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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    given my distaste for car dealers - I might even go so far as to tell you that ALL their ads are come-ons! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Sometimes I wonder if Toyota might have been better off naming the Avalon something like a 'Crown'. There remains this misconception that the Avalon is still an optioned out Camry?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    The redesign was such a change for the car that renaming it may have been a good thing. Although the Camry and Avalon share many things, IMO, they are very different vehicles.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Captain, you know I love the Azera, but what is this with beating up on the Avalon in this group. It's a great car and hugely different from a Camry. You can't go wrong with either the Avalon or the Azera. For those that don't want a Hyundai for whatever reason, the Avalon is the clear choice for a large sedan, unless you need a police car, with bench seats.

    Two years from now, we will be sparring about the Genesis (or whatever it will be called) and the Lexus or Infinity. The people who buy BMW's and MB's will never look at anything else, even if Audi makes more sense.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    jaymagic...you're right, no matter how good a product Hyundai may put out, there are some that just won't give it any credit.

    Right now, Hyundai is hyping the Genesis to be it's competitor against the E-Class and 5-Series. That's a tall order to fill. However, that goal is attainable...especially based on what they've shown with the Azera.

    People can say what they want about Hyundai vehicles, but until they've gotten in one and driven it...they won't truly understand. Anyone that stops me and asks me about my Azera, I tell them...don't go in there and test drive one unless you're ready to buy one. You will find it very hard to not want to get it when you see how well it's put together, how it feels sitting in it, how it drives and most of all...what you get for the money.

    One thing I find funny...folks talk about how the Avalon is sportier in handling than the Azera (which is true), but I have NEVER seen anyone drive an Avalon in a sporty way! If we were in Europe, both cars would be considered touring sedans and both are QUITE capable in every sense of the term.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    jay- haven't read anything yet 'beating up' on an Avalon, there is simply nothing to 'beat on'. Think the problems that some folks have with it are those folks that value their purchases by the 'discount' they got on it, or the ultimate price they paid - not understanding perhaps that there is some truth to the adage 'you get what you pay for'.

    Would have a hard time believing that even Hyundai thinks that it can successfully target Lexus LSs/GSs, Infinity Ms etc. with the Genesis. Can imagine that Hyundai would like to be considered the 'luxury' Korean brand leaving Kia for the masses - but really, Lexus/Infiniti? GM is supposedly coming out with a whole new line of RWD V8s for 09 - maybe more likely Hyundai's target?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...for now, Hyundai has stated that it's goal is the European offerings. However, I know you've seen the new Lexus add offering up the new 438 HP Hybrid they have...WHOA!!!

    First 8 speeds and a car that can parallel park itself (given the right parameters) and now 438 HP packed into a hybrid model!!! Lexus (Toyota) is definitely showing what it means to push the envelope!!!

    If Hyundai falls a bit short of it's target for the Genesis, I think they'll still hit a bullseye because it is an offering that will give what it seems most of the Americans want...size, power, appeal and technology. If it has decent FE, then the fact that it will be offered at the mid $30K range will make it hard to ignore.

    At 300+ HP, the closest competetior for that, price-wise would be a Hemi powered Charger, 300 or Magnum (excluding the SRT-8). I mean...anything made by Lexus, Benz, BMW or Infinity will cost you a minimum of the mid $40K range just to get that kind of HP & size.

    I know Pontiac is dropping the G8 which in GT badging will possess a 362 HP V-8 and will be priced between the mid $30K's to maybe $40K. It too offers the power, size and appeal, but...will it have everything else it needs. I certainly hoped they learned from their failed GTO.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    remember when Toyota came out with the Lexus LS back in the early 90s? Toyota already had an established and great reputation for building great cars, they come out with a new name, underprice the BMWs/MBs at the time, and delivered, of course, exactly what the market expected. A huge success complete with new dealerships that would do everything but wipe your nose for you. Would suggest to you that if Hyundai wants to compete in that market, they should try to do the same thing. Not sure that Hyundai has either the technical expertise or finances to do what you are suggesting, and that they shouldn't concentrate on what they are showing is easily done, making those "American' manufacturers look silly!
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I guess everyone forgets how the Japanese "copied everything," not only in the auto market, but everywhere else in years' past. Not only aesthetics, but "nuts and bolts" items, such as SU and Solex carbs (Mikuni), and everywhere else mechanically. Hyundai is certainly not the first to do this, nor will it be the last.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    besides which, the 05 Avalon (at 280hp at the time) was the same size and would outaccelerate the Lexus LS430 back then - for $20k+ less. Does that make it even equal to it - NOT!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you leave out something very important - sure, they 'copied everything', you leave out 'improved everything' and not only the Japanese but now also the Koreans, the current crop of sedans available to all of us, being prime examples. And while we're at it, why not 'let' the Chinese come in an do the same thing? There really should not be a reason in the world why we can't develop and build competitive cars in our own country - it is a business we used to 'own'.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I don't think Hyundai is going after the LS (yet). The GS is a different story. I can remember when Lexus and Infinity "went after" Bimmers and MB's. People said no way. Now the build quality on the Lexus and Infinity cars is much better than Bimmers or MB's (at least in the last few years). I would take an Avalon or an Azera over many of the way more expensive tiny 3 series German cars right now (not the M's naturally, lol).

    But, like those that will not go after a Korean car, I think there are still a number of people that will not look outside Germany for a sport/luxury sedan, just based on history and brand cache. Unfortunately, we don't have Autobahns in the US. so sustained 155+mph driving is not a very real possibility. But traveling in a VERY capable lux vehicle is an everyday yearning. I think the coming Hyundai will offer a very tempting package for well under $40K out the door. And, I am willing to wait and see what the US can offer with the various zeta platform vehicles. Two years is an eternity in technology.

    I am not pro Hyundai or pro Korean. I am for the best deal on the best car I can afford, regardless of country or brand. If it is a US make or MADE (including just put together) so much the better. The better our economy the happier I am. PS, if the car I picked happened to be a hybrid or save me a few bucks and help the environment, even better.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I don't know about improving everything...there's nothing technologically superior about the 3.8 V-6 used in the Azera.

    The U.S. can still crank out power and has been able to with engines like the Hemi. However, the foreign makers are better at producing engines that offer power along with good FE (especially Toyota/Lexus & Honda/Acura).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I have to agree jaymagic, not the LS (that's got 400+ HP, not to mention the price tag), but definitely...the GS is attainable. Power-wise...it'll be up there with the 430, price-wise...it'll still beat the 330!!!

    Same goes for the Infinity M's...power-wise it's up there with them, but will sell for less than the G.

    Hyundai hit a huge mark with what they did in the Azera. The way they were able to make a value based sedan look, feel and act like it's worth way more than it really is. I really do believe that Hyundai can pull it off.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    BTW, listened to a Hyundai press conference and the "Genesis" will be released in Korea at least 6 months before late 08 US delivery. That should help with quality control on a new model.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Isn't that how they've done all their models? I know the XG was out there before it showed up here. I'm pretty sure the Azera was out there, before it was dropped on our shores. I can also say that the Azera was delivered to some at the California HQ and given to select personnel to drive and give feedback on for a few months before they showed up in the show rooms of America.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I am not sure about the Azera, I think it was released in Korea about the same time as US. I know the Korean version had more technology in it (NAV, etc.). I seem to recall they had the early production "clunk" in Korea, too. At any rate, I think the six months lag time will be very helpful in bringing a car to market that has to be "right" the first time.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    Releasing at home for a time lets them iron out the bugs. When it comes here it's viewed as new but never developes those inevitable first-year-model problems. Hence it improves the image of the company. That's what the Japanese makers had done with some models. It actually misleads us here into thinking they never have teething problems with new models! grin. :)

    Good technique, no doubt about it.

    The Genesis is beautiful. I just saw the MT spread on it with pictures and a friend had sent pictures yesterday. Really nice shaping without the slant-eye look on headlights and taillights.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...I know GM does it to an extent. I mean...my wife went to the GM plant this past winter and she commented on how they were testing an '09 model vehicle already.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1652
    Most Hyundai buyers are unwilling to pay for too much research and design. We want a good reliable ride for not too many bucks.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Please say you made that statement with tongue in cheek! :surprise:
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    I get 25 MPG on the highway with my 340 HP Hemi. Pretty darn good economy for that kind of power in a heavy American (built in Canada and owned in Germany)station wagon!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Considering the Lexus LS430 can pull off 27 mpg with 380 HP V-8...yeah, that's good.
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    Considering Chrysler/Dodge offerings are half the price of the Lexus, I'd say it's better than good!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...to a degree, but look at how heavy the Lexus is compared to the Dodge and look at all the technology you get with the Lexus too.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Considering LS460's V8 puts out more horsepower, pulls a heavier car than the Hemi does and being more FE, I'd say that's wayyyyyyy better than good.
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    Those of us who live and work outside the beltway have to live on a budget. I'll gladly give up 2 MPG and some technology for the $30,000 minimum I'll save on the Mopar product. If I had unlimited funds, I'd have a new LS460L sitting in my garage. In the real world, I can parallel park myself and, while I could pay for the Lexus, my children would really rather go to college! :shades:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Dude, nobody cross-shops a LS with 300/Charger anyway. They are in the same class as Avalon, Azera and Maxima (except these are FWD).

    I don't think budget is one of the main concerns for LS owners...
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    You are very correct. I only commented because someone earlier was talking about how only imported cars could combine power and economy. Since the Mopar cars are made in Canada, perhaps they qualify as imported. They sure do combine power and economy for those in the mainstream sedan class.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the GS330 long gone now - replaced by 300hp+ GS350 - a mere economical V6 - hmmm - wonder where that engine comes from. Any V8 whether its from this Genesis you are talking about, or a Dodge /300 Hemi or an Impala SS will drop too many dollars at the gas pump. The IS350 (3450 lbs)will run well down into the 5s 0-60 with that V6, haven't seen a test on the GS (3700 lbs) yet, but based on HP/lb. the GS should be marginally slower, about what the Avalon is.
    Hyundai as well as the US mfgrs. would do well not to attack HP deficiencies with displacement and extra cylinders or even air pumps but a little more sophistication than what you have in not only Hyundai's 3.3/3.8 but also GMs 3.6, Chryslers 3.5 and Fords 3.5. I would expect a technologically defining V6 (something that even surpasses the Toyota 2GR)to be coming from Honda soon. Now that would be a company that KNOWS how to build smaller engines....
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and 25 mpg on the highway is good? The 300C noted to have the most outrageously overrated (the hybrids are worse) EPA ratings in the business, overall FE supposedly in the neighborhood of 15 or 16. The car is an absolute hoot to drive, and it feels 'right', but a helluva a price to pay?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The thing is, that the Avalon is almost 10K more out the door thanks to registration and taxes than a Grand Marquis. Is the GM better? No. Is it better than a simmilarly priced Corolla? Without a doubt.

    And, actually, they drive fairly well if you get the handling package.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    Yesterday while walking my dog I heard a sound come from a car that I haven't heard in a very long time. Mind you, I haven't owned anything remotely "foreign" branded since my '89 Ford Probe GT Turbo. But, back to my point...pulling away from the stop sign, a loud engine knock coming from a one of those superiorly engineered cars y'all keep bragging about. It was an Infiniti I35 or I30...whichever is the rebadged Maxima. I find it rather peculiar though since I haven't heard that sound in so long that when I finally do, it comes from one of these vehicles. Now, before any of you foreign car proponents start assuming it must be some very old, "beater" car, it isn't. I see the car on a regular basis, it's owned by my neighbor who lives two doors down, she always keeps it clean and lives with a "motor head" who likely ensures her maintenance is taken care of. I'm currently driving my sixth American nameplated car, none of which ever cracked the top ten in reliability according to CU (to the best of my knowledge) and I've never heard a sound like that come from any of them. But, I'm just lucky I guess.

    As for the poor FE in Chrysler's MDS V-8s, it could be partly due to limited experience by the people driving them. With GM's similar DOD system, once I learned how keep it engaged, my fuel economy improved. Also, you have to keep in mind that the EPA numbers are based on speeds much lower than the average person drives. At 55-60 mph, I can achieve the EPA average in my V-8 powered Impala. Above 70 mph, it's less likely that the DOD system will be engaged so FE drops off. I expect the same is true in the Chrysler products.

    So, do the import V-6s have a FE advantage? Sure. But would I prefer driving one of them over my silky smooth and sexy sounding V-8? No way. To each his own and I'm glad I have the choice. For those of you that prefer the the import V-6s, good for you. But, you should really consider restraining yourselves when it comes to passing judgment on those of us who prefer something different just because it doesn't match up to what you believe is the best choice.

    Variety is the spice of life. If everything was the same, we wouldn't have the ability to appreciate the differences. If we weren't driving our "inferior" cars you wouldn't feel so superior with yours now, would ya? ;)
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    My 2005 Dodge Magnum RT is the station wagon version of the 300C. I regularly get 25 MPG on the highway and I do think it is good mileage for a big V8 with loads of power. You are correct that it is a hoot to drive and does feel right.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    As for the poor FE in Chrysler's MDS V-8s, it could be partly due to limited experience by the people driving them. With GM's similar DOD system, once I learned how keep it engaged
    based on a limited test drive, I found it impossible to keep a 300C at a constant 65-70 mph on a FLAT road on 4 cylinders. The DOD engagement/disengagement is granted almost invisible, which is good, but I think the problem really is that what amounts to 170hp and 195 lb/ft is not nearly enough for a 4000 lb car even to maintain a reasonable highway speed. Same sort of problem with the 3.8 Lucerne, not so much on the flat but certainly on even gentle inclines. If you are telling me that you have to 'learn' to drive your car like a fuel economy competition (staying off the accelerator to intentionally keep load off the engine) - then I tell you keep your V8s and this gimmicky DOD (which has a checkered past anyway)- or I could simply drive one of these higher tech V6s normally and still get superior FE.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as I have said before, as good as 'Detroit' is at making V8s, the 300/Charger Hemi is the type of sedan they should concentrate on. What I don't understand about DC is why MB doesn't just put their 3.5 V6 from the E350 in the 300 - in that form it would make for a competitively powerful and economical sedan. Think that as gas figures to exceed $4/gallon this coming summer, Hemi sales will drop thru the floor.
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    What I don't understand about DC is why MB doesn't just put their 3.5 V6 from the E350 in the 300

    If they were to do that, CU would then rate Chrysler as the lowest in reliability and you would be on here telling everyone how terribly built the car was. Of course, it would only serve Chrysler right since it's their fault that MB can't build cars right anymore. ;)
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    The DOD engagement/disengagement is granted almost invisible, which is good, but I think the problem really is that what amounts to 170hp and 195 lb/ft is not nearly enough for a 4000 lb car even to maintain a reasonable highway speed

    Where do you get this information?
    I have the 06 Charger sales brochure and in the specifications section there is a graph that shows HP/Torque for the Hemi.
    At 65-70 mph you would around 2000 rpms and the graph shows
    140HP/340 lb/ft of torque at that speed.
    At 1200 rpm the Hemi has 300 lb/ft.
    Not bad, don't you think?
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    What I don't understand about DC is why MB doesn't just put their 3.5 V6 from the E350 in the 300 - in that form it would make for a competitively powerful and economical sedan.

    Why would they? It costs more than the DC 3.5L and the numbers aren't that much better.
    The DC 3.5L has 250 HP/250 lb/ft and thats with mid-grade.

    Engine 3,498-cc DOHC 24-valve V-6. High-pressure die-cast alloy cylinder block.

    Net power 268 hp @ 6,000 rpmNet torque 258 lb-ft @ 2,400 - 5,000 rpmCompression ratio 10.7:1Fuel requirement Premium unleaded gasoline, 91 pump octane.
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    When I rented a 300C for a weekend there were times when you wanted to accelerate moderately but couldn't.
    It was either really fast where it pins you back or too little.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Taxes, regulations, wages, benefits, lazy workers, executive salaries, lawsuits... Lots of reasons the US can't develop and build competetive cars.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    half the cylinders = half the hp/torque @ rated max rpm? The higher torque figure you quote (340 @ 2000)) is impressive but, I 'm guessing not available when the engine is operating on 4 cyls. Large displacement engines, particulary, pushrod V8s, will almost always have bunches of torque. 140 HP, however, is sorry in a 4000 lb+ car and perhaps the reason, that it needs all 8 cylinders (full of gas) to hold the speeds I mentioned (on 4 cylinders). The behavior then surprises me, it is torque that has a lot to do with any car being able to hold speeds, although in that car just a gentle nudge back into 8 cyl mode, get the engine to rev a little, buy some stock in Mobil and you are off like a rocket. Why not a V8/6/4, then, something Cadillac has a disastrous flirtation with back in the 90s.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    agreed, but Toyota, in particular is making more money than Bill Gates (well, maybe not) and they, as well as Honda/Nissan/Hyundai, all are dealing with about all those issues, except for possibly labor issues, and largely doing so in this country!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    same thing I experienced on a simple test drive, an all-on or all-off behavior - thinking this is because of the DOD.
    That said that all-on is something isn't it?
  • altazeraaltazera Member Posts: 51
    According to my dealer, Hyundai is offering the large rebate (aka. trading dollars) on the Azera because of the slow sales in 2006. My experience from shopping around, is that the Azera is a nuisance model for the dealers and they would much rather put effort into selling Sonatas.

    I also suspect the slowing of Azera sales might be due to the tire problems and the right front end "clunk" problem that they are failing to acknowledge and address. Many people looking at cars in this class are used to better service and customer relations. Hyundai does not seem to be interested in either.

    despite these problems I am still a happy Azera owner... but I am tempted to remove all Hyundai logos from the car!

    Brian
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    Yes, the power of the Hemi is impressive.
    I am not sure if the DOD is causing the sluggishness when accelerating. If you have it in autostick DOD disengages.
    The electronic throttle response is probably causing this all-on or all-off behaviour.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    maybe there is a difficulty getting the consumer to 'understand' a Hyundai product with a $30k+ sticker regardless of what they actually can be bought for? Don't remove your Hyundai labels BTW, it really is a nice looking car in its own right. Part of this 'Korean' car perception problem that I mention frequently, one that it will take several years for Hyundai to overcome.
    Sonata sales, from what I understand have also slowed largely becuase fleet sales are down, but it would make no sense for the dealers push the buyer into a Sonata, the Azera should be a higher profit sale.
    Was not aware of the Azera 'quality' issues that you mention as this has yet to be reflected in any reliability ratings that I know of - but it is a new design and those things are more likely to happen. Even my 05 Avalon started with some 'un-Toyota-like' teething problems (steering column 'clunk' and an oil leak at the timing chain cover), which were corrected by the 2nd year. Of more concern (if I owned the Azera) , the continued discounting of a car that shouldn't need to be - over a normal 3 to 5 year period of ownership such things can negate the competitive price advantage the Azera obviously has.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    I think you may be right. When I was looking at the Azera, I had a few people say to me: 30K for a Hyundai? Are you nuts? My response was that it was one hell of a car, and had Toyota not done what it did with the Avalon there would be one in my driveway. What will be interesting is the Genesis, I know that in 2 years when my lease is up, I will be looking at one.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well that's fine, but FYI the compression ratio for the Toyota is 10.8:1 and it runs fine on regular. It used to be that higher compression ratios would almost always dictate fuel grade, this is not necessarily true anymore with these VVTi systems in the DC (or Toyota) engines. The DC SOHC engine is a good effort, but is not close to the MB 3.5 in terms of refinement/willingness to rev. There is more to an engine than simply HP/torque ratings. And I don't believe that MBs crappy reliability stats has a whole lot to do with their engines, more likely electronic over sophistication and complication.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    now you got me curious, on a 2 year lease, which was cheaper/mo. the Avalon or the Azera? I know it sounds ridiculous, but I wonder if they were actually close???
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