Traffic Laws & Enforcement Tactics

fintail · June 2012

If only bait worked so well when fishing, eh?

Indeed, just keep right, and you can embrace those arbitrary and undefendable limits as much as you want. But don't start playing self-appointed deputy traffic cop, or things can get out of hand.

It's nice that the slowpokes have finally irked enough living people that some revenue enforcers have dared to penalize those who obstruct traffic, too.

stever · July 2012

"Pasadena drivers can now avoid that gut-wrenching feeling of being caught in the flash of a red-light camera, wondering if they made it through the intersection in time.

City officials decided not to renew a contract with American Traffic Systems Inc. for the city's seven red-light cameras, citing a lack of enforcement from Los Angeles County courts, time wasted by Pasadena police officers and questions about the cameras' effectiveness in improving traffic safety.

Additionally, the program  while never expected to bring in a lot of money  is running at a $4,487 deficit, the Pasadena Sun reported."

Pasadena discontinues red-light camera program (LA Times)

Filed under "be careful what you wish for", the story notes that "In a month one officer issues as many traffic citations, including for red-light running, as do all of the cameras".

stickguy · July 2012

there are a couple towns near me in Jersey that have cameras, and recently had to pull the issuing on hold due to questions about not having followed the rules (mostly verifying the yellow timing, and in some cases, shortening it).

So today in the paper was an article about an enterprising lawyer already filing a class action lawsuit to have all the fines returned.

I am curious to see how big a fight the company that runs the cameras will put up, since they get what, 1/2 the revenue? And I have to imagine they are responsible for following the regulations.

but good luck to the towns getting that money back. Most likely, once again, the poor taxpayers will get hosed.

fintail · July 2012

If light timing was changed and/or lights shortened, the refunds should come from the crooked "private" company who is in on the graft, even if it means selling off confiscated executive assets to raise funds. These operations are businesses that need to be scrapped.

elias · July 2012

definitely leave the traffic enforcement to the peace officer traffic patrols.

around here, *any* other vehicle could be undercover traffic patrol (state police in "plain wrappers").
some local patrols are only to snag aggressive drivers - these patrols ignore speeders if their only infraction is going 30 mph above the 55 limit. they only detain drivers who they see violating the vehicle code 2 or 3 times within two miles, as that is the definition of aggressive driving here, or something very close to that.

FWIW:
I try to be as stealth as possible to avoid baiting the peace-officers, speed-magnets, LLCs, MLCs. When all the lanes are blocked by MLCs/LLCs/tailgators, I chillax or "idle" in the rightmost lane let the aggressive tailgators (and/or cops) deal with the MLCs & LLCs. The police are quit aggressive about tailgating when they want to get past. It is what it is - I always let anyone faster pass, as soon as it's safe for me to move right. Also I try to know and follow each state's vehicle code to the letter as much as reasonable, except for the absurd "55" on the highway of course...

Any advice on how to driver safer/better, and I am open to hearing it - such as how to best cooperate with the peace officer's enforcement techniques, stuff like this:
accelerate uphill to whatever speed you select, using the rightmost available lane to pass the MLCs and LLCs on the right, then slow to 9 mph over the posted limit just as you crest the hill .

Btw, slower is not safer. Minimum legal highway speed is 45 mph but it is quite dangerous to drive that slow on busy highways.

My favorites over the decades are the two instances of LLCs getting cited for failure to move right for driving TOO SLOW (80 in a 65!) in the left lane. The state cop then cited one of these guys for speeding as well as failure to move right, but told him he wouldn't have been detained at all if he had just moved right, no matter the 80 mph. Truly that is as shadenfreud-o-rific as anything. Hooray for the good guys.

I tend towards the lower of the prima-facie/reasonable safe speed or the well-known-unwritten-limit on whatever highway.

Stay safe out there people. Lots of single-vehicle SUV rollover fatalities locally recently - without the SUVs leaving the pavement. (Usually the fatalities happen when the SUV goes *off pavement* and rolls.)

elias · July 2012

it's got nothing to do with traffic enforcement except for the proposed technology/legislative solution listed below, and as a reminder to leave enforcement to the pros, keep right, and be careful out there.

one of the recent accidents on local TV showed a full size suv which had rolled, but today's report said it was a pickup truck. the occupants were not wearing seatbelts and were ejected. the trigger for the crash was a blown tire...

nothing to do with traffic enforcement until the day when a technology is deployed to detect and cite drivers with bald/old/defective tires, similar to the smog-check roadside sensors that can detect/photograph-plates of smoky cars that drive by.

http://www.wickedlocal.com/canton/topstories/x1062474082/Route-24-crash-victim-g- ives-birth#axzz20jXMB1ci

fintail · July 2012

I think "peace officer" might be a little too generous, when the reality is a lot of their work is revenue-focused. They are tax collectors. Focus is on aggressive driving, but not the conditions that cause it. You don't see such driving everywhere.

Some of those speed variation problems can be solved with one thing - cruise control. Most cars made in the past 25 years have it. But so few use it, especially in the second world south where it is probably seen as some kind of pinko commie socialist liberal conspiracy.

I know the local state patrol (awesome at assisting with post-crash damage control and traffic guidance, pretty ineffectual at actual speed related problems/issues) has started going after LLCs - as it is a disease here and I think the volume of complaints reached a threshold. Visitors to the area laugh their heads off at the self-appointed traffic deputies.

Keep right. As Germans, who have better moving traffic than any other developed nation, would say: "rechtsfahren".

andres3 · July 2012

I wish CA CHP officers would go after LLC's. Never seen it enforced in my driving lifetime.

UPDATE: On my La Mesa Traffic speeding case. I paid the fine/bail amount in advance so I could send in my trial by declaration/mail. I sent it in about a month ago, and they told me they'd gladly earn interest on my money for about 3 to 4 months before a decision/judgement would be made (it used to take 3 to 4 weeks, not months!).

The City Attorney and La Mesa PD responded (amazingly, in full) to my discovery requests. I guess my nasty letter to the San Diego DA's office pre-empting their ridiculously wrong denial of discovery based on their lack of involvement on infraction cases. The law is clear, they are responsible to provide discovery; despite attempts to avoid providing it. SO i pre-empted their excuses and 2 of the 3 city organizations responded to the request with every piece of required information and documentation.

As to my trial by mail/declaration, I stated that in the event the court should find me not guilty, they can refund the bail amount in full to me and provided the address.

To add a dig and take a pound of flesh from them, I added "In the event the court finds me guilty, I request a Trial de Novo with the officer present."

Telling a judge you want to appeal his decision and have a real new trial before he even makes a judgement on the trial by mail is probably bad practice, but it might persuade them to not "mess with me!"

And if it makes him reach a guilty verdict more quickly, that's fine, I don't have much faith they will come to the correct decision by mail anyway.

I do have faith the officer won't show up at the real trial since it's at the county seat and La Mesa PD typically (99.99%) goes to the East County Courthouse.

elias · July 2012

best wishes with your case, A-3 ....
yesterday i got bagged by revenue-generator-MA-state-cop with all the stereotypical MA state cop attitude - different than every other state's police I've been detained by. 80 in a 65, as usual.
He was using the 'hide in bridge shadow at noontime/bright-sun' trick, and tagging people with laser. i was in the right lane going with flow of traffic, maybe sloooowly passing the 75 mph flow in the empty right lane. V1 was on but speaker was off. The cop was giddy about being so observant to notice my V1 remote display and give me shyte about it and how it can't work to prevent a laser ticket (it actually can if the laser is not operated perfectly.) $150 ticket. I'll be paying it - no time to fight it - about to start a new job... It's been years since my last citation so I will retain my safe-driver-insurance-discount that I've had for decades... :}

fintail · July 2012

At least you didn't get any kind of "safety/how dare you speed" kind of lecture.

elias · July 2012

oh, he lectured me plenty with the mandatory attitude, to show how swift he was to spot the remote-display for the V1 and that it was on - he wanted to know if it went off - i told him i didn't know because sound was turned off. he gloated that it can't prevent a laser ticket.
fact is, V1 can prevent a laser ticket, and has done so a couple times for me...
but it probably wouldn't have done so this time even if i had the sound turned up.

:shades: :shades: :shades:

stever · July 2012

They don't confiscate them anymore in Mass?

elias · July 2012

radar detectors have always been legal in MA as far as I recall.
in USA currently I think they are legal everywhere except VA.
years ago they were illegal in CT, then some radar units gave traffic cops cancer, and the legislature made the cop radar units illegal and the detectors legal. the CT cops use laser & pacing now, in my experience. also once when I drove from MA to CA, a CT trooper kindly used this technique:
'drove next to me and matched my speed and sat there minutes until i finally dared to look over, then gave me the hand-moving-downwards slow-down signal, and hammered it past me at 100. :shades: :shades: :shades:

stever · July 2012

Ah, thanks, yeah, Virginia cops "may" confiscate them it appears. Ditto DC and on military bases. And most provinces and territories in Canada really frown on them.

Wiki

Note the Swiss position on them, and now think about "radar" apps coming to your smartphone or GPS. Going to be hard to slow that wave down.

fintail · July 2012

I wonder if speed enforcement had more to do with safety than revenue, if detectors would be an issue. At least the overpaid revenue enforcer only bawled about the detector not working for laser rather than lecturing about danger.

The Swiss legislators who drafted that rule should be given the same treatment as the defendants at Nuremberg. Seriously.

elias · July 2012

at one point on recent drive boston->philly there were 2 folks on NJ tpk going a reasonable speed maybe 75 or 80, maybe more. there was minimal traffic so they easily went passed me using the open left lane. but the driver in front would not move to the middle or right. So the 2nd car was tailgating - passing on the right is illegal in NJ...
At that moment a trooper was on the side, radaring, saw the speed all 3 of us were travelling, with me hanging-back/going-slower, and the 2 other drivers "glued" to each other.
He could have detained any of the 3 drivers, but selected the one that was tailgating...
I was driving with big enough space that I never let him get behind me, as soon as I saw he was fishtailing his way onto the road, I further slowed moved to left lane to give him maximum space to get onto the road - then I moved to right lane behind him as he pulled over the tailgator on the left shoulder.

imidazol97 · July 2012

>with big enough space that I never let him get behind me

It's always fun to see someone else get pursued and a ticket especially when they deserve it.

I get to see speeders get stopped frequently in our small city who think they can drive as they do in some other parts of the greater Dayton area and I see people get stopped by state police on I-70 going to Columbus. I most cases they were speeding in my judgement enough that they deserved the stop, ticket or warning. Many are out-of-staters who think they drive as they did in states with 70 mph limits and bong the 80+ mark without results. Our limit is 65 and that's fine.

andres3 · July 2012

The cop was giddy about being so observant to notice my V1 remote display and give me shyte about it and how it can't work to prevent a laser ticket (it actually can if the laser is not operated perfectly.) $150 ticket.

The CHP particularly loves commenting on and rubbing it in when they notice the radar detector on my windshield. Every single one I've run into has always snarled and snickered a comment or two about them "not working." Though the fact is, it works all the time on CHP radar equipped vehicles; just fine. The only times I've been pulled over for speeding since getting my radar by the CHP has been when they snuck up behind me and didn't use their radar! I felt strongly I should have talked back smartly, and quickly said "it would work if you would dare use and turn on your radar!"

He caught me when I let my guard down on the last leg (the last 40 minutes) of a 3+ hour drive home. I was in a sort of cruise "auto pilot" driving mode, and one of the things that goes in that lazy/tired mode and gets compromised a bit is an intense lookout for cops. I guess I should compromise my safe driving and keep the intensity focused on the cops instead of driving safely??? :mad:

:sick:

andres3 · July 2012

He could have detained any of the 3 drivers, but selected the one that was tailgating...

Based on my observation and experience, I'd say it's almost always the person in back that gets selected and pulled over and ticketed.

This is due to the following factors:

1) Most all cops are extremely lazy.
2) They recognize they are revenue enforcers and the safety angle is cow manure, and therefore, don't give a damn.
3) Its easier to catch up to and pull over the trailing vehicle.
4) Exception: I have heard stories where if the trailing car pulls over before being directly asked to (with lights on directly behind them), they might go after the guy that acts oblivious or ignores the fact they got caught. This could happen if they are travelling the opposite direction and pull a stunt u-turn through the highways center median (you know your caught; just pull over early; you might just get off and they'll chase those that ignore him).

Based on this, I try to make sure if there's a line of speeding cars, I'm either in the middle or up front. I never want to trail, even if it means speeding 20 over instead of 10 over. The best position is blending in the middle to avoid tickets (of course for safety, being up front and all alone is best)

robr2 · July 2012

yesterday i got bagged by revenue-generator-MA-state-cop with all the stereotypical MA state cop attitude - different than every other state's police I've been detained by. 80 in a 65, as usual.

Well if you drive in MA regularly like I do, you should know that 10-12 over on the highway is acceptable as long as traffic isn't congested. Anything over that or weaving in and out of slower traffic and you stand the chance of getting nailed. I've learned to stay in the second or third lane at 10 over and just cruise along.

elias · August 2012

ya, Rob, I "camp" in the right lane as required by statute, whenever its reasonable and allows room for entering traffic.
Most MA drivers ignore the "keep right" law - and the state police do not enforce keep-right except veeery rarely.

I've probably driven 600k miles in MA over almost 4 decades.
I generally agree re "'10 to 12 over" on the highway is the real limit, as imposed by state police.
Also generally, those numbers double during rush-hour and are halved when the road is at its most empty. Yes. 25 over the limit is routinely allowed during rush hour, but 5 miles over the limit may get you tagged if the road is empty.
(I was detained/written-warned for 60 in a 55 once, because the road was wet... from 2 lanes away i dared to pass the state trooper who was doing 50 on his apparently-bald tires. )

robr2 · August 2012

Most MA drivers ignore the "keep right" law - and the state police do not enforce keep-right except veeery rarely.

AFAIK, MA doesn't have a keep right law.

stever · August 2012

Well, a driver's manual isn't "the law" but the one for Mass says:

On roadways with two or more lanes in your travel direction, use the right lane for driving unless...

You are passing another vehicle.

You are making a left turn.

The right lane is blocked.

berri · August 2012

I'll bet you the fine is smaller for improper left lane usage than speeding. Law enforcement has become a revenue game because of the poor finances at each level of government. Don't need algebra to see where the officer is going to be motivated.

hammerhead · August 2012

In Washington State:
RCW 46.61.100.2:"Failure to drive in right hand lane": $124.
RCW 46.61.400 et al: Speeding: starts at $93, goes as high as $411, doubled in construction zones, non-reducible in school zones.

The one I like is failure to yield to emergency vehicle. $1062.

robr2 · August 2012

Ok I was wrong. Massachusetts does have a keep right law but I've never heard of it being enforced.

If the Staties really wanted to generate revenue, all they would have to do is pull over every car in the state and write them a ticket for failing to keep right because nobody here actually pays any attention to the Keep Right law. Heck nobody pays attention to yield or stop signs and yellow lights really do mean speed up.

andys120 · August 2012

I used to commute from NH to Boston on I-93 and I certainly agree that the police do not enforce any keep right laws but the drivers do. Anyone who camps on the left is going to have a constant stream of fast runners riding their bumpers and then blasting by on the right at the first opportunity.

It's really rather amazing, no matter how fast you go some one will pass you
(on the left in my case since I do know to keep right). I have never been stopped for speeding on the Mass portion of 93.

robr2 · August 2012

I'll agree. We Mas*holes deal with LLC's by blasting by them and give them a cold stare. In fact, the entire line passing them does the same thing.

I had a guy in a mid 80's Trans Am on 93N near Dascomb Rd. doing about 66 mph in the left hand lane at 2 PM. He was getting blown away by the line of cars he held up. He finally moved over.

andres3 · August 2012

My favorite type of LLC is the one that will race you from 55 or 65 or whatever LLCing speed he's doing in the left lane, and when you switch to the right, as soon as your front end starts to reach their back end as your start your pass on the right, they speed up and race you to the finish line.

I've had drivers go from 65 to 100 MPH doing this technique, fortunately my car is equipped to hit 100 MPH and higher faster than most, and I can continue with my pass regardless of what they do.

fintail · August 2012

What is it with idiots who speed up while being passed? Should be a felony.

Doesn't happen often here, but I laugh when it does...60-100 in my car is quicker than many are willing to get from 0-30.

elias · August 2012

yeah, it's annoying but also funny when the LLCs speed up when you try to smoothly/safely pass on the right.

however in USA anyone is probably ill-advised to go faster than a true 99mph while passing. 100 mph is technically a criminal/reckless in every USA state, as far as I know.

Also consider that your speedo reads *at least* 3% fast, so when it reads 100 your true speed is probably no more than 95.

one of my cars has a dashboard/diagnostic mode where it will show the real speed in a tiny font on LCD screen, while the speedo-needle reads way faster.
this is how most modern car speedos are designed, as far as i understand.

see you in the right lane, everyone!

fintail · August 2012

Don't forget, it's only illegal if you get caught :shades:

My fintail has a laughably optimistic speedometer, always 10-15% fast...E55 is very accurate though, as it has a needle, digital readout, and GPS which I assume can measure it too.

andres3 · August 2012

100 mph is technically a criminal/reckless in every USA state, as far as I know.

In CA that might mean having a real honest trial with a jury present, and an appointed defendent attorney. I seriously doubt "revenue" enforcers want to make a criminal case out of "speeding."

They just want your money.

hammerhead · August 2012

100 mph, depending on the speed limit at the time, could easily be reckless drivving (still a misdemeanor) or reckless endangerment (in some places a felony). It IS a criminal case, sometimes, as it should be.

andres3 · August 2012

What I'm saying is the cop is likely to write you up for 99 MPH instead of 100 if you were going 10 or less over 100.

Officers also often will do you the supposed "favor" of writing a ticket for 15 over if you were 16-25 over because it'll be cheaper as a fine in CA if you aren't going more than 15 over the speed limit (another good reason all speed limits should be set to the 85th percentile since it is used as a basis of legal liability at times). They love to act like they are cutting you a break by writing you a ticket for less fine money by cutting a break of a couple MPH on the speed.

In reality, all they are doing is messing you up by raising your insurance premiums, making you waste your time to fight a ticket (or money to pay it), and just trying to butter you up into accepting the ticket without a fight.

You are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

A real criminal case or Felony offers the Defendant an opportunity to exercise his rights, and get a fair trial. Sure it raises the stakes, but I'd rather be found not guilty of murder than guilty of speeding even 5 MPH over, for example. By raising the stakes, at least you get a fair and just trial most likely (by having a lawyer appointed to you, and also by having a jury decide your fate rather than a sole disgruntled judge corrupted by the Police that write the tickets in the first place.

hammerhead · August 2012

And a misdemeanor may (and I'm pretty sure a felony would demand) get you cuffed & stuffed for a ride to the local municipal motor inn for a photography session and perhaps even a (ahem) physical exam. Meanwhile, your car gets impounded. Vehicles used in the commission of a felony are often seized. Kiss your ride good bye.

Is it really worth risking going through all that just to try to prove that you think you're smarter than the system, and to score points in your apparent grudge match with LEOs?

Go ahead with that. The rest of us will be enjoying the drive without you.

fintail · August 2012

All he needs is a FOP sticker or enough income, and he's home free. That's how the LEO community rolls. Funny how in my town I know where there is always a downhill speed trap, but I see Ferraris and Porsches speeding up my street at twice-thrice the limit every few days, and never see a parked cop.

Funny line from a motorcycling theory book I recently read:

"we need to remember that most of the traffic laws on the books were created well before Hitler commissioned the Volkswagen and are equally outdated" :shades:

elias · August 2012

absolutely good/correct points, A3, 100% .

Too bad for motorists that the traffic clerks/courts aren't open weekends, else more people would fight their tickets. That's often a factor that prevents me from fighting the tix like you.

More power to you & Perry Mason, again again again again again .

stever · August 2012

Night courts aren't uncommon - seems like there was even a TV show about one.

Even better, just do it by video from your house. Photo radar, video trial.

fintail · August 2012

A TV show nearly 30 years ago...have never known of a night court in person.

Luckily we haven't devolved to the limey Orwellian surveillance grid, and crony capitalist traffic cameras still aren't common here.

andres3 · August 2012

Are those night courts for actual trials, or just simply arraignments where you plead guilty, or not guilty?

I have a feeling it's just for arraignments. Either way, you can avoid the 2nd lost day (or more likely lost 2 or 3 hours), by pre-paying the fine/bail and pleading not guilty that way without showing up or fighting it by mail/declaration off the bat (my choice in my most recent mishap).

You only have to show up once in court if you pre-pay the treacherous bribe (oh... I mean bail).

stever · August 2012

Beats me - you're the court expert. :P

Makes sense to have them though. You are paying to heat and cool and maintain those big fancy buildings; may as well use them more than 8 hours a day.

andres3 · August 2012

I'll bet 90% on it just being for formalities like arraignment. Afterall, the officer's shift might not cover nights for him to show up at trial in a night court :P .

And what judge is going to want to work nights? Who wants to work nights? Those snobby moody grumpy old white men that are judges are going to want to work nights? I doubt it, not without extra compensation.

They will be extra grumpy and moody if they get forced to work nights; no thank you

andres3 · August 2012

That is the question.

La Mesa traffic court case is going to trial. Offerred chance to pay $55 and go to traffic violator's school and have the conviction held confidentially away from my Insurance company.

Not taking the bait!

I will request my real new trial next week, without waiving time, so it'll be within 45 days (once they get the letter).

Let's see if the La Mesa PD shows up at the County Seat (not their usual venue).

fintail · August 2012

Sounds like it is truly about safety and not revenue. Oh wait!

elias · August 2012

A3, great googly moogly, I would take that deal in a heartbeat and have agreed to things like that with town clerk(s) decades ago.
$55, no insurance notification, and such low $ .
sounds like they reduced it to the city/town ordinance violation rather than a state civil violation?
traffic violators school is much fun for me.
The in-person ones are way more fun than the online ones, but hey, I'll take what I can get. :}
Traffic school has gotta be fun for you too, just admit it, teacher's pet!

andres3 · August 2012

$55, no insurance notification, and such low $ .

Hhaha, that $55 fee is in ADDITION to, not in lieu of, the original fine/bail/punishment of $360!

So in order to send in my trial by mail, I have to pre-pay and post bail of $360. They want $55 MORE dollars :P Not such low $$$ on the line.

When this case gets dismissed... no insurance notification, I get my $360 refunded, and the $55 stays in my bank account.

mikefm58 · August 2012

Here in Orlando, I saw on the news that virtually ALL cases where there was a lawyer representing were thrown out. The guy they interviewed is making a killing, $100 a pop he charges, still cheaper than paying the fine.

fintail · August 2012

I'd rather throw my money at a bloodsucking ambulance chasing lawyer than at a crooked corrupt traffic court system, too.

andres3 · August 2012

$100 is a super bargain. That's a no-brainer. The NMA referred CA lawyer I contacted wanted $1,500 as a retainer to do a "bazooka" style defense as he put it.

Basically inundate the police agency and DA with so much paperwork they cry mercy and drop the case, or at least, fail to comply properly to all the requests and then you win that way.

Guess CA lawyers are more expensive.

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