Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2 · April 2007

those 4 Nissans I mentioned - a total of about 700k miles on them, and NOT ONCE did I ever have any of them in the shop, doing the routine maintainence myself. I would contend that Nissans are not only 'bulletproof' by any reasonable definition but also every bit the equal to Toyota and Honda at least based on my own not so insignificant experience.
To answer your other point I believe that the American brands are making 'quality' improvements for 2 reasons: 1) they aren't building (or selling) as many cars and because of the labor contracts have way too many employees that can, in turn, spend a lot of that extra time in quality control and 2) because of lack of finances, they continue to build their cars with older and sometimes ancient designs and technologies which, if nothing else, are proven and therefore should be more reliable. And I don't believe that the Japan 3 even consider the American 3 even to be competition anymore. They had better though, keep an eye on those 'upstart' Koreans and the soon to be starting Chinese.
PS - Sonata resale values were and are hurt by 2 things: 1) a concerted effort by Hyundai to put as many American butts in their products as possible thru the rental lots, those cars, eventually diluting the market and 2) the fact that they sold so darn cheap to begin with.

joe131 · April 2007

93 Maxima SE, 2 years old with 86,000 miles. Timing chain had to be replaced. $1800. I wish it had been bulletproof.

captain2 · April 2007

helps to check the oil every once in awhile? just kidding - of course, there are always individual horror stories, that may influence a car buyer's decisions for the rest of their lives. $1800.00 BTW, sounds like you got ripped off - that chain is neither that expensive or hard to replace.

joe131 · April 2007

the chain chewed up the casting adjacent to it

joe131 · April 2007

as an example:

Microsoft Word - Document3 (PDF)
Subject: 1996 Maxima Timing Chain. Question: ... need to be replaced at 100K miles, to the cost of about $2,000. It's. currently at 62K. ...www.owenautomotive.ca/_.pdf/96 Maxima Timing Chain.pdf - 38k - View as html - More from this site

dborth · April 2007

"PS - Sonata resale values were and are hurt by 2 things: 1) a concerted effort by Hyundai to put as many American butts in their products as possible thru the rental lots,"

Seems to me if you had a bad reputation for quality in the past a smart thing to do WOULD BE fill up rental lots. With the exceptions of police departments and taxi fleets what could be better to gain consumer confidence?

cnw · April 2007

BobWiley--Retired Air Force? Any chance you're the Bob Wiley that was assigned to AFTAC in Florida in the mid-1980s?

I concur with your post that quality has to be built in from the inception, and has to have the buy-in of those in design and working the line. It's a shame that the prime motivation appears to be something other than pride in product; Detroit is giving lip service to quality for the most part.
Clark

captain2 · April 2007

never said it was a bad idea did I? Hyundai did waht it likely needed to do. Police cars and taxis are what they sre specifically because they are so easy and inexpensive to repair, not necessarily because they are any more or less prone to break.

jsylvester · April 2007

Not gimmicks - that's why I drive the Grand Marquis - I'd take a head on in the Grand Marquis over it's competitors any day. :P Trust me, I've looked at the Avalon (my wife drives a Toyota) and all the others that are pretty much interchangable - on the Avalon, you cannot even change the oil yourself - they may as well seal the hood on it. I'm not letting someone else maintain my vehicles, and I can only imagine a Jiffy Lube guy trying to screw with an oil cartridge design.

It's a big car - I did lose about 1 mpg driving it over my 2000 Intrepid R/T, but I've also not had two transmission replacements, or a $1,200 air conditioning condenser. I'm also down to under $425 a year to insure it, which will buy a lot of gas even at today's prices.

When the Grand Marquis is put to rest, there is literally nothing else sold that, to me, would not be just an overpriced, poor substitute.

So everybody - keep slamming the car - it only makes it cheaper for me to buy them!

tjc78 · April 2007

"I'd take a head on in the Grand Marquis over it's competitors any day"

Does it really have any? The only car I consider a competitor to the GM is the Lucerne. The GM is just an outdated design. It hasn't changed in years. The only thing different on an '06 from a '92 (besides cosmetics) is the rack and pinion steering. The roots of the car go back to the 70s.

My Grandfather has an '04 Ultimate that I drive occasionally. The car is not as large inside as my Avalon (esp. in the rear) and the engine is a little noisy and rough compared to the 3.5 in my Av. The ride is good, but handling is so-so.

I understand the appeal of the GM it has a nice heavy old fashioned feel going down the road. It is isolated and that is exactly what the majority of its owners want. However, they won't ever be able to appeal to the masses anymore without some serious updating.

joe97 · April 2007

No cars are bulletproof PERIOD. Not Nissan, not Hyundai, not Toyota, etc...

This is what you called bulletproof?

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/04/009648.html

joe97 · April 2007

The problem is that you don't really know what the long-term reliability is on these cars, because IMO they haven't been making "decent" cars long enough. I'm not stupid, my gut tells me that the '06 and up Sonatas and Azeras are good cars. However, you never really know until years down the road whether a car is any good or not. Considering how expensive cars are and how much I depend on mine, I just am not willing to take a chance on the Koreans yet. They're just too new at the "big league car game".

The Hyundai Sonata, for example, is reliable going back a few generations, not just the current one.

In my case, I just buy what I've had good luck with, and nobody I personally know has ever bought a dud Nissan. They've all hit the 100,000 mile and up club with zero serious issues.

A lot of cars by all makers nowadays are well-built, quality, durable and reliable. Just as much you can say everyone you know (very small population sample) has had no trouble with their cars, I can say the same with everyone I know (again with a small population sample) has had no trouble with their cars (you can fill in whichever automaker you'd like.

joe97 · April 2007

In fact I think your Azera's transmission is made by Aisin, though I wouldn't swear to it.

That's not a fact, the Azera's tranny is not made by Aisin. As a matter of fact, the Veracruz's is. And, Aisin is in effect owned by, wait for it, wait for it...Toyota

My guess is it's the same reason I won't buy a Korean car, their reliability is just too much of an unknown at this point.

The I would guess CR went way out of their way to give the Azera top predicted reliability ratings in the class. They must have been crazy

hardhawk · April 2007

Is that any model from any of the named manufacturers? Will the contest sponsor pay the income tax on the prize?

captain2 · April 2007

on the Avalon, you cannot even change the oil yourself
WRONG, do it myself every 3000 miles or so whether it needs it or not. Yes, it is a replaceable element cartridge filter that turns out to be slightly more difficult but neater to replace, has been used in many many cars and trucks for years and years. An environmentally friendly improvement, IMO, something which I wouldn't expect somebody still driving back in the 70s to comprehend?
Ford shutdown the TC plant (in Ohio, if I remember right) BTW and was planning on discontinuing that car, but I think the cabbies in NYC revolted, they reconsidered - moved that relabeling operation to the CV/GM plant in where? Canada, of course. Of all cars not to be American, one of the last bastions of 'American' automaking 'prowess' is not even made in this country - a situation further aggravated, I believe, by those gas hog V8s - many of which are made in Mexico. Bottom line, put as many Americans out of work as you can, buy a Grand Marquis - chances are you did better in that respect, buying your wife her Toyota.

imidazol97 · April 2007

In another discussion only 40% of Toyos are made in US. More of Honda's sales are made here than Toyo, but Toyo advertisements have been effective making people think they are manufacturing the most in US.

captain2 · April 2007

numbers can play tricks - 40% of what - Toyotas worldwide production? 40% of Toyota WW production certainly much much higher than GM/Ford/DCs US production combined?

jsylvester · April 2007

Who said anything about where the car was built? Since it was mentioned, the engine was made in Romeo, MI and the transmission in Sharonville, OH. The seats were made by Lear just down the road from the plant - the rear differential was made in the United States.

On my wife's Toyota, it was assembled in Canada, but the engine and transmission were both imported from Japan. The only thing made in the United States was the paper that made up the sales contract. I know the engine was made in Japan, because when Toyota rebuilt the top end of it under warranty (piston slap issue in the early 1.8 liter VVT engines), one reason we got to use a free Camry for a week was the wait on parts.

I never said I'd not buy a Toyota, I just said I find FWD unibody designs inferior for what I look for in a car. Personally, there are things I like about Toyota - in fact we are considering a Pontiac Vibe (used, but basically a Toyota) to replace my wife's car. Unfortunately she wants something bigger, and I won't let her drive my 67 Galaxie XL convertible.

If the Mercury is a gas hog, my wife's Corolla is too. I get around 19 mpg - her Corolla gets around 28 mpg - not bad for a car that was rated 29/37

It also eats tires because it is FWD. But it is a Toyota, so that means it was blessed by the hand of the almighty.

captain2 · April 2007

assuming you are talking about the CR 07 Auto issue - and not exactly the way I read it - the Azera showing to have the best FIRST year reliability. Predicted reliability was covered in a separate article and depending on time span had Toyota, Honda and Nissan easily finishing 1,2,3, in that order - well ahead of the US brands, of course, and Hyundai which finished only marginally better than the American brands over a longer term.

pat · April 2007

to find our way back to the actual sedans.

louiswei · April 2007

I know many topics that we discussed were purely subjective, but to say that...

A modern FWD unibody design is inferior to what CV/GM have?

WOW!!!

captain2 · April 2007

It also eats tires because it is FWD
that's why we rotate tires - while I'll agree that any car with 60%+ of its weight over its drive wheels will 'eat' the tires on that 'axle', the wear differential is also likely more because the rears in the FWD are doing that much less. Overall a set of tires, properly rotated, should not get 'eaten' any faster in FWD or RWD.

joe97 · April 2007

See below. You'd have to remind me because my computer has been acting up; I believe I mentioned in my post, relevant to this discussion, Azera was tops in the class in predicted reliablity.

captain2 · April 2007

again, the Azera has (unfortunately) only been out a year and as you note has shown some rather extra ordinary results for that one year only - see the little asterisk next to the Azera? This is not the chart from the CR article I was talking about, it would be one that shows what is happening to these cars up to 10 years down the road. Don't think it is necessarily logical to assume that the Azera will continue getting these high grades given Hyundai's more established history of mediocrity.

plekto · April 2007

Three things are in the GM's favor, though:

1: The CV/GM has the lowest cradle-to-grave(dust to dust) cost ecologically of any large car.
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Cost%20Per%20Mile%20by%20Segment%20- Model.xls

1.377 - 1.496(actually it's about 1.0 after rebates, since 17-18K is easily doable) An Avalon is 1.986. The Prius... 2.865.

The energy cost is a paltry 1.377

2: It can be had for $17-18K. That's an amazing amount less money you spend for insurance, interest, and registration.

3:Old is good in a nice way as well, because repairs are silly cheap. It's one of the least expensive vehicles that you can own long-term and it's not a tin can.

tjc78 · April 2007

"because repairs are silly cheap"

OK, tell that to the guy who is going down the road with the back end on the ground because the airbags or pump have failed. Not cheap at all! I know there is a conversion to springs but how many average drivers do that?

For sake of argument I just have one question about the GM. Why, if it is such a better car than the others in this comparison, does Ford have to offer insane rebates to sell it?

captain2 · April 2007

again a lesson in false economies - just because something is cheap initially, does not necessarily mean it remains cheap. Using the 2005 models, the base GM GS (your 18k 'special') and a base Avalon XL (at a $24k purchase price - which is invoice with no rebates of course)), the Avalon retains exactly the same 6k difference in value today. Source: kbb.com running the numbers at trade-in values. So you can sell your GM at this point for $11k or that Avalon for 17. And yes the extra interest cost on investing that extra 6k, is covered almost to the penny, on your 19 mpg vs. my 27. You can talk all you want about how cheap a CV/GM is to repair, but over a normal 3-5 year period of ownership (39k miles) those repair costs should be minimal or non existent in either case., driving that Avalon, in this case, does NOT cost any more NET - although it should, than driving that GM. Check out Intellichoice TCO if you would like, the Avalon shown actually cheaper, although - to be fair - I don't believe all of Ford's tendencies to give the silly things away initially price wise is accurately reflected. In any case, can't believe that the American autobuyer is not smart enough to understand that cheap (up front) is not necessarily good because there certainly is no comparison between the 2 cars. For my part, I would happy to pay even a coupla hundred/month extra for a car that is safer, much more powerful/economical, and more comfortable - but even that turns out not to be the case. Now if your really want to drive that GM for 10 years or so, you do have a point, but somehow I just can't imagine being 'stuck' in a vehicle like that for that period of time, not to mention a real possibility that gas may be $5-6/gallon by then.

captain2 · April 2007

this a good question, a base GM stickers at $25k, invoices at $23.5, can easily exceed $30 with any sort of options on it at all (LS) - but sells at $18k? Supply and demand in action, I guess; the reason for the crappy resale values; and just perhaps a reason why Ford continues to lose its arss trying to sell cars. Other than a pick up truck, the CV/GM is the cheapest vehicle on the planet - bought by the pound - and worth every (discounted) penny of it.

captain2 · April 2007

that back end on the ground? check the trunk, you'll probably find a few hundred pounds of sand back there so the owner can drive the thing in the winter! Works out great for gas mileage as well

tjc78 · April 2007

The funny thing is that Ford puts absolutely no money into the car so even with huge incentives they probably make a profit on them.

tjc78 · April 2007

Just what the GM needs more weight. LOL

captain2 · April 2007

I may be mistaken, but I believe, that if you only consider direct material and labor costs, the cost of building any car for anybody is only about half what you pay for it. It's when you start adding in overhead things like executive salaries, pension fund payments, employee buy-outs, utility bills etc that it becomes a losing proposition. Read somewhere that GM lost $2500.00 (in '05) on every car they sold, a number that happens to equal how much they are obligated to contribute PER CAR to their employee's pension funds. Ford uses (and borrows) all its money currently to pay their employees not to work and close plants, the last thing they could do is spend any money actually updating things like the GM/CV.

plekto · April 2007

A few other things:
The GM is old-school technology and is overbuilt for taxi and police use. As such, it's pretty hard to break major components unless you abuse it to death. Things that break - trust me, that GM tranny isn't $3500 like the Avalon's. And who really cares about what it cost to build? If Ford wants to give these away at cost, who am I to complain?

In addtion, it's a lot less money out of your pocket per month, which means for the same payment on the Avalon, you can chop off 1-2 years on the GM. Two years less interest, same payment - own it in 3-4 years outright. That frees up money for your lifestyle quicker as well(resale aside)

Basically, 3 years on a GM after rebates equals 5 years on an Avalon, with the same monthly payment(assuming a typical $2000 downpayment). Me? I'd consider being out from under the loan and interest a couple of years sooner to be a wise decision. The gas mileage difference and such - like you said, it's a wash. Just one is looking at $18K loaned versus $28K(and that's assuming you can find a striped-down base Avalon).

joe97 · April 2007

It's flattering the Azera received the best predicted reliability in the class, first year or not. Actually, a bunch of first year new models received scores from CR, which speaks volume about the newly built vehicles.

louiswei · April 2007

I rather spend 5 years in an Avalon (and pay more) than spend 1 year in that ancient POS.

tjc78 · April 2007

Ooh... that's a little rough. While I throw shots at the GM/CV I can't say that its a POS. I just don't know why anyone would buy one over the the Avalon/Azera. They both offer more interior room, more power, better FE, and better resale. I know the GM offers a front bench seat, but we all know that is useless, and probably not the safest seat for a child in the event of an accident. I guess the GM/CV can tow, but thats what SUV's and trucks are for. Bottom line, if you are looking for cheap "big" transportation buy a GM if you want a refined driving experience go for an Avalon/Azera.

captain2 · April 2007

yes it does, and portends of better things to come from that 'little' Korean automaker - if only our own automakers could do what Hyundai is doing, maybe we wouldn't be rambling on and on about things like the CVs/GMs, because "Detroit" really would have something to brag about...

captain2 · April 2007

the Avalon XL 'stripper'will not cost $28k - more like $24 or 25, and worth every penny of now and 5 years from now. Finding that 'stripper' may indeeed be more difficult as you note. That's what happens when a mfgr. has any car in high demand.
Did notice this AM, the dealer come-on ads showing a $6000 (SIX THOUSAND!) rebate on a $23k GM (demo), ought to tell us something don't you think. The day you find something like that on any Toyota or Honda product will likely be the same day that either of them follows Ford into bankruptcy!

imidazol97 · April 2007

>the Avalon XL 'stripper'will not cost $28k

>That's what happens when a mfgr. has any car in high demand

The MSRP is $26875 and $27495 with shipping. If a car's in high demand they go above MSRP or below. You can't have it both ways here--discounted $3-4K or in great demand.

Me thinks they're not as popular as at first when they weren't building the needed quantity and they were hard to get so people went into panic mode.

>dealer come-on ads showing a $6000 (SIX THOUSAND!) rebate on a $23k GM (demo), ought to tell us something don't you think

Uhmmmmmm, yes it tells me it's a used car with miles on it. I wouldn't buy it with a few thousand miles on it and pay new car prices for it. That price has no relevance to your logic. Sorry 'bout that.

louiswei · April 2007

Let's be serious here...

Unless a car is RED HOT, like right after a new model hits the showrooms, no car will be selling at MSRP or around that. That's for both domestics & imports.

Now a day, mainstream communters (i.e from Toyota, Honda, Chevy, Ford...) are all selling at well below MSRP with different degrees. As long as the dealers aren't dumping them at thousands below invoice then I don't see a point calling a car "slow seller". As matter of fact I would consider a car "hot seller" if the actual transaction price is $500 to a grand above invoice and I believe that's the case for the most Toyotas and Hondas. Doubt that's the case for the likes of Chevy Malibu and Impala though.

captain2 · April 2007

the Avalon when it first came out really was (and still is to some degree) about the only Toyota product that could even be halfway construed as having at least some of the characteristics of a 'sports sedan', it is THAT quick. And improved FE over the old Camry based 200 hp model. Sales of the 2004 were plugging along at about 3-4000/month, the 05 hit the ground running at closer to 10000/month. In early/summer 05 they did indeed sell close to sticker, were difficult to find without price pumping distributor add-ons, and damn near impossible to find on dealer lots. Many owners of 05s had to 'order' them. Exactly the definition of a high demand and high quality automobile.
Since then Toyota has caught up a little and the actual price paid has been getting to within a few hundred of invoice simply because, I think, the same drivetrain is available now in the Camry and ES. If somebody like Ford or GM could even do that (produce a car that people actually WANT), not have to rebate or discount, they would certainly not be doing what they are doing from a pricing perspective - but the sad fact is that they can't - they don't make anything even close to the same car. So maybe demand has subsided a little bit, but in terms of market value (and resale values) it is best in class and has yet to receive anything other than rave reviews from every automotive/consumer mag in existence. Easily the standard to which the other cars in this group should aspire - 'Detroit' should be ashamed that it is a company like Hyundai that can manage to do that.

As far as 6 grand rebate goes, this, apparently, is available on 07 GMs (that don't happen to be demos) as well, the car I was talking about in the ad probably never existed, as many of those 'come-on' ad 'examples' don't. The fact that a GM or any car is rebated 20-30% is definitely relevant as it would indicate the depths to which Ford, in this case, has to go to get somebody to consider an inferior and outdated automobile.

louiswei · April 2007

Grill - rip off from Nissan
Head light - rip off from Acura
Front fascial - rip off from Lexus
Side - rip off from Infiniti
Rear light - rip off from Aston Martin

Overall it looks good. Got to give credit to Hyundai by ripping off so many elements from many brands and pieces them together to make a graceful looking car.

But come on Hyundai, when would you start your own design scheme and stop ripping off from others? Until then, it'll still be considered as 2nd tier.

However, the Azera is one original looking Hyundai and good looking too. The photos don't do Azera justice, one has to see it in person to appreciate how graceful looking it is. I would even go to extreme and say that Azera is one of the few "classic" looking sedans left on the market today.

Oh by the way, the Veracruz looks like a RX inside and out.

allmet33 · April 2007

Honestly...I don't have a problem with it. I actually felt the front grille was a rip from the new Camry.

Regardless of what each part of the car looks like, as a whole...it's a beautiful car. What's even better...it's targeted for the mid $30K's!!!

Don't quite know how original the Azera looks when you pull it up next to a Benz S-class. The lines and curves are eerily similar. I've also had folks say that my Azzy looks like a BMW 730i too.

Look at how many years the Camry and Maxima looked similar to each other. It's not a new concept by any stretch of the imagination.

The Veracruz is a very viable crossover option to be considered with the Outlook/Acadia/Enclave and CX-9.

captain2 · April 2007

louis- how many cars out there are truly truly unique from a styling perspective? Even my Avalon takes 'Banglesque' cues from the rear, and Lexus cues from the front. Unless you are, of course, Chrysler, which has pretty much always been way out in right field, and produces these love-it/hate-it things like the 300. Most mfgrs. aren't going to take the same sort of chances on such a 'polarizing' design, and will 'copy' what people have already shown to like.

tjc78 · April 2007

When I first bought my '06 I had a legitimate hard time believing that it would get better FE than my '03. But after a year of driving it actually betters it by 2 MPG. Incredible considering the HP difference. What I like about the car is, even my softer riding XLS model can be fun to drive. Definitely some body roll but more than enough control for anything I dare to do with it. I am suprised the Avalon's sales are a little down but as you pointed out the 3.5 is now spanning the line and most likely is the cause.

imidazol97 · April 2007

>produce a car that people actually WANT

You seem to say that mantra often. Perhaps your opinion of what other people should want and what they do want differ?
People are buying GM and Ford cars every day.

>the same drivetrain is available now in the Camry and ES

It's nice to see someone state that the 3 cars are based the same. Early on people tried to say the Avalon was competely different.

imidazol97 · April 2007

>produce a car that people actually WANT

You seem to say that mantra often. Perhaps your opinion of what other people should want and what they do want differ?
People are buying GM and Ford cars every day.

>the same drivetrain is available now in the Camry and ES

It's nice to see someone state that the 3 cars are based the same. Early on people tried to say the Avalon was competely different.

> As far as 6 grand rebate goes, this, apparently,

Your "apparently" indicates you don't really believe it and I wouldn't either unless it's a demonstrator, program car, etc., meaning used to me. That's probably a comeon ad. And they help cheapen the image for any car no matter which store is using them.

captain2 · April 2007

you're taking things out of context again!

my opinion of what people want is unimportant, sales statistics and to some degree the prices that these cars command are indicative of what they are actually buying!
The Camry and the ES are the same car, same WB, platform, drivetrain. The Avalon is the one that is larger and that preceded the other two by a year or two and remains different. And yes when the Avalon came out in early 05 it shared nothing with the Camry or the ES at that time.

tjc78 · April 2007

"It's nice to see someone state that the 3 cars are based the same. Early on people tried to say the Avalon was competely different. "

The '05 Avalon was a complete redesign the ES and Camry now are based off that platform/drivetrain.

The Previous (00 to 04) Avalons were stretched Camrys. The ES has always been a Camry underneath.

tjc78 · April 2007

Wow! we both jumped in that one quick!

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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