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Toyota Avalon Limited vs Lexus ES 350

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Comments

  • zekeman1zekeman1 Member Posts: 422
    Had the Avalon now the 350 - both different cars. Avalon is way more comfortable and quieter in comparison but 350 has nicer touches/technology & higher maintenance expenses. Having to have premium fuel in 350 is BS - have the 350 and Infiniti G35x and use regular on both. Very slightly better mileage w/the premium (2 mpg better) but I still use regular. Some "purists" who HAVE to follow the book go with the premium only - their choice, as it is yours.
    Z
  • cdreiercdreier Member Posts: 9
    I'm wondering about the '08 Avalon Limited vs. the 08 ES 350. I know it might be like comparing the proverbial apples to oranges, but with the new-year changes, are there any thoughts about something different that might turn a decision 'around'? Thanks.
  • pkumar1981pkumar1981 Member Posts: 15
    You can go cheap on the gas and give the extra 2mpg up by switching to regular but if you do the math you will see it comes out to be about the same $$$ when you use premium. I have a daily commute of 110 miles. I use my ES350 primarily on the highway and I only use Premium fuel. I pay about $2.90 per gallon prem+ gas in NJ. Regular gas is about $2.70. with the .20 cent difference I am only saving about $3.00 per fill up (I fill up when the Empty light turns on, reg gas savings = .20 cents per gallon X 15 gallons approx. = $3.00 saved per fillup) So now by switching to regular you save $3.00 and you get 2mpg less.

    By using Premium you get 2mpg more ... 2mpg more X 15gallons = 30 miles you get extra per fill up ... thats roughly equal to one gallon of gas which costs me $2.90.

    So you see... switching to regular gas will intially be cheaper, but statistically it doesnt make sense. I rather not go cheapo and use premium gas for a premium car and get the extra horsepower... plus have the engine + fuel filter in good & clean condition....
  • jiaminjiamin Member Posts: 556
    "Avalon is way more comfortable and quieter in comparison but 350..."

    Is Avalon quieter than ES350? In quietness, Consumer Guide gives 7 points to Avalon, 8 points to ES350. I only drove a loaner 08 ES350 but never touched Avalon.
  • zekeman1zekeman1 Member Posts: 422
    As I said, two totally different cars; the Avalon "floats" whereas you feel the road more on the 350. Regardless of what CR says, I firmly believe (my wife, too) that the Avalon is quieter and a far more comfortable ride. Drive both and decide for yourself - you will ultimately wind up owning one or the other.
    Z
  • baglfbaglf Member Posts: 3
    I was going to buy an Avalon Limited and had one picked out. Then saw this string and decided to look at Lexus ES. Lexus is far superior. More luxury and I suspect better resale value. Avalon may be a little better on bumpy roads, but not much. Really only thing Avalon wins is bigger back seat area, but I don't need that. Price for each is almost identical if similarly equipped. Lexus wins hands down,
  • yankeryanker Member Posts: 156
    I am amazed. We have a 2000 avalon and nothing but a gas l;line sensor has gone wrong. We did have a problem with the radio but it was self inflicted we got two discs stuck. Ironically my wife has been hit four times in this car and with minor damage. we have 108,000 and no problems. The heating system is quirky. Again I am amazed at the problems you have had, Get something else
  • mgrey1104mgrey1104 Member Posts: 2
    I purchased a 2008 Limited Avalon for my wife on her birthday two weeks ago. Drove it off the showroom floor with 15 miles on it. One week later, an elderly man who had fallen asleep was heading straight at me (my wife in the passenger seat and 3 kids in the back).

    My only choice was to take it into the ditch...we were hit starting in the drivers door and continued to crush the back door and rip off the back wheel and bumper. When he hit us, the Avalon rolled on its side and ended up falling back in the correct position.

    The side curtain airbags deployed and I have to tell you, we all walked away...a little stiff, but still able to tell this story.

    I get to purchase another car now that the insurance company will be paying for the the totaled one...and am now considering the ES350....Any thoughts?
  • nimiminimimi Member Posts: 249
    What would cause you to no longer want the car that met your requirements after a two week period during which it proved its worthiness as a safe, roomy and comfortable car?
  • zekeman1zekeman1 Member Posts: 422
    :confuse: :confuse: I totally agree with nimimi! Why on earth would you want to go with an "unknown", especially when the "known" performed & saved your lives???
    Z
  • mgrey1104mgrey1104 Member Posts: 2
    I am just considering the Lexus because it appears to be a step up once you get in it and drive it. I was very impressed with the Nav. system as well as the detail the ES350 had. I actually test drove one tonight...very nice...but the back seat is much smaller than the Avalon. Also, MSRP is more...

    I've been shopping around...looking for the best price...the "totaled" Avalon was purchased for $37,346 all in after taxes and tags. Not sure if that was a good deal or not...
  • baglfbaglf Member Posts: 3
    From a safety standpoint they are probably about the same. Vision out back of Lexus is a little poor. Back seat is definitely smaller. Comparably equipped the cost of Avalon and Lexus ES 350 are almost identical. I have had the Lexus for about a month. Drove in my friends Avalon last weekend. Lexus is just more luxury--doors close better, seats are more comfortable, also with more fun things. I also like the looks and my mother is more impressed with the Lexus.
  • billeveebillevee Member Posts: 15
    I am 59 years old and drive an 08 ES. I love it.

    Get over the age perception gig.

    Drive what you want!!!!!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    I have a '96 ES, and I wanted to get a new one, but two problems: First, sunroof is now mandatory (my '96 doesn't have one), limits drivers/passengers headroom. Second, new design creates very low entrance to rear seat - style over function. I use my car to carry 4 adults. With the Avalon, I'll get more room, same performance, and slightly less style. I'm OK with that.
  • kenb757kenb757 Member Posts: 149
    To Lexus:

    Hello,

    I am wondering if it's necessary to use premium fuel in the new ES 350. It seems the Toyota Avalon has a slightly derated (several fewer horsepower) version of the same engine and only requires regular unleaded fuel. Thank you.

    From Lexus:

    Thank you for contacting Lexus Customer Satisfaction. We are dedicated to providing superior service.

    The Lexus ES 350 requires select premium unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 or higher for optimum engine performance. However, if such premium type cannot be obtained, you may temporarily use unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating as low as 87. Use of unleaded fuel with an octane number or rating lower than stated above will cause persistent heavy knocking. If severe, this will lead to engine damage.

    If you require further assistance, please respond to this e-mail, or contact Lexus Customer Satisfaction at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 5:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., or Saturday, 7:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

    I will NOT support oil company profits by buying a car that requires premium fuel. I figured that regular fuel is why the Avalon engine is derated by a few horsepower when compared with the ES 350 and the ECM takes care of any discrepancies to prevent knock. Anyone know of any other differences between the engines as installed in the Avalon vs. the ES 350? :confuse:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    From the specifications I find, both engines share the same bore, stroke, and compression ratio, so it would seem that the Lexus' higher power rating comes with using premium, not any basic engine difference.
  • kenb757kenb757 Member Posts: 149
    Thank you. If this is the case, and the valve timing is programmed by the ECM based on the knock sensor, then you'll only lose a few horsepower by using regular unleaded fuel. I would prefer to buy the ES 350 not because I think the car is superior to the Avalon (in fact, I like the larger car), but because of the longer warranty and up-level dealer service I expect to receive by a Lexus dealership.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    I've been using regular in my '96 ES300, which recommended premium, with no knocking, etc. Same mileage, too, as far as I can tell. If anyone else knows of a real difference between the two current engines, let us know!

    p.s. - my only beef with the local Lexus service is their push to do unneeded (per the manual) services.
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    I agree, test drove both cars myself... the avy is in my opinion quieter than the Lexus... not to mention roomier and more comfort.. Lexus had it's advantages, but not nearly enough to sway me to buy it... there's an avy parked in my garage tonight..

    Roland
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    agree with you on the 'doublespeak' - have 2 cars an 03 Altima 3.5 and an 05 Avalon both manuals say specifically 'use premium (91+) for maximum performance' and both run quite well on 87 octane with no discernable loss in power or FE. Don't know for a fact if the ECM is different between the ES and Avalon or if Lexus finds some way NOT to honor some warranties because of the regular - but the 30-40 cents/gallon sure would influence my decision as well.
  • jpm1908jpm1908 Member Posts: 17
    I test drove both cars and the Avalon felt far more spacious. I also preferred the dashboard layout of the Avalon to the ES 350. The only edge I would give to the ES 350 is for exterior design. 0% financing for 36 months is just a fantastic deal when coupled with a highly competitive out the door price, which I think I got. $34,870 for the Limited with power seat, stability control and mats. I did not want the Avalon's Navigation system. So far so good. Only mild complaint is that the gas tank could be larger. I'm getting around 20mpg overall. Was hoping for a bit better.
  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    Well most of the posts here mentioned that avalon is more comfortable better rear seats but i think that avalon has a much better ground clearance if i am not wrong the ES feels that its much closer to the ground
  • dubldocdubldoc Member Posts: 15
    I agree, the Av has a larger back seat, but if that matters, why give up the crown vic or the minvan? Personally, I like the fact that the Lexus is built in Japan and has a better warranty, better Dealer service, and a better resale value... if for nothing else, being rated #1 by JD Powers for 12 yrs in a row does tend to make a difference on trade in day... I drive my 350 pretty hard, and I now have 24K miles on it with an avg of 25.7 mpg since the day I bought it. Not too shabby...
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    why give up the crown vic

    The Avalon's back seat is actually larger than a CV.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • popsavalonpopsavalon Member Posts: 231
    J, mileage of "around 20" for the Avalon is extremely low. I get 23-25 mostly around town, and 29-30 on road trips of any length.

    On a controlled speed parkway where the max. speed was 60, I actually got 32 mpg for a 150 mile trip. I think these mileages are excellent for a car of this size and regular fuel.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    Yes, I never understand the 'if you want a decent rear seat, get a tank' line of reasoning. I just want a good car that I'm happy to put full size adults in the rear seat. The ES can't do that, the Avalon can.
  • emperorjvlemperorjvl Member Posts: 5
    I got a 2008 Avalon Limited with VSC, DLCC and power passenger seat for $34,800 OTD, 0% for 3 years. Though I never drove the ES350, just by comparison I knew I liked the Avi better - I love the ultra clean "hiding" interior, room, exterior design. I'm really happy with it. Oh, I'm 28 and I've gotten nothing but compliments on the car, not that I really care what people think about it. I am, however, still surprised at how big it REALLY is, both exterior and interior - still transitioning from my old '99 Corolla. :P
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    Emperojvl..

    Congrats on the new Avy... I hope you enjoy yours as much as I have enjoyed my 07 avy.. Like you, I was also impressed with the overall size of the avalon. I mean I went from a Sedan Deville to the toyota...and truthfully I'm as comfortable in the avy as I was in the caddy, and for about 15 grand less.... I'm a big boy, not necessarily all that tall, but a big boy none the less ( we'll just leave that alone for now ) but the point is I never thought I would be comfortable in a "toyota"...was actually sitting down at the local Buick dealership about to sign the papers on a new lucerne when my wife convinced to at least go look at the avy before I bought the buick.. truth be told, I went down there pretty much just to shut her up... wow was I wrong.... I was immediately taken back as to how roomy the avy was.. and even more impressive to me was the power the car has. 268 hp... my 8 cyl. caddy with the northstar engine in it only cranked out 275 and weighed considerably more...yep, think the avy is a very good blend of comfort, style and fuel efficency for the money..

    Roland.
  • ronawineronawine Member Posts: 1
    Why do we compare the ES to an Avalon Limited? They are in separate classes. The Avalon is much closer to the Lexus LS. The LS has about 4 inches more wheelbase. The length overall is the same. The interior cubic footage is the same. The standard equipment advantage goes to the Avalon Limited. When I purchased my Avalon in 05 I checked out the Lexus. While being a beautiful car I found nothing worth the $25000 difference. I have never regretted my decision. Especially comparing the V6 to The V8 and front wheel drive to rear wheel drive here in snow country!!
  • yankeryanker Member Posts: 156
    Oy\ur 2000 Avalon with 118000 made to Florida from Western Nrew york on two and i/2 tankfuls of gas and overall ran for 3000 miles at 31 mpg for the third time
  • gaffgaff Member Posts: 3
    I purchased a 2008 Lexus ES350 about the first week in August 2008. I have 1073 miles on it. I am taking in on 9/17/2008 for a 1000 mile check-up. I am not happy with the drivers seat. I cannot get a comfortable position. I have tried everything. I can't drive 10 miles without my foot falling alseep. I am looking to trade for an Avalon. How much of a loss do you think I will take? All comments and suggestions are welcome.
  • gaffgaff Member Posts: 3
    I purchased a 2008 ES350 in August. I cannot find a comfortable drivers position. I have tried everything. I can go 10 miles with my leg falling asleep. I am thinking of trading for an Avalon. How much of a beating will I take? Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    Yes, you'll take a beating, depends on how much you paid. You should rent an Avalon to make very sure it works for you.
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    gaff... as someone else told you, you will take a hit with a trade in... but mind you that would be the case regardless of whether or not you were going to the Avalon or "any" other car. Remember that regardless of what you are driving, you lose approx. 5K in value the "minute" you drive the car off the lot. As for going to the Avalon, I have an 07 XLS and so far love it. I actually looked into "trading up" to the ES 350 about a year after I got my Avy, but after test driving the lexus I couldn't justify the difference in price. Don't get me wrong, I like the body style of the 350, it's a beautiful car and the 350 does have some "nicer" immenities, but not nice enough to justify the price difference. Also, like you, I was not comfortable with the ES drivers seat, not to mention I actually felt like there was more room in the Avalon. Engine wise I'm pretty sure they are the exact same power plant, so you won't be dissappointed there if you do make the switch.
    Either way you'll be driving one nice ride.

    Roland
  • jpm1908jpm1908 Member Posts: 17
    I test drove both cars in early 08 and wound up purchasing an Avalon Limited. I much preferred the body style of the 350. The key thing for me was the roominess of the Avalon. I don't know what the cubic feet of space is for each of the cars and I don't really care; the Avalon feels much roomier. The only thing I don't like about my Avalon are the cheesy stereo and cup holder covers that don't open all of the way. In general, the dash panel could me made more aesthetically pleasing with a bit more faux wood and a bit less silver plastic. What a great car, though. The ride is fantastic and the car has LOTS of passing power.
  • kenb757kenb757 Member Posts: 149
    From the 2009 Lexus ES 350 Web site:

    "Ratings achieved using the required premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher. If premium fuel is not used, performance will decrease."

    Again, if premium fuel is required, then why include the second sentence? My take is: the Lexus has the same engine as the Avalon does and can run on regular unleaded with no problem.
  • kenb757kenb757 Member Posts: 149
    I believe Toyota dealers have a nice (faux?) wood kit that covers most of the unsightly silver plastic on the dash. You may want to ask about it.
  • jpm1908jpm1908 Member Posts: 17
    No kidding? I would certainly consider this. Is it dealer installed? Appreciate the tip!!

    Sincerely,

    Jamie
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    I think you're right, I seem to remember checking the two engines - same compression ratio, so it would seem to be the same octane requirements. My manual (ES300) says something similar about 'performance will decrease', but I haven't noticed, and the mileage is unchanged.

    Edit - just checked, engine dimensions/compression are the same, the Lexus listed 4 more hp, would be hard to notice!

    P.S. - the Avalon has about 107 cu. ft. interior space, the ES350 about 96.
  • kenb757kenb757 Member Posts: 149
    On the Toyota Web site, when building your Avalon, and under "Select Your Other Options," a "wood dash applique" is listed for $309. I'm almost positive it is dealer installed.
  • nimiminimimi Member Posts: 249
    That must be a dealer installed option and only available in certain areas as it does not display as an option in my zip code.
  • amauhryamauhry Member Posts: 55
    It is quite possible for two engines with the same compression ratio to have different octane requirements. Why? Engine Management System is the answer. Once the heat of combustion takes place and expands to the cylinder’s walls, how efficient this heat is managed depends on plumbing layout and the ECM and ECUs design/configuration to adjust the fuel mixture accordingly.

    Here’s another related case: One of my co-worker has an ’08 BMW X5, 4.8i. The compression ratio for this engine is 10.5:1. The Owner’s Manual states that “premium unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 91 is REQUIRED.” On the other hand, my ’08 Avi, with a compression ratio of 10.8:1, has no premium fuel requirements and runs extremely well on regular with no engine knocking whatsoever. By compression ratio alone, this does not make sense; my avy should be gulping premium too. Seems like the [non-permissible content removed] are beating the Germans in this area (jeje).

    Amaury
    '08 Limited
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    The Avalon and the ES350 use the exact same 2GR engine. Even the Avalon suggests premium for "enhanced performance". My guess would be that on the Lexus requiring premium fuel is not a big deal for most buyers where on the Toyota nameplate it may be. If you notice the Avalon is rated at 268 HP on reg and the Lexus is rated at 272 on premium.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,707
    See the comments above. Certainly, different engines can require different octane with the same compression ratio. Here, we're dealing with the same engine, with the added power coming from (probably) the added advance the knock sensor-controlled engine will allow with premium. The same power increase is also likely available to any 3.5 l car (Avalon, Camry, etc.).
  • amauhryamauhry Member Posts: 55
    My Owner’s Manual states that either regular or premium yields optimum engine performance (it is “either”; not just premium). Contrary to popular belief, the 268HP cap on the Avalon’s 2GR-FE won’t be increased by switching to premium fuel alone. That engine has to undergo serious mods in order to increase the horsepower output even by a few digets.

    Amaury
    '08 Limited
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    imageSee more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

    The 2GR-FE engine from the Avalon is the same thing as what is installed in the ES350 the slightly higher HP rating in the ES is from the requirement of premium fuel. Here is a shot of the owners manual from the '06 Avalo, showing my point: "for improved vehicle performance...."

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • bmlexusbmlexus Member Posts: 755
    Here’s another related case: One of my co-worker has an ’08 BMW X5, 4.8i.

    How do you compare your co worker x5 with your avalon?

    X5 feels a lot more specially doesn't it?

    Of course you have to pay a price for that ;)
  • amauhryamauhry Member Posts: 55
    Anyone with a 2008 Owner’s Manual for the Avalon sold in the U.S. can check page 414; It says nothing different from what I stated earlier.
    ----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------

    One of the engines has a tweak that the other doesn’t. In very simple terms, horsepower depends on the thermal efficiency of the engine. Fuel type alone won’t increase this efficiency.

    Amaury
    '08 Limited
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    A 2GR - FE is a the same no matter what they put it into. They share all the same specs. Even on the spec sheet for the ES350 it reads:

    "Ratings achieved using the required premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher. If premium fuel is not used, performance will decrease"

    What does that tell you? Do you really think Toyota would tweak this engine for a lousy 4 HP? The "tweaked" version of this engine is the 2GR-FSE which is direct injected and used in the IS/GS and makes a little over 300HP.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • hanscuahanscua Member Posts: 3
    I'm planning to buy or lease a Toyota Avalon Limited in the very future, which would feel luxury like the Lexus ES 350. The Lexus ES 350 has a power tilt and telescopic steering column and the Toyota Avalon does not have a power tilt and telescopic steering column. Before I buy or lease a Toyota Avalon Limited in the very future, I'm requesting the Toyota Avalon Limited to offer a power tilt and telescopic steering column for the late availability 2009 model year available at Toyota dealers by October, November, or December of this year 2008 so I can buy or lease a 2009 Toyota Avalon Limited with a power tilt and telescopic steering column and feel luxury like the Lexus ES 350 rather than having the 2009 Toyota Avalon Limited still offer a manual tilt and telescopic steering column. If the 2009 Toyota Avalon Limited comes with rain-sensing variable intermittent windshield wipers, heated and ventilated front seats, power rear sunshade, wood grain style leather wrapped steering wheel and shift knob, wood grain style interior, perforated leather seats, steering wheel mounted audio and climate controls, vehicle stability control with traction control and brake assist, 2-way driver's side memory systems, 8-way power driver's seat with power lumbar support, optitron meters with tachometer, speedometer, coolant temperature gauge, fuel gauge, and digital odometer with twin trip meters, smart key system with push button start, JBL synthesis AM/FM stereo with 6-disc in dash changer with hands free phone via bluetooth, optional dynamic laser cruise control, optional 8-way power passenger seat with power lumbar support, power windows with driver and passenger auto-touch up/down, power door locks with anti lockout feature, power moonroof, chrome outside door handles, etc., then the 2009 Toyota Avalon Limited should come with power tilt and telescopic steering column rather than a manual tilt and telescopic steering column.
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