Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

tjc78 · August 2007

"As for the "downsides" to which you refer, I have yet to find any in the SS"

IMO here they are:
Torque Steer
Smallish Interior (compared to others in segment)
Resale value not much better than Hyundai
City gas mileage when DOD not engaging

What speed is your 28 -29 MPG at? The website claims 16/24 I guess thats the new standard. My Avalon will pull at least 30 at 70-75. Not too bad either. The Impala is only .4 seconds quicker to 60 than the Avalon, shows you what the extra weight of the V8 does.

There are thousands of happy Avalon owners without trans problems (me being one) and Toyota issued a TSB for a software reflash to correct those having a problem. I believe you will stop hearing about this issue. I hardly would call it a plauge.

tjc78 · August 2007

" really do believe though that the 05+ Avalon might just be the ultimate traffic light sleeper"

Yes it is...

Had a guy in a early 90s Honda Civic with a fart can on it try. After he got a good look at the back of the Av at the next light he asked what I did to the engine I said "Bone Stock" he said "Bulls***" I said no really it is!

allmet33 · August 2007

Styling??? :confuse: Since when has any police cruiser been stylish? LMAO Okay, okay, okay...you ARE entitled. :P I would have to say right now, the most stylish domestic entry would have to be the Buick Lucerne...very nice styling, very lethargic V-6. Of course, this is all personal opinion!

priggly · August 2007

Torque steer is non-existent unless you drive like a maniac.

The interior could hardly be described as "smallish" at 104.5 cubic feet. The trunk adds another 18.6 cubic feet. The Avalon trunk, incidentally, is 14.4 cubic feet while the cabin is 106.9 cubic feet. Hence, the total interior space in the Impala SS actually exceeds that in the Avalon.

The SS is a relatively low production model and resale value should hold its own partly on that basis.

City gas mileage is about 16-17 in my particular car. My 28-29 mpg on the highway is at a constant 70 mph on relatively level terrain. I consider this excellent for an engine with 303 hp and 323 ft.-lb. of torque. Incidentally, not only is the SS faster from 0-60 than the Avalon but it also has a higher top end speed at 154 mph.

Consider yourself fortunate if you have no transmission problems. According to the various enthusiast boards the issue is not uncommon and also involves the new Camry and Lexus 350. The Impala SS transmission (which is a heavier duty iteration compared to the other Impala models) is as smooth as glass and gives instant response when you engage the accelerator. GM is known to build probably the best automatic transmissions in the business. I know I am more than pleased with mine.

cobrazera · August 2007

The Lucerne is a classy car and a viable option in this segment, tho the V-8 version is slower than the Azera V-6 and gets less fuel economy. I looked seriously at the car before buying my Azera.
I passed on the Buick because it doesn't offer a folding rear seat and even with my discount the Buick is about $5K more.

cobrazera · August 2007

I had a 2001 Tahoe for 5 years ( the one with the piston slap ) and it was a bit noisy for the first minute of driving after the first start of the day. Other than that, the 5300 Vortec in that truck is a fantastic engine.
It returned decent fuel economy ( 19.5 MPG highway and 16 overall ) considering it was lugging almost 3 tons around with the aerodynamics of a brick. It also towed a trailer weighing 10,000 pounds.
In other words, the piston slap is not a big deal.

cobrazera · August 2007

Although I'm not a fan of the SS ( torque steer being the biggest complaint ) I disagree with your statement concerning extra weight of the V-8.
The all- aluminum pushrod V-8 is not a heavy engine, in fact it weighs less than the supercharged V-6 that it replaced in a number of GM cars. 4 steel cams riding high on a DOHC engine are not the lightest of worlds either.

tjc78 · August 2007

"The Avalon trunk, incidentally, is 14.4 cubic feet while the cabin is 106.9 cubic feet. Hence, the total interior space in the Impala SS actually exceeds that in the Avalon"

The Avalon's trunk is a little on the small side, but who counts the trunk in interior volume???????? No one will ever sit back there unless Tony Soprano is driving the car.
My point is sit in the Avalon front and rear and tell me which has more room. I have driven a # of Impalas as rentals, believe me much smaller.

"Torque steer is non-existent unless you drive like a maniac"

I'll admit to having a little fun while driving, but merging onto a busy hghway is hardly driving like a maniac.

tjc78 · August 2007

"I disagree with your statement concerning extra weight of the V-8"

The Impala SS is heavier than the Avalon, that weight came from somewhere. Maybe I was wrong to assume the engine. However, any more weight on the front wheels of any of these cars is not a good thing.

alexstore · August 2007

Buick is now sharing same spot on reliability ladder as Lexus.

captain2 · August 2007

No one will ever sit back there unless Tony Soprano is driving the car.
very good

but my name is Jimmy Hoffa!

jimmy2x · August 2007

Have driven Lucerne in both the V6 and CXS V8 versions. Both were very nice, but the CXS was the clear winner in both smooth power, handling, and a quiet ride. The HK stereo system was one of the best I've heard in ANY car.

Have also looked at, sat in, but not driven Avalon and Azera. Both were also very nice and comfortable. Only thing did not like about Avalon were crappy NAV system and "door" over the radio. Azera seats were VERY comfortable and had something that I am sure is insignificant to most - a lighted ashtray. LOL but to us few remaining nicotine adicts a pleasant surprise.

Will drive all three next summer before making a decision as I will have to replace my company car (unfortunately they won't give it to me when I retire). The car will be used primarily for road trips and the wife and I will use her '02 Camry (great car) for banging around town.

jaymagic · August 2007

Since the Azera has a top end of 157, is also quicker 0-60 than the Avalon, the same interior volume as the Avalon, but with a bigger trunk, and no transmission problems, maybe we should drive to the track in the Avalon, which would easily accommodate us in style, let the Azera and the SS go head to head, then let the Avalon follow both to the gas station (just in case), and then call it a day. I suspect both Azera and Avalon owners will be happy with the choice they made.

dborth · August 2007

"Since the Azera has a top end of 157"

Uh, I have seen published Azera top speed of in the mid 140's. If it can exceed 149, I believe we would be driving on "Z" rated rather than "V" rated tires.

jaymagic · August 2007

"The Azera has a four-wheel independent suspension (multi-link in the rear) and uses the company's new 3.8 L Lambda V6, which generates 263-hp (196 kW). The power is sent to the front wheels through a five-speed automatic transmission with "Shiftronic" manual gear selection. Hyundai claims 6.3 seconds to accelerate to 60 mph (97 km/h) and a top speed of 157 MPH (252 km/h). The Azera has a fuel economy of 19 MPG (12.4 L/100 km) in the City and 28 MPG (8.4 L/100 km) on the Highway is expected."

link title

This info is also posted in a few other car review locations. I have had mine to 140 with plenty to spare.

tjc78 · August 2007

"is also quicker 0-60 than the Avalon"

According to Car and Driver

Azera - 6.5 Sec 1/4 15.2 sec
Avalon - 6.0 sec 1/4 14.6 sec

alexstore · August 2007

I agree and plus Avalon as well as max both have a far superior engine to Azera. Both of these cars with less displacement produce close HP and torque numbers

captain2 · August 2007

tjc - and the Impala should be in the high 5s and lower 14s BUT I think we must be missing the point

which seems to be: if you are stupid enough to drive any of these cars at anything approaching 150 mph, the 'quicker' car must be the one that might actually do it - despite those 'insignificant' things like tire safety , product liability lawyers and, of course, hazards for the general public. Many of the German cars (the ones that are quite a bit safer at those kinds of speeds) are electronically limited to 155 or so, so I guess the Azera therefore is 'quicker' than a 550i? Whether GM or Hyundai has chosen to ignore these kinds of things (irresponsible on their part IMO) is not the point - apparently.
It might just be 'jaymagic' that turns around and sues Hyundai (and Bridgestone) after a tire blow out (if he survives), claiming, of course, that he had no idea that hot coffee might really be hot!

hardhawk · August 2007

Hey Jimmy, how did you get out of the concrete!?!

popsavalon · August 2007

Yes sir, I know that a couple of the most important features I looked for when I bought my Avalon was 0-60 time, and rated top speed over 130 MPH. This was because it would be mostly driven by my wife.

Take a breath, guys!

captain2 · August 2007

never was, it turns out that FWD cars don't need that extra weight in the trunk in those winter months!

tjc78 · August 2007

Captain,

Well said! IMO any of these cars at 150 is not a good thing, the suspensions are all too soft.

priggly · August 2007

Impala SS - 5.6 sec 1/4 14.2 sec

dborth · August 2007

"despite those 'insignificant' things like tire safety , product liability lawyers and, of course, hazards for the general public."

Since I raised the comment originally about "Z" vs. "V" speed rated tires, I agree with "captain2". The manufacturer has a responsibility to equip the vehicle with the appropriate tires. If the Klowns in Korea don't know the law in the US, their ticket to market products here should be pulled.

Frankly, I can't imagine anyone stepping up to an Azera because of 0-60 & quarter mile performance for a heavy 4-door glorified FWD Korean Buick swayler. Those that did, or do are kidding themselves. Buy a 3 yr. old 540 and get your kicks.

allmet33 · August 2007

Funny...it would take the SS to go up against the Azera. Heck..Avalon or Maxima for that matter.

On top of all that...bland styling and an extremely UN-inspiring interior.

allmet33 · August 2007

Wouldn't it really be a moot point since the car would seemingly never be driven at those speeds? I mean...there are a lot of Vettes, BMW's, and other high performance vehicles that come from the manufacturer with Z rated rubber, but never get driven in a way that would require them.

I've never needed anything more than H-rated tires on any of my vehicles. However, when I switched to 20" wheels, the tires that I got came as V-rated. That doesn't mean I'm going to drive at the max speed rating for those tires.

tonycd · August 2007

That news item was JD Power's survey of INITIAL quality.

In-depth research on American vs. Japanese cars has clearly documented that even when an American car starts out at parity in freedom from defects, the Japanese car ages better in later years.

This seems to relate to the Japanese makers' more respectful relationships with suppliers. Major US companies who supply carmakers from both countries have rated Toyota and Honda much, much higher as business partners in industry surveys than they rate the American makers. Some have even said outright that if they are called upon to supply the same part to both, they will give the Japanese carmaker the better-made part.

This behavior is not motivated by treason. Rather, it is because US carmakers typically treat them disrespectfully, disdaining long-term business relationships and squeezing them mercilessly on price. Just for one example, the company that supplied the frame for the Ford Explorer, then the best-selling SUV in America, publicly renounced any interest in continuing to supply it. Their explanation: Ford was lowballing them so badly that it was simply impossible for them to make any money on it.

Extend that episode to the 20,000+ unseen parts you depend on for multi-year reliability during the life of your car, and you'll get some idea why the 3- or 6-month time horizon of JD Power doesn't quite tell the whole story about the incidence of automotive defects.

Now, I've skipped entirely the other question: is "quality" rightly defined as nothing more than the absence of defects? If you sit in, say, a Buick Lucerne and a Lexus ES, do you think the wood and leather are at parity? Most people don't. I would suggest this, too, is a quality issue.

jaymagic · August 2007

Bridgestone is safe since my Azera came with Michelin MXV4 S8 V rated tires. My foray up to 140 was a one time thing (very smooth road, no wind, no traffic). Although it felt very stable, it was not in a class with Bimmers, MB's, and Porsche's that I have driven on the autobahn at a consistent 150 and higher. It did compare well with a new Volvo S80 I had over there two years ago. It was driven consistently around 130.

I am also surprised there is no speed limiter. I read an article about a year ago that talked about this and said that since Korean domestic cars do not have limiters, with the Azera being built in Korea, they just didn't put one in. There is apparently no US requirement to do so, certainly Porsches, Ferrari's, etc. are not speed limited.

I didn't get mine for the 0-60 time or top speed, but it certainly did not keep me from getting it. Frankly, the number of airbags, was probably at least as important.

101649 · August 2007

It's a cop car, and a slow one at that......

alexstore · August 2007

wow interesting view. Now where do we fit korean automakers?

plekto · August 2007

wow interesting view. Now where do we fit korean automakers?

****
So Hyundai makes a slightly better version of a Buick than GM does.

...

It's still a large, bloated sedan. Tons of economy and well, nothing at all like a car any of us aspire to actually own someday. It's kind of like hearing two people argue over which flavor of oatmeal is best. Um... I'm heading right over to get me a nice steak, thankyouverymuch...

tjc78 · August 2007

"Tons of economy and well, nothing at all like a car any of us aspire to actually own someday"

Well, since not everyone is "made of money" maybe a 30K+ car is something they "aspire to own" I don't know how many times someone has complimented my car ('06 Avalon) and said "wish I could afford that" What you aspire to own is all relative... I would love to have a Lexus LS and maybe one day I will but for now an Avalon will have to do, no different than someone driving an Accent and really wishing they could afford that "Large, bloated sedan" otherwise known as Azera.

plekto · August 2007

I seriously doubt that anyone who can afford a 30-35K car really couldn't afford a better car a few years used.(or something liks a LS and not have to trade cars for a decade)

The interiors are full of plastic. The doors sound hollow when you close them. They are heavy as well - way WAY over 3000 lbs(closer to 4000 actually). I could be describing a Hyundai, a Buick, a Toyota...

Now, there are a few exceptions. The Lucerne CXS is very nice, and the Avalon is as well(though plainly overpriced). But neither are a Lexus, Infinity, or Mercedes.

Btw, my money, used, would be on a 2002-2003 S430. Amazing car and very affordable, considering.

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?paId=237802148
Most go for about $20K, but I picked this as you could easily haggle it down to $25K and it has nearly no miles on it.(of course, if it was me, I'd only buy it in black...)

joe97 · August 2007

According to Car and Driver

Azera - 6.5 Sec 1/4 15.2 sec

Doesn't sound right. C&D reached 6.5 in the Sonata 3.3

I'd think the Azera 3.8 at least shaves some with higher power output.

jml7 · August 2007

Hey- oatmeal is worth arguing over- especially the newer flavors that they have come out with lately. Mmmmmmmmmmm....... Oatmeal........

Unless I am horribly mistaken, the Azera also weighs more than the Sonata, which would explain why it isn't faster.

Where I live, a 2002 LS430 w/ 65K miles goes for 28K, so buying a used high-end luxury sedan is certainly an option.

sergio19 · August 2007

1/4 Mile ET: 14.810
1/4 Mile MPH: 96.010

http://www.dragtimes.com/Hyundai--Azera-Drag-Racing.html

bhmr59 · August 2007

If you prefer a 6 year old car (out of warranty) with 65K miles, go ahead & buy it.

Others would prefer a brand new Azera with "no miles" and the new car warranty.

I think the Azera is faster than the Sonata (unless you're comparing the Azera GLS which has the Sonata 3.3L engine) since the weight to horse power ratio of the 3.8L Azera is less than that of the 3.3L Sonata. For everyday driving the Sonata is pretty darn quick, but the Azera is quicker.

tonycd · August 2007

Over the years, my unscientific observation has been that you can tell a lot about the future of the car from the direction the carmaker is going.

Applying that today:

Honda's on top because of its quality perception, both in studies and in the flesh, and wants to stay there.

Toyota's had its head turned by sales and profit goals and isn't under pressure on quality because of its unimpeachable image, so it's slipped.

The US Big 2.5 can't shake their management heritage, so their long-term reliability will always be suspect.

Hyundai/Kia are on the make and determined to impress. I'm willing to bet their build quality is just as good where it doesn't show. (That's not to say the cars are perfect -- witness the clunk. It's to say they're probably using first-class materials and exerting maximum effort.)

As for the snippy-snippy comments about Korean cars being "oatmeal" nobody would really desire, count me as one exception. I'd love to own and drive an Azera. It's pretty, it's fast, it's well made, and it pampers you like a sultan's bedroom. What more can a commuter ask?

jml7 · August 2007

I agree. There is a reason that oatmeal sells well. Not flashy, but it works.

scbob · August 2007

The Japanese and Korean corportate leaders look 3, 5, 10 years down the road and where they want their companies to be.
American look to the next big bonus, stock option and so forth. Chrysler just hired the guy fired by Home Depot and given $250 million to leave. He has no experience with automobiles at all.
While the marketing and flash of American advertising does work for a while, eventually people making the second biggest purchases of their lives look for real quality, dependability and reliability.
I have owned Ford and Chrysler products and have friends who have owned the same and GM. They now drive Japanese cars-permanently.
BTW, the maintenance cost on used European cars is about $2,000 annually above regular maintenance from I have been told.

tjc78 · August 2007

"Doesn't sound right. C&D reached 6.5 in the Sonata 3.3"

Thats the #'s they got when they last tested it (from their website). There are so variables when they do 0-60 and 1/4 miles that it could easily be a few tenths off from test to test.

tjc78 · August 2007

Plekto,

You are right that there are a # of deals in the used car market, however I wouldn't touch a 5 year old S430 with a ten foot pole. There are so many electronic gizmos in that thing I feel it would nickle and dime you to death. The last thing I want is a 18 - 20K car loan on a five year old out of warranty vehicle. I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.

BTW a coworker has an '05 or '06 S430 4matic. He rode in my Avalon and said the ride was everybit as good. I said nah, can't be. So he let me take it for a spin. Not that much different (little more controlled and quieter). However, that vehicle had the nicest leather I have ever felt and the attention to detail is amazing. As it should for 85K.

plekto · August 2007

Note - I didn't single out Hyundai. I was talking about ALL of the 20-something thousand, boxes out there. But, yes, a fancy Hyundai or Chevrolet or Mercury is still a Hyundai, a Chevrolet, or a Mercury.

And, yes, a used luxury car without the nav and other nonsense can be a fantastic car. Even used, it drives, handles, and will be a LOT better to drive than a typical "sedan".

****
I guess you could buy a warranty probably 2K on a Benz, by then you could buy a brand new Avalon/Azera/Lucerne. Different strokes I guess.
****

this is like saying you could buy a used 911 or a new Miata. There's a whole level that you gain with the better used car that isn't there with the new budget car. It's not just a matter of pure economics.

makigrl · August 2007

What about the Hyundai Genesis its pose to be their first car with a V-8 engine and rwd that will start around $30,000. The low end model will have the 260 something V-6 found in the Azera and then a higher level model with a 350 HP V-8. Like there trying to make a nicely styled vehicle that is sporty and more powerful than any of the other cars Hyundai has made.

captain2 · August 2007

you make a number of good points here - the 'Japanese' tradition of obligation to its 'family' among them. I also have very little doubt that given a choice of supplying a part to an 'American' mfgr. vs. a 'Japanese' one most of those parts suppliers would take the latter. Putting component part suppliers on a continual bid (low price wins) basis is only an invitation to shortcuts in quality by those suppliers - something more likely to show up with age.
As far as JDP's opinion of things go - it is a 'sponsored' award and therefore very suspect in that it ALWAYS seems to end up with those manufacturers (Hyundai,GM, and Ford, for example) that seem to NEED it the most and will pay for the use of the JDP 'trophy' in advertising campaigns etc. Amazing that folks pay any attention to it anymore!

robbieg · August 2007

I agree. In my area, most people who are going to buy used buy a three year old off-lease Lexus with about 25,000 -35,000 miles on it. This way they may have a little warrantly left and they can drive it for a few years before it hits 100,000 miles.

I would be scared financing a car with 65,000 miles on it because I would have to spread it out over 4 or 5 years.

prosource1 · August 2007

'The low end model will have the 260 something V-6 found in the Azera'

Insiders are reporting that Hyundai will upgrade the present 3.8 V6 to 300hp.

The 4.6 V8 is being reported to crank out 365hp.

tonycd · August 2007

Begging your indulgence -- admittedly drifting a bit off-topic here. But my personal take is that JD Power isn't the most dishonest automotive award out there.

My impression is that JD Power does legitimate surveys. From there, they let the automakers cherry-pick the outcomes, such as creating a category of one so the carmaker can advertise "Most Appealing Entry-Level Small Midsize Wagon with Mudflaps." But at least this doesn't do an injustice to other entry-level small midsize wagons with mudflaps.

A far worse offender is Motor Trend's Car of the Year, the award infamous for being outright bought by ad pages. How else did the molten Chevy Caprice taxicab win? I'm surprised the trophy isn't a pair of calipers with a wad of 20's stuffed in the middle.

And worst of all in my book is the "Consumers Digest Best Buy." It's not only an award that's routinely bought, but its name deliberately leeches off the credibility of the actually credible Consumer Reports (and even the pretty decent Consumer Guide). I wish CU could sue the pants off these guys, and I'm sure they're perpetually seething that they can't. GM, naturally, sells a ton of these "winners."

captain2 · August 2007

I agree- I would also guess that JDP is not the most 'dishonest' BUT any award given by anybody where the awarder receives any sort of monetary compensation (usually in the form of advertising revenues) by the awardee - must be regarded as suspect.
It is beyond me how JDP (and the car mags, Consumer Digesat and others you mention) can claim impartiality, when they know, for example, that should they give one of those little trophies to the Taurus that Ford will put it in TV ads in a NY minute, while Toyota/Honda/Nissan probably won't - if only because those particular mfgrs have customers that expect it.

joe97 · August 2007

That's what I am hearing. The V6 will have the second generation of Lambda with increased hp (in this case around 300 horses) and increased fuel economy.

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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