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Comments
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I don't see MPG going down, actually. Wondering what cars you are talking about?
1997 Lumina - dohc V6 3.4L 210hp 4speed: 17/26 MPG
1997 Taurus - dohc V8 3.4L 235hp 4speed: 17/26 MPG
2008 Impala - ohv V6 3.9L 233hp 4speed: 18/28 MPG
2008 Taurus - dohc V6 3.5L 260hp 4speed: 18/28 MPG
Yes, I used the V8 Taurus, but mileage is better, and power is better than the top engine in the Taurus, even the V8.
BTW, the EPA has now changed the way they compute MPG and surprisingly, it is now very close to what Consumer Reports shows as MPG's. CR is still the most reliable source for real world MPG's. They get a standard car off the lot, keep it for three months or so, do all types of tests and then let their employees drive it on a daily, real world basis for a few months.
'98 VW Passat V6 20/29 MPG
'07 VW Passat V6 18/26 MPG
'98 LeSabre 3.8 19/30 MPG
'07 Lacrosse 3.6 19/27 MPG
Those have higher horsepower and get lower MPG
The Buick is right, though. The old (and I mean they are OLD) 3.8L had low horses, decent torque, and an extremely tall gearing which gave them good mileage. As a motor, it just isn't compeititve anymore though. Less than 200 horses from nearly 4 Liters of displacement is really bad.
Click on it. Post your mileage. Add it to your tracked discussions.
:shades:
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The Lucerne has the Northstar V8 available in two of the three models if you believe the 3800 isn't powerful enough for your driving needs. The three models have three different handling feels also. You can't stereotype all three from the 3800 CX which replaces the base LeSabre level cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
As for your comments about the 3800, I find it's very competent. I don't dragrace. I don't do hotrodding around corners. To each his own, but I find it nicely competent and would replace my current one with a 3800 Series II or Series III if the need arises.
3.6 LaCrosse
Northstar Lucerne
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Have driven both the CXL with the V6 and the CXS V8 - power good for both, but the smooth powered acceleration of the V8 was much better for me and I liked the handling better.
Have driven Honda, Toyota, etc. updated V6 and certainly they are more than sufficiently powered and I suspect in a race would run rings around the V8 Buick. But of course, these are not designed for hot-rod enthusiasts.
For many of us that grew up with V8's there is something about that effortless smooth torque that a V6 cannot match. This, of course, is an "old school" thing and I can fully understand why much of the younger crowd thinks we are nuts.
I know what you are saying and have driven my share of "old school" autos mostly full size Fords. Anyway, the newer V6's are so smooth you can't usually tell what RPM they are at anyway. My point continues to be if you can get almost equal power from a smaller more efficient motor that is the way to go, especially in a FWD.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That price is inline with the Avalon Limited and a bargain compared to some of the Luxury nameplates Buick wants to go after.
I'll give you one better, the Lacrosse Super will get the 5.3L from the Impala SS and will be cheaper than the Lucerne what sense does that make? I know that from an engineering standpoint it makes sense (same platform) but how do you market that? The flagship car gets a lesser motor.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Rest assured that I have no basis to argue the smoothness of the 6 vs. the 8 - just a matter of personal preference.
As far as FWD goes, I have found more FWD torque problems on the wife's 4 cyl Camry than on the V8 Buick. After all, GM has been making large FWD cars for many years and they seem to have that issue solved.
4400rpm for both engines. This is reasonably the most anyone will push their car, ever, even during really hard launches. 3400 is actually more reasonable.(they used to rate the engines at 3800rpm a decade ago, which is more realistic).
V6: 3000rpm - 125HP/225lb-ft.
4400rpm - 180HP/220lb-ft.
V8: 3000rpm - 150HP/270lb-ft.
4000rom - 250HP/295lb-ft.
And this isn't the miserable 3.8L. Closer to 100HP at 3000rpm - it's a very sluggish engine at low RPMs, especially when pulling as heavy a vehicle as the Lucerne.
Accord will remain Honda's entry in the midsize sedan class but with the larger interior it can steal some sales away from Avalon, Altima and Azera.
Civic will still be Honda's entry in compact sedans.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
So how can you state that it will remain their mid-size entry when someone else is stating it will be considered a large sedan for 2008???
Have you noticed, the Civic has been getting bigger and bigger with each passing model year? Eventually...the Fit will grown from sub-compact to compact.
Today's compact sedan (class) is yesterday's midsizer (size) and today's sub-compact (class) is 10 years ago's compact (size). This is the trend throughout the auto industry, not just Honda.
With Accord big enough to be a large car but also not that big to be excluded totally from midsize it gives Honda a weapon to attack both markets. Honda really doesn't need a dedicated large sedan because 1. the market is really not growing and is small compare to midsize and compact 2. Honda is really not that big enough to support another low volume sedan in its lineup. I can see Honda to field a Genesis competitor in the future with SH-AWD but then that'll make the Acura TL/RL totally pointless.
Actually, it was pointed out that the Sonata isn't a large sedan. It was brought up in here before and shot down because someone pointed something out about something or other, can't remember exactly what it was.
Azera...irrelevant? Yeah, right! The Sonata can't touch the Azera!
Again, Honda is the only one without a legitimate large sedan competitor. Honestly, it sounds like this talk is making some folks nervous!
I say...either push the Accord up into the large sedan class, or...use the RL and make a Honda equivalent to compete in that class. Either way, Honda will be competing eventually.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The current Corolla is a 6-year-old design, I'll bet you when the new one comes next year it'll get considerably larger as well (BTW, the current one is about the same size as Civic). What about Elantra, I think it gets pretty big as well. Actually it's bigger than the current Civic in every category.
Elantra and Civic
So does that mean the Elantra is ready to take on Camry, Altima and its own big bro Sonata?
According to EPA's figure, if the '08 Accord is a large car then the Sonata is as well, no matter how you spin it.
Yes, it is bigger than the Civic, but not big enough to go into mid size sedan territory.
No...the Sonata will remain the competitor to the Camry. You're really going too deep with all of it. I only said that it would make sense for Honda to push the Accord up so that it would finally have a competitor. That being said, the Civic could be pushed up to compete with the Camry, Sonata and Altima.
Maybe, you need to have a talk with the EPA.
Correct, especially since the Sonata is 1.5 cu ft bigger than the Accord.
You are exactly correct. The torque in my '06 Impala SS is fabulous. Nothing can touch it for extreme smoothness combined with awesome power, certainly not any six cylinder motor!
Just for the record, the Sonata became a large car per EPA in Q1 2005, and the Accord in Q3 2007. Which car will be next? Mazda6 is next but I don't think it will get there. Which car is up for redesign after Mazda6?
On the other hand, some eyes might be opened if there were a comparison of the Accord & Azera; car for car, spec for spec, feature for feature and dollar for dollar in real world money.
Accent: compact per EPA / subcompact in competing class
Elantra: midsize per EPA / compact in competing class
Sonata: large per EPA / midsize in competing class
I don't think there is another lineup which offers the above, and to tie into this forum, despite the Azera being shorter than the Avalon, the interior volume + trunk space is the same IIRC.
By the way, there are only two midsize currently considered in the large car category per EPA. The Sonata and the new arrival - 08 Accord (louiswei is it true only without sunroof?). I thought the Optima would also share the stage but upon research it is a midsize, smaller than the Sonata, to my surprise. And a sidenote, the Optima is actually more related to the Elantra than the Sonata - something I didn't think it was right until I found out myself in person.
Back to your regular programming...sorry for the sidetrack...
When did the Azera get a horsepower bump allmet?
The Accord you want to compete with the Azera has 268 hp. The Azera's larger engine actually makes less horsepower; 263hp according to Hyundai's own website. Its other engine is a 3.3L, which makes 234hp, or loses to the Accord by 34hp.
Personally, I don't get all of this hoopla over getting the Accord into the full size discussion.
The Civic is WAY too small to compete as a midsizer. It has a 1.8L 4-cyl, smallish interior, and is clearly an economy car. The Accord is a midsize in most trim levels (EX, EX-L, EXV6, EX-L V6).
I know what you've said, "Honda doesn't have an entry in the large car field, but this Accord should be it and we should compare the Civic with Camry etc..." or something along those lines. Well, Honda doesn't have a full size truck, a truck-based SUV, or a full size SUV either. All things that Toyota offers. It doesn't have to have an entry in ALL classes to be competitive, ya know?
Hyundai has made it this far and only recently added a 3rd-row SUV and a minivan to its lineup. I don't see a V8 powered pickup, or a luxury car-brand coming from Hyundai either. It doesn't mean that they should have their vehicles try to be more than one thing.
Honda's Accord is made to be competitive with Camry, Altima, etc (anyone compared the power specs with Camry? They're identical!). Let's not make these cars into something they aren't, unless we do it to everyone (Sonata should be in here by in that case).
That's my personal take on things.
Nissan's 3.7 V6 is putting out 330 HP and Toyota's 2GR-FSE engine is rated at 315 hp. Both putting out more power and better FE than your 5.3 V8. As for smoothness I'll put the 2GR in any flavor (the tamer 2GR-FE in my Avalon or the FSE from the IS350) against ANY detroit V8.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I realize you are responding to Priggly and I am not really up on the Chevy SS, but I think we all sometimes start to compare apples and oranges here. The IS350 is RWD, weighs about 3500# and is about 20" shorter than the Lucerne. Also considerably more expensive than the CXS with any comparable equipment.
Have not yet had a chance to drive the new Avalon, but it is on my short list as the price is certainly more comparable and if it has anything near the quality of my wife's '02 Camry XLE will be a very nice car.
We all have different needs. Whatever I buy will not be used much on a daily basis as it will be my retirement car and used primarily for longer trips. Ride, quiteness, an easy to use NAV system, a good sound system, and trunk space are all considerations. City FE, not so much as we will continue to use the Camry (only has 45,000 miles on it) for banging around town.
While I would RATHER buy an American car, it is not so much a "Detroit" vs. Japanese thing as it is getting what will satisfy our needs at a reasonable price. Hell, if I had the money I'd buy a Lexus 430.
Without taking up too much space here and hijacking this forum, I was talking about the mechanical differences between the Sonata and the Optima looking from underneath both cars, which I had the opportunity.
Chrysler 300 4.9
Dodge Challenger 4.5
Dodge Charger 5.0
new Pontiac G8 (6.0L) 5.7
Pontiac GP (5.3L) 6.0
Also FE on the Impala SS is 14/21....
And as mentioned in another reply, there are many Euro and Asian 6's that are killers....