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Mazda3 2.3 vs. '07 VW Rabbit
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Comments
If you as a consumer think it is wise to wait until the 3rd or 4th year of production on a particular vehicle, that is ok. Most cars tend to have a few issues in their first couple years. My point was that the German makes are so much more suseptable to problems then Japanese cars are, and since you brought up CR, they also agree with my statement.
Because of the CR recommendation, I placed an order for one. What I have found is you can wait forever to get this car if you order it the way you want it. VW really must improve their distribution system.
THIRTEEN WEEKS?? :sick:
I have a leased vehicle due back July 31st. I e-mailed my VW sales guy this morning to give me a definite commitment on an ordered Rabbit by June 5th, or I have to walk. The guy didn't ask me for a deposit yet and he took my order two weeks ago. He won't ask me for a deposit until he knows for sure he can get me the vehicle. I hear VW isn't building any more 2008's, so there is a real possibility he won't be able to get it for me.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
I first drove the Mazda. It featured the 5-speed manual and 2.3L I-4. It was a fun car to drive, well equipped, and nicely peppy. The styling inside and out is sharp, sexy (for a compact) and modern. Materials used in the cabin were nice enough but the LED strip in the stereo head unit was gimmicky.
Then I drove the Volkswagen. It felt more solid and substantial as well as feeling of a more mature car. Its manual transmission also had a more connected and mechanical feel. Styling is subdued but pleasing, with easy entry seats into the rear of the 3-door model.
I did return to drive the Mazda, and that sealed the deal for me to get the VW.
The Mazda is a noisy little [non-permissible content removed] of a fun car but has far too much commotion for my tastes and felt like a cheap tin can compared to the Volkswagen Rabbit.
Also, in my 2008 VW Rabbit witht he 170hp 2.5L 5-cylinder engine, I average at least 26 mpg and have seen up to 31 mpg on the Interstate.
These are unimpressive numbers for a small car using a manual transmission.
The Mazda is a noisy little [non-permissible content removed] of a fun car but has far too much commotion for my tastes and felt like a cheap tin can compared to the Volkswagen Rabbit
Bizarre, this description of the Mazda3 seems to defy all previous evaluations of the car.
Borrowing football parlance, I actually think the Rabbit is a bit of a tweener --- even though in exterior dimensions it seems to compete with cars such as the Mazda3 and Civic, in terms of engine size & output, and interior room and amenities, and overall refinement, it almost can be compared to the next size segment, the 4 cyl versions of the Legacy, Accord, Mazda6, etc. If view in that vein, then its mpg is not too disappointing. Just like the Mini, even though it is a small car, I don't think fuel economy has ever been its top priority.
Rabbit 2.5 is rated at 21/30 and the Mazda3 2.3 at 22/29 mpg (both w/manual trans) by EPA. Based on this a driver of either car should be expected to get about the same mpg.
Agreed. But since the average fuel economy of both cars with manual transmissions is in the mid to high 20's it remains unimpressive and needs improvement. A small car with a manual transmission should be averaging in the 30's not the 20's in my opinion. One way of achieving this is by shaving weight off the car; both cars should be aiming for 2500 pounds rather than the nearly 3000 pounds they cart around.
While your BMW is a 6 cyl, isn't it just a 2.5? If so the HP and displacement is not much different from many 4 cylinders today (or VW's 5 cyl).
In particular, here we are talking about the 2.5L 170 HP VW 5cyl and a car that weighs about 3100 pounds in the case of the Rabbit. The Mazda3 2.3 uses the same 2.3 engine that last year's Mazda6 used, though weight is a couple hundred pounds less than the 6 was.
The number for the mid-sized car I mentioned, a 2009 Sonata, were EPA, since I don't have my own real-world numbers on that car. They are 22 city, 32 highway--better than the much smaller Mazda3 and Rabbit even though the Sonata is heavier and more powerful. Other mid-sized cars, e.g. the Malibu and Accord, also get better EPA FE than these two small cars.
Anyway, that's not the topic here, but I thought I'd mention some other data in support of the earlier post that these two small cars should get better fuel economy.
A lot depends on the power / torque curve and transmission gearing. Mazda and Volkswagen engines tend to be torquey and have great low end power. That kills city fuel economy. I know Mazda's are geared very high, even in top gear, which hinders highway FE. I'm not sure about VW's.
Why do you think Honda 4 bangers do so well in FE tests? They have no torque, and the their power band is near the top of the RPM range (that's VTEC for you). They are also have a low top gear. They are built to excel in EPA tests, however, when you get on them, like in performance tests, they usually get beat in the FE category because they are driven to get all the power they can out of them just to keep up with the others in those tests.
I've never seen the 2.8L I6 power / torque curve from the BMW, but I'm almost certain that there is not much low end power. Their gearing is also low in top gear.
EPA like to shift manual transmission at certain mph's regardless of gearing. So if you are smart enough, then you will shift as early as possible w/o lugging the engine. That way, you do get better mpg w/ fat-torque engines. Because, under the same output level, engines w/ low-end bias setting involve less total travel friction b/t the piston ring & the cylinder sidewall.
Engines are most efficient when there is about 0.5 liter per cylinder. Balance shafts also waste fuel. So don't get the 4-cyl Mazda w/ more than 2.0 if you want "the best fuel economy", which was exactly what CR said about the 2.0 Mazda3!
FYI the numbers for the 2000 328 are 193 hp and 206 lb.-ft. at 3500 rpm. That seems like pretty decent low end power to me, by the numbers and from driving experience. That compares to 156 hp and 150 lb.-ft. at 4500 rpm for the 2.3L engine in the Mazda3, and 150 hp (170 for 2008+) and 170 lb.-ft. at 3750 (177 @ 4250 for 2008+) rpm for the Rabbit. So I'd say the Rabbit has excellent torque for its size, but the Mazda3 is OK but not great there. Not great enough to excuse the relatively low fuel economy, IMO.
Also, I think you meant the Mazda3 is geared very low and the 328 geared high, not the converse, right? I am assuming you were trying to say that the rpms of the Mazda3 are relatively high at higher speeds and those of the 328 are relatively low. Actually, the top-end gearing on the 328 is pretty low, and the engine spins at higher revs than, for example, my 2.0L Elantra, and any other car with an engine of similar size that I have driven.
"Not great enough to excuse the relatively low fuel economy, IMO."
Maybe so, but, that seems to be the truth. Is there more to it? Probably. Lack of technology could be it too. The new 2.5L seems to be much much better with owners reporting 30+ on the highway with ease.
When driven reasonably, yes, I agree. But I know, and you also know if you've followed forums like the "real world fuel economy" discussions here at Edmunds.com, that it is possible and even common to not reach the EPA estimates. For example, I routinely exceed the EPA estimates on any car I drive, but my wife has the proverbial lead foot and doesn't hit the EPA numbers.
Which Mazda3 is the 2.5L engine available with?
2010 Mazda3 will have the new and improved 2.0L with the rumored start-stop system and more power. It will also have the 170hp 2.5L.
Dunno about comparing the ride, but for a midsize car, the previous generation Accord has a tidy turning radius, at 36.9 ft, versus the compact Rabbit with 35.8 ft. Considering the class of car, I don't think the Accord's radius is "huge," unless you consider the compact Vee-Dub's radius as "huge" also.
Yeah, I know its an old post, but I read it and couldn't help myself. :shades:
The Mazda3 IS noisy. Check out Car&Driver's website if you don't believe. It just doesn't feel as solid as the Volkswagen does. What I stated does in no way go against what most of the auto rags have published.
In my opinion, many car magazines tend not to be systematic in their testing so I rely on Consumer Reports.
As it turns out CR agrees with you about the Mazda3, i.e. "road noise is pronounced." Inerestingly Tony Swan, one of the Car and Driver reviewers found the Mazda3 "quiet". When I tested the Mazda3 earlier this fall I did not find the noise excessive.
Regarding the Rabbit, CR says in the June 2008 issue: "Some road noise is persistent over most surfaces, and the engine can sound gruff when it is revved up, but overall the Rabbit is fairly quiet." I guess I'll have to drive a Rabbit and find out myself.
The Mazda 3 was nice but betwen the two of us we both thought the Rabbit was better by far....The interior of the rabbit is outstanding...You can tell a difference just by closing the door...
The Rabbit = Better interior, fit and finish, less road noise, less wind noise, much stronger engine, better sound system, absorbs bumps more smoothly, similar handling and braking, very solid feel when driving yet very smooth...Traction control, and electronic stability programming ect ect...
The Mazda3 is nice and both of us thought it was better than the rest of the small cars but we liked the Rabbit better...But it is about $1,500 to $2000 more for us....
Don't think you would go wrong with the Mazda3 at all...It's nice too we just liked the Rabbit better.
Had a Rabbit 5-Speed been available, I would have bought it over the Mazda3, that said, am I sad that I bought the Mazda? Nope, it's a fine little car. ;-)
Best regards,
Shipo
Regardless, the MS3 is a nice car.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Best regards,
Shipo
I think we were separated at birth... :P
Okay, no more looking. I want what I have, serenity now!
Ley me know if that works out.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Good for you!
I always say that you can never have too many entertaining cars...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive