2007 3-Series

div2 · December 2006

If you do make your way out here, give me a heads up.

Will do!

div2 · December 2006

Yet all this talk about "whatever" on the race track is lost on me. I am not going to take my M3 or 335i (I don't have either one, that is a liberty I am taking for purposes of this post) out on the race track to attempt to prove which engine is more potent or which drive configuration is superior.

I take my car to the track to hone my driving skills as well as to explore my car's limits in a safe, controlled enviroment. The vast majority of BMW owners lack the ability to exploit 50% of their car's potential. Such as those hapless souls who "need" an AWD car because they do a lot of driving in the rain... As I've said before, BMW's AWD vehicles are especially ideal for those drivers who lack or-do not wish to develop-proficient driving skills.
Sadly, BMW seems intent on building larger and heavier cars(an E90 weighs almost as much as an E32!). Couple that with the fact that most new BMW owners wish to wear their car rather than drive it, and it's no big surprise that new BMWs are crammed full of Bavarian electro-nannies dsigned to protect those inept individuals from the consequences of their horrendous driving skills.

fedlawman · December 2006

"all this talk about "whatever" on the race track is lost on me."

Technology from racing is what makes our street cars perform so well. Honda and BMW are leaders in trickling down this technology, but all manufacturers and vehicles ultimately benefit. Tires, safety equipment, HP, fuel economy, suspension design - you name it, it comes from racing. Talking about how a car performs on the track may be lost on you (and most people), but for many of us, it's THE reason for choosing a car - whether we actually drive on the track, the "tail-of-the-dragon," or that decreasing radius sweeper at exit 14.

"If AWD were without merit (or merits, plural) it probably would NOT be offered and plans to expand its adoption no longer a secret."

Nobody is saying that AWD has no merits - personally, I think it's great technology. I've owned 2 AWD vehicles in the past, and I was satisfied with both of them. They were like mountain goats when heading up to Snoqualmie in the winter, and AWD really helped with getting up the Smith Street hill after a snowfall.

Customers living in the snowbelt are well advised to drive an AWD vehicle with snow tires - it's simply the best traction available. But, don't try to tell these people that their cars are just as good (or even better) performers when the roads aren't slippery. It's just not true. Of course, even on dry pavement, the average driver may well find the added traction of AWD to be reassuring and easier to handle than a comparable RWD car, but "easier to handle" and "more reassuring" don't necessarily equate to superior performance.

Selling an AWD 335xi to a customer in Arizona is borderline fraud, in my opinion. It's heavier, more expensive, and costlier to operate and maintain. It's softer suspension and higher ground clearance result in more body roll and pronounced weight transfer. Unless they intend to drive it to Denver every winter for snow season, the AWD 335 has absolutely no advantage (and many disadvantages) over the RWD version.

Here's an analogy I thought of this morning. Consider the automatic transmission. BMW offers them on all models. They make driving easier and more convenient. They perform as well as (and sometimes better than) a manual transmission. Probably 75% of the cars on lot at "the 10th largest BMW dealer" have slush boxes. Remember what happened when BMW announced that the E60 M5 would not be sold with a manual tranny in the US? Answer: they reversed their decision at the last minute and put a 6-speed in it.

Here's another. Consider Electronic Stability Control. It makes driving safer under all road conditions right? It's the greatest safety invention since the seatbelt - all cars should have it. How come BMW puts an "OFF" button on the dash?

AWD, automatic transmissions, and stability control. All technological milestones that have made modern cars superior to the cars of just a few years ago. All three will no doubt continue to gain in popularity with the motoring public, and all three will continue to be avoided by enthusiasts.

So, why does a person own a BMW or a Porsche? Performance? Prestige? Styling? Peer Pressure? Image? All of the above? That's why Porsche and BMW sell cars with AWD, stability control, auto trannies, padded leather consoles, Harmon Kardon stereos, etc. They want to sell as many cars as possible, to as wide a customer base as possible. But for BMW and Porsche, hopefully the day will never come that they completely alienate the enthusiast customer base that helped make their cars a success in the first place.

circlew · December 2006

"Consider Electronic Stability Control. It makes driving safer under all road conditions right? It's the greatest safety invention since the seatbelt - all cars should have it. How come BMW puts an "OFF" button on the dash?"

There is a button so when you go to the track, you turn it off not to interfere past the limits you want to go.

I agree with all of your points. I also hope that all of the premium autos are always available for all drivers, especially the ones that dare to test the limits and have fun doing just that.

I just think the technology is great to allow mere mortals to have fun safely. As you and div2 know, it tales a heck of a lot of practice and track time to hone driving skills and share the feedback for improvements in engineering and technique and the public roads are not the place to do it.

Hats off to you guys! Also, I highly value your views and insights. This is great stuff!

You really should try the E92xi when it comes out so we can at least get your valuable view.

Regards,
OW

div2 · December 2006

Very well said!

div2 · December 2006

I just think the technology is great to allow mere mortals to have fun safely.

I agree, but I think the technology convinces some drivers that they are better than they actually are.

You really should try the E92xi when it comes out so we can at least get your valuable view.

I'm not sure just how valuable my views are, but I will be able to report on the new 3er convertible in late January. I'm hoping to be able to check out a couple of the oil burning versions.

Now, make a New Year's Resolution that you will attend a few BMW CCA driving events.

circlew · December 2006

Div,

Your views are also very valuable since you have tons of experience with various configurations. Please do let us know what you think and thanks for all of your feedback.

OK, I'll make a point of attending some driving events and promise to keep the nanny's ON until I get some track time under my belt.

Regards,
OW

cdnpinhead · December 2006

Nicely put.

My present vehicle is one that was put forward (in 1999) as a legitimate competitor to the BMW. The vehicle was, but the company wasn't. It's no longer produced (Lincoln LS), & Lincoln is searching . . . for something, anything.

Next time I'm going for the real thing. Your post described part of why.

Well done.

fedlawman · December 2006

"I will be able to report on the new 3er convertible in late January. I'm hoping to be able to check out a couple of the oil burning versions."

OK, I've got to know. Is Satch sending you on a mission in January? Is BMW providing a diesel press vehicle state-side? Tell.

circlew · December 2006

I had the 2003 LS. Great car but the resale annihilated me last December when I went into the 3'er awd. I vowed to myself never to go U.S. again because of what you mentioned. The big three remind me of the Titanic...couldn't or refused to see it coming.

It is a shame but soon they will need to merge with the competition or completely reinvent themselves under an entirely new entity.

I almost went for the real thing but I opted for slush and "mini-van weight awd" garb for weather reasons. I am not as qualified as others on this board so the extra tech helps me (I'm not a legend in my own mind on the road). I am learning my limits but the car is the best (and by far most fun) performer I've driven so far despite the tech baggage. It makes the LS feel like a boat when you ask the suspension to work hard.

I assume your looking at the 335i SP, are you not?

Regards,
OW

fedlawman · December 2006

I had a coworker who drove an LS V8 for a while. It was a nice car. IIRC, it was the basis for the Thunderbird and Jaguar Type S, wasn't it?

Too bad Lincoln, like Lexus, refused to sell a 3-pedal V8. What a cool sleeper car that would have been.

div2 · December 2006

Is Satch sending you on a mission in January?

Yep, he's decided to risk sending me to another press intro.

Is BMW providing a diesel press vehicle state-side?

I hope so; I won't know for sure until I get to the intro.

fedlawman · December 2006

It warms my heart to know that there are selfless enthusiasts like yourself willing to sacrifice personal time and travel the ends of the earth to ensure that the new BMW's fully live up to our expectations.

Thanks!

cdnpinhead · December 2006

I've worn out a number of people on Edmunds & other boards with the long version, but Readers' Digest style, I bought into the LS concept (big-time) when it came out. I bought a manual, so couldn't get the V8; I figured a manual V8 would be available by the time I was ready to move on (that'd be approximately now). Well, they improved the car nicely in '03 with several hundred tweaks, but at the same time they dropped the manual completely -- never mind offering it on the 8 also. That was when they lost, in fact alienated, me. It was a huge leap of faith on my part in '00 to go with an another American car, after my disappointment with my '94 Eagle Vision, but I did it. Never again. The car's been great though -- turned 105K miles earlier this month.

I've driven in Europe (mostly Germany, Switzerland & England) on business a fair amount over the past six years or so and really enjoy the cars available over there. I like diesels & don't crave a lot of raw power. Fuel economy & good/excellent handling work just fine for me. So, to (finally) get to your question, I'm not looking at the 335 turbo, but rather at the 328 SP manual. I'd probably consider something with an even smaller engine, if it were offered over here. I'd order a diesel tomorrow, were one available at all, let alone with all sorts of bolt-on crap required by the CA zealots -- just bring over what's been sold over the water for the past umpteen years.

I'm not holding my breath. It'll be interesting to see what BMW does allow over here in the way of diesels. Maybe after they've had a few years to wring out any "issues" with additional scrubbers or ammonia injectors or whiz-bang filters or whatever. . .

circlew · December 2006

FL,
You are correct...Jag S and T-Bird. It could have evolved but...R.I.P.

I saw a book on 40 years of the Mustang. There are some awesome models of the venerable 'Stang that gave me goose bumps as I reminisced.

Regards,
OW

circlew · December 2006

CP,

I can relate to your feelings of alienation. I have had enough as well. The LS is a microcosm of the direction-less intent at Ford. I would have been axed many times if I made some of the decisions I see at the Big 3.

You would think the car guys in the Motor City would just look back at the '60's to around 1971 and set a strategy to keep us interested. They were on a great roll. Now they start the nostalgia. I think they were waiting for everyone to forget the Camaros, Challengers, Road Runners, GTO's, Chargers, Novas, Chevelles, 'Cudas, 'Stangs, etc., before they started to revive some of these legendary nameplates. Heck, even the Caddies smoked tracks around 150 ft, if you power braked!

Well, the 328 is a great choice and understand the package you're aiming for. I do hope the diesels are adopted. I heard good things about them. I believe the E350 Merc is available in the states now. I hope there will be brisk sales of that model. They did some great improvements to smooth out some of the roughness and improved the cold start issues.

Regards,
OW

div2 · December 2006

I figured a manual V8 would be available by the time I was ready to move on (that'd be approximately now).

Join the club; I'm currently looking for a V8 sled to use as my commuter(and also to satisfy my nostalgia for my high school street/drag racing days). I was hoping against hope that by now an SVT LS would be available(I can get Ford products on X-plan). Instead, Lincoln is only offering dull Ford sedans with an extra helping of bling. Remember how we got shouted down on the LS board when we voiced our doubts about Lincoln's level of commitment to the LS?

markcincinnati · December 2006

I agree with your point, "Technology from racing is what makes our street cars perform so well." Yet, it is unlikely that the vast majority of drivers contribute to the technology advances that make street cars perform well.

I drive over 15K miles per year. I drive in a medium sized American city. Although I have been to 7 driving schools over the past decade, I believe drivers on the highways of America are well served by the addition of technology -- including AWD -- to their cars.

For example, ABS increases control under the typical situations we drive in. AWD, likewise increases control and provides options.

Driving on a track depending on your objective -- IF you are not earning your living driving fast, faster and fastest -- is a safe endeavor. Cars only go in one direction (unless there is a spin out), there are no intersections, no pedestrians, no old clunkers, no cars with questionable engines, suspensions, brakes, etc. No traffic signals and essentially a completely controlled environment where the drivers have incredible experience and typically are backed by at least a 7 figure investment by a major sponsor.

As they say, racing cars is easy, comedy -- er, driving on the public roads -- is hard (and far more dangerous.)

Indeed, a group of twenty or so pro race drivers quite possibly know each other, have "intel" on each other and all of them have incredible support and training systems behind them. Conversely, on the roads and streets and interstates we drive, we are driving with hundreds or more likely thousands of strangers, 1 in 50 who is impaired and virtually all of them untrained, unschooled and without a backer. I would imagine many of the cars on our public roads may have tens of thousands of miles on their tires, brakes, shocks and alignments.

The drivers often are on their way to or from work, some tired, some stressed and from my observation at least half of them are on cell phones that are neither hands nor eyes free.

Driving a stick shift RWD car on the track is a low risk, relatively speaking low skills required activity. For pity's sake, most of the time those of us NON pros are permitted on the track only after the driver before us is a speck in the distance and if any incident happens, our in car walkie talkie advises us to "stand down."

None of these systems exists on Interstate 70 as we drive east to west, etc.

What makes X-drive or quattro make their "host cars" better?

We can debate this until the cows come home or until titanium rusts. AWD generally speaking is the optimum system for the most challenging, high risk, danger filled driving we know of.

The best system on the track may well be RWD -- but, there are ample articles that suggest AWD in such circumstances (on the track) is employed to increase performance around the "ring" around the course or rally. Further AWD is used when traction limits the ability to accelerate or corner, if one driving a RWD car that is traction challenged, AWD -- not superior driving skills -- will ameliorate this.

On this very site you can find, "the Porsche 911 Turbo, uses AWD for performance purposes like getting from zero-to-sixty in 3.7 seconds. Even with sufficient horsepower, a Porsche with only two-wheel drive would be traction-limited to high 4- or low 5-second zero-to-sixty times. the Porsche 911 Turbo, use AWD for performance purposes like getting from zero-to-sixty in 3.7 seconds. Even with sufficient horsepower, a Porsche with only two-wheel drive would be traction-limited to high 4- or low 5-second zero-to-sixty times."

Elsewhere you can find the performance enhancement attributes that AWD brings to ON TRACK situations.

But, "on the track" things are controlled, skill levels can be lower -- not that they are lower -- with virtually no danger to life or limb.

On the highways, we need ABS's ability to "pump" the brakes 18 times per second allowing steering to continue during hard braking. Detecting imminent lock up, backing off, steering and repeating this sequence is the purview and passion of an ABS system -- and it doesn't get tired and it can repeat, with precision, the activity essentially forever.

Contemporary AWD systems (e.g. X-drive,) like four wheel brakes, makes the most of the capability of the four contact patches.

If a professional race car driver is even capable of this is a topic for another debate. I assume we all would agree that the millions of drivers who never train on controlled tracks in UHP cars, may retain higher control (and be able to eek out a smidge more performance) in a car that has all the technology possible. AWD, ESP, ABS+Brake Assist, Torque Vectoring, EDL, ETC and an ever growing list of TLA's, may actually make adequate drivers "better."

This is a good thing.

Three things, for years, have been known to improve "drivers" -- education, engineering and enforcement (of the rules of the road.)

You are correct to decry the lack of education (which one would presume could improve skills) but to suggest that engineering (such as AWD, ESP, ABS, etc etc etc) solutions are but mere crutches that mask mistakes and give drivers a false sense of capability approaches being disingenuous.

I said approaches -- for I do not for a moment believe you actually want to disallow (or disavow) all these technologies. My god, imagine how terrible it would be to drive on our highways if folks did not have ABS, ESP, AWD and even FWD (which is far more forgiving in most cases than RWD).

Driving on the track, unless you are an engineer, a professional test driver or racer is helpful for "YOU" in terms of skills building (education.)

So few folks ever get such training, however, I suspect it is almost statistically insignificant however.

Driver's ed? Not really helpful in the sense I suspect you (and I) would hope.

AWD trumps either FWD or RWD in the circumstances that are most likely to put us at greatest risk. IF RWD is superior on the relatively safe and controlled race track environment, it is "nice to know," probably even "important." It is not, however, "the way we mere mortals live."

I can't wait for my next driver training school with either Audi or BMW (it has been nearly 4 months since my last two day training class at the BMW school.) But, every single day, I have to drive about 50 miles on residential streets, county roads and interstates with tens of thousands of crazy people, drunk people, people with low performance and or underinflated and or bald tires -- some of them asleep and some of them on the verge of road rage.

Thank god for AWD cars from the likes of Audi, BMW and Mercedes -- for they truly are "better Audis, BMWs and Mercedes" for the world in which I live.

The performance driving school is a great learning experience. The main thing, tongue in cheek, however, is it allows me to identify what all the other dolts out there are doing wrong!

div2 · December 2006

On the highways, we need ABS's ability to "pump" the brakes 18 times per second allowing steering to continue during hard braking. Detecting imminent lock up, backing off, steering and repeating this sequence is the purview and passion of an ABS system -- and it doesn't get tired and it can repeat, with precision, the activity essentially forever.

No one said they didn't want ABS- at least as it is implemented by BMW, where it doesn't intervene until it is REALLY needed. I would still like to be able to disable it for certain situations.

AWD trumps either FWD or RWD in the circumstances that are most likely to put us at greatest risk.

And those situations are???

can't wait for my next driver training school with either Audi or BMW (it has been nearly 4 months since my last two day training class at the BMW school.) But, every single day, I have to drive about 50 miles on residential streets, county roads and interstates with tens of thousands of crazy people, drunk people, people with low performance and or underinflated and or bald tires -- some of them asleep and some of them on the verge of road rage.

Which is precisely why I push drivers schools such as the ones offered by CCA. Sure, they are conducted on a closed course, but the goal is to develop skills that can be put to good use on the street.

Thank god for AWD cars from the likes of Audi, BMW and Mercedes -- for they truly are "better Audis, BMWs and Mercedes" for the world in which I live.

Sorry, but I still fail to see how an AWD vehicle gives you any sort of advantage in dealing with crazies, drunks, and so on. To deal with those situations you will be much better served by improving you car control skills- as opposed to placing the majority of your trust in a car's drivetrain and/or electronic safety nets. And those skills will be applicable to any vehicle you drive. Just ask the inept fool in the Subaru WRX who tried-and failed-to keep up with me on a damp twisting country road. Did I mention that I was driving my Jeep Wrangler? In 2WD?

markcincinnati · December 2006

The circumstances "of greatest risk" are on the public roads, not on the track was one of the key points made. And, AWD can offer greater control (both for the offending driver and the defending driver) than either form of 2WD.

AWD gives drivers options -- due to the increased traction and the ability that the technology provides to direct power to more than two wheels.

And, again, you are correct, improved car control skills would serve all of us better.

Yet, given the reality of the situation where so few drivers have these skills or have done little to develop these skills (as you apparently have and as I hope I, too, have) the drivetrain and other systems can act as safety nets. Brakes, unassisted, mechanical or hydraulic, disc or drum are safety nets, no? Somehow I detect a hint of either disdain or disappointment -- due to the characterization of such things as ABS, AWD, ESP, etc as "electronic safety nets" -- that we continue to enhance a driver's capabilities with technology.

Here is perhaps another point -- unfortunately not original on my part -- if these systems either increase the capabilities of "inept fools" (or as I call them, dolts) or decrease their frequency and severity of "incidents," imagine what would happen were these safety nets made available to folks who have the skills to run away from a Subaru WRX in a 2WD Jeep on a low coefficient of friction country road?

At my most recent 3 day driving school in Europe, we were blessed with a visit from none other than Walter Röhrl. We were given demonstration rides with Röhrl in Audi A4 quattro's on a closed track covered in ice. The car was shod with 4 studded snow tires.

We were treated to a series of "impossible" experiences with Röhrl behind the wheel. Braking, oversteering, understeering, driving with the throttle, entering and recovering from complete spinouts time and time again.

I asked him why we did everything on ice (a question I repeated at the BMW driving school which is virtually identical to Audis except it is performed on "polished concrete" that is continuously flooded with water). Röhrl (and the BMW instructor) responded that on ice or on flooded smooth concrete the car behaved as it would behave on dry pavement, but at much lower speeds and with an associated increase in lifespan of the tires and brakes.

In other words learning to drive fast on low coefficient of friction surfaces was less expensive because the cars and their tires didn't wear as quickly.

Further Röhrl said (and at the time he was "on loan" from Porsche to Audi) AWD was able to get more of the engine's power to the road than 2WD. He (and the BMW instructors alike) went on to describe load shift under acceleration and braking and also during cornering.

When entering a corner and braking sharply, waiting that fraction of a second for the load to shift to the front wheels then attempting to accelerate (in a RWD car) the rear has had the load reduced, hence the ability to put power down is also reduced (for that split second the RWD car behaves much like a FWD car when accelerating hard from a full stop -- where the driven wheels have less weight on them due to the weight shift to the rear.) In certain circumstances (load shifting circumstances) either kind of 2WD can find itself unable to use the engine's power most effectively and efficiently.

AWD compensates for this (most modern AWD) by virtue of the fact that the wheels with the greatest load on them also have access to the engine's power -- there is virtually no loss.

Imagine if you had but 2 wheel brakes -- imagine if you had rear only brakes. Your stopping distances would be greater than if you have 4 wheel brakes.

Much of the same "physics" works when all wheels are able to apply the engine's power to the road.

Walter Röhrl went up Pike's Peak with all four wheels clawing at the road.

A lesser skilled driver will benefit from the drivetrain and electronic devices. But not nearly as much as a more skilled driver.

Now of course I didn't really expect Walter Röhrl to be dissing AWD -- it was an Audi driver training school after all. But when the BMW instructors recited the same party line (essentially "2 wheels driven good, 4 wheels driven best") I decided to continue my pursuit of such safety nets -- for the simple reason they increase and improve the performance of both the car and the driver.

BMW certainly will be spreading X-drive nearly universally across their product line. Also certainly they will do this because it will sell more cars. Perhaps some "purists" will avoid such cars seeking only RWD manual transmission equipped versions, eschewing too, sat nav and radio, climate control and 14 way power seats and power articulating steering wheels.

And, as long as they can sell enough of the "pure" cars or charge enough for them regardless of volume to make a decent profit they will continue to make and market them.

These cars days are numbered, however. Just as we have morphed from 90% stick 10% auto to 10% stick 90% auto (and even that might be generous to the stick versions) we continue to morph toward the full implementation of AWD across all classes and price categories. If these technologies (AWD ringed by electronic capabilities) actually were decreasing the control, fun, performance and safety of these cars, they would go the way of the non-twist off bottle cap. Instead we are seeing an ever more rapid adoption of them -- even from the "stubborn Germans" like BMW and Mercedes (Audi has been embracing this approach for some 25 years.)

At this point in Germany at least -- in the coveted middle child segment (Audi A6, BMW 5 and Mercedes E) Audi has overtaken the BMW -- its chief rival -- in sales.

Elsewhere AWD continues to grow in popularity and its application spreads, apparently unabated.

Imagine how much further behind the hapless WRX driver would have been if you had been in a 335xi or the upcoming 535xi or perhaps an Audi RS4 or one with the upcoming Torque Vectoring Technology which seems to do for engine power distribution what ESP has done for skid avoidance and recovery.

I can't wait. And, if you can do THAT in a 2WD Jeep, it boggles my mind what you could do in something like an RS4. :surprise:

circlew · December 2006

Mark,

You say it so much better than I could ever dream of.

I've experienced real-life dolt-avoidance with a defensive maneuver in a situation where as I was passing a Ford mini-van in the left lane and up to his door, he decides to make an extreme left turn into a gas station that we were both just about to pass. We were literally side-by side. Obvious that he didn't see me and no time to brake, I instinctively followed his angle and increased speed up and around the dolt in the oncoming lanes just in front and around his line. The car responded beautifully and because I was lucky no one was in the oncoming lanes, I made it back without further incident. I assume they train you at CCA for such situations but this rig made it seem easy and there was no time to think, just react. If I was in my LS, with no driver training behind me, well, who knows how that car would have behaved. This 3'er toasts the Link in the handling department.

Div, I can't wait until you, Fed or Ship decide to test drive one of these newer AWD to tell us what you guys can do with this "small mini-van" awd 3'er! If on the track, all the better! I know it's out of your element but always will appreciate your feedback.

Why let the Audi guys have all the fun?

Regards,
OW

markcincinnati · December 2006

Despite my personal enthusiasm for AWD "where real people drive" and to a slightly lesser extent on the track, I must remind [myself if no one else] AWD currently can add AT LEAST 150 pounds to the weight of the car.

And, generally speaking, more weight is NOT a good thing.

However, therefore, notwithstanding. . .ever lighter and stronger materials (for all parts of the automobile) and more power and torque and ever more refined suspension systems often mitigate much of the added weight's disadvantages and allow the advantages of AWD to shine brightly.

Please note, too, that BMW (for one) does NOT base its X-drive on a FWD biased drive train. Even Audi, for years touting a 50% 50% nominal torque split, has promised a shift to rear biased AWD and a move to better balance the weight distribution (as BMW already does.)

Many AWD vehicles retain a severe FWD torque split (Volvo's literature on several of their cars claims a "nominal" 95% 5% FWD bias, for instance.)

All AWD is not created equal. Audi, BMW and Mercedes happen to do AWD equal to or better than most. A TorSen differential (used in several applications, not limited to Audi, i.e.) provides "binding" in real time. Other systems require at least some wheel slippage before they transfer power to the wheels with the most traction some .1 seconds later.

Under the real world circumstances the vast majority of us live in, however, the modern [German, for one] AWD systems are "for all practical purposes" considered "instant on."

Of course several of the American and Japanese car companies also produce very comparable AWD systems too -- Infiniti's system (essentially RWD with AWD capabilities) leaps to mind.

I just wanted to clarify that AWD is no where near perfect and sometimes can be far from it. On the other hand, as AWD advancements continue to be dreamt up and innovated/implemented in our cars, it is clear that AWD (when surrounded by other supporting and complimentary technologies) is slowly but surely becoming universal.

Now, couple this technology with training (both on track and on road) and we will almost certainly advance everyone's control, fun, performance and safety behind the wheel.

It is better, yes, but it isn't perfect is the message here. :shades:

Drive it like you live.

fedlawman · December 2006

If a person has never driven a car without ABS, they never learn about threshold braking.

If they never drive a car without ESP, they never learn about skid control/avoidance.

If they never drive a 2WD car, they never learn about the friction circle and weight transfer.

When a student pilot is learning to fly, do they hop right into a Citation X with autopilot, GPS Nav, and FADEC controlled jet engines? No, they must first learn the basics of aerodynamics, stalls, pilotage/dead reckoning, power/fuel management, etc.

Same with cars. Sure, AWD, ESC, ABS, and all the rest make cars safer and easier to control. But they also mask/forgive poor driving skills. There are many situations where electronic systems can prevent an accident, but there are also many where it can cause an accident. Do most drivers know this? How is a dolt ever going to get better if he doesn't know he's a dolt? And when the dolt in his 300hp AWD, ESP, TPS equipped Acura RL loses it on black ice and slams into a tree because one of his tires was low and ESP automatically disengaged, who will he sue? Acura? the tire manufacturer? The State DOT (for allowing a tree to be so close to the road)? The TPS manufacturer? How about his high school drivers ed teacher for not teaching him how to drive?

A little off-topic, but funny anecdote. I am reminded of the time not long ago when I was in line at the ferry terminal and I noticed a woman parked in front of me in her Range Rover. I noticed that her right front tire was almost completely flat and the outer edge of the tread/shoulder was worn almost to the chord. I knocked on her window and (after she realized I wasn't a serial killer) showed her the tire and explained that it must have been flat for many, many miles to have worn so much. She said she hadn't noticed it (she couldn't feel anything in the steering!?!?). I told her I keep a air pump in my car and offered to fill her tire with air. She declined my offer. After getting off the ferry at the other side, she passed three gas stations on her way to her destination, wherever it was.

Clearly we're all in agreement about the benefits of AWD (and other modern systems). I think we're just talking point of view here - every silver lining is attached to a black cloud, right?

I'm comforted knowing that my wife's Volvo has 8 airbags, ABS, ESP, TPS, and twelve other acronyms working for her. I also know that my wife has the driving skills necessary to handle the BMW (which does have ABS!) in an emergency too.

fedlawman · December 2006

"And, generally speaking, more weight is NOT a good thing."

Correct.

"ever lighter and stronger materials (for all parts of the automobile) and more power and torque and ever more refined suspension systems often mitigate much of the added weight's disadvantages and allow the advantages of AWD to shine brightly."

These stronger materials, power, torque, and suspension improvements can also be applied to a non-AWD car.

"couple this technology with training."

Great. How do we do this? With non-ABS, ESP, RWD cars!

"It is better, yes, but it isn't perfect."

Not better, just different. Have you ever driven a Subaru WRX (not the STi)? It's fast, and handles very well, but it is also incredibly boring. Imagine this same car, but now it's RWD and weighs 200 lbs less. Now you have a Japanese M3.

cdnpinhead · December 2006

Remember how we got shouted down on the LS board when we voiced our doubts about Lincoln's level of commitment to the LS?

Boy, do I ever. Nice keeping up with you on various other boards these days. Continue to keep us posted, and Merry Christmas.

circlew · December 2006

All restaurants are Taco bell but there is always something different on the menu.

AWD is different, yes and RWD came first. In the '60's and '70's the cars were a lot more dangerous due to the lack of technology. Were they fun? Unbelievably.

Back then, your Dad, Mom, Uncle or other family member would teach you to "drive". Much like the financial training lacking in school even today, driver skill amounted to passing the written and making sure you had the parallel parking down in the driving section.

Now, everyone has a license to "drive" and everyone also has a cell phone. I'm glad the tech is advancing but sadly, the lack of training will only multiply.

Does awd make us better drivers. No way, of course we understand. I think we can have both RWD and AWD for a while but I believe awd will keep multiplying like the new drivers! How do I know?? Easy...the big three (forgive me, Toyota) are now offering it!

And boring AWD? Just turn off the Nannys!

Regards,
OW

div2 · December 2006

If a person has never driven a car without ABS, they never learn about threshold braking.

I once had a Safety School student who brought an E32 750i. She told me that-according to her salesperson-the car didn't have ABS. Once I corrected that misconception, I had her work on some braking exercises. I told her to hammer the brakes as hard as she could. Her first stop was maybe .15 G at best. It took her several more attempts before she was able to apply the brakes hard enough to engage the ABS. The magic boffins can only take you so far.

When a student pilot is learning to fly, do they hop right into a Citation X with autopilot, GPS Nav, and FADEC controlled jet engines? No, they must first learn the basics of aerodynamics, stalls, pilotage/dead reckoning, power/fuel management, etc.

Excellent point. Scott Hughes is a past Driving Events Coordinator for CCA and he always said that he wished he could start his students out in 1969 1600s complete with the OEM 165/80-13 Michelin X tires. As an aside, I once had the opportunity to "practice" in an M1A1 Abrams combat simulator at Fort Knox. With all the electronics operational I was able to engage and destroy every target the instructor threw at me- including an Mi-24 Hind, which I dispatched with the 120mm main gun. However, the real students have to learn how to engage the enemy with some or all of the electronics off line. If only we could train all drivers in the same fashion...

I'm comforted knowing that my wife's Volvo has 8 airbags, ABS, ESP, TPS, and twelve other acronyms working
for her.

My wife's X3 2.5 is also equipped with all the Bavarian acronyms. Even though she's not a hard-core track junkie, she has attended one of our Safety Schools and is a big proponent of the Street Survival program.

specula8 · December 2006

I'm pulling the data below from an email the Dealer sent to me. I can't imagine this is the best deal they can put together for me. Any thoughts on this?

Key points:
1- Only $500 bucks off MSRP!!!
2- $3000k down!
3- MF = .00205

36 months / 45k total miles

MSRP: $47,490
Sale Price: $46,990 (Plus we are paying for your mats which cost $125 = total discount is $625)
Residual = 61% of MSRP = $28,968.90
Money Factor = .00205 (Multiply that number by 2400 = 4.92% approximate interest rate)
Mileage Rate = 15 cents/mile

Sale Price: $46,990 + Zimbrick Service Charge: $89 + Acquisition Fee: $625 = Cap Cost: $47,704
(subtract)
Cap Reduction = $2,115.84
equals
Adjusted Cap Cost = $45,588.16

Monthly Depreciation = $461.65
Monthly Lease Charge = $152.84
Base Monthly Payment = $614.49
Monthly Use Tax (5.5%) = $33.80
Total Monthly Payment = $648.29

Cap Reduction = $2,115.84
Cap Reduction Tax = 116.37
First Monthly Payment = 648.29
Security Deposit = 0
DMV Title, Tags, Registration = 119.50
Total Due at Inception = $3,000.00

markcincinnati · December 2006

I suspect you think I disagree with you because I am a proponent of the TLA's (ABS, ESP, ETC, and so forth.)

I totally agree with you at least in theory.

Today my in-laws purchased a new car. A $33,000 Chrylser product.

The car came with ABS, AWD, ESP and brake assist. The car is RWD biased AWD. It has "power everything" and a 5 speed autotrans, satellite radio and a whole bunch of other electronic stuff.

Not too long ago my neighbor bought his college aged daughter a late model used car -- her first car but not the first car she has ever driven.

I believe these two opposite end of the age spectrum folks have never been to any schooling whatsoever (perhaps the 19 year old young woman took "driver's ed" in high school to help lower mom and dad's insurance premiums.)

I have, apparently, like you, railed on and on about how EVERYONE's kids ought to learn to drive a stick shift. And, also like you, I do believe the 19 year old at least has not a clue about threshold braking. Every car she has ever driven has been equipped with ABS and probably mom and dad's daily driver has Stabilitrak (ESP by another name, for all intents and purposes.) Now, her new used car is of a certain vintage and it too has ABS and maybe even some sort of stability control. Her boyfriend has a 2002 A4 1.8T quattro and his dad has a two year old A8L.

These "kids" from a certain point of view don't stand a chance for all the technology has "always" been there for them.

If their car's have on-off switches for ESP (as my in-laws new 2007 car), I'd wager they have no idea why they ever might want to turn it off and they may not even know what it does in any case.

What are "we" gonna do?

We are not going to undo the forward progress of the car manufacturers, we are not going to turn off the ABS and even the ESP off switch does NOT fully deactivate the "nanny" as someone called it.

If we were to be really hard core, we should perhaps even want folks to know what manual brakes and steering feels like. I learned to drive on a car (and probably the next car or two, too) that had neither power steering or power brakes. Eventually I got a car -- a Plymouth Duster, as I recall -- that had power steering, but it still had manual drum brakes.

Until my current car (and, frankly for a time even WITH my current car), which is a 2005 Audi A6 3.2 with every option save sport suspension (much to chagrin), I argued long and hard about the dearth of manual transmission cars (that I would want to buy/lease.) Indeed, I custom ordered a 6 speed manual 2.7T Audi allroad in 2003 figuring it might very well be the last manual I might ever have the opportunity to enjoy.

I was pretty close to right, BTW. My wife, in 2005 was able to custom order a BMW X3 with every possible option except metallic paint and auto transmission and we are now 16 months to go before it too goes the way of the do-do.

Yet, shazaam, surprise, surprise Sgt. Carter, the 6 speed tiptronic in my Audi has been darn close to auto-nirvana.

I must admit I am looking forward to the upcoming Audi transformation to 7 speed DSG transmission. And, the rumor mill says BMW will soon be dumping the dreadful SMG transmission. As an aside, I read, which may or may not mean a hill of beans, that the reason the M5 was first offered without a clutch pedal then later with one (in the US market at least) was because the SMG transmission it came with was, er, dreadful.

When BMW adopts the "DSG-like" clutchless manual transmission Audi brought out, I predict the virtual death of (if it has not already happened) BMW's with stick shifts (in this country, at least.)

So whattya do with a 19 year old young person these days? "Force" them to find an ABS-less, ESP-less, manual transmission car to make sure their schoolin' (in driving at least) is complete?

With regret and all due respect -- a moment of silence please -- it ain't gonna happen; and even if it does it is, in the scheme of things, statistically insignificant.

I want folks to attend the safety schools, the driving schools and every so often attend them again.

I fear, unless so mandated, people just won't do it.

I also fear, unless so mandated, people won't start using hands free, eyes free phones in their cars while driving.

I also fear that cars like mine, unless mandated to be equipped with voice command for many of the 82 knobs, switches, buttons, dials, toggles and rotaries, will continue to proliferate and be the cause of and ever growing number of "accidents" (while trying to figure out how to play track 7 on disc two of their CD stack by pressing buttons and staring at a sea of controls.)

We are unlikely to return to plain old mono AM radio too.

Where I am going with all of this is to simultaneously agree with you, have great, almost uncanny empathy with you (perhaps even sympathy) yet suggest you Google the word "Luddite."

Before you fire off an epithet, I assure you that I am probably much more like you and in agreement with what you write than all the verbosity my little fingers peck out may seem to suggest.

OTOH, I have become somewhat more pragmatic what with the advent of my current car (the autotrans, remember?) and the numerous driving schools I have attended put on by Audi & BMW.

I am embracing the technology, even though SOMETIMES, I might call it a nanny.

Frankly, since my 19 year old neighbor and my post retirement in-laws are going to be victims of spontaneous combustion before they will ever attend another driving class (of any kind) unless so mandated as punishment for some transgression behind the wheel, I don't want them driving vehicles that do not come equipped with every technological assistant affordable (by mere mortals) in a modern car.

And, finally, if I don't run out of bytes, someone wrote that AWD is good for folks who drive "often" in/on rain, snow, ice, etc.

As both my instructors (from Audi AND BMW, alike) retorted when someone in the class made the "yea but RWD is best for racing argument and AWD is really mostly for 'slick conditions,'" argument: everything that makes AWD "desirable" on slick surfaces makes it desirable on dry surfaces. "You see, everything that happens at 20kph on a slick surface is EXACTLY the same as will happen on a perfectly dry surface -- but for the symptoms to manifest on dry pavement, the speeds have to be much higher."

Thus, like our mutually agreed "threshold braking" point, there is huge value in learning to get a car completely out of control on a super slick surface -- for the skills learned to recover under such conditions are completely transferable to higher speeds on dry pavement. Likewise, the fact that AWD is "better" on the slick is precisely the reason it is so valuable (moreso my professional instructors claimed) on dry pavement. Love the discourse!

circlew · December 2006

Even though Taco bell had a contaminated lettuce scare recently, all is back to normal now. The USDA "nanny" seems to have everything under control.

Speaking of the slow death of manual transmissions, I read there was an internal concern in the fatherland that the '09 M was to have an a slush box option but the M engineers stood their ground and only manual will rule...this time around.

BTW, one of the fastest cars on the 1/4 mile track, the famous "funny cars" transitioned to slush boxes to get better e/t's.

Regards,
OW

circlew · December 2006

On the '07 M, the ZCP has some new tech.

ZCP Competition Package
Includes "M track" mode for the Dynamic Stability Control,

How does this work?

Regards,
OW

designman · December 2006

Safety is one thing but I think most of todays nannies are profit motivated and exploit the current all-American quest for security and guarantees. I agree with div2, believe in DE and automotive survival. There are parents who dont want their kids to be in the Boy Scouts because they fear nature and branches falling on their heads. Screw that. Common Sense 101 rules.

circlew · December 2006

Dman,

Everyone is a genious in the beginning...life just de-geniuses them.

Tech will march on...lane departure systems, mixed with GPS and ever increasing computer power in autos will "de-genius" the road warriors of the present and past. Transportation will be safer in the end. Of course, all for profit. And you can safely cell-phone away as long as you buckle-up!

I have no doubt that the museum pieces we drive today will still be allowed on the track to have some weekend fun. Or, Dr. Doom will do for me.

Regards,
OW

designman · December 2006

Transportation will be safer in the end.

Yeah, I suppose if we enclosed our homes in oxygen tents it would be "safer in the end" too. Or would it? We're becoming a society of [non-permissible content removed]. Really.

;-)

fedlawman · December 2006

BMW already eliminated the dipstick, and a Lexus can parallel park by itself.

If the march of "progress" continues, cars will eventually come with an autopilot, and we might as well all ride the bus. Personally, I don't think it will happen.

As long as there are automobiles, there will be automobile racing. And as long as there is racing, there will be stick shift RWD sports cars sold in the US.

Here's to hoping that Bavarian Autosport forever stocks E30 parts and Toyo never discontinues the RA-1!

div2 · December 2006

ZCP Competition Package
Includes "M track" mode for the Dynamic Stability Control,

How does this work?

The M track mode raises the intervention threshold of the DSC. In other words, the nanny waits a bit longer to rap your knuckles!

div2 · December 2006

Continue to keep us posted, and Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you as well!!!

div2 · December 2006

This post may be a bit off-topic, but I think that it also dovetails nicely with the current discussion on electronic driving aids...
As some of you know, I've been looking for a sedan that would serve as my commuter sled as well as provide a bit of over-the top excitement at other times. I've been cross-shopping like mad, and two of my finalists are the Charger SRT-8 and the E39 M5. I always thoroughly research any cars I might be considering, so I had already dug up a couple of Car and Driver and Road & Track back issues which contained tests of the Dodge and BMW. Today I received the 2/07 issue of CD and lo and behold, it contains a comparison test of the Audi S6, the M5(with the newly available six speed manual), and the Mercedes E63 AMG. Just for fun I pulled out my 9/01 CD test of the E39 M5 and made a few comparisons of my own. The E60 M5 is a couple of inches bigger and 120 lbs. heavier. The front/rear weight distribution is identical(51/49). The V10 in the new M5 packs 106 more hp than the V8 in the E39, but it only produces 15 additional lb-ft of torque(which by the way, peaks at 6100 rpm- 2300 rpm higher than the E39's S62 V8).
To my surprise, the E39 M5 performed just as well as its successor. In acceleration, braking, and handling the differences in performance were razor thin. In fact, the only test in which the E60 held a decisive edge was in the 0-150 mph time, where the new car was @4 seconds faster. Now, here's why the E60 under performs: The DSC cannot be totally disabled on the new six speed M5s. According to CD, the M Dynamic mode helps a bit but the DSC is still much too intrusive. If you want to kill the DSC completely you'll have to accept the seven speed SMG. The SMG car was a tick faster in a straight line-by 0.5 second 0-60 as well as the 1/4 mile-but handling was where the ability to kill the DSC REALLY helped. The SMG car was five miles per hour faster through the slalom and pulled an additional .06 lateral g on the skidpad.
From my standpoint, there's little -if any- reason to spring for the new M5- at least if you want to row your own gears. Especially since I consider the E60 to be a step backward in terms of aesthetics as well as ergonomics.
FWIW, the Benz won the test, followed by the S6 and the M5. And just to throw a little more fuel on the fire, the DSC-neutered M5 was just as fast as the S6 in the slalom, but the S6 pulled an additional .04 lateral g on the skidpad. The S6 was also a bit more porky, weighing exactly 400 lbs.(or @5 Nicole Richies) more than the M5. You pays yer money...

brightness04 · December 2006

My guess is that when they sell $50k commuter planes to Tom, Dick and Jane, the pilot training program will pretty much consist of how to set autopilot and flip through GPS menus.

There is a huge diffrence between what's taught to hobbyists and professionals (where pilots are nowadays) and what's taught to utilitarian tool users (where drivers are howadays). I'm old enough to have learned computers starting with binary numbers, finite state machines and the Turing Tape . . . but I doubt any middle school are going through that any more before letting their students use word processors and push the mouse around. Do they even teach command prompt any more? I doubt it.

circlew · December 2006

Go for the SRT8! Even though resale is lower, I believe bang-for-the buck is way up there. In my test drive, I kept noticing the salesman's head snapping forward and back as I got a feeling for how it performed. It would be a great sled to commute with. I bet it's similar to the E63AMG in some areas.

Regards and Merry Christmas,
OW

markcincinnati · December 2006

I read this test too and came away somewhat scratching my balding head. . . .

The BMW and Mercedes were the "go fast" versions of their makers. Or perhaps, better said, the "special go fast" versions. The Audi was not the RS version, which -- according to people who write for a LIVING rather than what we do for fun -- is the counter to the AMG and M. The upcoming, RS6 -- if one manifests -- would be the one to compare to the then current AMG and M.

On the other hand, the surprise was the S6 coming in second. For pity's sake this is a car that hasn't even undergone any of the "promised" reduction in front end weight.

Audis regardless of one's opinions are "nose heavy." BMW's ditto your opinion are almost always nearly perfectly balanced.

The S6 WAS more porky and it has a "fat nose" (as opposed to a fat rear, don't you know) yet it "kept up with" a far superior M5 (in terms of balance.)

I can only assume the ESP in the S6, if it is typical Audi, cannot be fully disengaged either.

There was, in this test, somewhat of a warning, one could conclude that a better balanced, RS6 might even topple the AMG (at least for it's "15 minutes of fame" until the next M5 and/or AMG came out which would then dethrone the Audi for 15 minutes until the next gen [C7,C8 etc] RS6 came out and once again dethroned the then champeen -- rinse, lather, repeat, etc.)

BTW, my previous comments pertaining to advantages were focussed on AWD vs RWD (and more broadly 2WD) -- not about ESP, etc. For the street, I still want that 19 year old young woman and my late 70's in-laws to have AWD cars with all the electronic assists Hans and Franz can dream up.

Allowing you to fully turn them off on the track is ALSO something I want. :surprise:

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! :shades:

fedlawman · December 2006

Practically anyone could buy an IFR certified Cessna for $25K. It's the cost of insurance, pilot training, maintenance, and mooring that keeps Tom, Dick, and Jane out of the pilot seat - and likely always will.

I remember a field trip to the computer science lab at Concordia University when I was in high school. We were able to produce a stack of punch cards and put them in the receptacle. 10 minutes later, I had a 4' tall picture of Snoopy printed on perforated paper!

Kids may not know what DOS is, but at least nobody gets injured when a blue screen appears...

circlew · December 2006

"Allowing you to fully turn them off on the track is ALSO something I want."

My sentiments exactly! In other words, train the "nannies" to stay home while you go to the track and learn and have some fun.

Have a Safe, Healthy and Happy Holidays (read, ESP, HP, 2WD/6M/M or AMG)

Regards,
OW

div2 · December 2006

Go for the SRT8! Even though resale is lower, I believe bang-for-the buck is way up there.

I'm really having a tough time deciding which way to go. I've found a nice 2001 CPO M5 as well as a 2006 Charger SRT-8 with less than 2K miles. I consider the M5 to be almost a four door 911(and of course I prefer the six speed manual), while the Dodge is just completely crazy. If I can grab the Dodge for a few grand less than the M5, I might just do it. The one thing I really don't like about the Dodge is its outward visibility- or lack thereof. I feel like I'm driving a chopped and channeled 32 Ford coupe- though I suppose that is part of the appeal. I got my drivers license just as the horsepower wars of the sixties were winding down, so finally owning a full-tilt V8 musclecar would be a bit of a nostalgia trip- the Hemi King of the Street that I missed the first time around. Overall the Charger isn't that much bigger than the E60 M5 and it may prove cheaper to maintain as well. We'll see...

circlew · December 2006

I agree...the Dodge is great for the raw power...I'd like to get your feedback if you decide to with it. It would be interesting for you to rate that ride vs. others you have experienced and I love to see the guy's face with WRX if you found him again with the Dodge in your hands!

Have fun either way, 'cause your alternate is a great choice also.

Regards,
OW

circlew · December 2006

No, the fist dolt who'd light up by the oxygen would wind up looking like Freddie Kruger!

Look on the bright side...you can never stop progress, no matter what form it takes, you just have to adapt! I would hate to go backwards! I don't know much technically but when the first blanket of snow hit the mid west this year, I heard many deaths on the road resulted.

I just appreciate all the help I can get. If that means more training, I look forward to it. But as new systems get perfected, I am sure we can find a way to get the fun factor enhanced along with the techno-ride. Don't you think night vision is cool??

Have a great Holiday season!

Regards,
OW

cdnpinhead · December 2006

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

. . . and to you as well, my verbose & thought-provoking colleague (hope I'm not being overly presumptuous here).

circlew · December 2006

Here's wishing all of the members and hosts a Healthy, Happy and Safe Holidays!

Thanks for all of your help.

Regards,
OW

designman · December 2006

Look on the bright side...you can never stop progress, no matter what form it takes, you just have to adapt!

Well, Ill judge progress myself and go kicking and screaming into the illusion of progress if there are no alternatives. The only new BMW I would buy today is a 3-series coupe without iDrive but theres no place for it in the scheme of my stable right now. The upcoming M3 has me interested also. It would be nice to know I can replace my E39 530i with another BMW but it only has 26K miles so Im sticking with it for quite some time, I think.

Porsche progressed and I dont like it either. I was considering taking advantage of year-end bargaining power and treating myself to a new 911, replacing my 986 Boxster S, but I finally drove a couple of setups a few weeks ago and was glad to get back into my Boxster. Porsche is right in there with the BS. 911s just arent the same anymore in my opinion. Theyve become spongy, numb, light on the steering and more detached from the feel of the road compared their predecessors. At least thats the way I see it with the C2 and C2S. Maybe the higher ticket Porsches are different but I am not going that deep into the pocket book. I am now considering a 993 or 996 including the Turbo versions, a 996 GT3, 987, E39 M5 and C6 Z06, the latter of which is a longshot. I am considering the Z06 for quite the same reason that Div2 is considering the SRT8. I witnessed a lot of classmates have hot cars bought for them by their daddies back in the late 60s while I drooled. However, I just have this feeling if I went with the Vette I would tire of it very quickly because handling, not power, is my first preference, not to mention that perhaps nothing can bring back the splendor in the grass. So Div2, I would take this into consideration also. I think the M5 has more staying power due to its all-around qualities but good luck with whatever you choose. After all, we dont have to be married to these vehicles, just throw money at them.

In any event, I am a fan of genuine progress but I dont like the nonsense that is pawned off as progress. Change for the sake of change is very popular right now. It always was but it seems more pronounced and has been taken to ridiculous levels of late. Accordingly, I am now very willing to spend a decent chunk to experience the older, classic stuff that in many ways peaked, at least with regard to my preferences, and that I was not able to afford years ago. When you think about it, a car like the E39 M5 is just tough to beat. At times I think perhaps I am just getting old but am encouraged by many others who feel the same way. Lastly, I refuse to drink the kool aid that is doled out by manufacturers and I feel confident that I am able to judge it for what it is.

Anyway, Happy Holidays to all indeed!

circlew · December 2006

Design,

I was in the same boat when the rich kids got the hot cars back then. When I test drove the 300C srt8, I was reminded of the hole shot power of a real engine. The difference was at the end of the straight, you knew the car had a suspension, unlike the prehistoric underpinnings of yore. The C6 Z06 would be my ultimate choice as well, since it DOES retain value, best in the US.

Shipo is looking at the debut of the '09 Challenger with the new Hemi. That should kick some life into the party. Hopefully, the Camaro return will bring some hope for guys like us to really have more choices.

The '09 M3 will definitely be more desirable at the end of the day because the focus has been there with BMW much longer the the SRT team at DC and probably will be more careful not to "progress" to far from the preferences of the loyal car guys that have supported them.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly appreciate your point of view and hope there will always be choices for those that want what they want, damn the progress.

Best Regards,
OW

2007 3-Series

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