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Look to diesel/biodiesel for the next fuel source for large cars.
My "list" in order of importance to me is:
Smooth quiet ride, cloth seating, auto-climate control, engine/transmission performance, MPG, cost, and warranty. (Factory high-end audio with satellite radio) (Optional).
The Car Choices: Nissan Maxima has auto-climate and cloth but only is found in the firm riding SE.
Ford and Chrysler offer auto-climate but you must take leather.
Choices now narrowed to three, Avalon, Azera, and Lucerne.
Now this is not to be taken as bashing but are just my observations and opinions.
Both the Avalon XL and Azera SE had too firm of a ride for me. I felt even minor road irregularities in each car. This is not a problem for other people, and I know in general, that the firmer the ride, the better the handling, they are engineering trade-offs.
The Azera had tremendous power upon demand while the Avalon was noisy at idle and hesitated to downshift at highway speeds and when it did, the engine screamed audibly.
Since a Smooth Ride is Priority #1 I had to eliminate both cars. (The Azera was the best value and both cars met most needs on the "list").
The Lucerne CX comes with 16 inch tires that compliment it's great smooth ride. When I first drove this car, I actually smiled as I knew that this was it. The Buick Engineers had struck the correct balance of comfort and control for my taste.It also comes standard with an auto-level feature that levels the car when fully or partially loaded,(4or 5 people,possibly luggage too ) this really does improves handling on a long trip.
For those who want a more controlled ride the CXL has 17 inch tires,firmer struts,and leather seats for about $2K more.
The Lucerne was recently tested and proven quieter than a similarly priced Lexus! (Yes, it was a GM commercial, but they have the data to back up the claim).
The V-6 engine is old school but it is smooth and has abundant low end torque that meet my demands for every day driving and delivers 28 Mpg.highway. Over 25 million of the type 3800 engines have been sold with many going over 200,000 miles without major repairs and my Buick Park Ave. has 157,000 and still runs great. That = Dependability.
The Lucerne CX starts at $26K MSRP (24K invoice) and mine will have every option except sunroof, by choice and will invoice at $27.7K.
The HOST has asked us to write about what we do not like about the car as well.
1. Install a door pull in the upper front part of the door as you have to lean outside the car to close if fully open.
2. Upgrade the cloth seats, they do not look well in Buick's Flagship Sedan.
If you must keep the MSRP low, to attract customers, offer a "Cloth High-End Seating Option" as Buick now offers 5 or 6 leather options.
3. Why are the seats wider in the MID-Size Lacrosse? (20 inches in width both front and back of the seat's surface area).
The Full-Size Lucerne seats, bucket or bench, measure 20 inches in the front but taper to 18 inches at the rear of
the seat.
No car is perfect, but the Lucerne exceeded expectations on the most important items on my "list".
They aren't as great as they make them out to be . . AND, many of the American vehicles aren't as BAD as they make them out to be.
My brothers have owned Toyotas and Hondas, while I've owned Fords. Over 15 years, the only difference is that they pay more for them up front, and get more from them at the end. The net cost, though, is about the same. We've all had about the same amount of problems that have required repair at the dealer . . which is to say, not all that much.
Go climb into a Five Hundred and take it for a spin. Be sure to climb in and out of it, many times. Then go do the same with the other vehicles. Then see which you prefer.
If you like to step DOWN into your car, then you probably won't like the Five Hundred. If you prefer to just SLIDE OVER into your car, then the Five Hundred is what you're after.
I got mine with the AWD/CVT. Mainly, I wanted the CVT, but I also wanted the AWD. It was possible to get the CVT without the AWD, but not nearly as easy. With the AWD, you *had* to get the CVT.
This combo made it a perfect match for my Freestyle (basically, a tall station wagon version of the Five Hundred).
I have fully loaded versions of both (2005). Navigation wasn't an option then, so I don't have that. Also, the rear entertainment system wasn't an option on the Five Hundred, so I don't have that. I'd almost certainly leave that off my Freestyle if I did it again. Actually, I had intended to do that, but that particular vehicle never came in . . until about a week after I got the one with the DVD player. LOL.
I'd probably forego the moonroofs next time, too. But this was my first time for owning a vehicle with one . . and my first time ever for getting ALL the factory options on a vehicle. Probably be my last time, as well.
I love the vehicles . . . just as nice as any Toyota / Lexus / Honda / Acura whatever I've ridden in. And I have many friends and relatives that drive those.
What trim and options does your Five Hundred have? Did you buy new? What was the MSRP and final buying price? What was your negotiating strategy?
I like the 2006 SE. I don't need to spend on higher trims just to pay for extra options I'll have to pay even more for and a few added decorations. If higher trims came with an engine upgrade like the Impala or 300 I could see the reason.
The CVT is supposed to be the better trany. I wouldn't want the AWD, no need in NYC and save a little gas. I like the perfect crash ratings and ergonomics for the family. My desired options would be the safety and security and traction on the 2WD SE trim in gray, black, or silver. Hate the wood grain trim in interior. Would have to be shale interior. I think my target negotiated price would be around $20,000 with the $1,000 rebate. Car isn't selling that well, right?
I think it's the perfect family car. Ergonomic, affordability, safe is what I'm looking for. Wish I could add fuel economy into the equation but I'd have to sacrifice a priority or 2. :sick: :surprise:
Both are Limited trims (2005), and had every available option.
I bought both of them new. The Freestyle was bought in Jan 2005 using X-plan pricing (a few hundred above invoice), and there was also a $1,000 rebate program at the time. The Five Hundred was bought in Jul 05 using the "employee pricing", and I believe there was also a $1,000 rebate on that one. The Freesytle was financed for 36 months at 1.9% . the Five Hundred was 36 months at 0%.
I live near Houston, so I opted for the lighter leather interior. I, too, would've rather NOT had the fake wood-grain interior. However, it HAS grown on me. The cheap little analog clock on the Five Hundred, though, still annoys me. LOL
I have no real "need" for the AWD, either. However, I do think it might (VERY) occasionally "save my bacon" when it's raining. It does cost 2 - 3 mpg and adds a couple hundred pounds to the weight of the car. However, it's a tried and true system (Haldex from Volvo), and the way it's implemented minimizes both extra weight AND the effect on gas mileage. Basically, the car is always in FWD mode unless traction is needed at the rear tires. Combined with the 'traction control', the whole thing is one very slick combo, IMO.
Sorry, I don't remember the actual final prices of either vehicle. I do know that the Freestyle was over 30k . . and I think that the Five Hundred was closer to 25k.
I know about the Chevy Impala. Would it really be a mistake to buy the E85 version? It has the ability to use E85 or gasoline, right? Hybrids are just too expensive right now for me to consider those. My next vehicle I'm trying to keep out-the-door under $25,000. I don't think that would be possible since all hybrids are going for sticker price and according to Edmunds some cases over sticker! Looks like the cheapest hybrids is also the smallest, the Civic which MSRP is $22,150. The Camry Hybrid's MSRP is $25,900. Imagine how much a Avalon Hybrid would run! :surprise:
Large sedan hybrids would be out of my price range. So what's left as an alternative fuel source? E85, diesel, or hydrogen maybe? VW Jetta has a diesel version which starts at $22,680, but VW's are all expensive. That's why I'm considering the 3.5L Impala. The alternatives right now are too expensive or just aren't out yet.
The only other new alternative I think is left is 4 cyls. The only large sedan that has a 4 cyl is the Hyundai Sonata, which reviews aren't bad.
Otherwise I'll buy used. So when the time comes for the transition I won't lose too much money replacing it with a sedan that isn't too expensive and uses the future fuel source. Imagine if you bought a Toyota Avalon and in 2-5 years gasoline became too expensive. What would happen to residual values? I think they would be nonexistent because no one would want to buy one. Of course this would be the same for any vehicle that runs on gasoline. These are scary times for new car buyers my friends! :surprise: :sick:
Ford sales down 35.2%: trucks down 44.8%, cars down 6.7%
Chrysler sales down 37.4%: trucks down 40%, cars down 23.5%
Toyota sales up 11.7%: cars up 19.8%, trucks up 1.3%; Toyota out sold Ford by 17,000 vehicles!
Honda sales up 6%: cars up 6.4%, trucks up 6.8%; Company was unable to keep up with sales for small cars.
Nissan sales down 19.5%: trucks down 24.9%, cars down 14.5%
To GM, Ford, and Chrysler the key words are FUEL ECONOMY!
Well, yes and no - the current variety of G,F,C cars while generally underpowered are more competitive when it comes to FE. Just like loyalbuickfan's Lucerne - 28mpg highway (his number) on a car that size and weight pretty darn good and in the same neighborhood as most other V6 cars in that category. Two reasons for the sales drops: 1) people don't trust US branded cars and, 2) given a choice between power and economy, people want both - a technology issue that the 'US' makers are not equipped to handle!
Keep in mind also that a much, much larger portion of the 'US' mfgrs. 'sales' end up in fleets and the rental car lots - places where car are not sold, but rather acquired from the lowest bidder.
I think that these sedans would benefit greatly by using alternative fuels because of weight affecting mpgs. I just hope when they do, they use diesel and don't go the route of hybrids. The increase in price of that sedan might not be included in this forum.
I've recently changed my priorities of my future vehicle. Look back over the past year how fast gas prices have risen. I know an old man who told me that he remembers paying .30 a gallon! Gas prices today are increasing much too fast. I live in Staten Island, NY. A couple of weeks ago we were paying $3.15 and today are paying over $3.30! What will I be paying next month?! :mad:
If I were to buy a vehicle tomorrow, I would go with a Mazda 3 hatch!
Wait and see.
Over what time period was this?
How about Hyundai? What was its % increase or decrease?
But what about taxes and other costs? Look at property taxes, federal and state income taxes, phone bill taxes, tire taxes, oil disposal taxes, tire taxes, documentation fees, restaurant meal prices, bank fees, house prices, energy costs, maintenance costs including parts and labor, towing prices, insurance prices and decreases in coverage, medical and prescription prices, price of gold and silver, etc.
Most people have less buying power now than then.
The dollar is wasting away.
Real interesting info about coal. Is it really clean? If so, that's amazing! Hope it comes to pass soon!
Also invoice is $17,896 + $600 Destination - 1,500 current rebate = $16,996! Definitely can fit in this forum!
If you want maximum space, you could go the minivan route and if you don't load them up with too many luxuries, can stay in the high teens, low $20's in cost, and they will blow away any sedan in spaciousness and comfort.
Is there any sedan out there that has exceptional MPGs, at least 105 cu ft interior, and has an out-the-door price under $25k?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
well, maybe for you - volume numbers mean little, these are larger cars - go sit in the back seats (and front) of an Avalon and the 500 - you can actually expect that real full size adults could be comfortable back there on a long trip. Not so with things like Accords, Altimas, Fusions, Sonatas, Malibus, Camrys etc.. Has to do with wheelbase, length and width. Hyundai has the Azera that fits very well into this category.
Further, I don't believe that most shoppers for this type of car really would have anything to do with a wheezy little 4 banger because what they are looking for primarily is smooth and quiet to go along with that size.
cars that are classified as Large sedans.
In one of your earliest messages(#13) you posted an accurate list of the choices.
Just because one parameter like interior volume exceeded
a spec. by one cu. foot it does not really "make it" a Large car.
The price comparisons would then be biased toward the mid size cars presented.
The EPA publishes Miles per Gallon Handout Booklets,and the Categories are strictly established and that is what I think we should adhere to,in this discussion.
Please don't change the rules, a mid size discussion can be started elsewhere!
Saw an Azera today. The car looked real sharp, both in motion and while parked.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The other cars, while not sports cars, at least have SOME road-feel left in them.
But you guys are right. I stand corrected.
I never refuted the fact the Sonata is smaller than "true" large sedans. My response, rather, is directed toward the other poster regarding EPA classifications.
FWIW, the Sonata is quite large - defn. larger than most midsize sedan, so it would not be far-fetched to consider the car placed at the lower end of the large sedan category. Similarily, I would have no problem with people calling the new Elantra a midsize, despite it competes with compact vehicles in the class.