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Comments
Even with the Lucerne and the 500 using underpowered powerplants, the power is still sufficient to merge into traffic safely. Then again, offering an underpowered engine isn't so bad because there are plenty of folks that seem to be scared to push the gas pedal! LOL
It's truly funny to see someone pay $50K+ for a high powered sports car...say a Vette and do the speed limit and watch a $10K sub-compact barrel down the highway at speeds in excess of 80 mph.
well, I guess, this might be where we disagree - but, then again, we both might be just a little spoiled? I drive usually between 4-500 miles per week, and would guess that there are a handful of times (5 or less) that I actually use a good part of the power my Avalon has. To me, that is enough to justify the 268 hp. Could I adjust to a 3.8 or a DT3.0, sure - but not without some wincing.
There are times I have tapped the gas pedal more than a situation actually called for, but like you...the times I've really NEEDED it have been few. It is nice to know it's there though...that much I won't deny!
My '99 Cobra is $840 a year versus $640 a year for my Azera.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
However, there's a new sherriff in town. I was watching Top Gear last night and they pitted a new Mitsubishi Lancer Evo against a Lamborghini Murcielago and even though the Evo had 1/3 the number of cylinders, it was pumping out over 400 bhp and the Lambo couldn't shake it on the track!!! Technology is amazing!
Sorry to get off topic, but I had to share that!!!
And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
I love my Azera!!!
(Quick return to Large Sedans)
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Think GMs problems with being able to do this may be more financial and labor related - they can't produce enough of the engines to use them line wide (the way Toyota and Nissan do), and may be constrained thru labor contracts from closing some of these plants that make the old stuff. Pletko would be disappointed though - it was a 6 speed auto in the one I drove and is subject to a little gear hunting on downshifts, much like many of these new (expensive to fix) 'high tech' trannies.
Clark
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
True, too much production capacity for the old 3.8 and complicated by the fact that GM can't do what they want (or need) to do in terms of closing old plants. Unless, of course, they want to end up doing what Ford did and continues to do - spend beaucoups of money to 'buy-out' their employees, an effect of some rather nasty labor contracts they signed back in the truck/SUV euphoria days.
Odd they have capacity. The 3.8 hasn't been made for years. There has been a 3800 since before 92 IIRC and it has been modified strongly since then. Check some other discussions for a full history of the passing of the 3.8 and the evolution of the 3800 motor. But sometimes people are talking about things that don't exist anymore.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It's obvious you don't have any real knowledge of a car with one in it to think it's still the early V6 unit. Perhaps your definition of what you like is different than some other people's idea of driving in a car without a buzzing high rev motor needing that to develop adequate power for normal driving off a race track.
The 3800s have high mileage and very competent torque at low speeds for "normal" drivers in normal cars. I have found them very high on mileage moving large sedans for my family and traveling as well as quick departures from stop signs and ramps.
"Suppose it becomes a definition of what you consider to be new and improved, doesn't it?"
Yup, it sure does, although I've answered in a more polite tone to help educate you about the 3800 Series III.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
and yes, certainly thanks to some gearing and the relatively high torque characteristics of any pushrod engine that has been around that long, it has proven to be decently reliable and economical despite its native imbalances and ancient technologies. The last Lucerne I drove BTW had the three portholes (meaning the V6) and could not hold top gear on even a slight incline. Annoying in a car that is supposed to be 'near luxury' highway cruiser. Referencing that article, incidentally, that Flint plant is apparently still where all the 3.8s are made, 50 years later.
I don't care if the 3800 is in series 10, its still 50 years old. Its got to go, 200 HP out of such a big motor is a disgrace.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
But I'll continue one more response. My 3800 Series II in my 03 LeSabre does NOT downshift going up and down slopes on Interstate 75 to Tennessee thrugh Kentucky nor on I71 from Cin to Louisville when I wouldn't expect most cars to do so. Oddly going to the Great American Ballpark in Cincy a few times in a friend's X3 I found it was downshifting all the time on I75 Day to Cin. Odd what torque can do and still deliver 31 mpg at 80 mi/hr traveling on those same roads on last trip to Smokey Mountains.
I guess I'm just disgraced to quote your last post.
It appears we disagree.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
not the intention here and I don't think you really believe that either This whole thread started with a comment I made that said that the Lucerne needs to be fitted with the 3.6 DOHC engine and that GM would be well served to use that engine line wide. It is a helluva good effort on GMs part. If you really feel that the 3.8 (in whatever rendition) is adequate in a 3800 lb.+ automobile, then, yes, I guess we simply disagree. As far as the downshifting stuff goes, that would only be personal experience in a Lucerne not a 15 year old LeSabre that weighs maybe 400 lbs. less.
It was over-rated at 205 in the LeSabre.
The 3800 is better than a 4 cylinder and that's about it. It is one of the worst V6 engines sold in the last 5 years. I have a DC 3.5L and it's way more refined than the 3800 in my previous GM.
Too bad we won't be getting the Series IV. :P
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
There's a reason GM uses it - and for a car like the Grand Prix and simmilar, it's perfect. Their mistake was to cram it into the Lucerne, which is too heavy for it.
Also, if you really want to see it fly, just lock out overdrive - problem solved. Way more than enough power this way to handle passing. And no lag as the torque converter disengages and it downshifts. When I drive my mother's car (or I did on my old Buicks) if there was more than about a 5% grade, I immediately locked out overdrive(easy as can be with the shifter on the collumn) and away I went.
The engine is a fantastic choice. But the 3.6 is better, of course. VVT and saving .2L in the process is a wonderful thing. It should be in the base Lucerne for sure.
Shoot, even Consumer Reports, the bastion of all GM and Ford hating, recommends the GM vehicles with the 3.8 in it, new and used. You keep your new, pricey, and prone to break toys - I'll happily take another 3.8. (well I would, but where's the *MANUAL* with that engine? - sigh)
I don't think anyone ever said the 3.8 wasn't reliable.
How much more gas would you use running a 3.8 in third gear at highway speed?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That's not available. The 3800 is available and I'd buy another in a minute. As for the Lucerne, lack of horsepower, balderwash. if I were a boytoy hotrodder with little motors with no mufflers that wind up like sirens, I might think that was "modern." As for now, I'll take the 3800; might even buy a used one with their longevity up to 300K mi easily and with the 4T65E transmissions with no hesitation, flares, no second gear problems needing lube tubes added..., I can expect lots of durable miles. Not even rattles on LeSabres and Lucernes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
01-07-30-014 APR 01 A/T - 4T65E, Delayed Shifts/Flares/Extended Shifts
The service bulletin that was given to me when I experienced delayed shifts at the dealership.
Google "4T65E problems" and you will get lots of pages.
Lots of people say that American cars are much cheaper to fix than German or Asian cars. But I haven't seen it.
GM dealerships rape customers whenever they have the chance.
Same $105/hour labour as Honda, Toyota or whatever.
I know you've been ragging on this for years, but I'll bite and ask you why this would be, if you can accept the fact the CR DOES have its own set of priorities in reliability, FE, and safety -
1) is it because after surveying several million car owners over the years, that some other brands haven't shown consistently better overall reliability than GM and Ford?
2) is it because the degrees of refinement and fit/finish in some other brands can far exceed what GM/F has and has had available for many years now.
3) is it CR has some hidden agenda to destroy the auto industry in this country and is 'on the take' from some other manufacturers.
OR
4) is it because they don't happen to agree with you?
IMO, I believe that questioning CR's objectivity puts you on some really thin ice and has no basis in fact. There is no reason that I could think of that they could 'gain' in any manner, by 'hating' anything whether it be a car or a clothes washer.
Compared to the other cars in the class... yes the Lucerne 3.8 IS underpowered. To get the performance of the Avalon, Max, and Azera (heck, even the '08 500) you must opt for the V8 and suffer at the gas pump.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
As for CR, I made no comment on the worth of their articles and ratings, but just mentioned that as a rule they hate GM cars. Well, except for the ones with the 3800 and 3.6VVT in them. Go figure. For them to like it, it must be a superb car. Kind of like trying to impress a Porsche fanatic with anything made in Japan - it's a tough sell to begin with, so if they think it's good, it's going to be great to the average person.
And the CXS versions of the Lacrosse and Lucerne are very nice for the money. Doubly so a year or two used.
I have not seen those type of labor rates ever here in Texas, nor in Michigan, and yes I get my cars usually serviced at GM, dealerships. :confuse: The most I've paid for labor is $65 an hour. Now since I never serviced a transplant car in my life I can't speak for their labor rates. As far as parts go on foreign vs. domestic's the onlt rape I see is on import owners taking their superior car to the garage and showing me the bill like my buddy's Camry's Tranny that set him back $3900. OUCH ! :P
Rocky
Power is more than adequate for a 3750 pound vehicle in 99% of MY driving. At higher elevations or fully loaded - yes I would want more power but I don't often drive under those conditions.
The 3.6 VVT is a good engine but not worth the mileage penalty for me. Look at all the LaCrosse CSX owners getting 17mpg city and 24mpg highway in a smaller car and explain to me why I should take a 20% hit on mileage for hi-tech?
As for the mileage with the 3.6, that # is with the 4 speed. They can squeeze a few more MPG by using the six speed.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
But I'll obviously agree with you, after 50k in my Avalon, the 2GR Toyota engine sets the bar awfully high in all respects and remains unmatched for over 2 years now.
In my '06 Lucerne, I'm just under 2,000rpm at 70mph in 4th gear. I agree that you can can gain 20% in mileage with the hi-tech engines, it's just that GM isn't getting that mileage now. If you're getting "well into the 30s (mpg wise) at that speed" in your Avalon, you're doing a lot better than most people.
The Avalon's a great car but I wanted to stay under $25K (I got my used '06 Lucerne with 18,000 miles on the clock for $19K) and the Avalon's were all well over $25K with less warranty compared to Buick's 4yr/50,000 mile bumper-to-bumper zero deductible.
I would never fault somebody for buying a Toyota as my company is a major supplier of engine components to them.
kind of like this?:
back in 03/04 Toyota Corporate/Design (California) in need of a new V6, that would rival anything available and be strong enough to share with a multiude of Toyota/Lexus vehicles - approached their engine plant (in Missouri?) and challenged them not only to design the engine but also to knock $1000.00 of mfgr. cost out of each and every one of them. Believe that "Japan" had very little to do with it, and the co. exports the engine to Japan primarily for Lexus? The result now apparently saving Toyota hundreds of millions per year??
Yep, as soon as you put leather in an Avalon (Touring and above) it is tough to keep it under even $30k given some rather nasty profiteering that's been going on with the distributors since day one. Despite that, however, it remains the cheapest car in this group to own over a defineable period of time, given the relatively astronomical residual values. A simple choice IMO - you can certainly save money now, only to effectively pay it back later. 32 or 33 mpg in an Avalon at a constant 70, BTW, I don't believe is unusual at all!
I just made a statement: "engines with narrow torque curves pulling a lot of weight are the ones that need extra gears in the transmission"
I do not have graphs on all the motors of all the cars mentioned in this forum. Some may be peaky (narrow torque band) compared to others here. If so, the peaky ones are the ones which will more likely derive a performance benefit from extra gears.
Is the new Lexus with the 8 speed auto transmission one with a peaky motor? I don't know.
Can you post all the torque curves of all the motors for us?
What's important is the " ratio spread " which is found by dividing the first gear ratio by the top gear ratio. The higher the number, the lower first gear can be for quick acceleration, and the higher top gear can be for economical cruising.
If there are less gears in between the extremes, then the engine will require a wider torque spread to bridge the gaps.
One of the reasons that CVT transmissions get better mileage than a conventional transmission is because of their very wide " ratio spread " - usually greater than a figure of 6.0 ( most automatics, even with six speeds, don't get much over 5.0 ). IMO, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, etc. are pursueing the wide " ration spread " of CVTs by using more gears ( CVTs being questionable at transferring large amounts of torque )