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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hey...I wasn't going against your point at all. There are plenty that believe that it costs less to own one over the other. Maybe that post will open a few other eyes as well.

    Did your Touring come with ever available option??? I'm just asking because that is was I plugged in.

    The Avalon just costs more when it comes to paying for it. If you got the same financing terms on both vehicles, say 2.9% and no money down...the difference between the two car notes would be maybe $40-$50/mo. So in that respect, it costs more to own a Toyota simply because it costs more initially.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yes, when evaluating actual cost to own, you also need to add the cost of financing the extra money for the more expensive car and it is also important to recognize that these more expensive cars certainly have those resale value advantages shrink as the car ages and the mileage goes up. Cost of financing BTW is considered in Edmund's/Intellichoice's 'cost to own' calculations, numbers incidentally that things like Avalons/Accords/Camrys do very well at despite costing more initially, amazing - it is possible to spend more and have it cost less - and this being the ultimate justification for buyers of these 'name' vehicles.
    My Touring BTW has about the only 2 options on it that were available at the time - a sunroof and a stereo upgrade, VSC wasn't an option at the time (thankfully). I paid $30.3K plus tax and title which also included a $1200.00 dealer 'profit pump' option package. It was only a few hundred off of sticker (or about $2 grand OVER invoice) - back in the spring of 2005, Avalons were hard to find and in high demand - if for no other reason than the 2GR engine that it came with. Unbeatable FE and power - something that still hasn't changed, 3 model years later!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If resale value is based on purchase price, then why don't dealers ask what you paid for the car upon trade in???

    The price you paid doesn't change the resale value, it changes the amount you end up losing in the end.

    Yes...when a company starts offering huge discounts and incentives...THAT can affect the resale value of the car because the initial new car value is driven down. However, for the sake of an argument. Say someone goes in to buy a new Taurus today and pays $28K for it with no incentives or discounts. Then someone else goes a month later and buys the very same model and gets that $6K discount and pays only $22K for it. If the car is only worth $18K after 3 years, who do you think is taking the bigger hit? I mean, the first person paid $30K, but that doesn't mean he'll get more back than the person that only paid $22K for it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    yeah...if you want to go into great detail over it. I was just offering a basic overview. And even with financing...that's subjective because not everyone is going to get the same financing deal in every situation.

    I mean...say you have A1 credit and you get financed at 2.9% and someone walks in with jacked up credit and gets slapped with 19% on the interest rate (personally, he/she would be a fool to buy a $30K car at 19%). Do you see what I'm saying? Those calculations that are offered are for that perfect world, not the real world.

    So...if you were able to get all the options available, the price would have been closer to that $34K mark I mentioned.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    then why don't dealers ask what you paid for the car upon trade in???
    I think we're finally getting close here - the reason why they don't ask is because they don't care and they KNOW what they can get for it reselling it. On late model trades specifically, what they can get for it is directly related to what a new one costs and that number continually changes as the manufacturers change their prices to meet market conditions. The cheaper anything gets to buy new, the more the resale value must suffer - and yes the opposite can be true as well.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Exactly, so the price you paid, has nothing to do with what a dealer is going to give you for it. It's based on the MARKET value of said vehicle. THAT...is the point I've been trying to make.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    so the price you paid, has nothing to do with what a dealer is going to give you for it
    of course not, although what you and everybody else pays for something does have a whole lot to do with what you and everybody else might be willing to pay for it with a few thousand miles on it. Enough of this, this conversation is definitely going in circles :cry:
    The Avalon Touring BTW will sticker for $35k if you include a now $4k option package that now includes NAV (as well as the sound system upgrade and sunroof), something also recently made available. I would imagine, given the Avalon's popularity and the dealer's propensity to take advantage of such things, that it is probably hard to find one that you are not starting to 'work down' from $36 or $37.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Right...that's market value. ;)

    That is what I was going on...like I said, I was using a fully loaded Azera vs. a fully loaded Avalon.

    Personally, I only paid $26,081 for my Azera. At the time, deals weren't available because I bought when it first came out. Considering that fact and the fact that they were talking about it would retail for close to $30k. I'm don't feel bad for paying what I paid.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and neither do I, despite paying damn close to sticker! Why? Because more and more folks are out there paying $34 or $35 for them, making the value of my 3 year old model better and better. If instead, the Touring was now being sold for say the $27.5k (invoice at that time) then I would have some cause to 'review' my investment choices (my resale value would drop) - as it is with the model selling at let's say an average of $34k (your number) all the better - for me ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I will definitely keep that value constant!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    LOL and Ha-ha, you might end up with the worlds first 10 year old, 200k Azera that is still worth $18k?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    At the rate I drive, I might have 200K miles at 8 years!

    To be honest, I didn't feel like I took too much of a bath when I traded my '02 Sonata in for the Azera. I paid $16,800 for it and at trade in 4 years/105k miles later...I got $5K for it. Considering the mileage and the fact that it had been in a small fender bender (damage was repaired). I think I did okay!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I think I did okay!
    and THAT is all that really counts- isn't it?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yikes. $17k to $5k.

    With a $17,900 (MSRP in the $19s) 1996 Accord LX (mid-level 4-cyl Auto), I think I could still get $4k by selling privately. I have 175,000 miles on it. That makes an extra $2,000 drop for 6 years and 73,000 miles of driving. A friend of mine was asking $4,000 for his 1994 with 201,000 miles. It has been in two wrecks as well; one that opened the airbags.

    I REALLY am not trying to open this old can of worms, just pointing out how things like resale can still make a difference. Hopefully (and I'd guess PROBABLY) your Azera will fare better.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    11 year old Accord with 175K, good condition I assume despite the wrecks - 4 grand? Not from this sucker! And I love Accords!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hey, not from this sucker either, and I drive three of them on a regular basis!

    I'd be the seller, not the buyer!!!

    It's amazing what people will pay for an old Honda in good condition. It still delivers 27-28MPG in mixed driving, although lately I'm down to 24 MPG (my commute has added a lot more city driving).

    All accessories work with the exception of the Right Rear PDL, and it runs to 6,000 RPM with the smoothness of a car half its age. :)

    I wouldn't buy it, but check the papers, I wouldn't be the only one asking this kind of money. I read in the Birmingham News where one was for sale, a 1997 LX with 161k miles. They were asking $4,695.

    CRAZY! But good news for me, right? ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Birmingham,Alabama I assume - craziness a condition of folks from that part of the country? And yes, great news for you.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Birmingham,Alabama I assume - craziness a condition of folks from that part of the country? And yes, great news for you.

    Yes, Birmingham, Alabama. And it depends on your idea of crazy. We're a red state, are part of the bible belt, and revolve around the Alabama and Auburn football seasons for three months out of the year.

    So, are we crazy? That's for you to decide. (Yes, I voted Republican for governor [haven't gotten to vote for a Pres. yet), yes, I'm a Born-Again Christian who attends a Southern-Baptist church, and yes, there is a University of Alabama tag on the front of my Honda!).

    I'm not here to preach though, so I won't go into any of those three subjects since they're unrelated here!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    no, no, no - craziness in the sense of buying ANY car that is 11 years old and with 175K on it (for almost any amount of money) is flat out zonkers - keeping political, collegiate, and religuous affliations out of it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree that it is crazy. And, it is now 12 years old! :) For me I hope it'll be crazy all the way to the bank!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,906
    "I see them making great strides in the next few years and surprising a lot of folks. The Azera is a start."

    I agree, I hope they keep putting pressure on the rest of the auto makers because we will all benefit from better cars. Just look at some of GM's new offerings (Acadia triplets, Aura, Malibu, CTS) light years ahead of anything they have offered in 15 years. I am also anxiously awaiting the Hyundai Genesis, if it is as good as all the hype they will have a winner.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes, but we're talking 4 years (to the day almost) and 105K miles!!! Factor that in.

    If I had sold privately...I could have probably gotten $6,500 for it! *grin*

    Honestly, I'm not worried about the resale value on my Azera...I plan on keeping it till the wheels fall off.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and if you do (kkep it until the wheels fall off) and have minmal problems with it, then you will have certainly made a good choice. One suggestion for you though, drive it back to the dealer BEFORE the wheels fall off - it'll be worth more to them that way ;)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    "We're a red state, are part of the bible belt, and revolve around the Alabama and Auburn football seasons for three months out of the year".

    Just curious about what this, and old Accords have to do with "Mainstream Full Size Sedans". Neither belong here.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    "Just curious about what this, and old Accords have to do with "Mainstream Full Size Sedans".
    Neither belong here."

    Couldn't agree more! Gee wiz . . Patricia and/or Karen must be on vacation together. :confuse:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, neither of us is here 24/7 - surprise!

    Those who feel like comments are off-topic really don't help things by adding more off-topic comments.

    Let's get back to the subject.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    and I only need 4.5qt in my Maxima
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL If I do anything with the car, it may be turning it over to one of my daugthers as they will be of driving age by then. Of course, that depends on what condition the car is in at that time.

    Then again, I am toying with the idea of possibly trading it in on the new Genesis when they finally hit the showrooms. It's a hard choice because I really do love my Azera (not to mention, it's paid for too). Living with no car note is SWEET!!!
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Just rolled over 20K on my 07 Azera. Not ready for brakes yet, but I am curious about the ceramic pads. Perhaps you could throw some info about them into the Azera Service thread. I also find it interesting how many people that hit this group regularly are using synthetic oil (me too), regardless of which car we bought. I wonder how much being a little more car crazy drives up the percentages that use the syn stuff?

    Just did another drive (Denver-KC). Got 29+MPG at a fairly steady 75+ speed, so not quite in the Avalon category. I would have expected about 30-31 under similar circumstance (based on my old AV). But boy, is it a nice ride, and I do like the ESC (electronic stability control) on the Azera. But, I had the VSC on my Avalon, too.

    I have a good friend back in KC that has an 06 Chry 300. He will not be appearing on this forum to discuss the merits of his purchase. Although under warranty, it has been in for transmission problems, numerous squeaks and rattles, and a broken trunk lock. Other than that, he likes the looks, lol.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    20K miles...nah, you shouldn't need brakes. I had to replace mine at about 35K miles (fronts). The rears needed to be replaced at about 39K miles. I think these wear more evenly than on past cars because of the ESC employing the rear brakes when turns are too aggressive to keep the car on track. As soon as I heard the sensor squealing, I didn't hesitate and changed 'em out.

    The ceramic pads just do a better job of keeping brake dust off the wheels and they last a bit longer than the semi-metallic ones too. I had used them on my Sonata and they never proved to be a problem. Some folks will tell you that they will tear the rotors up. They can, but you would have to be doing some extreme driving to make that happen.

    I only paid $24 for the rear ceramic brake pads from an internet store Rock Auto Auto Parts If I recall, the front ceramic pads were like around $40 for the set.

    Replacing them was a snap...took longer to jack the car up and remove the wheel than it did to loosen the caliper, swap the pads and put the caliper back on!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    jaymajic's comment about his friend and his apparent problems with his 300 (300C I'm guessing), also reminds me that the Impala SS has also achieved the infamous 'black circle' from CR and might also indicate that these 'new' RWD V8 Aussie models (like the GTO) be approached with caution. Both companies have been producing small block V8s like this for years and years - but 'black circle' ratings tend to happen with reliability/engine issues. Makes no sense, unless we are having a replay of those famous problems Cadillac had back in the earlier 90s with V8-6-4 or for some reason, GM can't produce a multi spd. tranny that'll handle the extra torque. Anybody shed some light on what kind of problems folks are having, because the V6 models seem to be doing better? This is the most logical competition for things like the Genesis, but it sure beginning to sound like 'Detroit' will be leaving the door wide open - again!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    PS another possibility - CR is intentionally finding things to gripe about because the FE of the V8s isn't exactly politically correct these days.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Unless the V8 is over 340HP I don't see much point choosing a V8 over V6 now-a-day.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    louis - you would think that if you can rather easily get 300hp out of a 3.5 liter Toyota engine or Cadillac engine, that something like 400hp out of 5-6 liters ought to be 'easy' (SRT8) although it is all that torque produced by the extra displacement and pushrods, and of course that wonderful V8 rumble, that make these cars so attractive - FE be damned. It just confuses me that GM/Chrysler should be having so many problems with something like V8s, it is what they have been historically good at and the reliabilities of most of the Trucks/Suvs so equipped is TMK not that bad. I sure have had relatively good luck with them over the years.
  • xscoutxscout Member Posts: 141
    CR looks at many things to determine the color of their circles. I recall having two vehicles in a row that they gave the black circle to and I drove one for four years and the other for thirteen years never needing anything other than routine maintenance.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Torque you say? All the new generation high feature V6s from GM, Nissan, Honda and Toyota all have torques around 260 lb-ft with the 2GR-FSE at 277. It has been reported that the DI version of the 2GR is easily capable to be tuned to deliver around 350 HP. At that rating I wouldn't be surprise to the the torque to be around 300 lb-ft.

    V8 rumble eh? Go try Nissan's VQ35. Want a high screaming V6? Honda has that taken care of. Don't like both but want ultimate refinement? Toyota's 2GR is the one for you. With cases like these, I just don't see the point of "low feature" V8s anymore.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,906
    "I just don't see the point of "low feature" V8s anymore"

    They are a selling point. The old mine is bigger than yours theory. There are several people who just don't realize what a modern V6 is capable of. Just look back through this discussion. It has come up plenty of times. The V8 does have one advantage over the modern V6s: low end torque. I will always contend that the V6s spool up faster and its a wash.... but different strokes. The FE penalty for the V8 doesn't make up for its benefit IMO.

    "Don't like both but want ultimate refinement? Toyota's 2GR is the one for you"

    Absolutely ;)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • djm2djm2 Member Posts: 712
    Hi All:
    A 2007 Kia Amanti with the following options, (packages); ---Gl Pkg.,KP Pkg., SR Pkg., & EC Pkg. has an MSRP of $31,575, INVOICE of $28,550 and a TMV, (less $1,000 rebate), of $28,346
    QUESTION: ---- You can purchase an XLE - V6 Toyota Camry for almost the same amount, and have a better resale value after three (3) years of ownership. Why purchase the Kia Amanti????? Please educate me!!!!!
    Best regards. ----- Dwayne :shades: :confuse: ;):)
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    Dwayne, your question should be: Why consider the Kia Amanti at all? :confuse:
    Is it as good as the fully loaded Azera which has approximately the same MSRP even
    when equipped with the extra cost Powered Pearl White finish at $200 extra,
    but can be purchased for approximately $2K less than the Kia Amanti.

    The Kia probably does suffers more than the Azera when it comes to resale value.

    You are most likely correct when you talk about the better resale value of the XLE Camry after
    three years, BUT remember this: You must live with that Camry for those three years!
    I'm hearing that most T's are not as dependable as they once were.
    Also, I do not believe that the new Camry will run as well as the Azera, nor is it as nice to begin with.

    Your choice for sure. It is entirely up to you.

    :)
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    It also depends on how large of car you want. The Azera is a full size sedan, as large as the Avalon. If you need more car, then the Azera or Avalon are your choices.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Why purchase anything? Let's have everyone in the world purchase a Camry and call it a day - only color choice - beige :)

    I assume you are a Toyota owner, and from your Camry vs. Azera/Amanti posts, you seem to be a Camry owner. I think a lot of people have already told you the differences between the three cars. You might want to lay off infecting the Camry in this thread with your bias, unless this is your way justifying the price you paid for your Camry ;)

    And just to reiterate, the Camry really doesn't have any place in this discussion thread. Is it mainstream large sedans? Nope.

    If you brought up to Sonata, or the current Accord (without the sunroof), you might have some qualifications, as they are classified as large sedans.

    Are we going to see any more Camry vs. [insert large sedans here]? :)
  • anthonyaanthonya Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone on the board know if "civilians" can order a 9C1 or 9C3 police impala? I've got a lot of radio and electronic equipment I want to install in my car and the police impalas have a lot of options to do this.
  • djm2djm2 Member Posts: 712
    Good Morning Joe97:
    I reviewed you posting with great interest. Kindly be advised that I have parked my 2007 Camry XLE side by side with a 2007 Toyota Avalon, and there is very little difference in the size, or the avaiable cabin room when comparing the two vehicles. Yes, the Avalon looks better in terms of trim, but the XLE is also a very nice vehicle. Comparing a XLE Camry to an Amanti or an Azera is valid! I would strongly suggest that you look at the two vehicles side by side, and then "get back to me"!
    Best regards. ------ Dwyane :shades: :confuse: ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And since you mentioned it, why purchase a Camry XLE when you can get an Avalon for just a little more dough? If comparing a Camry XLE to the Azera/Amanti is valid, then why not an Avalon? Why not a Five Hundred/Taurus? To you, all of them have "very little difference in the size, or available cabin room" when compared to the Camry. With all due respect, it clearly shows you have not been in many of the large sedans. Take a sit through, take a drive around, and you would notice the vast differences between the midsize and the large sedans. For god sakes, the Sonata, which actually is a competitor of the Camry, has more interior and trunk space than the Camry.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    Aren't the Camry and Avalon based on a Camry-sized basis? The Avalon was based on the earlier Camry and the 2007 Camry is on a relatively new design? And the Toyota ES models fit on there too. Right? Wrong?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Camry, Avalon, Sienna, Highlander, Lexus ES, RX all underpin the same platform, albeit modified/stretched on some variations.
  • djm2djm2 Member Posts: 712
    Hi joe97:
    Prior to purchasing the 2007 Camry, I took a test ride in a Sonata. It was a nice vehicle, but it was not of the same quality as the Camry. The Camry is more like a Lexus.
    Just my opinion. ----Best regards. ----- Dwayne :shades: ;):)
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    And the difference in price between the Sonata and the Camry was???????
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Dwyane,

    I have a friend , who has 07 camry xle. Great car, excellent engine but there are thing missing in it for example memory seats. Large cars back few years ago had this option.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Certainly not build quality. The 07+ Camry is the first sign of slips in the many models of Camry I can remember, going back a few generations.

    Again, if space is high on the purchase criterion, which I imagine the case for most large sedan prospective shoppers, the Camry wouldn't even make the list, the Avalon would. If you hadn't notice the difference in size, then it may be time to have a look. The price of a Camry XLE maybe similar to that of an Azera, an Amanti, or others, but I can also get a minivan, a truck, a CUV/SUV, for similar pricing. This is why automakers build different entries in different segments. Do cross-shopping happen? of course, but the majority generally shop within the same segment - Azera, Amanti, Avalon, Five Hundred/Taurus, and other LARGE sedans.
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