Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

thegraduate · May 2007

When the Avalon was introduced in '05 Premium was recommended and HP was 280. In '06 HP was bumped down to 268

No change was made in the amount of horsepower the engine produced. The difference comes from the new SAE horsepower testing procedures which Toyota began following in 2006.

Other notable vehicles whose horsepower seemingly dropped (but when in reality it was only the ratings system changing) was the Acura TL (270 down to 258), Toyota Corolla (130 down to 126), Toyota Tacoma (245 down to 236), etc...

None of these engines changed for 2006, just the ratings system.

*I know this was an old post, but this information is not necessarily well-known to everyone, so i figured posting it might help some people*

joe131 · May 2007

so for the Avalon, what do you make of the regular vs premium question as it has to do with the horsepower claims?

thegraduate · May 2007

I don't know, as I don't own a Toyota.

I know our Honda Odyssey (2000 model) recommended premium for peak performance. With premium, the engine got 210 hp, and 229 lb-ft of torque. With regular, the engine got 205 hp and 219 lb-ft of torque, I believe (the owner's manual said it I think). We sold it in 2005 so I can't look it up.

I was just stepping in to let people know about the revised horsepower testing procedures.

tjc78 · May 2007

I guess I worded that poorly... I knew what I wanted to say. LOL

Anyway, I really see no difference in using premium in my '06 Avalon. However the owners manual says to use "87 octane or higher and for improved vehicle performance the use of premium unleaded with an octane rating of 91 or higher is recommended"

captain2 · May 2007

I don't know if I agree with you on the 500 being a well designed 'space ship'.
'space ship' in terms of volumes - but I think you got that?

The 500 impressed me with its interior volumes and a trunk big enough to hold an extra Jimmy Hoffa (or two), fit and finish that was a big improvement for Ford, a 3 or 4 inch increase in ride height that seemed to make a big difference - but then I turned the key and realized that the thing wasn't boldly going anywhere!

The Taurus certainly should now at least get into the neighboring galaxy, but I remain unconvinced that is anything more than a bored/stroked DT3.0 with those attendant refinement issues. Guess I have to hoof it over to a Ford dealer...

barnstormer64 · May 2007

but then I turned the key and realized that the thing wasn't boldly going anywhere!

Kirk: It's not the starship, it's the Captain

Spock: Logical

Kirk: Ahead, warp-factor 9, Mr. Sulu

Scotty: Cap'n, she cannot take any more of this!

Checkov: Cap'n, we just overshot all the Romulans

Kirk: You were saying, Mr. Scott?

Bones: Dangit, Jim, you're a Captain, not a Formula-1 driver

Uhura: Captain, Star Fleet informs us that the Romulans were driving 300C's, but didn't have the b**** to push the pedal to the metal. Something about being afraid of high rpm's, sir.

Kirk: Let that be a lesson to us all, Lieutenant!

tjc78 · May 2007

"realized that the thing wasn't boldly going anywhere"

LOL

diecast61 · May 2007

I would argue that anyone who is satisfied with the car they ultimately purchased would sing praises for it just as all of us do on here. I wouldn't belittle him as if he was somehow tricked into liking a newer/improved version of a vehicle he already owns.

The 2005 is way underpowered!!! I'm not all that happy with it for that reason.

It was NOT a Ford sales seminar -- and it was run by an independent focus group / marketing firm. All of the cars had every identifying mark removed during the test drives. In addition to testing large sedans -- at the same time -- they were also testing SUV's (none of which were fords), and small cars (also none of which were fords) The tests were conducted over 8 days -- with groups of 4 in each test group for each vehicle type. They had 4 groups per day -- and the others all owned and drove different types of cars / trucks / SUV's.

There are a number of things that SUCK in the 2008 Sable - but overall as far as the group of vehicles goes -- it is the best buy for the $$$. My point was only that power is no longer an issue -- the suspension of the Toyota was not to my liking (to each his own) - I felt insecure going through the turns and that the GM style is outdated -- and that the Chrysler visibility sucks. As a matter of fact -- I had no idea when I drove it that the Toyota was in fact a Toyota -- I thought it was a Chrysler or Dodge -- way too much cheap looking plastic. It was only a week later -- at a focus group follow up that I was told it was a Toyota Avalon.

Actually -- the ONLY reason I bought the Montego -- was that I needed a car (My car at the time had 232K)-- it is large and it was a 2005 brand new leftover (in late 2006) with no miles -- and the price was right -- with a sticker of 31K and a price of 21K.

When you have the opportunity to drive all 4 vehicles -- in a span of 3 hours - over the same course -- you can make some very VALID conclusions.

I guess

tjc78 · May 2007

Which Avalon trim did you drive? I know that you mentioned that the markings were removed so its easy to tell other ways:
Cloth Int : XL
Black Leather : Touring
Wood trim: XLS
Limited: Perforated leather/wood steering wheel.

This is important because the Touring has a stiffer suspension and does handle a bit better, and the XL has 16" rims with higher profile tires so it is the softest of the bunch.

I have an '06 XLS and never felt insecure in any move at any speed (and I've pushed it). Maybe because of what I have driven over the years I am used to a softer ride.

captain2 · May 2007

The comment not an effort to 'belittle' anyone - just a comment on how effective these 'sponsored' comparisons can be when they are done 'right' (right meaning coming out with the desired result) and the 'sponsor' gets to set the rules. Ford, in particular, has a seemingly new found need to 'rely' on things like this.

captain2 · May 2007

I like this, but you failed to mention that Kirk didn't overshoot the Romulans unless, of course, the Romulans wanted him to - or the part about Bones having to fit Kirk with a kidney belt as they approached Warp 9! The Romulans weren't in 300Cs, BTW, they found out that they could save some 'plasma' with some of the better V6 warp engines and do almost as well.

gws · May 2007

I believe that the 3.5 V-6 engine in the Lexus ES350 is the same as the Avalon. Lexus recommends premium fuel and lists 272HP, while the Avalon listing with regular is 268HP.

captain2 · May 2007

that 4 HP difference corresponds with the differences in the way the Avalon actually drives regular vs. premium. A very marginal power increase with the hi-test, and have noted no FE drop-off using the regular. The rest of the HP drop apparently had to do with running a PS pump and test protocols in the new SAE rules that took effect in 06. The Avalon, 280, 272 or 268 hp is one very quick and economical machine!

joe131 · May 2007

That is a good observation, but that could be a result of different grades of gas, or it might be a slightly different exhaust system, or other things.

barnstormer64 · May 2007

I like this, but you failed to mention that Kirk didn't overshoot the Romulans unless, of course, the Romulans wanted him to

Nope . . they were just afraid of high rpm's . . pretty wimpy Romulans.

captain2 · May 2007

continuing with the 'Trek' theme - those 'wimpy' Romulans wouldn't be afraid of high rpms at all if their starship was equipped with a better V6 warp engine, would they? And then nobody needs a kidney belt, do they?
To get a bit more on topic, Ford made a big mistake in putting the DT3.0 in a car the size and weight of the 500, and now feel they must rename it, I guess to distance it from it forebearers? Put the 3.5 in the original 500 and I doubt very seriously we would even have the 'Taurus'.

tjc78 · May 2007

Aside from the engine mistake. Did Ford really ever go after the 500? I see tons of Fusion and Edge commercials, but never really see much of anything for the 500. They are selling Fusions, is it because its just a better car or because of marketing? Some of the comments on the Midsize sedan forum scare me (i.e. Poor FE, lack of power)

On a side note, I am sure Ford is not happy that NYC may introduce a plan to make all of it's taxi cabs Hybrids (in 5 years) Where are all the new Crown Vics going to go?

captain2 · May 2007

and Toyota sells a whole lot more Camrys than Avalons and always have - the 'the mid size' sedan a much more 'shopped segment' The Fusion, IMO, is not a whole lot different than the 500, despite tuning the DT for a few more HP, it is also a car in need of a heart transplant, although it is a relatively well conceived and designed vehicle.
Read an article about Crown Vics in police applications where those cars apparently sell for $26k :confuse: and test very poorly against things like a Charger V8. Ford may be losing more than just cab sales in NYC (and elsewhere).

tjc78 · May 2007

"and Toyota sells a whole lot more Camrys than Avalons"

Didn't even think of that as I was writing it. You are right the "midsize" segment dominates the market. What I am surprised at is with the price of gas these days, the full size sedans aren't seeing more action from people wanting to sell their EXPO's and Surburbans. I guess those people are going over to crossover vehicles instead.

allmet33 · May 2007

That's because they are holding on to the belief that one day, gas prices will drop again!!! LOL

Actually, a lot of full size SUV owners have a 2nd vehicle that's good on gas around town. The SUV's really shine when you take them on long trips. On the highway...that's where they see their best gas mileage. With families being bigger these days...most folks need SUV's still.

floridabob1 · May 2007

RE: 2309
Check the recent sales numbers, SUV sales dropping dramatically for the most part.

barnstormer64 · May 2007

With families being bigger these days...most folks need SUV's still.

We seemed to manage just find with 3 kids and a station wagon when I was growing up.

Of course, all the Freestyle is is a glorified station wagon . . with a better rear-seat design.

jaxs1 · May 2007

Are families really bigger "these days" than in the past or just fatter?
Seems to me people are having less kids than in the olden days.

joe131 · May 2007

How dramatically are SUV sales dropping?

derrelhgreen · May 2007

SUV sales are in fact NOT dropping according to the news Tuesday evening.

In fact, they said that it was surprising that sales of the gas hungry SUVs
were holding steady even though the cost of fuel was at an all time high.

joe131 · May 2007

Should we believe the mainstream press or the government? Are they pretty much the same so far as spin on all things economic are concerned?

derrelhgreen · May 2007

Good point!

It is hard for me to believe that people are still going out and buying those hungry
gassers that can cost upwards of twenty five to thirty cents per mile to fuel
since gasoline has become so expensive, especially here in California.

One business report did say that both GM and Ford were really hurting because
sales of big Suvs and Trucks were way off due to the higher cost of gasoline.

floridabob1 · May 2007

RE: 2313
Type "SUV sales reports" into your browser and you will find many reports documenting this decline.

cobrazera · May 2007

Freestyle: Gone

louiswei · May 2007

Freestyle: Gone

Taurus X: In

PS. it's the same thing

captain2 · May 2007

One business report did say that both GM and Ford were really hurting because
sales of big Suvs and Trucks were way off
while there is a real perceived need for the big SUV, that 10-15 mpg has got to hurt. Down here in Texas, which is likely the truck/SUV capital of the world , you still only see trucks/SUVs in grocery store parking lots especially in the more affluent areas. In the meanwhile, for those that are impressed with discounts, it is those same Suburbans/Tahoes/Expeditions that advertise regulary at 10-12k discounts for a $40k truck. While it is no secret that these relatively simple low tech vehicles are cheaper to produce than a simple 4 door sedan, discounting 25-30% takes care of most, if not all, of that extra profit margin.
The big ole V8 truck based vehicle is something that 'Detroit' does pretty well and their future hyas been pretty much pinned on a truck comeback for decades now, simply because they have a whole lot of problem competing effectively in the car business. Contend that if gas prices get up to $4 and stay there for anymore than a few months, GM/Ford/Chrysler may be history.
In my own case, after driving Suburbans for 15 years, I just got tired of triple digit fillups (42 gallon gas tank), didn't need the space for the kids (now on their own)
and wanted something comfortable also a whole lot more fun to drive at almost twice the FE. That combination became my Avalon...

allmet33 · May 2007

Oh...they are dropping for sure, but those that own them aren't readily giving them up either.

hardhawk · May 2007

There will always be a market for big body on frame SUV's & trucks. Those who need to tow will always have the need for these vehicles. The new cars and CUV's based on unibody structures just won't handle towing anything of substance. My Hemi Magnum has the power to tow, but not the frame. Gm is going to discontinue our Envoy, so when it dies we will have to go to a large pickup or SUV in order to pull our boat. We will not have any other choice as all the truck based mid size SUV's are on the extinction path right now.

cobrazera · May 2007

I saw a little ditty on the tube yesterday that found that when gas hits $4.16 a gallon, people will change their buying and driving habits.
We're not very far from that, but my humble observations haven't seen any change yet in driving habits. At least here in Michigan, they're still running 80MPH or more on the freeway. On a couple recent 20 mile trips at the speed limit ( 70MPH ) I passed a couple trucks and cars, but was passed by hundreds of cars.
I wonder how Camry hybrid sales are doing?

allmet33 · May 2007

I'm sure there will be a crossover that can handle most average towing needs. I believe the Saturn Outlook, which is sistered with the Acadia (GMC) and the Enclave (Buick) can all two around 4000 lbs. While that may not be a heavyweight, I'm sure the average boat owner wouldn't have a problem with it.

floridabob1 · May 2007

RE:2323
I remember when gas was approaching $1.00per gallon. The media was saying that there would be a revolt. It never happened.
The same was said at the 2,3 and even 4 dollar level.
Consumers may adjust their driving habits to a degree and the type vehicle that they buy, but usually they go back to their original ways after the "acceptance level" kicks in.
Europe has had prices equivalent to 9 to 10 dollars per gallon, and they still drive.
In the long run, the US consumer wants availability more so than low price, although most will not admit it.

captain2 · May 2007

Europe has had prices equivalent to 9 to 10 dollars per gallon, and they still drive.
has always been several times what is has historically been in this country - a new level of taxation we haven't yet experienced in this country. and you don't find things like Suburbans over there at all - displacement taxes, the roads are too narrow, not to mention the gas prices. Whether $4/gallon is some sort of magic tolerance limit, I don't know, time will tell because it should happen before the end of summer this year. As pone poster siad, there are certain things that only can be done with these big body on frame trucks, but can Ford/GM survive by selling 3/4 of a million trucks a year while still at least having some sort of minimal presence in the car business?

gamleged · May 2007

"I wonder how Camry hybrid sales are doing?"

Wait 'till the new measurement of fuel economy is put into place and the hybrid mileage benefit takes a bit of a dive to more realistic figures, then we'll see whether hybrids are still looked upon with as much favor.

Even though the hybrid will maintain its better relative mileage over other also-reduced figures for non-hybrid vehicles, the absolute number drop may prove disheartening to buyers who both pay a premium for a hybrid and who also take a bite in resale value as that big, expensive battery pack ages...

cobrazera · May 2007

I was driving a 1973 Z28 when the gas crisis hit. Premium gas ( 100 octane ) was 32.9 everywhere and it jumped to 60 cents a gallon. I traded the Zee for a Fiat 128. Glad the Fiat is gone, wish I had the Zee now.
Anyway, points well taken as far as what we get used to and our tolerance level, but...there are lots of people who have medium to long commutes and cannot afford to pay $500 or more per month for gas.
I was in Europe last summer and gas there was around $7/gal. The difference in cost was due to higher taxes in order to pay for their universal health care among other things - they still pay the same as we do for the crude, and yeah, I didn't see any 4WD pickups, Suburbans, etc. If gas here stays high, we will have to change.
IMO, if we had raised the gas tax long ago - with the assurance that it would reduce our other taxes accordingly, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. Less need to maintain the supply from the Middle East; US auto industry would be more competitive without the higher costs due to the high health care costs, etc.
Back to cars, how's the Camry hybrid availability?

derrelhgreen · May 2007

. . . how's the Camry hybrid availability?

Out here at the largest Toyota dealership in the World, we find that there
are 36 Camry Hybrids in stock ranging in price from $27,019 to $28,789.

To give you an idea of just how big this dealership really is, there are 288 Camrys listed as being in stock.
Of course, that was just a few minutes ago, so who knows what there stock is now?
This dealership hopes to move 2500 vehicles during the month of May.

There probably are many dealerships elsewhere that are smaller that may not have one hybrid in stock.

captain2 · May 2007

I personally regard hybrids as computerized nightmares and ultimate appliances and really believe that despite Toyota 'championing' the cause that they will eventually fall out of favor as word gets out that not only are the FE ratings a joke but also that the cost premiums are out of kilter with the fuel savings. In its place, at least in the short term, these new high tech diesels. But, the last thing I would want to see - higher gas taxes to pay for national health care - getting the government involved in almost anything is asking for trouble (and waste)!

allmet33 · May 2007

The money folks save in gas, will be spent on any maintenance and repairs the car will need. Which from my understanding...hybrid maintenance is much more costly since it's considered specialized!!!!

captain2 · May 2007

precisely, and the reason for the 'computer nightmare' comment. To repair a computer these days, we simply start replacing stuff until the silly thing starts working again or press Cntr-Alt-Del in hope the thing will somehow fix itself - in either case you never know what went wrong or why. Used to tuneup and repair all my cars myself, all the way up to engine rebuilds - but these days am pretty much limited to oil changes and brake jobs - wouldn't be dumb enough to even attempt an engine rebuild on my Avalon. Add in the extra complexities of an interacting electric motor or two, and my dumbness could then be called idiocy as soon as I touched the thing!

allmet33 · May 2007

I feel you...my mechanical dabblings also have been limited to oil changes and brake jobs too. And folks wonder why they are still buying those old Crown Vics and Grand Marquis!!!

hardhawk · May 2007

The one constant in the boating world is that the boats keep getting bigger and bigger. Ours is a 22' boat that, with trailer, weighs 5000 pounds. The new model of our same 22' boat weighs almost 1000 pounds more than ours. The Gm triplets won't cut it because of their lack of a frame. Our Envoy has about the same horsepower as the new triplets, but it has a frame for the heavy duty load equalizing hitch. If you go to any lake in our area and look at the launch parking lot, all you see are body on frame SUV's & pickups.

allmet33 · May 2007

I guess that would be for you serious boaters! LOL

I think the companies know this and have found a way to keep a need for those large SUV's and trucks.

Guess for all the other ones, they can get a decent fishing boat down to the lake!

captain2 · May 2007

well, we do have our one poster here that will tell us that they are the greatest (and cheapest) things since the The Sea parted. And indeed, there may have been some Crown Vics there when that happened.

The conflict is, of course, the sacrifices you make for the simplicity and lack of sophistication. The way I look at it, if I'm going to get 50 more HP, several more mpg, and overall a safer, more enjoyable and better car to drive then a price will necessarily have to be paid, the results of some of this technology that is in one car and not in the other. I am getting a little old to be hanging chain hoists over my hood anymore anyway, and I fully expect to drive any car I buy these days to get me to at least the 100k mark before I have any trouble with it all in any case - at which point I'm probably tiring of it and/or Toyota has figured out a way to get me 400HP, RWD, and 30 mpg in the 2010 model!

allmet33 · May 2007

You are absolutely correct!!!

tjc78 · May 2007

"400HP, RWD, and 30 mpg in the 2010 model"

You forgot to keep it under 35K!

allmet33 · May 2007

Well...Hyundai'll get it pretty close in 2008, IF they drop the Genesis.

300+ hp, RWD, gas mileage unknown right now, but...the kicker is that will be available for the low to mid-$30's!!! That's something you'll NEVER see Toyota or Honda pull off.

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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