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Porsche 911 Lease Questions

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  • bwedotnetbwedotnet Member Posts: 48
    John:

    Given the same payment for two leases I would go with the lease that has the low residual and low MF.

    This leaves you in a better position at the end of the lease if you decide to sell the car or keep it.
  • bwedotnetbwedotnet Member Posts: 48
    Turboguy:

    Do not put down 'a decent cap reduction'. With a lease it is best to put as little money down as possible. If you put down a big cap reduction and the vehicle is totaled you do not get that money back.
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hey John. Porsche Credit's residual values for leases with 12,000 miles per year are 2% higher than its 15,000 mile per year residual values. If you were to lease a 2007 Porsche 911 C4 S Coupe with a manual transmission through Porsche Credit right now for 48 months with 12,000 miles per year, its buy rate lease money factor and residual value should be .00320 and 52%, respectively.

    I am not personally all that familiar with U.S. Bank's lease program for Porsches, but it wouldn't shock me if it was about the same as Porsche Credit's given the lack of support on Porsche leases. If U.S. Banks' money factors and residual values are lower yet its lease payments are about the same then theoretically you would be better off leasing through it than through Porsche Credit because the lower residual value would make your car's lease-end purchase price lower.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    No problem turboguy.

    Car_man
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  • vwguild1vwguild1 Member Posts: 98
    We tend to use US Bank more frequerntly because their Money Factor is always so much lower than PFS, although PFS has, as would be expected, significantly higher residuals...
  • outdrguyoutdrguy Member Posts: 8
    I would welcome thoughts on this deal:
    2007 C2 Cab manual
    $85250 purchase price/$93000 MSRP
    39mo lease
    15K miles
    52000 residual (61%)
    0.00259 MF (not thru Porsche)

    lease $1268/mo (not including tax)
    Thanks much.
  • sje3333sje3333 Member Posts: 13
    Car Man,

    Can you give me your input with regard to the following deal I worked out at a dealership in Connecticut:

    Car - 997 Carrera S (Car is in inventory)
    Invoice including destination - $89,205
    Quoted price by dealer - $83,405

    Lease term - 36 months
    Residual - 59% or $52,631
    Annual mileage - 10,000

    Upfront fees:

    Acquisition Fee - $745
    Registration - $155
    Documentation - $239
    Disposition Fee - $350

    Base payment excluding taxes - $1310.55

    He didn't give me the money factor but is quoting the rate between 6 and 7 percent.

    Are any of the upfront fees negotiable?

    Do you think I am getting a reasonable discount (6.7%)?

    What is your personal opinion if you had to decide between the Carrera S and the Targa 4?

    Thanks,

    Steve
  • caboman1caboman1 Member Posts: 1
    Car Man,

    I'd appreciate your opinion on this lease through Porsche Credit.

    Carrera S Cab MSRP $121,290

    Cap Cost $116,938 ( This includes $6000 needed to pay off my trade, so the negotiated cap cost was actually $109,938)

    Residual $49,456

    Due at signing

    Cap Cost Reduction $26,578.98 (I want to do this to reduce my payments so I can lease the car through a business, and I plan on buying the car after the lease is over)

    1st mo pmt $1216.64
    Tire fee $8.75
    Registration $781
    Sales and Use Tax 2059.87

    60 mos 12K per year

    Pmt including tax $1216.64

    Thanks,

    Caboman1
  • bwedotnetbwedotnet Member Posts: 48
    looks like a good deal to me.
  • bwedotnetbwedotnet Member Posts: 48
    Caboman:

    Don't put down a large cap cost reduction.

    Here is some feedback from Car Man regarding Cap Cost Reduction from some other lease forums on Edmunds:

    "you may want to consider not making any sort of capitalized cost reduction on your lease. You would be better off going with a zero down lease."

    "If one totals a leased vehicle in an accident, their vehicle is gone and with is goes any benefit that they were receiving from having made a cap cost reduction."

    "It's true that it is not really a good idea to make capitalized cost reductions on leases. Consumers who do risk losing them if their vehicle is totaled in an accident or stolen and never recovered."
  • bwedotnetbwedotnet Member Posts: 48
    If it is a 2007 model year your discount is good - not so good if it is a 2006 vehicle. The payment seems inline with the market.

    Carrera S vs Targa 4 - two very different vehicles and a very personal decision. Drive both back to back and pick the one you like best. My choice would be the C2S.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "Carrera S Cab MSRP $121,290"

    Are you kidding??

    My 2005 S Cab was fairly well loaded (nav full leather/power seats, bose, sport chrono, sport exhaust, etc.) and came with a MSRP of $102,880. The 2007 equivalent MSRP would have been $106k +/-. I got a $10,800 discount on mine in September 2005. Your quoted price is a $11,400 discount - which would be very good - except it sounds like the car is loaded up with (excuse my bluntness) a lot of cosmetic junk. There are a lot of C2S Cabs with MSRP's of 105k or less that are VERY well equiped.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that, if my assumption is correct, this car will take an enormous hit on depreciation due to the limited (in some cases NEGATIVE) resale value of custom colors, over the top interiors with graphite packages, etc., etc. I've seen cars sit on dealer lots for months with prices at or below a nicely equiped silver/black car that has decent options. If this overloaded 911 S Cab is just your cup of tea and you intend to keep it for 10 years, great. But in any less time than that, a 911 Turbo at $130k would be a less costly car to own, factoring in resale.
  • john_galtjohn_galt Member Posts: 3
    Anyone know what kind of discounts are reasonable on the new Targa 4S?

    I've seen $3k with no markup on financing. I aslo heard $5k, but there was a markup on the financing that I believe made the first deal far better.

    If the car is like prior versions, I expect that later in the model year, it will again turn out to be the least popular in the 911 family and far larger discounts will be had.

    Thoughts? Experience?
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Thanks for the insight, vwguild1. Given Porsche's traditional lack of lease support, I'm not surprised that an independent bank has a better lease program than Porsche Credit does.

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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi outdrguy. The selling price that you were quoted looks pretty good to me. The lease program that you mentioned looks very good as well, much better than Porsche Credit's current program for this car. If you like it, I personally don't see any reason not to pull the trigger on this deal.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi sje3333. You stated that this car's invoice is $89,205. Did you mean that is its MSRP? I suspect that is the case. If you are really getting it for $5,800 below dealer invoice, you are getting an outstanding deal. I am not intimately familiar with what the market is like for this car in your area, but this car has around a $10,000 spread between its full MSRP and its dealer invoice price. You are being quoted a discount of $5,800 from its MSRP, this isn't bad but there is still some room there. It probably wouldn't hurt to try to negotiate a little more or to shop around, but I don't know if you can do better than this.

    As far as this car's money factor goes, Porsche Credit's current buy rate lease money factor is .00310. This is equivalent to an interest rate of around 7.4%. There is a decent chance that you can do better than that by leasing through an independent bank. If one has a better program than Porsche Credit, your dealer will likely steer you in that direction.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi Caboman1. You were quoted a $11,300 discount on this car. That sounds like a pretty reasonable discount to me. Normally I advise consumers against making large down payments on leased vehicles, but if your business is paying for this lease and you don't mind risking losing this money if your car is stolen and never recovered or totaled in an accident then I guess there's nothing wrong with making one. Keep in mind though that down payments on leases do nothing to reduce vehicles' lease-end purchase prices. Your purchase option price is based upon a percentage of your car's full MSRP, regardless of how large a down payment you make.

    I also usually advise consumers against leasing for such a long time. A lot can happen over the course of a 5 year lease to make you want or need a new vehicle. Your family situation could change, your commute could change causing you to go way over your mileage allowance, your job could change causing you to want a more or a less expensive vehicle, or you could just plain get sick of your vehicle. I usually recommend that consumers lease for 39 months or less.

    If you are comfortable with entering into such a long lease and making such a large down payment, this car's price looks pretty good to me. Just make sure that the dealer that you are working with uses Porsche Credit's current buy rate lease money factor of .00310 to calculate your car's monthly payment and you're in business.

    Car_man
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  • lowbmclowbmc Member Posts: 3
    Hi, Mr. CarMan,

    I am not good at [I should say I am not smart enough] to understand how leasing is work, or how the money factory stuffs, can you simple talk about it? and also, I am looking around to get a costumer order on 911S [2007, 997],how many down payment do I really have to pay and also how many discount do I really get? If I put a $5000 down, the MSRP of the car is 97000, and I am going to lease the car for 5 years [ I am going to buy the car at the end anyway], how much will the monthly payment going to be?

    Thanks for your kind concern and your time.
    Lowbmc
  • lowbmclowbmc Member Posts: 3
    Actually the car price is 93190
  • jax1fdrjax1fdr Member Posts: 2
    These lease deals can be made a lot more complicated than they really are. In my opinion they try to confuse people with the money factors and residuals and so on and so forth. When they want to move a car they advertise a low payment but usually have some unusually high cap cost reduction (down payment). What you really want to do in my opinion when you lease is get as low a money factor as you can. Understanding that they can hide the money factor by artificially holding a high residual. Ask yourself one question, if you could buy this car at 72 months at zero interest would that be a good deal? I say yes. So what I use as a base line is to divide the price by 72 (months) and pay only the minimum up fronts (dealer fee, tax, tag, title acquisition). No cap cost reduction, no other down payment. For example for the 93,100 I would expect to pay around $1293. I don't worry about all the money factors and residuals, let them discount the car to get to your number. You'll have the peace of mind knowing that basically you're buying the car at 0% interest. At the end of the lease term, you just compare what you can buy your car for vs what the price of equivalent cars on the market are. If the market is lower, buy a different car. If you car is lower, you are in at least as good a position as you would have been if you had bought the car at 0% interest. You can always just walk away as well. It should be fair in most cases unless the cars demand is high. For low end cars I use 84 instead of 72. Keep it simple.
  • lowbmclowbmc Member Posts: 3
    very very good information! thank you=] now i have a better understanding about leasing=] thanks!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Nice theory, but I don't think it works in practice. How many 911's have you leased and what were their MSRP's and monthly lease payments?

    I would agree in a heartbeat that if I could take the cash purchase price of my car, divide it by 72 and have that be my payment for 72 months, it would be a no-brainer deal. But in your example, you aren't actually buying the car for 0% interest, you are leasing it for 36-48-60 months after which you have nothing. Using 4 years, you are paying a total of $62,000 to lease a car costing $93,100. If that total lease cost is less than what your own borrowing cost (or opportunity cost) plus expected depreciation is, then the lease deal is good. If not, it's not. That's still pretty simple to me.
  • outdrguyoutdrguy Member Posts: 8
    Thanks for the reply Car_man. I'll let you know if the good lease rate holds up through the end of the deal.
  • jax1fdrjax1fdr Member Posts: 2
    I say it is a good deal because even in the lease, you have the option to buy at the end. In my example, if you lease a car for 36 months at basically a 72 month interest free loan, you do have a good deal, because at the end you have the option of giving the car up or purchasing it. If you BUY a car for 72 months at 7% interest you will have paid more obviosly by 36 months than my lease example. Even if the residual in the lease example is high, you have the option of buying an equivalent used car if the market is weak. You can buy your car if the market is strong. You will be ahead of the game because you haven't paid any interest. I don't know how you see it, but it seems pretty good to me. Thanks for your input.
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi lowbmc. If you don't understand how leasing works, you definitely should check out the following informative articles that are available here at Edmunds.com prior to visiting any dealers: 10 Steps to Leasing a New Car and Calculate Your Own Lease Payment.

    As far as how much of a down payment you should make on your lease goes, the answer is none. I personally always advise consumers not to make large down payments on lease vehicles. Consumers who make one risk losing it if their vehicle is totaled in an accident or stolen and never recovered. All consumers who choose not to make any down payment have to pay at lease signing are their vehicle's monthly payment, a security deposit equivalent to that payment rounded up to the nearest $50 increment, their acquisition fee that is charged by the bank they are leasing through... Porsche credit charges $745, and any required state taxes or fees.

    The lease payment of the car that you are interested in will depend upon what sort of selling price you are able to negotiate on it. If you provide me with this car's approximate selling price I will gladly use Porsche Credit's current lease program to estimate what your monthly payment should be.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hey lowbmc. I see that you provided this car's selling price in your next post. Let's crunch some numbers and see what sort of lease payment we come up with. According to my calculations, if you were to lease a 2007 Porsche 911 C2 Coupe S that has an MSRP of $97,000 and a selling price of $93,190 through Porsche Credit right now for 60 months with 12,000 miles per year, your zero down, pre-tax monthly payment should be around $1,277.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    No problem outdrguy.

    Car_man
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  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Car_man:

    I'm curious as to your thoughts on how I would evaluate the purchase vs. lease, using the figures for lowbmc's car.:

    Lease: $1,277 x 60 months = $76,620 total payments over 5 years.

    Purchase: $93,190 (I'm using this figure, although it sounds very high for a loaded 911S Coupe - I would shoot for a 10% MSRP discount to $87,300).

    Financing/opportunity cost over 5 years at 5% after tax borrowing rate = $23,300.

    Total cost of purchase = financing + depreciation. For lease to be a better deal than purchase, $76,620 needs to be less than $23,300 + depreciation; i.e. depreciation needs to be more than $53,320. In this case, if the car is worth more than $39,870 in 5 years / 60k miles, you would have been better off buying.

    Lots of assumptions there - but in my case, where the underlying cost of borrowing is less than 5% after tax, I would have a tough time leasing. Not to mention that I would hate monthly payments of nearly $1,300 in the few months that we had crappy winter weather. I bit my big bullet once, but prefer that to 60 deep pin pricks.

    What say you?
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi habitat1. 60 months is an awfully long time to lease a vehicle for. One problem with this long a lease is that Porsches only come with 4 year / 50,000 mile warranties. This means that you will have to pay out of your own pocket to fix anything that goes wrong with your car during the last year of your lease or have to pay an excess wear ad tear penalty when you return your car. Furthermore, a lot can change over the course of five years. Your life could change causing you to need a larger or a smaller vehicle. Or you could just plain get sick of your car and want something new. Or your commute might change causing you to go way over your car's mileage allowance. I usually advise consumers to lease for 36 months or so, 48 tops.

    Also, Porsche never provides any lease support on the 911. This means that if you want to lease one through Porsche Credit you will have to use its standard lease money factor of .00310. This is equivalent to an interest rate of over 7.4%. You may not even be able to find a dealer that is willing to lease you this car without marking your money factor up. If this happens your interest rate will be even higher than this. It looks to me as though you would probably be better off financing your new 911 rather than leasing it.

    Car_man
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  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Thanks for the response and you basically hit upon several reasons why I paid cash for my 2005 911S Cab 19 months ago. Bit that big bullet once, but no regrets or monthly reminders since.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    Greetings.. TO ALL:

    With all due respect... if there was a " magic " formula that would provide anyone with a " good " deal leasing a $100k vehicle, there would not be a single leasing company in business. IMO from personal experience leasing cars.. unless there is a good business reason that allows you depreciation or a deduction, the leasing companies have you by the short hairs..good luck.

    Chromedome
  • rr4mywiferr4mywife Member Posts: 60
    I have a '06 Carrera lease with 15 months remaining. With great sadness (borderline depression), I have to transfer the lease. However, Porsche Financial Services will keep me on the "hook" as the second lease holder. In the event that the primary lease holder misses payment or does not pay for extra miles or excess wear-n-tear at lease end, they come after me.

    To protect myself, I have asked the new leaser to deposit 2 payments in escrow with an attorney (signed legal contract as well).

    Is this a good idea? Any other ideas? Thx
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 234,725
    Have you looked into selling the car? Check your payoff on the lease and see how far upside down you are.

    There is no way that I would transfer a lease, and still be on the hook for it.. even if I knew the person. Your possible liabilities greatly exceed a couple of payments..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    Please see my last post in regards to " short hairs ". Just another example of the lows of leasing. I'm sorry for the guy not being able to keep the Porsche, BUMMER! Trusting someone who uses your leased car with the liabilty being yours totally is fool-hardy at best, financial damaging in reality. Sell the car and take the financial knock. Good luck!

    Chromedome
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    You're very welcome, habitat1. Given Porsche's lack of lease support paying cash for a 911 is not a bad idea.

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  • rr4mywiferr4mywife Member Posts: 60
    Thank you all for the responses.

    Just to update you, I've decided to keep the car. Both the financial implications and the fact that Porsche rejected 3 candidates has made me think twice about parting with the car.

    I even put 4 brand new Michelin's on yesterday.

    Thanks
  • psmdpsmd Member Posts: 20
    I think this is a dumb question but is there a 2007 turbo cabriolet?
    If so what are the money factors and residuals at 15K and 20K miles? for 36m and 48month leases? (for both the turbo and a C4S Cab)
    Thanks in advance.
    Paul
  • vwguild1vwguild1 Member Posts: 98
    Paul, there is no 2007 911 Turbo Cab, but there will be a 2008...Launch will be in September, but orders are being taken now...
  • egold1egold1 Member Posts: 9
    carman,
    Can you tell me what the current money factor is for 36mos/12k mile lease. Also for purchase with top tier credit what interest rates are for 60mos loan?

    Is there any benefit to waiting till 08 model comes out to get discount on leftover 07 turbo?

    Thanks
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    You're very welcome, rr4mywife. At least you're keeping a great car. I'm always amazed by how much of a difference new tires make. Enjoy :) .

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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Member Posts: 38,514
    Hi egold1. Porsche Credit's current buy rate lease money factor and residual value for a 36 month lease of a 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo Coupe with 12,000 miles per year are .00310 and 58%, respectively. The longer you wait, I suspect the more willing dealers will be to discount 2007 models, assuming that there are still any around when you decide to buy.

    Car_man
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  • vwguild1vwguild1 Member Posts: 98
    Give some careful thought to dropping $130,000.00 + for a car that is leftover in someone's inventory...The above representing an $8,000.00 discount. For that kind of money build the perfect car for you...not what someone else didn't want...
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Not to play devil's advocate, but there aren't a lot of necessary options on the Turbo, since it already comes with full leather, nav, Bose, power seats, etc.

    Was at my dealer today and saw a Meteor Grey with sportchrono and a couple of other options for around $128,000. There will likely be no discount on a 2008 ordered, so if that or a similar car could be purchased for a $10k discount, that's a lot of nice dinners. I got a $10k discount on my 2005 C2S Cab and the only significant option it came with that I wouldn't have ordered was the sport exhaust. And, as fate would have it, that's now one of my favorite options.

    Everybody's math is different, but there do seem to be a few leftover Turbo's hanging around to potentially negotiate on.
  • vwguild1vwguild1 Member Posts: 98
    All that I am saying is that to spend over $130,000.00 in purely disposable income; I would be hard pressed to take
    ownership of a car that wasn't EXACTLY perfect for me...additionally at that pricepoint the $10K is not really even relevant...We had two Turbo Coupes in stock last quarter because both clients had either changed their minds or experienced some reversal of fortune...We sold the first one to a guy that had just inherited a bundle, and the second to a gentleman that had previously had 4 Porsches and bought a Corvette...this was in May...712 miles later he bought the Turbo on July 22nd, and we now have the Vette. Both Turbos nicely, but not lavishly equipped, as you indicated you had seen.

    But, you are certainly correct..."everybody's math is different"...
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I would be hard pressed to take ownership of a car that wasn't EXACTLY perfect for me

    I agree, but perhaps we have different definitions of "exactly".

    For me, in the case of the Turbo, it would have to be a 6-speed manual, in one of 2-3 colors / interiors, come with the sport chrono option and not be loaded up with the cosmetic stuff. At that point, a $10k discount would be just about perfect.

    I do agree with your point in another way, however. My wife and I looked at 100+ new homes over the course of the last 18+ months. Nothing was "exactly" what we wanted, typically with the builder offering more quanity of square feet than we need and way less construction and finish quality than we want. But most importantly, no real architectural inspiration, except in a couple of cases, that were in the wrong location. So we bought a tear down house, hired an architect and will be spending 16 months designing and building a Frank Lloyd Wright Prairie style house.

    I have that kind of patience and passion for a house. But Porshce did well enough with the 911 that getting close to my preferred configuration and driving away with the car at a significant discount was my choice rather than waiting 4+ months and getting the EXACT configuration at full price.
  • drjmakdrjmak Member Posts: 19
    has anybody here tried driving a c4s in the winter and if so what tires did u use?
  • womblewomble Member Posts: 28
    Hi Car Man, I want to lease a basic 911 coupe, tiptronic, power seats, bose, floor mats, heated seats, and right now I can't get any dealer to drop below MSRP on the car. The best quote I have for 36 months is $5,000 down, $1282 plus tax ($1388) for 10,000 miles a year. I am finding it hard to shop the deal as porsche dealers seem reluctant to give numbers over the phone, andI know I will get an initially high quote if I go in to each dealership. Trying to save time AND money here. How can I get leverage here to negotiate down? Given the money factor for lease is this a good deal I am being offered or not? Any help greatly appreciated! OH and I am in SoCal. Thanks
  • vwguild1vwguild1 Member Posts: 98
    Allocations for C2 Coupes are very much reduced for 2008...The Tip makes it even tougher...particularly in LA/SD.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    Yes, I talked to the salesperson who sold me my 2006 C2S, recently , and he related that the number of cars being shipped and available build slots for the " S" have been greatly decreased by Porsche ( 997 )... ( I live in North County San Diego, CA ). With the flush pockets that Porsche now has and the complaints about the excess production ( thereby increased depreciation ) in previous years ( 996 ), maybe Porsche is protecting my investment.. I hope so.

    Chromedome
  • ringleader6ringleader6 Member Posts: 43
    But that theory does not check out in the world Porsche sales and production figures, which are at record highs. The Cayman was a profit makerits first year at 18,000 units and they made 28,000. That is why there is a heavy inventory of Caymans. The huge increase of production and shipment to the USA while 911's are elsewhere. The current shortage at the US dealer lots I am told is for diversion of shipments to markets Porsche previously ignored, such as China. That holds the discount on the 911 to 6-7% It also props up the immediate past model year resale to more than dealer cost.
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