requires that it is more efficient for the ICE to charge the battery pack than use this energy for propulsion. That's the sticking point that I can't get around. I'm really not interested in the highway mileage your getting; I'm sure it's very good. I'm interested in someone providing a plausible explanation of how hybrid technology was necessary in achieving this highway mpg.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Here are the mpg figures from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg :

    1990 Honda Civic CRX HF -- 36 city / 44 hwy

    This car is a two-seater with a manual transmission. It doesn't compare to the Civic Hybrid, a four-door sedan with a CVT automatic.

    However, it DOES compare to the Honda Insight, another two-seat car that even looks similar. The insight gets 48/58 -- 30% better.

    2006 Volkswagen Jetta TDI -- 30 city / 38 hwy

    You can only buy the 2006 model, because the federal gov't enacted tougher diesel emission requirements for 2007, and the TDI doesn't meet them. But this car is a better comparison to the Civic Hybrid because it has four doors and an automatic.

    However the VW's MSRP is $21,600 vs the 2007 Civic Hybrid's $22,600. The VW saves you $1000, but gets 30% worse mpg. Diesel currently costs 20 cents per gallon less than gasoline (7%), but that difference doesn't offset the hybrids superior efficiency.

    Incidentally, I paid $21,400 for my 07 Civic Hybrid ($1200 below msrp). I hear that the 06 TDIs are selling for above msrp because of limited availability. I can't confirm that, but if it's true, then any comparison would skew further in favor of the hybrid.

    Face it guys: HYBRIDS ROCK !!!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, check the numbers. The hybrids had their EPA numbers reduced more on a percentage basis than most ICE cars. The hybrids were WAY off before 2008.
    A calculator held in hand dividing miles per fill-up by the number of gallons pumped into the tank IS MORE ACCURATE than dashboard computers. There have been dozens of people who have attested to that in here. So get real!
    Your real world gas mileage is no more valid than ICE owners real world every day gas mileage. Not every hybrid owner gets the same mileage as you claim. Hybrid owners may sometimes get higher than EPA numbers. Sometimes they get less too, just like ICE owners.
    MSRPs really don't mean much. It is the actual selling prices that matter. But yes, looking at your figures it appears Honda Civics at MSRP are way overpriced. I have come to that conclusion many times. Is that what you were showing?
    The EPA did not run a test similar to what the poster was mentioning. Why? Because the Civic Hybrid gas motor is a 1.3 liter, 93 horsepower motor. The regular Civic has a 1.8 liter motor making 140 horsepower.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The Civic Hybrid can get better mileage on the highway (even when its electic motor is not contributing power) than a regular Civic because the hybrid's gas motor is only a 1.3 liter 93 HP motor, not the regular 1.8 liter, 140 HP motor of the regular Civic.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, that is a good question. The Prius is a slippery car through the air.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Of course when other taxpayers all chip in to help you buy your car, that does tend to reduce its cost to you.
    I wonder if anyone out there paying taxes resents subsidizing your new car purchase?
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Taxpayers are free to resent my $2,100 tax credit.

    I'm free to resent the $100,000 accelerated depreciation tax credits that business owners of Hummers receive.

    We can all find things to resent in the U.S. tax code.

    Some people can find things to resent about hybrids.

    But the numbers don't lie.

    HYBRIDS ROCK !!!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Touche!
    Tax code sucks! No argument from me about that.

    Ok, sure, hybrids on average get much better gas mileage than most ICE cars. But at a cost.
    For a person who drives 15,000 miles a year or less the hybrid just does not make much sense so far as I can see.
    I'd buy that Elantra Limited instead. It's a nicer car too.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    "Civic Hybrid gas motor is a 1.3 liter, 93 horsepower motor. The regular Civic has a 1.8 liter motor making 140 horsepower."

    OOOPS!! You forgot to include the hybrid's electric motor power output in your comparison. Here are the real numbers:

    2007 Honda Civic -- 140 hp / 128 ft.-lb. torque

    2007 Civic Hybrid -- 110 hp / 123 ft.-lb. torque

    Much more than 93 horsepower, and nearly identical torque to the i.c.e. Civic. Anyway, the mpg numbers remain superior for the hybrid, no matter what speed you drive.

    HYBRIDS ROCK !!!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    yeah, I know about the electric motor, but the poster was wondering what the car would do on highway mpg without the electric motor. I was showing the little motor SHOULD get better mpg with or without the electric kicking in on the highway. That's what he was wondering about, but the difference in ICE makes the comparison lopsided.

    HYBRIDS COST!!!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The EPA testifies that the Civic hybrid gets 49 mpg in city driving and 51 on the highway. But those numbers are rarely achieved. To get mileage in the high-40-mpg range requires gradual acceleration, timid cruising speeds, and cautious use of the throttle. Suffer a short lapse in concentration or accelerate immoderately, and fuel economy will suffer. Fact is, to do this right, you will drive more slowly than you ever have.
    Operating the hybrid to get the best fuel economy reveals little from a driving-dynamics standpoint. You’re not going to read here about how the Civic understeers (it does) or lift-throttle oversteers because the car’s performance isn’t tied to speed. Instead, our intention is to explain what the hybrid can do and how to do it. Over about 1000 miles of mostly highway driving and with a variety of uncaring editors who cheated their way through ninth-grade algebra, we got 40 mpg, far short of the EPA figures
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Civic Hybrid has strange interior and exterior design, uncomfortable front seats, occasional whirring and beeping noises, and is slow.
    Honda has decided not to offer adjustable lumbar support; the result feels as if the small of your back were resting on a Duraflame log. It’s uncomfortable to the point of being a deal breaker.
    In a hybrid, the trick is to drive like a grandmother. You have to accelerate away from a stop slowly enough to minimize the role of the gasoline engine and maximize the role of the electric motor. Very simply, hybrids use an electric motor as a supporting source of power that doesn’t require gasoline, and that’s the whole point. Indeed, a Toyota Prius can pull away from a stop using only its electric motor, although the Civic hybrid cannot.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just as the EPA was off on Hybrids it is off on diesels the other direction. Many Jetta TDI owners are getting in the 45-50 MPG range. Just as you have posted your mileage and I believe you, I also believe them. When faced with the complexity and the CVT transmission failures from Honda, I would say a person would not see a payback on owning a hybrid vs a VW TDI. Especially over the long haul of 8-10 years. Too many things with the hybrid drive system to fail. All high cost replacement items. You are right that many of the limited number of 2006 Jetta TDI models are bringing MSRP and above. It is supply and demand. I can remember people paying $35k for an Accord Hybrid. Now they are selling for $10k less. Makes the resale very poor. Another downside to hybrids as they reach the end of the warranty is a big loss of value. I hope yours pays off and it is good car that you are happy with.

    These are just my opinions and some of the reasons I decided against owning a Hybrid back in 2001.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    ...most of the time. Car & Driver says in a Civic Hybrid with the A/C on, at a stop, the electric compressor keeps the cabin cool. As soon as you lift your foot off the brake, the gas engine whirs to life again.

    Honda Civic Hybrid

    FUEL ECONOMY
    C/D-observed: 40 mpg

    INTERIOR
    SAE volume, front seat: 52 cu ft
    rear seat: 39 cu ft
    luggage: 10 cu ft

    ENGINE
    Type: inline-4, aluminum block and head
    Bore x stroke: 2.87 x 3.15 in, 73.0 x 80.0mm
    Displacement: 82 cu in, 1339cc
    Compression ratio: 10.8:1
    Fuel-delivery system: port injection
    Valve gear: chain-driven single overhead cam, 2 valves per cylinder, hydraulic lifters, variable
    intake-and-exhaust-valve timing and lift
    Power (SAE net): 93 bhp @ 6000 rpm
    Torque (SAE net): 89 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm
    Redline: 6300 rpm

    ELECTRIC MOTOR
    Type: brushless DC electric motor powered by 132 1.2-volt nickel-metal hydride batteries
    Power (SAE net): 20 bhp @ 2000 rpm
    Torque (SAE net): 66 lb-ft @ 0–1160 rpm
    Redline: 6300 rpm

    C/D TEST RESULTS
    ACCELERATION: Seconds (full charge, part charge)
    Zero to 30 mph: 4.0, 4.4
    40 mph: 5.9, 6.5
    50 mph: 8.1, 9.1
    60 mph: 10.8, 12.3
    70 mph: 14.4, 16.4
    80 mph: 19.2, 21.7
    90 mph: 26.2, 29.2
    100 mph: 37.6, 41.4
    Street start, 5–60 mph: 12.5, —
    Top-gear acceleration,
    30–50 mph: 6.0, —
    50–70 mph: 8.4, —
    Standing 1/4-mile: 18.3 sec @ 78 mph, 19.1 sec @ 75 mph

    FUEL ECONOMY
    C/D-observed: 40 mpg
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The Hyundai Accent 4 door sedan has 92.2 cubic feet for passengers. The Civic Hybrid has only 91 cubic feet. The Elantra has 98 cubic feet.
    So maybe the Hyundai Accent is the better car to compare to the Civic Hybrid. The Accent should be cheaper to own and operate than the Elantra.
    Edmunds True Cost To Own for the Accent is $35,206 (5 years)
    Edmunds True Cost To Own for the Civic Hy. $34,797 (5 years)
    After the 3rd year or 36,000 miles the Civic's warranty is used up. The Accent still has an additional 2 years and 24,000 miles bumper to bumper and then in years 6 through 10 up to 100,000 miles the drivetrain is covered with a $0 deductible.
    The Accent and Civic Hybrid have about the same performance and size. The horsepower of each is the same according to Edmunds' and Motor Trend's websites.
    The Elantra Limited has more equipment features than the Civic. The Accent has less than the other two.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Well I suspect that there would be speeds where the 1.8L actually got better mileage. There are highways in this country with posted 75 mph limits. On the ones I'm familiar with the traffic generally runs close to 80 mph. I wonder what kind of mileage a 1.3L engine will deliver at 80 mph. I'm guessing it would be no better than the 1.8L, maybe worse.

    Anyway, that's not really what I was asking. I want to pull all the hybrid gear out of the 1.3L Civic. Line it up next to the hybrid and put 5 gallons of gas in each car. Now send them down the highway together at 65 mph. No starting or stopping or steep grades to deal with. Like I said, I-10 through Texas. If the hybrid can actually travel further then I'd like to know how?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Good idea. Buy two. Gut one. Let us know the outcome.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    This whole thread has degenerated into a rejection of hybrids based on speculation and false assumptions:

    "Hey, if you took out the electric motor, hybrids wouldn't be so good!"

    "Hey, a Hyundai costs less than a Honda, so hybrids are a rip-off!"

    "Hey, 17 years ago, my buddy's Yugo got almost 40 mpg, so hybrids suck!"

    I've shown you guys the numbers. I've done the math for you. I've done the cost/benefit analysis for you. It's all there for you in this thread.

    If you're content to ignore factual statements and mathematic equations, while continuing to bleat out that i.c.e. cars are superior, then keep driving your gas hogs. Believe me, OPEC, Exxon, and government tax collectors thank you.

    They love you!

    Meanwhile, my Civic Hybrid averages 47 mpg. Here's photographic proof:

    http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34640&page=5



    HYBRIDS ROCK !!!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Based on speculation and assumptons you have made, you are guessing the hybrid will work out well for you for many years to come. I hope it does. Good luck with that.
    Your opinions of what the facts are in your situation are not necessarily the same as what another person may think if he were in your position.
    Hybrids are not the best choice for everyone.
    And photos don't prove anything. They may be offered as evidence, but that's it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can see your position and anyone forced to drive 25k miles per year. A HCH or Prius is probably a good choice. I would slit my wrists if I had to put up with driving that many miles a year. So a hybrid makes little sense to me. The only way I would consider a hybrid car is if it had a bumper to bumper 10 year warranty.

    The thread deals with payback on hybrids. You are new to the forum so you probably missed the 1000s of posts for and against hybrids since 2001. Most hybrid owners will concede that you cannot buy a hybrid strictly on a money saving basis.

    If you drive the average 15k miles per year you will only save $304 per year on gas with the hybrid Civic over the EX Civic. That is with all other expenses being equal. With the $3200 difference in price it will take you 10.5 years to break even. With the Civic EX you still have the $3200 in the bank after 10.5 years.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Civic EX averages 29 mpg (revised EPA)

    Civic Hybrid averages 42 mpg (revised EPA)

    15,000 miles / 29 mpg = 517 gallons x $3/gal. = $1,551

    15,000 miles / 42 mpg = 357 gallons x $3/gal. = $1,071

    $1,551 - $1,071 = $480 annual gas savings with hybrid.

    -------------------------------------

    Civic EX msrp $19,510

    Civic Hybrid msrp $22,600

    $3,100 difference / $480 annual gas savings = 6.5 yr. payback (not 10.5 years).

    That's on 15,000 miles per year.

    On 25,000 miles per year, the gas savings amount is $800/yr., so the payback is 3.9 years.

    --------------------------------------------

    And that's with $3 gas. Guess what happens if the price of gas keeps going up?

    $3.50/gal: 15K = 5.5 yr. payback, 25K = 3.3 yr. payback

    $4.00/gal: 15K = 4.8 yr. payback, 25K = 2.9 yr. payback

    Considering that gas already hit $3.50 in Illinois and touched $4.00 in some areas of California, those future prices seem likely. Even this forum contains a thread "What will you do when gas prices rise above $4 a gallon?"

    Everyone expects it, which means OPEC knows it can get away with it, which means that by this time next year we'll probably be paying $4/gallon.

    When it happens, even all you critics will be saying .....

    HYBRIDS ROCK !!!
This discussion has been closed.