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Classic? Collectible? Special Interest? Just Old?

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, the commies weren't bad at everything. They made a helluva light assault rifle that shocked American troops in Vietnam for a while. You could pour dirt in that thing and then fire it. Amazing weapon. (AK-47).

    I think some commie cars did make it over here but not officially. Whatever German or Czech companies fell behind the "Iron Curtain" after WW II continued to make the same kind of German car under Soviet rule.
    Skoda, for instance, or EMW. I"m not sure where the Wartburg and Gogomobile came from, but I think West Germany....not sure?.Fellow commie car experts?
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    I think I read some time in the past Lada exported cars to Canada, maybe small 4 wheel drives? I also recall Czechslovakia exported motorcycles to the U.S.

    I believe the Trabant had a two stroke motor. I think one of the car mags did a test of one right after the wall fell.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Remember that great shot of a Trabant in a dumpster? it was in all the papers.

    Yes, Lada did go to Canada and I guess their 4X4s have won some respect up there.

    Also, Ural still sends motorcycles over here. I've inspected them and driven them and they may look like BMWs from 25 feet away, but believe me, it stops there.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    was (I can't believe I'm saying this)a really attractive wagon-in a mini Studebaker Lark sort of way. They attempted US sales,but this East German car was a little more successful in England(that probably means they sold 300 there,as opposed to 50 here).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I guess weirdo cars like this are "collectible" in the sense that something needs to go on the "curiosity shelf" of any department store.
  • jaserbjaserb Member Posts: 820
    I personally have no problem with the old guy down the street calling his cherished old Chevy a classic. This, however, is going too far:

    http://www.parade.com/special/car_winners/car_winners.lasso


    In case the link dies, it's an essay contest from Parade magazine asking people to describe their favorite car. The second essay states: "They now call the Pacer a classic. I knew that 20 years ago." What I want to know is WHO is calling the Pacer a classic, what are they smoking, and where can I get some?


    -Jason

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A classic failure.

    However, they are dorky enough to be amusing and I think some people will preserve them--that is, preserve the survivors, not restore them. You'd be out of your mind to restore a Pacer.

    The kind term for cars like this is "special interest", which of course means nothing.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    who'll step up and save even the dorkiest car.
    It doesn't matter if it's an Austin Marina, a Nash
    Ambassador, a Trabant or a VW Squareback someone will save it and generally that's a good thing.

    I draw the line at Yugos and Subaru 360s (thanks for nothing Mal Bricklin).

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    who's always been a carnut, and owned many different interesting old cars since I've known him [since 1975]. Well, in 1975, he bought a new Pacer-white, red interior, big six and automatic. Kind of a "novelty" thing, I guess. As though it were kin to the Chrysler Airflow, or something. Anyway, at the time, some of us couldn't figure out why he'd bought one. Well, it was a fresh design, unique, and he was an Art teacher-if that had anything to do with it.
    Well, anyway, he's owned so many interesting old cars over the years, when I saw him a year or so ago, after not having talked to him for a few years, I was curious to see what he has now. Shifty, get this-he is and has been for several years now-ALL ALFA-he has 4 Alfa Romeos, of various year and model, most of them older, I believe. And nothing else. How's that for a former Pacer buyer?
    Shifty, was there ever a Pacer in your garage?
    By the way, as I remember, he sold the Pacer after only a year or so, because of the disappointing, poor gas mileage and lack of power.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    To say nothing of very unattractive. I'm surprised a lover of Art could even look at it.

    However, he obviously came around to a complete understanding of automotive styling :)

    No, I never had a Pacer. I did have a Checker once, which is just as bad, so I'm not above wallowing in my mistakes now and then.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    ...and Pacers were brand-new, we knew enough to make fun of them, and anybody who's parents drove one! I have to admit though, in a dorky sort of way they're kinda cool.

    I've never driven one, but I sat in a few. I think they're actually pretty comfortable, at least up front. The wagon model isn't bad in the back seat. One day I was at a junkyard that had just gotten one in. It must've been a nicer model, because it had thickly padded cloth seats, overly-stuffed vinyl door panels, and shag carpeting. I sat behind the wheel, just to get a feel for it.

    I think the earlier models are kinda neat looking, but they ruined it when they tried to give it more of a stand-up formal grille.

    I had a chance to get a free AMC Hornet wagon a few years ago, that some friends of mine just wanted to be rid of. I wonder what would've been worse...that thing or a Pacer? That Hornet was another car that was kinda cool in a nerdy sort of way. It was a real bright robin's egg blue, and really stood out.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Hey I owned a Hornet.

    Next you're going to tell me 1960 Corvair sedans aren't cool.
  • 20992099 Member Posts: 63
    Way back when I was in the used car business with my dad, we took in a 74 Hornet Wagon. This thing had a V-8 (305")(?) and every possible option...even some phony looking "wood" trim (like the old Ford Country Squires) on the outside. We did some repairs and sold the thing (good deal for us all the way around) to a local person who drove it for 10 years plus until it rusted apart. I remember it had a lot of pick-up and did run well, but it was ugly and that V-8 in that engine compartment was a bear to work on. Thanks for the memory jog.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    My friends' '77 Hornet had an inline-6. I think it was a 258, but I'm not sure. It was actually in pretty good shape...very little rust to speak of, but one of the rear windows would come off its track and fall down in the door.

    I would've loved to have had the thing, but I was only 23 when they were trying to get rid of it. Back then, it would've cost me another $500-600 a year to insure. I remember though that they couldn't find anybody to take it off their hands, even for free. They even called around to a few junkyards, and so did I, to help them out. Every place said they didn't have need for a car like that.

    Finally, we drove it down to a junkyard south of Culpeper, VA, about 90 miles away, and ended up getting $90.00 for it!

    If nothing else, I guess it would've been a nice little car for hauling stuff, but then again, it didn't have a full liftgate...only the rear window opened up. Kind of a hatchback wagon, I guess?
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I got a good deal on my Hornet too, but that's probably how Hornets sold--the typical off-brand discount. At the time I really wanted a Road Runner but I was still listening to my Dad in those days and Dad likes a "deal".

    Actually a good little car. I think it was a '70, had three on the tree and the 199 six, manual steering and brakes, basically an improved version of the '61 Falcon I inherited from Dad (now you know his taste in cars). Kind of fun in a penalty box kind of way. A passenger told me I drove it "like a sports car" which I think is passenger code for "too fast".

    To sell it I had it repainted medium metallic blue, hosed it out and Armor-Alled the rubber floor mats. It looked pretty sharp. Should have done that when I bought the car and not waited.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Isn't that 6 still in the new Jeeps? (Just kidding--I think).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    ...with the demise of the Cherokee, unless the Grand Cherokee is still using it. I think they went over to the 3.7 V-6 though.

    I know the 6 was a 4.0 liter, which I think comes out to a 244. I remember when it first came out, it was a big deal because it had 190 hp. Wasn't that around 1988 or so? Was the 4.0 the same basic design as those other 6es like the 199, 232, and 258?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It looks like an engine right out of 1955 except for the fuel injection (only started in 1990 or 91 I think) electronic ignition and lots of those easily breakable plastic vacuum lines and expensive little black boxes placed here and there. Otherwise, I think a mechanic from 1955 would be very comfortable working on it. Hell, a mechanic from 1915 would do okay with a little coaching.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    You're right: Chrysler is still using the 4.0 six in the Grand Cherokee, and I believe 2003 will be its final year.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    ...It just hit me that the Jeep Wrangler is still using the 4.0 inline, as well. Guess it's not over with yet! Where are they getting the little 4-cyl that goes in the base Wranglers? It that left over from the old AMC days, too? (and probably a 6 minus two cylinders, at that?)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's probably from a Skoda or a Daihatsu. You know Chrysler.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    ...I'm wondering if the four now in the Wrangler is the same one they had in 1991; my brother briefly had a '91 Wrangler which I drove around a bit one winter. It felt more powerful than you'd think; I mean, it wasn't exactly quick, but it got the thing moving just fine, and still used quite a bit of gas. I kinda miss that ride. I wouldn't be surprised if the four they're using now is the same powerplant, as Chrysler (fortunately) hasn't rushed to replace aging Jeep motors.

    Back to Pacers for a minute. A friend's mother had one when I met her (in eighth grade, 1982). It was a 'wagon' with a six and a three speed on the floor, pretty basic model. It was brown and ugly, but I do remember it being particularly roomy, mostly because it was so wide.

    An aunt had a Hornet sedan, I think a '75 or '76, baby blue with matching plaid interior, six and automatic. Not a bad car. She previously owned several Ramblers, so she was particularly loyal to the brand. Next car after that was an '82 Cavalier, two door with power windows. Not nearly as reliable as the Hornet.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    remember those? The ads went, "What's a Matador" Well, I'll tell you [at least from my point of view] if the Pacer didn't use all the ugly the stylists had, the Matador finished it off. Weird, anyway. Actually, you have to give them credit for being gutsy, coming out with designs that were so different from the norm of the time. But unfortunately, they didn't sell, and that led to the demise of AMC.
    Interesting footnote about the Pacer-it was designed to take the little V6 that AMC had bought from GM, but then sold back to GM just before the Pacer came out. Dumb move. That big inline six didn't fit as well in the Pacer. I don't think it would have made a whole lot of difference, though-V6 or not.
    History says GM was smart to buy it back though, eh? Heck, what would they be putting in all their cars now?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    ...that the Pacer was originally designed to use some type of rotary engine that GM was working on, but then got scrubbed, so they had this all-new body, but with no new engine to put in it, so they had to make do with the inline 6 and 304 V-8.

    I kinda like the Matador too, in a strange sort of way. The old hardtop that they had up through '73 (or was it '74?) was pretty sharp looking, but that weird frog-eyed thing that finished off the nameplate was something else! So hideous you just had to love it! Plus, it still had roll-down rear windows, which were really becoming scarce in 2-door cars by then.

    Those "coffin-nosed" Matador sedans looked like a big Dart up front, just with more of a "nose". One thing I'll say for 'em though, it seemed like the Matador had a nicer interior back then than competing Ford, Chevy, or Mopar cars. I remember looking in a few at an AMC show that Grbeck and I went to back in June, and it looked pretty upscale for the time.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Rotaries in Ramblers? That's priceless. Heck, hadn't they just switched to overhead valves? :-)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, I think it was the Monza that was supposed to get the rotary.

    The story I heard from an old witch in a cave was that when they were designing the Pacer that some guy knocked the real clay model off the table and before they could pick it up and straighten it out an AMC exec came into the room, pointed to the floor and said "That's It! Build It!"
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    I rember hearing that story,too. Of course,it doesn't make me like Pacers any better...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    ...but I just found this on the web:


    "Do you know WHY the Wankel and front wheel drive were dropped? They were to be purchased from GM. GM was having trouble getting their version of the Wankel to pass emission standards and asked Congress to give them a few years relief. Congress said no, so GM said it would just write the whole billion dollar (or was it two?) deal off on taxes! So they abruptly dropped the thing, leaving AMC with a new car but no new engine. What did they do? They made the 258 six fit. To do this, Dick Teague had to widen the body by six inches. This six inches is the drive shaft tunnel (vacant on front wheel drive cars, naturally). So no, the Pacer wasn't intended to be 'the first wide small car'... that came along by necessity and was capitalized on!!"


    The whole text is at this URL: http://www.amcpacer.com/about/statsfacts.html

  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    Interesting theory but I remember reading at the time that the width was because the Pacer was based on an existing platform, probably the Hornet. AMC didn't have the money to come up with a new platform or to narrow one.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    ...so they could utilize existing Nash/Hudson underpinnings!

    I wonder if the Pacer was based on an extremely shortened Matador platform? From the ones I've sat in, the Pacer feels almost midsized inside, at least up front, although the rear is extremely compromised due to the reduced length.

    I'm thinking kind of along the lines of the Gremlin, which was a shortened Hornet. As a result, the Gremlin seemed bigger up front than a Vega or Pinto, which I guess it should, considering the Hornet was a compact, but then the back seat of the Gremlin rated right up there with the worst of them!

    I do remember Pacers had H-U-G-E transmission humps, no doubt because of the shoehorning they had to do to get the engines in there.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    There was a lot of buzz generated in advance of its release. It was going to be the future... AMC was leaping past the competition and there was going to be a small car with big car space, etc, etc. Advanced technology with FWD (which was pretty much an unknown rather than a positive or a negative in those days). The future arrives!


    When the car actually hit the market it had some buzz left for about 30 minutes. The the buzz turned into a polite chorus of "Oh dear".


    My uncle bought one, and I was surprised by how small the interior space seemed compared to the outside of the car. It may have been short but it sure was wide.


    Here's a website that 'confirms' the GM wankel story and then says that AMC even licensed the wankel direct from NSU after GM fell through... but in the end as you know it was the big-6 for the Pacer, all the way until deep-6 time for AMC.


    http://www.mederle.de/amc/pacgeng.html

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It seems an unlikely story, because for one thing why would an ailing company promise to buy an engine that obviously no one had ever gotten to even run properly?

    Perhaps it was one of those golf course deals, you know "Hey, if you ever get that rotary to stop puking oil and eating gas at the rate of a Panzer tank, give us a call!"

    The only part of the story that sounds true is that of GM asking for government relief or suing somebody. At this same time, the Japanese just shut up and passed all emissions tests and made the rotary work.

    To me, that is the real story behind many of GM's debacles of the late 70s and 80s. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the Modern Car Age.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    I suppose it makes sense if you're a niche player looking for a niche, but AMC's engines were as good as most, particularly the six.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    I don't think there was much demand for the wankel by that time, and it was probably very cheap or almost free. Remember that Mazda was able to afford it and they weren't much of a company in those days.... even less cash rich than AMC I suspect. What they did have was engineers who would spend thousands and thousands of hours working on those rotor seals until they figured out how to make them work (well, more or less).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I bet Mazda was very unpleasantly surprised when they first brought that Wankel home and tested it. Probably $100 would have been too much.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    There was an article about that recently in one of the car magazines. IIRC Mazda knew pretty quickly it had been sold a bill of goods.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wonder if the RX-3 coupes will ever be worth anything? They were really fun to drive.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    There was a great image car if nothing else, at least for the enthusiasts (maybe only for the enthusiasts, given Mazda's failure to penetrate the mainstream market).

    I can't think of another interesting Japanese sedan from that period. Well, the 510. Name another.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hmmm...interesting Japanese cars from the 70s? Not much to choose from. Let's see:

    Datsun 510
    Maxda RX2/RX3
    Datsun 240Z
    Nissan Patrol 4X4
    Toyota FJ40 Land Cruiser

    Some might say the Datsun 1600 Fairlady and 2000 Roadster as well but I'm not sure either one was very interesting to drive or look at. A coin toss on those two.
  • wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    with a Mazda RX3 with a modern wankel transplant from a 2000 RX7, straight from Japan. Looked very interesting.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    How those early rotaries would backfire!

    All you had to do was let off the gas under the right circumstances.

    Sometimes they would emit a HUGE LOUD backfire after being parked for a few minutes. I remember something about raw gas slowling dripping into what looked like a small blast furnace they had.

    After a few minutes...KABOOM! This was really bad if you had come home from work, parked the car in your garage and were sipping a cold one.

    I was once in a shop when an RX3 that was up in the air having it's oil changed suddenly backfired! We ran for cover...thought a bomb had gone off!
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    My parents had one (a '71 two-door 4-speed, orange with black vinyl interior). Apparently a fun car to drive, but pretty rust-prone and not all that durable (it was dead within seven years, but then I have to remember that my parents were 22 when they bought it, drove fairly aggressively, then gave it to my sixteen year-old uncle).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Neither the RX-3 or many Datsun 510s have survived. Both are a rare sight in decent condition. I agree, the 510 was a better car, and the coupe was very popular, and IS still very popular, in SCCA racing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I know what you mean.

    Anyway, this is why I put the alternative of "Just Old" in the title of this discussion. I think some old cars are just "old cars" and we should refer to them that way rather than say "collectible" just because Ralph has 20 of them in his backyard. True, he's "collected" them, but they collect tin cans and cardboard for recycling, too. So if we call a 62 Rambler an "old car", then that allows the word "collectible" and "classic" to have meaning for more interesting cars.

    Also, that doesn't mean that restoring "an old car" is a smart thing to do either. Gee, if a person had the money and talent, I could think of better cars to apply it to myself.
  • kosarinkosarin Member Posts: 14
    got my son a '71 dart swinger last year...was running but i've already sunk over $1,000 in repairs to date and the sucker won't start again...worth fixing? selling "as is"?...donate to charity?...also, if anyone knows of a good, cheap mechanic in the d.c. area who works on these types of cars, drop me a line....thanks!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    We're already talking about this in another topic, so we'll see you in the "Dodge Dart/Plymouth Valiant" department.

    Try not to duplicate your posts next time and THANKS!

    Shifty the Host
  • reallandyachtreallandyacht Member Posts: 28
    ............ other than me?
  • jpfjpf Member Posts: 496
    I also have an 86 Lebaron convertible, 2.2 liter (non-turbo). I believe these cars are not considered collectibles at this time but there is some interest in this car. See the attached link for further info.
    http://www.ricdidonato.com/Downtime/index.html
    Good luck.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I had a friend who had not one, but TWO '86 LeBaron convertibles. He was a glutton for punishment I guess! :P Actually, they weren't THAT bad from what I recall. The first one he bought, a burgundy 2.2, had been wrecked before he bought it. He bought a creme 2.5 model, and had them both for awhile, and ultimately got rid of the 2.2. The creme one was pretty nice, and just about fully-loaded. I forget what happened to it, but I do know he took a job that required a lot of traveling. He used to be one of those "I'd rather push a domestic than drive an import" types, but ultimately he bought a new Corolla in the mid-90's. And that gave way to a Maxima. Funny how times change.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    didn't jeep still use the I-6 until recently?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
This discussion has been closed.