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Plug-in Hybrids
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Comments
Daytime use of electricity for any purpose strains the grid. The fact that PHEVs will be a newcomer to the demand picture should in no way impact the legitimacy of their access to grid electricity. If it turns out that there isn't enough electricity to meet demand I'd rather see the more discretionary uses of electricity be cut back on. The person who has replaced some of his oil consumption with electricity is doing something positive. The housewife sitting home watching Oprah on her big screen TV is not.
some fantastic advances going on. I read about a way they may be able to store solar energy without batteries at generation plants for a short period of time.
I have been in my prius for 5.5 years and 98,000 miles, but intend to stay in it until I can buy a car with a plug (crossing fingers for a Volt in 2010).
You can't wave a magic wand and say, "X- percent of vehicles will have zero emmisions by this date" and expect the technology to just appear. It would be just as silly to say that the manufacturers need to produce a certain percentage of their cars that can run on hydrogen by 2015.
Geez, everybody needs to put down the "everything is a conspiracy" book once in a while
I say let the market control what happens. If GM cannot sell big SUVs because of the price of gas, let them build a hybrid or EV to compete with the other automakers. The EV-1 mess was a direct result of a CA ZEV mandate that was Stupid to start with. Now CA wants to control CO2. We have some of the worst politicians in Sacramento to be found on the face of the earth. Controlled by a few elitist in Hollywood.
Gas is very expensive now. Something similar to the EV-1 might sell in relatively small quantities now. Something like the Volt has a much larger market and GM is planning to build it in quantity (more than 100,000 units).
We would have bought it in a SECOND, even for $25K if need be. The local electric company (SRP) tweaked one of their EV-1s and got it 0-60 in less than 4 seconds.
There were plenty of available buyers for the EV-1 based on the number of cars built.
No one told GM they had to sell 200,000 of them a year. Just selling and supporting the ones they built would have been sufficient.
Killing the program and crushing the cars was a cheapskate move, and GM should be shamed for that FOREVER.
My favorite distortion was that the EV-1s were crushed out of some evil intent. GM couldn't afford to have a handful of unsupported vehicles in the hands of who knows who, and who might sue for many stupid reasons.
These EV fanatics would have jumped at he chance to sign it as long as they can have their hands on these electric cars.
I am sure they would have. That is less than the battery cost. Those cars were in the $70k to build range. Just as you pointed out the owners would have wanted GM to warranty them. When CA dropped the ZEV mandate they killed any incentive to sell EVs. Pure and simple it was government that was to blame. It was just business for GM. They got money from the PNGV program and used it to build the EV-1. At least NiMH batteries were perfected as a result of our tax payer money being wasted.
I felt GM should have handed them over to the government and they could have been used or given to universities etc. GM could have said here they are, as is, where is.
As far as the PNGV program, it was FAR from a waste of money. As you pointed out, hybrid batteries were one result. The other result was forcing Honda and Toyota to take battery power seriously, which in effect created the hybrid situation.
So the stepping stones to future alternative-energy vehicles will look something like this:
EV-1
Gasoline/Electric Hybrids
PHEVs ?
Fuel Cell?
????
????
Regardless, the end result will be wonderful.
Toyota: "We'll have a PHEV by 2010 in the USA"
Awesome if they can do it !!!
Yours:
EV-1
Gasoline/Electric Hybrids
PHEVs ?
Fuel Cell?
Mine:
-High-efficieny ICE (lose the excess weight and power, max emissions controls)
-Current hybrids, light cars only (max Camry sized, larger don't make $$ sense)
-Turbo diesels for larger vehicles if a drop in relative fuel cost
-PHEVs once batteries available
-100% electric city cars using those batteries
Right now, I don't see:
-Fuel cells (no reasonable hydrogen source, better to use the electricity charging batteries)
-Turbo diesel hybrids ($$ don't make sense)
-NG vehicles (too much $$ for filling equipment, no major advantage over gasoline).
I don't think so. Toyota does not plan to sell their Plug-in Hybrid to you or I.
Toyota Motor plans to produce lithium ion batteries next year for a plug-in hybrid vehicle available in 2010.
The company on Wednesday said that the plug-in hybrid will be "geared toward fleet customers in Japan, (the) United States, and Europe."
Could mean a few things.
1. They know they cannot make them price competitive with NiMH for the individual.
2. They do not want to warranty the batteries for 10 years.
3. They are not convinced they will not burn your house down while they are charging in the garage.
For me, I will not live to be old enough to feel comfortable with any Lithium Ion hybrid in my garage.
Neither Toyota nor GM nor Mitsu not Honda nor any other car maker is going to sell a lithium battery system which will catch fire in your garage.
They just won't. It will be safety tested a thousand different directions before it's on the road.
And the fact that 'Yota says "fleet customers FIRST" only means they are going to a little additional "real world testing" before launching it to the masses.
You think for one second the driving public is going to tolerate seeing a 100 miles per gallon Prius driving down the road and not clamor to have one themselves? It would be a MARKETING DISASTER/NIGHTMARE for 'Yota to make those available and then not sell to the public.
'Yota ain't that stupid mi amigo.
Did you read point number two? If the cost of the battery has not diminished considerably, you may want a plug-in Prius, but cannot justify $50k that it costs. Just like GM is talking about LEASING the battery in the Volt. Toyota probably will have the same cost issues to deal with.
It will be interesting and I am sure Toyota announcing the PHEV is to try and sway the buyers away from the Volt in favor of their own vehicle. It is just marketing vapor ware until you see the car on the dealers lot.
Finding a battery company that will warranty a Li-Ion for 10 years will be a challenge also. The technology does not have a good longevity record. Another reason for leasing the batteries.
And the battery is not going to cost $50K Gary my gosh !! The company that does plug-in Prius conversions charges $10K for their smallest one, and you know they have a good solid profit margin in there. And that's batteries which they buy AT MOST in quantities probably of 10 at a time.
Didn't you see all the recent news about 'Yota's new hybrid battery factories? They are going to use economy of scale to reduce those prices to reasonable amounts. They are going to build a huge number of batteries every year.
Don't be such a cynic mi amigo - life is too short..........
I thought the EV-1 used lead acid batteries?
You need to do some more research on Lithium Ion batteries. Longevity is their Achilles heel. Not to mention catching on fire. I have not had a Li-Ion battery in a laptop last more than a 1.5 years. The same exact AA cells that are in the Tesla. They expect 6000 plus AA cells to keep on ticking for How long? Supposedly GM has a supplier that has overcome some of the runaway heat problems. Have not heard on longevity or shelf life. I would assume Toyota and Panasonic are addressing those issues.
Cheapest actual conversion I find for the individual is $21,600. That will give you a low speed range of 15 miles battery only. You will get 100 MPG up to 30 miles on a full overnight charge. After 30 miles it drops back to normal Prius mileage. No one I can find will convert a Prius to Li-Ion PHEV for $10,000. They claim the batteries are that much or more. All the conversions I could find are limited to ONE YEAR warranty. Lots a money for so LITTLE gain.
http://www.hybrids-plus.com/ht/products.html
I am a cynic. I have seen too many WA claims with no results. You have talked about a 100 MPG Prius for 3 years. I have yet to see one being sold anywhere. That is a Prius with an EPA rating of 100 MPG combined. I'm waiting patiently. Just as I was waiting for a small diesel PU. They are both NA to the US market.
That problem will be SOLVED in the PHEVs and EVs which use the technology !! GM and 'Yota will not put out a product that is likely to self-combust and KILL people or burn houses down !!!
And you are still talking about prices. Did you not read my last post? 'Yota is going to have a battery FACTORY making ALL of them they need - the price will be driven WAY WAY down from the onesey-twosey prices that converters charge now !!!
I personally have not talked about a 100 MPG Prius for three years. I know the existing Prius can do that. - not EPA, but on the road it has been shown multiple times to do that.
What are those same techniques going to get on a PHEV Prius with an EPA rating of 70+ MPG? Probably over 200 MPG.
That brings up a thought - is the EPA going to have to modify their test AGAIN to account for the extra mileage a PHEV will get like the Volt?
I mean, they can't just run a "city" test on a short run, because the car will stay in electric mode the whole time. What will that show on the test? A Million Miles Per Gallon? Something creative will have to be done to that part of the test to account for the all-electric portion, right?
One has to wonder if this news is too little too late already but, Ford, General Motors and General Electric will split $30 million to develop and demonstrate Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles research projects over the next three years.
The Department of Energy said today the projects will hasten the development of vehicles capable of traveling up to 40 miles without recharging, which includes most daily roundtrip commutes and satisfies 70% of the average daily travel in the US. The projects will also address critical barriers to achieving DOE’s goal of making such cars cost-competitive by 2014 and ready for commercialization by 2016. Of course by then gas could cost so much people will be happy to push their cars.
The DOE did say this week that the average price for regular gasoline in the United States should peak at $4.15 per gallon in August and to average $3.78 per gallon for the year. Diesel fuel prices are projected to remain near the June 2 price of $4.71 per gallon over the next few months, with an average price of $4.32 per gallon for the year.
The DOE says PHEVs are hybrid vehicles that can be driven in electric-only or hybrid modes and recharged from a standard electric outlet. They offer increased energy efficiency and decreased petroleum consumption by using electricity as the primary fuel for urban driving. This is the first round of selections under DOE’s PHEV Technology Acceleration and Deployment Activity plan. A second round of applications is due July 18, 2008.
Ford continues testing and development of its Escape plug-in hybrids -- this month the automaker will let more of its 20 PHEV fleet loose on the grounds of Southern California Edison. The first Ford Escape PHEV was delivered to SCE last December.
The Escape PHEVs, which use lithium-ion batteries from Johnson Controls-Saft, will be tested first at Southern California Edison and eventually be transferred to other utilities in the New York/New Jersey area to determine the regional differences in vehicle performance, efficiency, and usage. Specifically, the 20 Escapes will be analyzed on four levels: battery technology, vehicle systems, customer usage, and grid infrastructure.
Before similar Ford PHEVs make their way to the market, Ford, along with Johnson Controls, SCE, and Electric Power Research Institute, is researching other possible uses for advanced batteries. This 20-vehicle fleet represents another baby step toward the development of a PHEV that's sellable to consumers and profitable for Ford.
My point was and is that destroying the cars and taking them off the road was a huge blunder, and nothing will ever make me change my mind about that.
Have we reached a tipping point with gas at $1.35 a litre, and rising? Are consumers so fed up that they're finally adjusting their behaviour?
In the past, we complained but did nothing, preferring instead to condemn those evil oil companies and demand that the government keep gas prices artificially low.
This time it's different. The long-term trend toward high prices is clear. And the planned closure of a General Motors truck and SUV plant in Oshawa is a strong sign that the days of gas guzzlers are numbered.
Last week, I had the opportunity of test driving a vehicle that, in a variety of driving scenarios, uses considerably less gasoline than conventional cars. When booting around the city, it almost uses no gas at all. Instead, it relies mostly on electricity from the grid. Just plug into a wall socket overnight and you're ready to go in the morning.
Interested? You should be – it could be the kind of car sitting in your driveway 10 years, even five years, from now.
It's called a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, or PHEV. The one I drove for six days was a 2004 Toyota Prius that had been retrofitted with a lithium-ion battery pack and a charging outlet on the back bumper.
Unlike a regular Prius, which has a smaller nickel-metal hydride battery that's recharged by the engine and by capturing braking energy, this Prius uses electricity from the grid to displace gasoline use.
Concord-based Hymotion did the retrofit, using batteries from Boston-area company A123 Systems, which is now Hymotion's parent company. It's the same battery technology being considered by General Motors for its Volt electric car, which is scheduled for commercial release in 2010, and a plug-in hybrid version of its Saturn Vue SUV.
For drives within the city, each trip ranging from 10 to 20 kilometres, I generally got fuel economy better than two litres per 100 kilometres. Sometimes it went much higher, and only once – during a long highway trip – was mileage more typical of a standard Prius.
Over the six days, I used 22.5 kilowatt-hours of electricity to keep the battery charged. Using Bullfrog Power, it cost me $3.83 for the power – with electricity, delivery, special charges and taxes all combined. With Bullfrog, when the car was in electric mode, it was truly emission-free.
Sorry, but the fact is that GM lost $1 billion dollars on the EV1 program.
I was sad they crushed the EV-1s myself. I do understand GM not wanting to be responsible after they were shot down by CARB on the ZEV mandate.
You may see Tesla go by the wayside also after the CA lawmakers pulled most of the incentives to keep going with their EVs.
'Yota Corporate is not happy about it, however !!!
Get your conversion at a 'Yota dealership !!!
Four dealerships in the United States are converting the Toyota Prius into a plug-in hybrid using lithium-ion batteries.
Toyota dealerships in four U.S. metropolitan areas are offering to convert customers' Priuses into plug-in hybrids, using technology from the battery maker A123 Systems.
The arrangement provides the strongest indication yet that lithium-ion battery technology is ready for mainstream automotive use.
A123, of suburban Boston, is among the four battery companies General Motors is considering to supply the Chevrolet Volt. GM wants the plug-in hybrid car on the market in 2010.
Lithium-ion batteries are seen as key to electrification of the automobile. The industry is debating whether the batteries can withstand mass production and daily use by motorists.
The Tesla Roadster, an all-electric $100,000 car that uses lithium-ion batteries, is on sale. But it is widely viewed as an expensive exotic vehicle for a few enthusiasts.
About 600,000 Priuses are on U.S. highways. The hybrid car's base sticker price is $22,160, including shipping.
How many Prius owners will spend $10,000 to convert the cars to plug-in power is unknown. A123 wants Congress to provide a tax credit of $2,500 to $3,000 to Prius owners who make the conversion.
Leslie Goldman, an attorney who represents A123 in Washington, said more than 1,000 Prius owners are on a waiting list for the conversion.
The technology "is ready for prime time," said Goldman, who has been driving a converted Prius prototype for about 18 months.
Felix Kramer, an expert on plug-in hybrids, said he believes the A123 conversion will perform satisfactorily. It uses lithium-phosphate, which does not have the same risk of overheating and exploding as some other lithium chemistries, Kramer said.
A123 does not want to jeopardize its future business supplying batteries to automakers for new vehicles, added Kramer, founder of the California Cars Initiative.
Toyota is unhappy about the conversions but said its dealerships are independent businesses that can do what they want.
Yet you are comfortable with a Li-ion laptop in your house. If your concerned about a fire I'm sure the battery pack in a laptop is big enough to get the job done.
probably raise the value of your used car by $5k at least, maybe more...(another guess).
a new replacement prius would cost you well over twice the 10k.
pretty close to making sense even on a pure economic basis.
No wonder Toyota doesn't like it one bit.
Can you supply a URL? I know that for laptop batteries, they are only good for about 500 cycles, and they work best when they are almost, but not completely, discharged before recharging. At least that is my experience with Li-Ion batteries.
I'll track down a reference. I know that the A123 Systems batteries being considered by GM have been tested through thousands of charge/discharge cycles.
This 500 cycle limit might be true for laptop batteries. What people need to realize is that the chemistries being used in Li-ion battery packs designed for vehicle applications is fundamentally different from what's now being used in laptop batteries. Even though I suspect today's laptop batteries last longer than they did a couple years ago.
Battery not at fault
Even though neither of these fires apparently were caused by lithium-ion batteries, the news is likely to raise some concern about plug-in hybrids from consumers and automakers, said Mike Omotoso, senior manager of global powertrain research at JD Power and Associates.
“This shows [companies] need more time for testing the viability of these vehicles before they can be commercialized,” he said. “This is a good example of why some manufacturers, like Honda, have been holding off on making plug-in hybrids. It’s clear it’s not just as simple as connecting a cable to your battery and plugging it into your wall. If that were the case, it would have been done by the major manufacturers already.”
He emphasized that these fires don’t necessarily mean that plug-in hybrids are unsafe, but said they could raise the perception of a safety issue, which could impact their commercialization.
“There’s a difference between someone doing an after-market conversion in a garage, versus a manufacturer making a plug-in hybrid from the get-go,” he said. “If there are more of these examples, even if it’s just some guy in a garage, people will think, ‘Maybe plug-in hybrids aren’t the way to go because they are too unsafe.’ ”
In a newsletter released Wednesday night, CalCars.org indicated similar concerns.
“For several years, some opinion leaders from automakers, utilities and national labs have expressed their fears that ‘one bad accident’ could set back the progress of [plug-in hybrids],” CalCars.org founder Felix Kramer wrote. “We have agreed that safety must be top priority. We hope that this and other incidents will lead to far greater emphasis on safety as well as full and rapid disclosure of incidents.”
He added that the nonprofit is aware that conversions by small companies and individuals never could be as well-designed as those by large carmakers, which is why it has encouraged automakers to bring plug-in hybrids to the market more quickly.
“The fact that carmakers can build better and safer PHEVs is self-evident, but the demand is so great that individuals and companies continue to bang down the doors of the suppliers of conversions,” he said. “We’re all impatient for the great transition to electrification of transportation to begin. The longer we have to wait, the larger will be the trend toward third-party conversions, for better or for worse.”
Still, he argued, it’s important to keep the danger in perspective. After all, the cars we already drive every day use a highly explosive fuel that could be set off by a stray spark or catch fire in accidents, he wrote.
Just what is the problem? I did not see any explanation only spin about gas being dangerous. Well I agree and would prefer diesel as it is MUCH safer than gas or hybrids.
Boulder, Colo.-based Hybrids Plus has advised all of its conversion owners to stop driving the vehicles until further information is available. According to the press release, forensic examinations have not been able to conclusively identify the cause of the fire, but established that the battery cells – which, according to plug-in advocacy group CalCars.org came from A123Systems – were not the reason.
The company said it has begun inspecting and upgrading all of its systems to eliminate potential concerns, and would upgrade all its customers’ systems for free.
It isn’t the first instance of fires in conversions.
CalCars last month reported a failure that resulted in a meltdown of the original nickel-metal-hydride battery in the world’s first Prius plug-in hybrid conversion.
Ok, let me get this straight. I take my $30k Prius and have it modified to a PHEV for an additional $25k plus and it is not to be driven. My advice don't park it or any other hybrid in your garage unless you are trying to get out of your mortgage. From the article a quite a few of these experiments have gone sour.
If they are upgrading free of charge would that not indicate they know what the problem is?
Note: I need to eat some of my words about the added-battery conversion system (that piggybacks the original battery with a new pack) being safer than systems like Hybrids Plus' that replace both the OEM battery and BMS. The particular failure mode I experienced is unique to two-battery systems, though a BMS failure could possibly produce similar results, depending on the PHEV battery's failure characteristics.
The best advice with PHEV is have an automatic fire suppression system installed in you garage. If you can afford to waste $60 on a PHEV another $10k to protect your home is just good insurance. I would give the same advice to someone with a CNG car being filled over night by PHILL.
I would speculate that they know it's a good business practice to provide any recall as a free service. I'm pretty sure they also know that the problem did not originate in the battery.
If Chevy uses the same brand of battery used in this fire for their new Volt it will be interesting to see how they plan to prevent fires caused by overcharging.
Two points:
1. The charger needs to have a sensor that stops charging when the batteries are full. Note this is much easier to implement than a heat sensing system. The $6 aftermarket charger for my cell phone (li-ion) senses the full charge, so it is hard for me to believe that a custom charger for a plug-in car would not also account for a full charge and stop supplying power. To me this means that the batteries overheated while being charged (NOT after being charged), leading to the second point.
2. Customers are going to complain if their batteries are not fully charged when they ran their charger all night, but it cut off due to heat in the batteries.
The issue remains the same - do the Li-Ion batteries heat up more than NiMH batteries as they charge, and if so can the problem be fixed?