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2007 3-Series

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  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Exactly that Porsche engineered AWD into a sports car. Stay tuned.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Here is a little blurb regarding someone who drove the C4s vs. the C2. I can't wait to test drive the 335xi to see the difference!

    Title: All-Wheel Drive Makes the Carrera 4S an Even Better 911
    First Impressions: Better-looking and easier to drive than the standard model, the Carrera 4S is as good as a 911 gets — for now.
    Quote: "It's not until you lay into it around a tight bend that you begin to appreciate the Carrera 4's extra grip up front. Unlike the standard Carrera, which requires just the right amount of throttle, steering and confidence to get around a corner quickly, the 4S just yanks you around it. You never feel the power shifting between the front and rear wheels, it just goes right where you point it."

    I continue my learning experience...

    Regards,
    OW
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    Suspension on AWD performed better, imo.

    In what way? Transient response? Roll stiffness? Steady-state cornering? Yaw rate?

    Let me know when you have performed the balanced test and I will be eager to learn.

    OK, you've got me there; what's a "balanced test"?

    You really do have to experience this in the wet conditions to believe.

    As I've said before, AWD is a godsend if you don't feel confident driving in wet weather. In my experience, a good driver in a RWD car won't have any trouble keeping up with an equivalent AWD car in the rain. Will the AWD car be easier for an inexperienced driver to handle? Sure, but it can also be less fun to drive overall. I'll also admit that AWD cars can often perform better in winter conditions. Still, I've found that a RWD BMW fitted with good winter tires will do just fine.
    You see, I simply prefer a car that rewards competent driving. Others want a car that can compensate for a lack of driving ability. To each his own. I can only hope that Munich doesn't dumb down the driving experience any further.
    Which is why my next sled-if it's a BMW-will almost certainly be an E46 M3 or E39 M5. Or perhaps even an M1.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Div2,

    In what way? Transient response? Roll stiffness? Steady-state cornering? Yaw rate?

    All of the above. The difference in the flatness on the same roads was quite noticeable at all speeds. I am sure SP i would be far better. Both cars had the same tires and slush box. I wonder if the AWD suspension setup has some stiffer suspension dampening.

    The balanced test I was referring to would be a 330 i no SP vs. 330xi on a road course, slalom and skid pad, 0-60, 60-0 in the same day, same conditions.

    I can say that I am really having fun with the xi. Time will tell when a truly experienced driver can prove that it takes skill to take a car with an AWD handicap and have great fun making points to his/her counterpart all day long at the track. You really can have fun, it's just different.

    I hope that Munich always offers a choice.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Some cars "benefit" from the performance of AWD, and others don't.

    BMW offers AWD versions of their sedans to customers in the smowbelt looking for all-weather traction - but at the expense of handling and acceleration. No all-wheel drive BMW is faster around a racetrack than it's RWD equivalent.

    Porsche, on the other hand, offers AWD on the 911 as a performance "upgrade." AWD on the 911 helps minimize the rear wheel traction issues that are a normal part of the 911 driving experience (and arguably what makes the 911 so much fun to drive when in capable hands). AWD in the 911 makes the handling more neutral and easier to manage by less experienced drivers. So...

    For the average driver, a C4S is certainly quicker around a racetrack than a C2S. For a skilled 911 pilot, the C2S and C4S are probably about an even match in lap times, but the C2S absolutely is more challenging, entertaining, and rewarding to drive.

    And after all, isn't that why we're here? If you don't care about the drive, why not just get a Lexus and be done with it?
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    BMW offers AWD versions of their sedans to customers in the snow belt looking for all-weather traction - but at the expense of handling and acceleration. No all-wheel drive BMW is faster around a racetrack than it's RWD equivalent.

    I will wait for the performance upgrade. I assume you have first-hand experience with BMW-AWD. Let's keep this topic open as the technology progresses.

    In the meantime, check it out. It is really fun and will not bite you. Really!

    So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior the the RWD equivalent.

    I might just as well wait for the 335 xi which will probably beat an old M3 around the track.

    Best Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior to the RWD equivalent."

    Not likely. The "xi" will still weigh more, ride higher, handle worse and stop longer that the equivalent "i" model (and accelerate slower in all but the most slippery conditions).

    "I might just as well wait for the 335 xi which will probably beat an old M3 around the track."

    Not a chance. The E46 M3 has a superior power to weight ratio, superior suspension, superior rubber and superior brakes. The old M3 will easily hand any factory original/untweaked manifestation of the (alleged) future 335xi its lunch around a track.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Well, the current 335I is said eat the old M3's lunch by coming to the table quite early, so to speak.

    I'll let you know when the 335 xi is announced. The new M3 is '09 which should be a real treat.

    Best Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "So, if I add the HP and modify the suspension of this '06 330xi, it will be superior the the RWD equivalent."

    OK, let's see how this might go. Dinan sells a high flow intake, exhaust, and throttle body kit for the 330, so you can get another 15hp for $2,500. Dinan's "Stage 1" suspension kit costs $1,500. Figure another couple grand for installation.

    What you end up with is a 330xi that costs $8,000 more than a 330i, and all it does better is climb your driveway in the snow.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Well, the current 335I is said eat the old M3's lunch by coming to the table quite early, so to speak."

    Oh really? Says who?
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    A 335xi would weigh about 3850 lbs. There are minivans that weigh less than that!
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Says those mag guys. I think the inference was that the track times met or beat the E46 M.

    Go figure...they publish the metrics. I'll check and post source.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Technical editor Don Sherman’s ears perked up at all this number crunching. With all that power, he wondered, is the 335i faster than the outgoing 333-hp E46 M3? We waved goodbye to the shiny new coupe’s rear tires, and sent him to find out.

    Don coaxed the 335i to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds--only 0.3 seconds slower than the M3. The 335i covered the quarter-mile in 13.6 seconds @ 104 mph--again, only 0.2 seconds and 1 mph behind the M3.

    2007 BMW 335i Rear View
    So in an all-out drag race, the 335i comes close, but can’t quite match the M3’s blistering acceleration. Those numbers, though, only tell half the story. Have a look at the top-gear acceleration figures. In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5.

    That, my friends, is the beauty of this engine. At full bore, it’s as fast as an M3. But at moderate engine speeds, it’s even faster. What a great way to keep us all interested until the next M3 comes comes along.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    So I assume with SP, 335 should edge e46 M in a road competition. You can assume all you want but show me the results in a true head to head show down.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    "I'm a 3 Series nut. I previously owned a 2001 330ci, then a 2002 M3 Convertible. The 330ci was a bit too slow. The M3 was fast, but too harsh to be comfortable. The new 335i coupe is a perfect combination¿ it is as fast as (dare I say FASTER than?) the M3, but far more comfortable. It looks and feels incredibly classy, handles extremely well, is the perfect size, is fairly economical (I'm averaging 19 mpg in combined driving), and really isn't all that expensive considering minivans now cost nearly $40K. The 335i is by FAR the best combination of sport, comfort and beauty. I am shocked at how much I love my new 335i. I also suspect that these cars will hold their values very well. Suggested improvements: 1) Get rid of the heavy run-flat tires! 2) Make the back seat a 3-seater instead of 2-seater! 3) PLEASE create a navigation system that does not require the dreaded iDrive!" — Mountainman, November 2, 2006

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    "While at SEMA I talked to a few companies that would like to remain nameless about upcoming chips for the 335. No one would give exact numbers, but all said that the M3 will have trouble running away from just a chipped 335. Now imagine once people start doing other bolt-ons. How relevant is the M3 going to be in the performance world?"

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    All you've shown me is a suggestion that the 335i is faster in the 30 to 70 acceleration test in top gear a completely lame test if there ever was one. No idiot in his right mind is going to race either a 335i or an M3 over a road course in top gear, unless it happens to be on a long straight at LeMans. The better metric for a head to head comparison was the quarter mile test where both cars are presumably in the proper gear for best acceleration at any given moment. Even that is thin as an overall metric for comparing the two cars. Why? The M3 should easily be able to run away and hide from a new 335i SP on a road course, even if it had a lower powered mill, due to the fact that it can turn, slalom and brake way better than the 335i.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    ...becoming the convention of the M3 wannabes. Fedlawman, I'm sure you'd trade your M3 for a new 335i, right?
    OW, you excel at quoting from magazine articles, but have you ever driven ANY car at the limit in an auto-x or on a track? There's a lot more to a good car than .01 second here or there. If all you care about are raw numbers from the buff books, why not just pick up a Neon SRT-4 and be done with it? In the meantime, those of us who drive AND read can draw our own conclusions from actual experience- as opposed to those who form their opinions based on an hour or so in front of the magazine rack at Borders.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    As Shipo has mentioned, there are several reasons why the E46 M3 would walk away from an E90 335i on a racetrack.

    Stickier tires, aggressively sport-tuned suspension, and superior brakes all equal later braking into a corner, more speed through the corner, and sooner power application out of the corner.

    The engine is another factor. Top gear roll-on tests show the benefit of the E90's flatter power delivery - more power down low and a fatter midrange than the relatively peaky M3. The 335i is a more comfortable "around town" car. Removed from public streets, however, it's a completely different story. On the racetrack, where revs rarely dip below 4000 RPM, the M3 is in it's element. The M3's power-to-weight ratio above 4000 RPM puts the 335i to shame.

    Later braking, faster cornering, sooner and harder acceleration, and quicker transitions (less weight transfer) mean the M3 is a vastly superior sporting machine than the 335i on pretty much any road.

    Div2 - no, not in a million years. But if someone gave me a 335i, I wouldn't turn it away --- I'd trade it for an Exige!
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    The engine is another factor. Top gear roll-on tests show the benefit of the E90's flatter power delivery - more power down low and a fatter midrange than the relatively peaky M3.

    Sadly, it seems that many of the so-called enthusiasts who prefer a manual transmission still don't want to shift it. My 1995 Club Sport is a barrel of laughs provided that you keep the tach above 4000 rpm. As a result, you have to shift it a lot more often than many people would prefer. As for me, I enjoy the frequent shifting; it gives me an opportunity to brush up on my heel and toe and double de-clutching skills.

    But if someone gave me a 335i, I wouldn't turn it away --- I'd trade it for an Exige!

    Ooooh... Good call!!!
    You know, whenever I look at a new car, I'm always thinking, "Hmmmm, I wonder what used car I can get for the same amount of money?"
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Now that you mention it, there are only a handful of new cars that do anything for me. None of them enough for me to part with 40+ large though...

    Your club sport doesn't look anything like this local club member's creation, does it?

    http://www.bmwpugetsound.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=31203&highlight=corvette
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Ummm, YIKES! :blush:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    I have never driven a car at at the limit in an auto-x or on a track. The assumptions I make are from info provided by people who have such as yourself, fedlawman, shipo and others on this board.

    I did some drags in the '70's, so I am familar with the limits regarding straight line acceleration.

    I draw my conclusions from those like yourself who know and give opinions based on the numbers as well as those reporting from the mags. Everything has a slant.

    When it comes down to it, the object of sharing information is a good thing and I highly respect yours and others views.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    You make excellent points and I stand corrected. I am still learning and appreciate your insights.

    Stock cars rarely are that great on the track and track cars make great street cars if the point is local fun but daily driver duty will NOT be fun in a commute scenario. I assume thats why M, AMG, SRT, V are coming to fruition as tuner options to the plain Jane models.

    So, the 335 remains a stock improvement to the 3. Got it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    You are basically right, however I would add that everyone's got a different opinion of what is acceptable for a "commuter car."

    I would have no trouble driving my M3 everyday in rush hour traffic if I needed to. Actually, my company car is a Ford Taurus now, so I do sometimes drive the M to work, just because I suffer from withdrawal if I don't get to drive the M after a few days. My M is quiet and comfortable enough for me, though I suspect that you would find it intolerable.

    There are also a fair number of club members who bring their stock E46's, E90's, and E39's to track events. Sure a track car would be a superior performer, but even stock, a BMW is obviously designed to be sporty. They are all fun to drive and competent around a racetrack.

    I think sport sedans are a reflection of us. As we (our demographic) have grown older, softer, lazier, and obtained more disposable income, the market has evolved to accomodate us. I think it's a shame that the lightest car BMW sells in the US weighs over 3000 lbs, and it is so complex that a shadetree mechanic wouldn't dare open it up.

    That's why I drive a 20 year-old BMW. RWD as it should be, Limited Slip Differential, and no airbags, traction control, and creepy magic arms to hand me my seatbelt.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    I would not find the M intolerable for a commuter as I do have a bent for firm suspension/performance. My wife finds the ride in the xi quite intolerable so, as you say, it's a matter of preference. If I had an M, I would always drive it weather permitting but since this is my first 3'er, I decided on the all-weather, mini-van-weighted xi.

    It's still the best and balanced handling in any car I've driven, including the '06 300C SRT8 I test drove and the standard i they lent me while the x'er was in service for 1,000 miles.

    I would love to become road-course literate but I would rather have a dedicated corner carver such as the M as a tool to get the most out of the experience. Besides, the rft's are a downgrade for true performance driving off-street.

    Regards,
    OW
  • I got my 07 328i a few weeks back and a had a few questions for anyone with a similar car.

    - Does it come with the alarm system in it or is that an extra accessory from the dealer?
    - The manual has a section of TPM (Tire Pressure Monitor) and FTM (Flat Tire Monitor) via iDrive. All i see is FTM and not TPM. Anyone else have this?
    - The manual also has a First-Aid Kit and Warning triangle in the trunk. I dont have it in mine.

    I just want to make sure I dont have anything missing that I was supposed to have got.

    Thanks!
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    Your club sport doesn't look anything like this local club member's creation, does it?

    Not hardly, though I have heard about that car. What a beast. I do think I would have used an S62 had I wanted a V8. Racing Dynamics even built a V12 ti in the late nineties. I seriously considered fitting a S14 but a fellow ti Register member tried it and simply couldnt make it work(crossmember problems IIRC). Sooner or later I'm going to buy a used M42 engine and it have rebuilt into something like one of these bad boys. A 0-60 time of 6.5s and a 1/4 mile ET of 14.5 @ 98 mph is plenty strong for a NA 2.1 liter engine. And, like your M3, my ti is lacks the Bavarian nannies that interfere with the driving experience.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    The manual also has a First-Aid Kit and Warning triangle in the trunk. I dont have it in mine.

    They only come on ED cars, and will only reach the States if you hand carry them in your luggage as the First-Aid kit is non-U.S. compliant.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,397
    Alarm system is a dealer installed option.

    Regards,
    OW
This discussion has been closed.