Mazda3 2.3 vs. '07 VW Rabbit

aviboy97 · June 2007

There was no comparison, the Rabbit won hands down. For starters, the VW was MUCH quieter while driving. I felt like I could hear everything on the road in the Mazda, and I had to raise my voice to talk to my wife. The Rabbit also felt much better on the road, including some acceleration superiority over the Mazdajust test drove those two cars because I was on the fence.

Thats odd, in a recent test between the two, the Mazda won in every performance catagory, fuel economy, handling, breaking,0-60 and 1/4 mile. You name it, the Rabbit got beat. The only reason the Rabbit won was because of the "Gotta have it" factor. Which is totally subjective.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11873/2007-toyota-corolla-le-vs-2006-honda-civic-lx-vs-2007-hyundai-elantra-se-vs-2007-mazda-3s-touring-vs-2007-volkswagen-rabbit-vs-2007-nissan-sentra-20s.html

eldaino · June 2007

real world fuel economy actually only shows a very slight advantage in the mazda, surprising considering the vw's extra cylinder and bigger displacement.

the rabbit is a quieter more comfortable riding car, but it still has some sporting pretensions and its balanced perfectly in that sense. It does feel more solid on the road as well, at least when i compared the two on the highway.

looking at the spec sheet on the comparo you posted shows that while the mazda did excel in these fields, it is proven that rabbit was quieter and has a bigger top speed and better top gear acceleration than the 3. So they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

your car does not have to have the best 1/4 mile or 0-60 time to make it win ' hands down' in your book.

aviboy97 · June 2007

your car does not have to have the best 1/4 mile or 0-60 time to make it win ' hands down' in your book.

First, it's not my car :P Second, I was replying about how he said the Rabbit was a better performer. Actually, he said it was "superior", especialy in acceleration. I pointed out that a comparo was done that showed the Mazda won in those categories.

eldaino · June 2007

First, it's not my car Second, I was replying about how he said the Rabbit was a better performer. Actually, he said it was "superior", especialy in acceleration. I pointed out that a comparo was done that showed the Mazda won in those categories.

come on avi how old are you? obviously you knew what i meant; when i said 'your' car, i mean 'ones' car, not that YOU have a mazda 3.

He wasn't going on and on about the superior performance in the rabbit; he said he noticed 'some superiority in acceleration' and in acceleration only. even this could mean the generous feeling of torque and not so much 'its quicker to 60!'.

The other ways he felt the rabbit exceled were with regards to the feel on the road, and the quiet cabin.

aviboy97 · June 2007

come on avi how old are you?

I'm a rebel teenager who has nothing better to do with my day then play on the internet! :shades:

I'm just havin' fun with you, eldaino!!

eldaino · June 2007

I'm a rebel teenager who has nothing better to do with my day then play on the internet!

I'm just havin' fun with you, eldaino!!

i know i know, its so easy to get me started!

its cool bro.

gti1999 · July 2007

You should all keep in mind the inovation and technology in modern day cars is initiated in Germany not Japan. The Japaneese know how to duplicate. They are copy cats. I owned a Gti 2.5 V5 for Four and a half years and had over 125K miles on it. It still drove the same as the day I bought. I currently own a 2005 Tocoma Double cab that I bought in Nov 2004 here in Texas it is by far the worse car that I have ever owned, it only has 18500 miles, I still have two prolems since I bought it that Toyota dont have a fix for and dont even want to fix. I have even hired a lawyer now and as you all know this is a car that won the 2005 Truck of the year award. I personly think that these magazines are influenced by the money they get through ads.

With regards to the Mazda 3 its a great car, but it only hands sharper because it might not have all the stability control stuff thats on the Rabbit and thus feels sporter. The rabbit would be must safer though in slippery surface. Personly its hard to choose between them one has more quility and class and the other more reliability and less cost.

eldaino · July 2007

while i do agree that the germans seem to be the innovaters...the japanese are defintely the perfectioners.

but i have ENVER heard of a gti with a five cylinder. in fact, i wasn't even aware that vw offered a five cylinder in anything up until the recent jetta and rabbit. a vr6? yeah. but a vr5? never heard of it.

granted just how everyone says 'german cars are junk' i wouldn't base my opinion of ALL japanese cars soley on your experience.

with regards to the 3; the reason it handles bette is because it is more stiffly sprung than the rabbit: they both use a similar set up with regards to suspension, and while they are both fine handling vehicles one leans more towards a sportier ride, while one has a more luxurious comfortable ride.

in europe, the ford focus over there uses the same suspension setup as our north american mazda 3; and the golf and it are neck in neck for the title of best hatch. many european car mags/reviewers have commented on the suspension of each respective vehicle and have made a simliar comparison as i have...they both are nimble and feel essentially the same, but one has superior handling and one has a superior ride.

gti1999 · July 2007

The Gti V5 I had was in Kuwait I dont think it was sold in north america. The problem with my Tocoma is a universal problem with all the double cab 4X2, it was a vibration and a knocking noise as you come to a stop. The new 6speed Camry's have a transmission problem. The japaneese dont spend money on researching new technology the spent money on copying it. The nissan marano CVT trans is the technology that Audi came out.
If you were to go back to the very beginning of the Lexus you can see the similarity between their cars and Mercedes they even copied the general shape. Where I come from they use to call it the poor mans Mercedes.

aviboy97 · July 2007

I am going to respectfully disagree.

The Japanese are not strictly "copy cats", but, they are perfectionists. It is just their culture to be perfect. I do not think the Germans invented VV-T or hybrid technology, did they? Last I knew, the Japanese did.

With regards to the Mazda 3 its a great car, but it only hands sharper because it might not have all the stability control stuff thats on the Rabbit and thus feels sportier

The Mazda3 does have stability control (Mazda3 s). It handled better because it has a more aggressive suspension set up.

Personly its hard to choose between them one has more quility and class and the other more reliability and less cost.

The VW has definalty stepped it up, in regards to build quality. The older VW's were not that great.

backy · July 2007

Actually, Europeans and Americans pioneered VV-T technology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

And Europeans and Americans pioneered hybrid cars, also:

http://www.hybridcars.com/history/history-of-hybrid-vehicles.html

zante64 · July 2007

Lumping all cars manaufactured by the various companies within a givin nation seems pretty pointless. Let's face it... no company has a perfect batting avg. for all cars inall segments.

My wife and I have been dedicated VW fans. In fact at 170,000 miles - the '97 Jetta needed to be replaced. Naturally we went into the VW dealer all set to but another Jetta or Rabbit. But... during the various test-drives - my wife had become very discouraged. to quote her: "what did they do to this car? It's too big, to squishy, and flat out too boring!" She went so far as to compare it to her dad's 2006 Chevy Impala! We were kinda stuck. She doesn't like the Toyota, Nissan, and Honda products. BMW way out of our price range. We eventually found ourselves taking the 2007 Mazda 3 S for a test spin. As she put it: "it drives the way a Jetta is supposed to drive, FUN!"

Done deal. The Mazda has great road feel which inspires confidence. And the fit and finish is superior to the new Vdubs. Great value too! Who would've guessed that Mazda would take over the mantra of "Drivers Wanted."

bodble2 · July 2007

Zoom Zoom! :shades:

eldaino · August 2007

And the fit and finish is superior to the new Vdubs

on this site, much is a biased opinion.

but saying that any japanese interior in the jetta/rabbit pricerange is better than a current jetta or rabbit IS wrong.

honda makes a great interior, as does mazda. if anything their interiors are 'on par' or at least 'sportier' looking than a current vee dub.

But to say that its superior? nope. sorry pal. just not true.

a 97 jetta? i can see someone preferring the STYLING, as i have many buddies who do...but none of them rave about its superiority in driving over a newer jetta....actually, the mk3 generation was targeted for being the most dumbed down version of any sporiting vw....

your wife truly has a strange concept of what 'fun' is.

EVERY auto manufacturers cars have increased in weight...you think that the mazda protege weighed as much as your 3 does now?

i do agree that the jetta should have been what the 3 is now...but its still a great handler and its not worlds behind the 3. and the rabbit is EVEN BETTER, and only just behind the 3.

don't worry, vw still has plenty of drivers.

sharpedgeshurt · August 2007

I drove the rabbit and the 3 back to back. The Mazda is much more sporty across the board, but the Rabbit is subtle where the 3 is sporty. It was a hard decision for me to go with the rabbit, but I'm glad I made the choice I did. Rabbit has a little extra play on the gas pedal, and a little bit of center numbness on the steering wheel. On a review I wrote a few months ago, it depends on what you're looking for. I really enjoy my Rabbit, and it is a lot of fun to drive. I prefer something a little more subtle over the sporty-across-the-board feel of the Mazda 3.

zante64 · August 2007

I suppose the idea that a car goes wherever you point it with no perceptible complaints is her idea of fun. Come to think of it... it's mine too.

And yes of course, there is a huge subjective aspect to all this. Please keep in mind that we've been VW fans for a very long time. I grew up with them. (my earliest memories are sleeping in the small storage area behind the rear seats of our '66 bug as a kid) Also, We had never been fond of the various Japanese makes. (Mazda included).

It was a very difficult decision to NOT continue with VW. I will also say that it's very difficult to ignore the "rumors" of reliability problems when during the test-drive of two different brand new VW models from two seperate dealers - both had the "check engine" light on during the test drives.

My harshest words are borne in large part by my sad disappoinment with the direction of VW in the "affordable fun to drive" car segment. It seems that the "Drivers Wanted" by VW now are those drivers that want a car that handles like a pig being led to the slaughter - aimlessly going forward with no idea of what fate has waiting around the next corner.

bodble2 · August 2007

I think part of your disappointment with current VWs is the inevitable result of VW's decision to move "up-market" with their model lineup. When you get bigger, and cushier, you will lose some viscerality, if there is such a word. You can see that gradual transformation in the Honda Civic from generation to generation.

eldaino · August 2007

exactly.

what i was trying to say was that its unfair to single out vw with this, especially since most car makers are guilty of it, (moving upmarket, gaining weight on smaller vehicles, compacts that cost 20k) not just vw.

a pig to the slaughter? (boble this isn't to you)certainly you don't mean the handling, but the impending doom of bad reliability? if thats the case, you needn't fear, ESPECIALLY since the 97 jetta you owned was almost as famous as the mkIV generation for being problematic.

Did you test drive a rabbit by the way?

if you are reffering to the handling, there is simply no way that you could drive a mk3 jetta and think it handles better than the new mkV's. Unless ofcourse, if you were driving a gti vr6, but that only solves the problem of moving quickly, not handling. And for that, theres a new gli to handle that one.

zante64 · August 2007

First of all: I do apologize for disparaging those who choose to drive a new VW. The true target of my ire was VW itself. On a personal note to eldaino for future reference - it strikes a very condescending (and counterproductive) tone when you refer to a person as "pal" while also saying how wrong their opinion is.

Secondly: Our '97 Jetta had virtually no problems until we hit 150,000. Only real issue prior was a rattling heat-shield. So we never paid any attention to reliability rumors until it came time to buy a new one. We first dismissed the Check Engine light issue as a fluke. Not liking the "feel" of the new models (and yes, drove a Rabbit & a Jetta) we started doing lots (and lots) of research, which is when I found so many complaints and concerns about the reliability of virtually all VW models for nearly a decade running.

Finally - All cars may have gained some mass - but not all cars have been tuned to compensate for it equally. The current VW's seem to reflect a post Summer-of-Love philosophy of "just roll with it." :P

Doesn't it bother anyone else that VW has decided to move their "entry-level" cars upscale without a suitable replacement? And here's the bottom line - car choices can be hugely emotional - loyalty and all that comes into play. But how can anyone really be satisfied or even enthusiastic about a new offering which fails to surpass a competitor's offering that was first introduced several years prior?

quote from post #322
i do agree that the jetta should have been what the 3 is now...but its still a great handler and its not worlds behind the 3. and the rabbit is EVEN BETTER, and only just behind the 3

sharpedgeshurt · August 2007

(Sorry ahead of time for another really long post)
You bring up some good points Zante. Mazda has done well with its Mazda 3, and the two cars have always been considered direct competitors for the price, with the Mazda being slightly more expensive than the '07 Rabbit for similar features. The bottom of the rung 2 door Rabbit is a much better deal compared to entry level Mazda 3 Hatch, or Mazda 3 Sedan, or even a Honda Civic with so many standard features.All the Mazda 3 praise gets kind of murky sometimes having three different models, Sedan, Hatch, and Sport hatch all bearing the same name.

America has always been about conspicuous consumption, especially in Southern California. We enjoy some of the most expensive Gas prices, and a really good number of the vehicles I see on the road are SUVs, or large Chrysler 300's, and Chargers, and a lot of H2's. But, Zante is right, very popular entry level cars always seem to grow, with smaller vehicles replacing them. Toyota Corollas are the same size of older Camrys. Look at the new Scion XB compared to the old Econo-Box. Nissan Altima's are huge!

There's definitely much smaller entry level cars outside the United States. VW offers 2 smaller models than the Rabbit/Golf overseas. The Fox and the Polo. Mazda also has a Mazda2 but wont be released in the United States for a few years. If you search the net you can see the 07-08 model that shares a lot of design style with the Mazda 3 and looks much less European. (and a lot like a Yaris on steroids). Speaking of the Yaris, Toyota even has a vehicle smaller than the Yaris, The Aygo.
Its only a matter of time before more small efficient vehicles (with decent interiors) become more popular in the US once Gas prices continue to rise and all the hugenormous vehicles become less and less appealing even to the rich people.

Purchasing any car can be a risk, and I admit taking a bold risk with my '07 VW Rabbit given VW's track record. There is not a ton of info on the 07 Rabbit yet since it's the 1st year the US has gotten the MKV VW's, but it is a car that's been available overseas for a few years before it's been released here, and hopefully there is something to be said for the majority of the vehicle being manufactured in Wolfsburg Germany. Wolfsburg Germany is the final assembly point now also, compared to Mexico in the past. Unfortunately, the reliability of this vehicle is still a big "IF." Im not going to try an defend which vehicle is better: It all depends on what youre looking for. I love my car, and my only regret is how many miles I'll be putting on it before I get rid of it--already driving over 2,000 miles in the first month. Anyone who doesn't do their research before buying a car deserves what they get. I did my research, and was willing to take the risk. If it doesn't work out, at least I made an informed decision, and wont make the same mistake twice.

autonomous · August 2007

Zante64 and sharpedgeshurt: Interesting discussion.

Gas prices continue to rise. But America has always been about conspicuous consumption, especially in Southern California. We enjoy some of the most expensive Gas prices ...
Actually US prices are likely not high enough. Imagine if European (or even Canadian) prices were in place in the USA. How does $4.00 a US gallon sound? I'm not advocating higher prices, but they appear to be effective motivators for us.

I did my research, and was willing to take the risk. If it doesn't work out, at least I made an informed decision, and wont make the same mistake twice.
Agreed. We all need to do our homework and try to extract the facts out of the hype, trivia and mythology.

600kgolfgt · August 2007

In fact at 170,000 miles - the '97 Jetta needed to be replaced.

Hell, my 1997 Jetta is at 225,000 miles and still going strong - and doesn't burn a drop of oil to boot (the fact that I use synthetic oil has something to do with it).... :shades:

Good luck with your Mazda 3. Nice car, not my cup of tea (everybody and their brother seems to have one)...

gti1999 · August 2007

Mazda 929, Camaro, Mercedes 230E, Nissan Pathfinder, VW Gti, Silverado, and Tocoma. I have owned the above vehicles in that order all bought new. I have found out that although the german cars cost a little more to keep the driving quality of the vehicle does not decline with time as much as other makes. German vehicle dont rattle or squeak. Another thing that I notice is that japaneese cars dent very easy. There is more quality in German cars no doubt and I still believe that japaneese car makers are copy cats, actually great copy cats. They have not invented one new technology, all taken from the USA and European car makers. Take the Gti and the Mazda 3 and after 5 years and 100,000 miles. Drive both, then you will know the extra $2000 you paid for VW made a difference.

eldaino · August 2007

i never said your opinion was 'wrong', but that there are more facts that back up mine than yours.

sorry about being condescending, but this is the internet, try not to take to much to heart.

i still don't understand your issue with reliablity. My bunny's quality control is years better than any 97 jetta...and look how long yours lasted! look how long 600kgolfgt's lasted!

what i'm saying is that i just don't understand how reliability became such an issue...ESPECIALLY considering the fact you did reasearch which would have shown you that massive amounts of people with problems on mk3 and mkIV jettas/golfs...and the realative NON-EXISTANCE of complaints on the current rabbit/jetta. even the vw lemon websites have next to nothing on the newer models!

Again, i know that choosing a car is an emotional thing, i'm just referring to the reliabilty issues that swung your decision away from vw.

i don't see how vw can have a summer of love feel....they ride extraordinarily nice and absorb bumps well...but i think a lot of people (including you) mistake relaxed,smooth steering for a not so great and not so connected to the road car.

You said you and your wife did lots of research, surely you read many comparison tests from places like edmunds and car and driver pitting the 3 against the rabbit...did you notice how close the numbers were?

Again, i don't blame you for your decision, as the 3 IS a great car...heck, if i could get a 4 door hatchback(as my rabbit is a 2 door) the 3 would be a contender, given that you don't see as many of them as the sedan, and its more affordable than a gti.(which i would totally take over the 3 if i had the extra funds.)

To echo what sharpedgeshurt said, i dont that vw has done anything wrong with moving their entry level cars more upscale...

can you remember getting a mkIV golf for a starting price of less than 15k for a 2 door? I can't, because it never happened! How is the rabbit a lesser car than the golf it replaces? It totally decimates the previous golf with regards to handling, performance, interior quality, features AND price. What more does it need to do to beat the previous version?

VW is actually loosing money on the rabbit, because its such a well made vehicle with virtually no cutting corners on materials and standard features, that they are rolling out its replacement 2 years earlier than they had planned.

a 2 door german built hatchback for less than 15k with more standard anemities than ANY of the competion is offering? what model do they need right now to fill this void? it doesn't get better than that.

zante64 · August 2007

We just rung-up 1,000 miles on the Mazda. Granted that's not much to base any long-term projections, but I can say that it has not disappointed at all so far. Walking to the driveway it seems to scream "drive me!" louder and louder each day

On the upside off all this VW/Mazda "fun factor" discussion... I feel that when it comes time to replace the 3 - we certainly would check out VW again, but Mazda will warrant a "fair shot" as well. Choice is good!

One final note in regards to reliablility...
In the ultimate twist of irony - I also own a FIAT X-1/9 and absolutely LOVE driving that car! :shades:

eldaino · August 2007

In the ultimate twist of irony - I also own a FIAT X-1/9 and absolutely LOVE driving that car!

ah the irony.

sharpedgeshurt · August 2007

To echo Eldaino:
"i don't see how VW can have a summer of love feel....they ride extraordinarily nice and absorb bumps well...but i think a lot of people (including you) mistake relaxed, smooth steering for a not so great and not so connected to the road car."

I agree. I prefer a smooth ride over the in-your-face sportiness of the Mazda 3. It does "SCREAM" Drive me, where as, the Rabbit is a little more subtle, It sort of whispers sweet nothings in my ear when I park in the drive way, and I start to contemplate taking a quick spin around the block.

I feel like a broken record, The Rabbit is extremely smooth (where the Mazda is a little more in your face)-- but handles very well, which makes it great for all the long drives I take. I don't need the continued adrenaline rush and sports-tuned suspension to enjoy driving the vehicle. I'd like to compare a MAZDA 3 to a Rabbit going 90 mph on the 405 free way. . .

And since we're talking about Irony, In the "ultimate twist of Irony" on fuel consumption, the last tank of gas I drove on my Rabbit--I floored it quite a bit and used sports mode a lot and gunned it through lights, and managed to get my best fuel economy yet nearly eclipsing 25mpg.

aviboy97 · August 2007

My brother had a GTI. An 01 or 02 1.8T. The ride did degrade over time, as did the reliability. The interior trim was pealing, the finish on the interior door handle and controls was chipping away. The car ALWAYS smelled like melted crayons, from day 1. Fun car? Yes. The 2002 Mazda Protege ES that my other brother drives, with currently 80K on it was built better. No rattles, squeaks of any kind. Door dings? Yes. It does seem to dent rather easy. Unless he has a habit of parking to close to other cars.

zante64 · August 2007

90mph in the 3 sneaks-up on you way too easy!

sharpedgeshurt · August 2007

Okay fine. :shades:

irritatrix · September 2007

Well...after researching the Mazda 3 5-door S Touring and the Rabbit for 2 weeks, I was almost sure I would end up with the Mazda. I did not. I just drove home my 2008 4 dr. Rabbit in Sage Green and for now, feel sure I made the right choice.

My neighbor just bought his 2nd Passat in 4 years when the first one went off warranty, and purchased 2 used Jettas for his daughters to take to college, and has had virtually no problems with any of those 4 cars, so I decided that the reliability issue is probably overblown. My understanding is that it was worse with the 97-02 models, but has improved since then. More about this issue later...

Bottom line is, I liked both cars, but for different reasons, so neither one screamed BUY ME INSTEAD at me. They are both great cars, and I would probably have been fine with either one. The Mazda "seems" a little more fun to drive, but I think part of the reason for that is that it's not as solidly built, so you feel the speed more. It was surprisingly quiet, I thought, even on the highway. I didn't like the interior much - but then, I didn't like the interior on my '04 BMW 325 as much as the one in my '97 Passat. VW just does a nice job on the inside, IMO. One problem I had with the Mazda was I couldn't get the seat and steering wheel in a comfortable position, and I played with them for several minutes trying. I'm 5'8" and very slender, so it shouldn't be that hard for me to fit into a car. I did NOT like the Mazda's 3-star side crash rating - airbags or no. I have never had an accident in 37 years of driving, so I feel like I have more control over a frontal impact crash than a side impact crash where some bozo runs a light and creams me. So the 5-star side crash rating on the VW appealed to me, especially since I have a soon-to-be-driving teen. I was also very impressed with all the standard features on the VW - it's definitely loaded with nice little touches like the heated driver's seats, etc. that I had in my Beamer. The turning radius is amazingly tiny, and the thing will be a snap to park. I liked the instrumentation and climate and sound system controls better. Last selling point - the 4 year warranty. I know, I know, people who hate VWs will say "You're gonna need it." I think my neighbor's experience shows that's not necessarily true, and it also makes me think that VW is standing behind their product more, like Hyundai had to when they introduced their 10-year powertrain warranties to convince people their build quality was getting better.

The kicker was the price. I got the Rabbit (a 2008 4 dr automatic) for about $700 under Edmunds'TMV price, with very little haggling with the internet sales associate whom I'd corresponded with before I went to look at the car, and they gave me $1500 more for my Beamer than the Mazda dealer offered. I had decided since my Beamer had high mileage for its age and there were SO many for sale on cars.com in my area, I just didn't want to deal with the hassle of selling it myself, though I usually do. I followed the ads for the last month or so and they were just not moving. I think I might have gotten about $1000 more on my own, but the above-mentioned hassles weren't worth it to me. My impression is that the dealers really do deal better the last weekend of the month to try to meet their sales quotas. I feel like I got more for my trade in than I "should" have, given what I learned when researching it - the price on the Rabbit was never an issue, but they did bump the trade up quite a bit for me. :surprise:

Edmunds.com rocks - I could never have gotten a deal like I did without their helpful pricing tools, and using an internet sales person was great. The Mazda lady was great, too, I just preferred the bunny - but both dealers were a pleasure to work with, and I HATE buying new cars.

eldaino · October 2007

congrats and enjoy the bunny!

carfanatic007 · October 2007

I was the unfortunate owner of a 2001 VW GTI also. Purchased in August, 2001. By January the coil issue appeared, not once but 3 times. Driving the work you could feel the jumping and the lack of power. Had the coils replaced 3 times. Power windows quit working a few months later. Then the power locks. Then the DRL burned out after less then one year. This is too many problems for a car to have when it is less then ONE YEAR OLD. :lemon:

aviboy97 · October 2007

My brother had the same issue in his GTI. Ignition coil after ignition coil. He got to know VW serviece very well. More then he wanted to.

eldaino · October 2007

true, but it wasn't enough to deter you from buying a shiny new gli, which is without the coil issue if i'm not mistaken.

footballmum · November 2007

My husband & I own a 1999 Passat V6 with 184,000 miles on it & its still going strong! Our only problem with this vehicle is the emissions issue which has always plagued VW`s from what I have read with this issue it does cause the vehicle to stall. The Passat still feels solid next to other vehicles we have had with a lot less miles. You can get a lemon in anything sorry for your experience. I still want the 08 rabbit parked in my garage for the my commute to work.

creakid1 · November 2007

"Speaking of European, the British weekly, Autocar, rates (using 5 stars) the Ford Focus superior to the Mazda3 and Volvo S40.
- Focus hatch: 4.5 stars, "UK's favorite car returns bigger and better than ever"
- Volvo S40: 3 stars, "strangely less than the sum of its parts"
- Mazda3 hatch: 3 stars, "a good car, but not quite what it should have been"

Moral of the story: sometimes you have to leave home to feel appreciated."

Not really. Even though the MkII Focus is a slight improvement over the MkI in quietness, ride & handling, it's actually less fun to steer (even with the pure hydraulic pwr steering available on the 1.6 Mazda3/Focus II):
creakid1, "Ford Focus 2005 release date" #67, 25 Dec 2004 11:39 am
(see post #67)

I've seen these MkII overseas & didn't appreciate it being even wider than the 6-ft-wide Lexus LS430.

No wonder Top Gear was pessimistic about redesigning the MkI Focus into the MkII when the Golf/Rabbit V (which had the original Focus engineers designing its Control Blade multi-link rear) & the Mazda3 (which was derived from the MkII Focus platform but w/ the roll center lowered in the front & raised in the rear w/ different suspension firmness & plus a different steering rack) disappointed:
comp386, "2008 Ford Focus future vehicle" #47, 19 Jan 2007 9:14 am

We're the lucky ones that still have the old "Euro" Focus until '07. In fact, our reliable Mazda-engined 2.3 Focus ST, introduced in '05, used the identical suspension as the one in Europe's ST170 (except the lowered springs -- similar change to our pre-'08 GTI V).

I've driven the Mazda3 many times, either 2.0 or 2.3, stick or auto, 16"s or 17"s. Let me tell you what -- it's an hyperactive handler w/ the tail that won't stay put when making simulated abrupt lane change on the fwy. I can't imagine how dangerous it can be w/o stability control on slippery days. Besides, not having belt-driven hydraulic steering can only give you limited steering feel. The quick movement from the shock setting is also too nervous for comfort, but I believe that replace'em w/ Gabriel or std S40 shocks should cure the ride discomfort. I still don't like the door armrest being too low after raising the driver seat to just barely support my thighs.

The Rabbit suspension is too wallowy to be fun, as immediate change of direction can't be done. What's worse. The Golf IV already lacked steering feel at the limit (which wasn't the case back in gen I, II or III) & the Rabbit V's electric-motor steering assist only makes it even more artificial. You can firm up the suspension for a more responsive handling, but you can't hide the numb steering. At least it's still impressively compact for a comfy limo.

& the S40 is simply too numb to have fun, as complains from its hot-hatch version -- the C30 -- is everywhere now. I find its optional sport suspension too uncomfortable, while the std comfy suspension bottoms out the front travel too easily over deeper bumps, just like the early std Focus sold in America. Even the base model has a manual thigh-angle adjuster while the door armrest is so high (I love it!) that this perfect driving position even includes a full-time turn-signal stalk in at your finger tip!

The Focus ST was slightly softened after the '05 model year. & that's my favorite, as the firm ride no longer has the unnecessarily abrupt up-&-down motions, while the U.S.-tuned hydraulic steering that still lacked the confident-inspiring resistance back in '05 now (in this '07 I sampled) feels nicely firm above 45mph w/ strong centering action. The only real improvement it needs is sound insulation. Unlike its brothers -- the Mazda3/S40 sedans -- the 4-dr Focus has a decently wide rear-view visibility good for lane change & passing.

creakid1, "Ford Focus Sedan" #1939, 20 Oct 2007 10:17 pm
see post #1939 & 1940 & see how we agreed :P

carfanatic007 · November 2007

Actually, Consumer reports disagrees and they (VW GTI/Rabbit) are not recommended due to poor reliability. What a surprise. :P :lemon:

creakid1 · December 2007

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/213369/volkswagen_golf.html

Looks like turbo charge alone is too unsophisticated for a "driver on demand" GTI, as the only way to force fed w/o lag is super-&-turbo charge (unless it's a BMW engine):

"Engine details have yet to be confirmed, but VWs clever 1.4-litre TSI petrol powerplant will lead the way under the bonnet. This unit will come in a choice of 120bhp and 148bhp turbocharged guises, while a 168bhp version is equipped with a turbocharger and a supercharger. The hot hatch GTI model will feature an even more powerful 2.0-litre TSI motor.

The only normally aspirated engine in the line-up will be the 3.2-litre V6 fitted to the top-of-the-range R32."

"Under the surface, the MkVI Golf uses the existing cars underpinnings. But according to insiders at the company, engineers have come up with
a less complicated rear suspension set-up. The outgoing MkVs multi-link system is both time-consuming and expensive to produce, and the new geometry is designed to provide significant cost savings without affecting the models superb ride and handling."

Really? Just like how Civic lost the double wishbones in the front after 2000 & claimed the same thing?

Even BMW needed to use 5 links in the rear of the new 1 & 3 series in order to apply the similar principle as Focus' 4-link Control Blade, which BMW almost bought its platform years ago. How can VW find a simpler way after hiring the Focus engineers designing the Control Blade 4-link rear on the MkV? Look man, Control Blade is already the most cost effective way to produce the high-tech rear suspension...

Boy, it's all about cheap interior (as in the Focus) vs cheap suspension (as in the VW except MkV). So that leaves the Mazda3 (& S40/V50) soldiering on w/ the "expensive" Control Blades from the Focus.

It's funny that Mexico is now the supplier of the Jetta V pretty much worlde wide including Europe. But since the MkV's suspension is just a little too expensive to build, they actually continues the production of the "expensive-interior w/ soft plastic" MkIV w/ a new cute front & rear end, while the MkV is called Bora/Sport instead.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkklN4FhHAmcBwI9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4NzhpZ3UxBHNlYwNz- - - - - - - - - cgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y3NTRfNzgEbANXUzE-/SIG=13lge16fm/EXP=1197093325/**- - - - - - - - - http%3a//www.volkswagen.com/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/es_m- - - - - - - - - x/models/jetta.html

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkk4q6VhHDeIA7i9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4NzhpZ3UxBHNlYwNz- - - cgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y3NTRfNzgEbANXUzE-/SIG=12m36rc6q/EXP=1197095594/**- - - http%3a//es.autoblog.com/2007/07/25/vw-lanza-el-bora-2008-en-mexico/

China may already use the name Bora on the MkIV still in production. But since the MkII (wearing '96 Passat front & '08 Jetta IV rear end) is also in production using the name Jetta, they have to call the MkV Sagitar instead.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/MediaNav/articleId=109995/firstNav=Gallery/- - - - - - - - - photoId=27534

eldaino · April 2008

consumer reports has only stated that the 2.0t isnt exactly the most reliable engine of all time....they actually reccomend the jetta, the 2.5 and there is not enough data on the rabbit. Granted that the rabbit is just a hatch version of the jetta, its safe to assume that this newfound reliablity spreads to it as well.

at any rate, why are you even talking carfan? you OWN a freaking 2.0t in the form of a gli, and while its by no means a bad car, whyt are you knocking what you own? :confuse:

ramsnjettas · April 2008

I sell both. They are each an excellent vehicle, but the rabbit's 2.5l I-5 with 6 speed Auto or 5 speed Manual are a little quicker and more sport-tuned than the mazda's 2.3. it just depends on what you are looking for

tsungtak · April 2008

I traded My 03 Accord v6 for a Rabbit 2 door, 5 speed For my 18 year old daughter. I paid 14,500 for the car. My experience with the dealership was a 10, repairs include only a lose vent, avg gas mileage is around 25mpg. My daughter wanted this car because she thought it was cute.

A true test came when we took a trip to Chicago from Memphis and back in a 42 hour period, I was so impressed with this car, We got around 29 mpg, On the interstate we probably averaged 80 mph and peaked around 95 mph. The ride was very comfortable, good pickup even at 75 mph. We left Chicago at 10 pm in a really bad rain storm, the traction control handled amazingly, the headlights and wipers did their job very well. In the City the car was easy to drive, the little 2.5 engine was perfect, its not a race car but had plenty of
pickup. Also while on the 9 hour trip we were never without a good radio station. My only complaints are the the stick shift, Sometimes starting from a start it wasn't very forgiving and I thought the gas mileage could have been better. The bottom line is I was comfortable and felt safe. This car gets a 9.5 in my book.but when you factor the price of the car it gets a 10+,

creakid1 · April 2008

Good point!

I've always thought that this new Rabbit is amazingly comfy-riding for a small car. My 2000 Civic hatch (the most recent model w/ the high-tech full-double-wishbone suspension all around) isn't even close. I also doubt the clumsy heavy bulky '03 Accord w/ huge turning circle really rides smoother than the Rabbit.

I almost bought a Rabbit/Jetta last year, but was only appalled by the electric pwr steering's lack of feel. Instead, I decided to collect an '07 Focus 2.3 ST & sacrifice ride comfort a little.

Just days ago when upgrading to Quaife differential in my Mazda-powered Focus, I had a '95 Jetta VR6 as loaner car. I was impressed by its good-old VW steering's natural feel & the decently absorbent ride comfort, even w/o the modern Focus-type Control Blade multi-link rear suspension found in the most recent VW's. Too bad that an old VW had several broken parts everywhere -- it makes my '90 Mazda Protege twin-cam feel like a new car by comparison.

600kgolfgt · May 2008

Carfanatic007:
Actually, Consumer reports disagrees and they (VW GTI/Rabbit) are not recommended due to poor reliability. What a surprise.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/past-road-test/hatchbacks/overview/hatch- - - backs-ov.htm

What say you, Carfanatic?

godaddy1 · May 2008

Whoa there 600kgolfgt ! I bought a new 1999 VW Passat 4-cyl turbo (base engine) with an automatic as Consumer Report recommended in 1999.

BIG MISTAKE - It bearly made 74K miles. List of some items I recall:
replaced defective steering rack (warranty covered)
Mutiple engine oil leaks (warranty covered)
broken glove compartment (not covered-I fixed with $.02 screw which they wanted $240 to replace it)
electrical sensor on transmission (est $450 to fix) which kept reverse lights on (not covered under powertrain since its electrical part ?!!!)
and the biggy --> timing belt broke at 69K miles crushing valves...well before the 100K warranty (VW replaced it but it took 1-1/2 weeks to fix). I actually called 3 VW places before the incident to find out when timing belt is to be replaced, they all stated 105K (conveniently just 5K after powertrain warranty :mad: ).

The #1 reason not to buy VW, the VW service guy told me to unload my 1999 as soon as possible, I did --> now that's VW confidence !!!! :lemon:

p.s. I told my brother to buy one which he did get a 2000 Passat with 5 speed and he never lets me forget since he has had major & minor issues as well.

seminole_kev · May 2008

And I had to unload a lemon of a 2005 Toyota Tacoma pickup in under 2 years. Past experience with a manufacturer does not indicate future performance fortunately/unfortunately

600kgolfgt · May 2008

Whoa there 600kgolfgt ! I bought a new 1999 VW Passat 4-cyl turbo (base engine) with an automatic as Consumer Report recommended in 1999.

School's in session. Here's your homework. Learn it well:

New Rule - It is not wise to purchase an automobile (from any manufacturer) early in the production cycle. I learned that the hard way with my first VW - a 1975 Mk1 Scirocco (eventually drove it 200,000 miles after getting the initial bugs fixed) - and secondly with my next car - 1977 Datsun 280z (the first year a 5-speed manual transmission was offered, and suffered two transmission replacements as a result due to poorly designed bearings).

I learned my lesson well with my next four cars (all VWs):

1987 Golf GT - 16 years, 624,000 miles (until I hit a deer at 55 mph)
1997 Jetta 2.0 - 5 years, 250,000 miles (still going strong - engine doesn't burn a drop of oil)
2003 Wolfsburg Jetta 1.8T - 5 years, 115,000 miles (still going strong)
2003 Passat GLS 1.8T - 5 years, 80,000 miles (still going strong)

Do you sense a pattern here? All four cars mentioned were purchased at or near the end of the production cycle - enough time for the manufacturer to work out most of the bugs...

The VW service department who advised you to dump your car was more than likely a big cause of your problems by cutting corners on the maintenance and/or ignoring factory recommendations (such as using the wrong motor oil, for example).

Case in point:

The demise of your timing belt is caused by one of the following conditions:

1) Sludge. The dealership, the factory (and possibly the car's owner) dropped the ball on this one. Turbocharged engines REQUIRE synthetic oil (meeting the VW 502.00 specification) every 5000 miles. Not 5001 miles. Not 6000 miles. Not 7500 miles. Not "Oh I haven't changed my oil since I bought the car new". No exceptions, do not pass GO, do not collect $200. The service department more than likely used conventional 5w-30 motor oil which they purchased in bulk to save money. Sludging eventually causes oil starvation - especially to the cylinder head with the camshaft operating the timing belt. Cylinder head seizes while engine is still running - timing belt gets sheared - valves meet pistons - bye, bye, engine. At the time immediately before the timing belt broke, major engine damage has already occurred.

2) Water pump. But since your car is a 1999, the engine more than likely had the older-style aluminum water pump (which will last at least 150,000+ miles) instead of the plastic water pump that came on the scene during the late 1999 model year. If your car has a date of manufacture past mid 1999, then chances are it has the plastic water pump which has been known to disintegrate around the 60,000 - 70,000 mile mark (confirmed when I had the timing belt service performed on my two 1.8Ts at 65,000 and 73,000 miles respectively) - resulting in the broken pieces jamming the water pump. And since the plastic water pump is driven by the timing belt, a seized water pump will lead to the timing belt's demise in similar fashion as the sludge scenario described above.

Lesson learned:

Those drivers who insist on being the "first kid on the block to have the newest car fresh off the assembly line" are volunteering to become beta testers for the automotive industry, usually at great expense $$$$.

As an aside, the powertrain in the Rabbit has been in production since 2005, and has been quite reliable during that period, and at present (being a non-turbo engine with a timing chain helps as well). So chances are that the 2008 model has most of the bugs worked out....

creakid1 · May 2008

"Do you sense a pattern here? All four cars mentioned were purchased at or near the end of the production cycle - enough time for the manufacturer to work out most of the bugs...

Lesson learned:

Those drivers who insist on being the "first kid on the block to have the newest car fresh off the assembly line" are volunteering to become beta testers for the automotive industry, usually at great expense $$$$."

That's the whole point. Being the original owner of the first-year-model 1990 Mazda Protege produced in Japan, I still found the car long lasting & quite trouble free even today, aside from very few minor early- production glitches that were remedied by the factory service bulletins.

But the same cannot be said about the last-year-model 1984 MkI Jetta produced in Germany -- things have been falling apart for many years.

Well, I am glad that at least my 1999 E36 BMW 328is & 2007 Focus ST (w/ Mazda-developed 2.3 powerplant) all came from the very end of the production cycle.

aviboy97 · May 2008

"It is not wise to purchase an automobile (from any manufacturer) early in the production cycle"

That is not accurate. There are many mfgrs that you can purchase a vehicle from in its first few model years and have little no issues. Most of the Japanese makes have little issues in their first few years, where as German brands tend to have numerous issues not only in their first years, but many years afterward.

I will say, credit is due to VW for improving their product.

autonomous · May 2008

There are many mfgrs that you can purchase a vehicle from in its first few model years and have little no issues. Most of the Japanese makes have little issues in their first few years

Last year Consumer Reports showed that even the venerable Toyota and Honda companies experience more issues in their initial production years than in the second, third or following years. As a consumer, it seems like a wise strategy to wait until the early adopters test out the new releases.

Mazda3 2.3 vs. '07 VW Rabbit

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