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Comments
also tried incidentally by Mitsubishi, damn near put them out of business - deja vu?
But, I still agree a reasonably priced version could do well.
I'm surprised to see you state that, though. You are always knocking Detroit cars for being old-tech and that chassis would be around 8 yrs old now. Now it's a good idea to keep an old car around? What gives?
Honestly, with Mercedez and BMW using numerical identifiers on their cars...it makes it even harder for other companies to do so effectively. Mazda found a way, but Ford needs to go back to the normal type moniker. Leave the exotic sounding call letters (MKZ, LS, MKS) for it's luxo Lincoln line. It would seem that Ford is trying to be more than it really is.
Chysler lucked out, they could have named the 300 anything they wanted and it still would have sold like crazy just because the darn thing looks so commanding in person and on the road.
There's a lot of heritage in the 300 name. It was always the risky, next-gen vehicle for Chrysler so I guess maybe it always "lucked out." I agree they could've called it just about anything and it would've sold.
In the case of the 500...it looks so much better than any Taurus ever did. It would almost be like clipping the wings on a bird to re-dub it. Honestly, I say keep the 500 moniker, make the engine upgrade and push the heck out of it in the media.
"More of what you're used to, just with a little more kick!"
Of course, my XG never went out of warranty (100,000 mi) but other than a headlight at 35K, I never had any warranty claims. Avalon was superb too, but had a few more VERY minor warranty problems.
Have no problem with old tech as you call it as long as it is good old tech. The Nissan VQ has been around in one form or another for as long as the DT Ford - one is a great engine that has proven itself, the other should have been put out to pasture at least 5 years ago. Same could be said for the GM 3.8 except 10 years ago!
have to call your hand on this one - using the 2006 models of the specific cars you mentioned, kbb.com trade in values, 15000 mile, and excellent conditions, the Avalon is worth $24425.00 the Azera $19850.00 - sure looks like close to that $5 grand to me? We don't know, of course, what will happen to these relative values in the future, of course.
I mean...if you go with the prices quoted by jaymagic...the Avalon for $31K and the Azera for $26K...then those trade in value prices reflect that they both hold their value...almost equally.
I mean...you pay about $6K less for a fully loaded Azera compared to an Avalon, so a year later at trade in, the fact that the value difference is just under $5K. In the case of the Avalon, you pay slightly more, so it's worth slightly more at trade in time.
However...looking at it from a percentage standpoint, it does seem a bigger difference. 25% of $26K vs. 20% of $31K. While the percentage of loss is greater on the Hyundai, in respect to dollar amount...it's close to the same amount of money. I don't know about you, but you can talk percentages till you're blue in the face, what matters the most to me is how much money I'm maintaining or losing.
I agree there will be a larger gap further down the road, but that gap will not be as wide as some might think it would be.
BTW, my gas mileage in town has typically been between 22 and 23, which by these boards may be better than average for an Azera. (I play with the power, so don't assume I am trying to eek out every mile). Based on my experience with the Avalon, I would bet that it has better gas mileage than my Azera, because I thought it was ungodly how good the mileage was on my old Avalon. But again the ballpark 2 mpg more, simply did not overcome the purchase price. In the real world, at time of purchase, with the category of this forum being best sedan for UNDER $30,000, I am not sure why the Avalon comparison is that much of an issue, unless you want to compare only the entry level Avalon and then the Azera really does kick butt.
I have to admit, my fuel economy isn't what it could be. On the highway...I'm always cruising around 75-80 mph and since there's so much city driving mixed in...it's hard to see consistent numbers.
The comparison is creating such a buzz because it's the media that started it. Then to find out that Toyota is looking over it's shoulder because of the moves that Hyundai has made in the last couple years. Because of that, Hyundai has become Toyota's direct competition. It makes sense considering Hyundai has been following the Toyota model, as of late, in bringing value based, dependable products to market. However, Hyundai is doing it with a twist...making the vehicles extremely applealing to most.
Sold my bought-new 1977 Accord at the 20-year and 328,000 mile mark for a hundred bucks to a Honda service adviser 'cause the wiring harness finally went south. Still have my 1990 Accord (bought in '91 with 28k miles, used in conjunction with my kinda ratty-looking old '77 for about 6 years) which now has nearly a quarter-of-a-million miles on it and I'll prolly sell it to a neighbor, as I really don't need the '90 as a backup.
I'll take a chance on the Azera (though I did buy the extended warranty) and let Hyundai worry about it for the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty period, then I'll wing it from there. Owned only 2 cars over a thirty-year period, hope to now make it THREE cars over a FIFTY year period!...
Weeeeeell, yes. A new engine at about the 169,000 mile mark. I think it was the cheap Italian oil I was using for two years in Italy that turned it into an oil burner.
I was going to have it torn down and repaired, but the dealer had a right-off-the-boat-from Japan crated new engine (not a rebuild) for $2000 installed and I went that route. That new engine still was using no oil between changes for the next 159,000 miles until I sold.
The '90 has required nothing major, to date, even still has the original AC compressor...
Perhaps some people may have given the V8 versions lower scores because they are unhappy with the fuel economy or that they spent more money compared to the V6 so they are more demanding.
The 300C/Charger Hemis have been a monstrous success for DC, despite all this, and the design is a good example for Ford and GM - the type of car that "Detroit" does best. IMO, despite the obvious grins from sub 6 second 0-60 power with the Hemi, the engine of choice is the 3.5, which is doing much better ratings wise.
The rear suspension is stiffer for the V8 compared to the V6 but not sure why that would cause problems.
This is why I don't have much faith in Consumer Reports.
For example, they will good marks to a Buick Regal but not for a Pontiac Grand Prix which is essientially the same car.
For the life of me, I still don't understand why Hyundai hasn't gotten behind the Azera with a major push to put it out in the mainstream media
Incidentally, a neighbor who owns a loaded to the gills 04 Camry, visited me in my driveway - and made some comments about how he couldn't justify the extra money for the Avalon when he bought. After explaning to him that it was not an optioned out Camry anymore -he was handed a set of keys. I think it scared him a little bit (even got an ahh s---!), but you never guess what appeared in his driveway a couple of months later!
I think that was the biggest problem Toyota had was the Avalon was really a more expensive Camry. Hyundai had that same problem with the Sonata and the XG. Yeah...you got a few more bells and whistles, a couple more ponies under the hood, but when it came to the interior space...they were almost identical. The XG never really came across as a 'flagship' type of car. The Azera, however...does so wtih class!
It took Toyota a while to catch up in the horsepower game. When Nissan dropped the 240 hp Altima, Honda quicky followed suit by boosting up the Accord...accordingly. Hyundai didn't do so right away, but they knew if they were to be taken seriously, they had to do something credible with the Sonata, thus...it got 240 ponies under the hood. It wasn't until then that Toyota woke up and realized..."Uh oh, we gotta do something!" Thus, they quickly started putting solid engines in the Avalon and the Camry.
I wonder what's going to happen now that the Altima offers the 270 hp powerplant!
The XG 350, while unique in look (to a degree)...didn't have enough to truly distinguish it as a 'flagship' model.
The Amanti...well, it's a poor man's Benz really. It is overweight and soft, but it was never purported to be anything of a sports sedan by any stretch of the imagination.
Azera...too Buick-like??? :confuse: Buick could only HOPE to create something like an Azera. Not to say that the Lucerne isn't a nice car, but it's no Azera. You would have to get the Lucerne with the V-8 to be able to compete with an Azera...sorry, no competition there. Also, why would the stability/traction control scare you away...you can turn it off you know!
I agree and have said earlier that "Detroit" could only wish to have what Hyundai currently has in the Sonata and Azera - and I think that the Azera is probably properly sprung for the average American driver taste - on the softer side! This would certainly be a strange objection from an Avalon owner, wouldn't it? Such is the difference between the Av Touring and XLS/LTD.
VSC/TC adversion all has to do with limitations that these systems mustput on any vehicle's handling capabilities, which I've been talking about in these forums for months now - trust me, you don't want to get me started.
The Azera is sprung a bit on the soft side, however...it's a luxury car, not a sport sedan. That is why I am so surprised that folks have an issue with the softer ride. Funny thing is, it can handle the driving that most Americans will do in it on a daily basis better than they think. I've driven mine hard a few times and came away pleasantly surprised. Maybe one thing that would be nice in the future is an adjustable suspension option.
The only thing that kills me is that folks look at a car and want it to be more than it really is. They mention the 7 second 0-60 time on the Azera and almost speak negatively on it...it's not a barn burner, but...it's not slow either. The handling, again...it's supposed to be an entry level luxury car, not touring/sports sedan.
While ESC/TC can limit some things, it enhances others. IMO...it's sorta like ABS. It can help you in the right conditions, but is it REALLY needed??? I had owned 7 cars prior to my Azera and none of them had ESC/TC nor did they have ABS and honestly...never really felt they were needed.
However, the ESC/TC has come in handy on my Azera when I turn onto an inclined street that's wet. Every car without it will spin out until the tires finally grab. My Azera will start to spin, but then the TC takes over and limits the spin-out to minimal and I'm on my way.
Again...is it a feature I really NEED, no. It is nice to have and I'm glad that I can swtich it off.
read this - an older road test for several of the cars in this group and pay attention to what they have to say about ESC in the 300, as well as the ride etc. in the Avalon tested. My contention is ESC can't, by any definition, enhance handling - but it can allow for control where you otherwise might not be able to handle it, much like ABS (which doesn't shorten stopping distances) it only allows more control. Hyundai should be lauded for the off switch, some mfgrs. don't do this and you end up at the mercy of what some computer geek (or lawyer) has decided are your abilities to handle a car properly. My only experience, incidentally exploring the effects of ESC interevention BTW, a Sonata - and it does limit cornering speeds etc as they are designed to do.
see told you, don't get me started.
BTW, I have seen Azera's 0-60MPH time listed everwhere from 6.1 (Car and Driver) to 7.0. Most seem to place it in the mid to low 6's, actually as quick or quicker than the Avalon. But again, I doubt I will ever need to see if my Azera is a tenth of a second slower or faster than an another car. I do know it moves out very well when needed.
If I were a betting man, however, I'd take the Avalon - less weight, more horsepower.
Personally, I don't plan on testing it out to see if it actually works. Again...is it NEEDED, probably not, but it's something that's there. If it bothers one that much...they can simply turn it off.
You can argue me if you want, but I stated MY Sonata did not. I had the '02 GLS without the TC/ABC option. Yes it was avaiable, but I felt I didn't need it.
The ESC can only limit cornering speed if it's ON, and only if oversteer is detected. Under normal circumstances...it doesn't interfere. Now what?
The XG had no more interior space than the 02-05 Sonatas. Trust me, I did the research when I purchased my Sonata. I just couldn't see myself shelling out more money for a car of the same size just to get a few more options and a couple extra ponies under the hood. It just didn't make sense to me or my bank account.
And you are wrong about the space. The Sonata back then had 100 cu.ft. Inside there is a noticeable difference. And the low rpm torque was significantly more too than the Sonata.
(and why should I trust you?)