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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I understand what you're saying and I agree, as you saw from my previous statement that unless you have the R/T (or SRT-8), the Charger (Magnum or 300) just isn't worth it.

    It's sad that it takes an American V-8 to contend with a Korean V-6. However, from an equipment standpoint...the two are not equal. This discussion didn't start out intially as a performance issue, rather a value issue and to get a good comparison between them...you need to build them up the same, that means V-6 for V-6, even if they don't perform the same.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Well, there goes the end of model year rebates.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Nah...they'll still offer rebates, they'll just cut more jobs to make up the difference!
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Oh, I don't know. I assume you drive a car with a dull gray paint job, painted steel wheels, rubber mats on the floor, cheap vinyl interior? Numbers are nice but there's got to be some kind of visual appeal in the selection process, sometimes to overwhelm a 1/2 second in performance or few hundred $$$ in price/value. There's a shop foreman at our facility who alternates driving his "yellow bee" Charger and his Harley. He would probably rather be seen peddling a tricyle to work than driving a Hyundai. But that was HIS appeal-choice. I'm always surprised at how defensive, and then offensive, Azera owners are when their car choice is criticized. No need to be embarrassed. That was YOUR choice.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I really don't think it's an issue of being offended or defending a choice over what vehicle was selected. Everyone is going to have their own personal reasons as to why they purchased a particular vehicle. The only time anyone should feel "stuck" with a vehicle is if they didn't do their homework before purchasing and ended up getting taken for a ride. Some folks take a quick spin around the block and feel that's all they needed to see. However, if they had spent a little more time in the car, they may have found issues that affect them such as seating, ride comfort and other things that really only come up once you get over the initial appeal that the Azera is actually a Hyundai.

    There's a lot of folks that went into buying and Azera with one eye open. Sure, they knew of Hyundai's past, but they couldn't deny the appeal the car had. Then, when one tiny, miniscule issue comes up...they want to bash the car and make it seem like it was the worst decision they ever made in their life. The same can happen for ANY make and model of car.

    Case in point, I was filling up one day at a local gas station and a guy filling up is Cadillac SRX was inquiring as to what I thought of my Azera. After telling him how long I've had it, how many miles it had and the lack of problems I had with it, he proceeded to tell me that his Caddy had 55K miles on it and had been giving him problems.

    Honestly, it's not really the vehicle it's self that's the real problem. The problem is the customer service that is lacking at so many dealership service departments. Sadly, it seems that is Hyundai's glaring black eye. I mean, if an owner pops up with a problem and they seem to fix it in an expeditious manner, I bet you...the owner would have little to say about the problem at all. However, Hyundai's lackadasical approach to dealing with owner issues only intesifies the problems because the owners anger only snowballs until he/she is mad at the world. Then as soon as someone says something negative about the car, they are quick to jump in and literally dump on it themselves.

    Then you have the folks that get on here and bash a Hyundai product without ever setting foot (or butt in this case) in one to take it for a test drive. They are basing all their comments on the knowledge they have of Hyundai's past products. A guy that works with me was that very way, until he rode in my Azera. His opinion quickly changed and he doesn't think so lowly of Hyundai as he once did. Sure, he's still going to be skeptical, but...not shut off to the idea that Hyundai can actually make a good product.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Alexstore...that must be YOUR rating there. Funny...nobody else seems to think it's worth talking about! LOL Whoever it was...the Maxima is no longer king, it's more like the prince in the Nissan line-up. The Altima has replaced it on the throne...for now! ;)

    I will say this much...that Altima coupe is one stylish ride. :blush:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It's sad that it takes an American V-8 to contend with a Korean V-6.
    Yep, 'Detroit' seemingly has some difficulty producing power competitive smaller engines - always have. However, I would suggest to you that the non AWD Taurus (0-60 6.8?) and perhaps even a 3.6 liter Lacrosse will run right up there next to your Azera all just a smidge behind the Maxima and Avalon. Relatively 'quick' territory by almost any definition. The sad part of the American V8 story is that even though this is what Detroit is supposedly good at, both of those gas hog V8s in the 300 and Impala SS are suffering in the reliability dept. :sick:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I would suggest to you that the non AWD Taurus (0-60 6.8?)

    Where'd that number come from?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I shouldn't have been so specific in saying Korean V-6, because it's across the board in that American V-8's are needed to contend with foreign V-6's. Heck...there's some import 4 bangers that'll run some American V-6's into the ground as well. How's that for grossly lacking! :surprise:

    You're absolutely correct. So imagine how lethargic the American V-6's must feel in comparison! LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Car and Driver in their new cars issue (Sept.?) in a small review of a Taurus Limited FWD. Keep in mind though that CD seems to be some sort of champion when it comes to extracting the lowest 0-60s possible. The same magazine had the Avalon at 6.0, the Maxima at 6.1, and the Azera at 6.5 all numbers that I am sure that most of us could and would not duplicate. We 'like' our cars too much! ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    They probably ran the tests with as little gas in the tank as possible, no windshield washer fluid, removed the spare tire and floor mats (hey, trying to make it as light as possible) and made sure the test driver weighed less than 150 lbs.!!! LOL
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Oh, I don't know. I assume you drive a car with a dull gray paint job, painted steel wheels, rubber mats on the floor, cheap vinyl interior? Numbers are nice but there's got to be some kind of visual appeal in the selection process, sometimes to overwhelm a 1/2 second in performance or few hundred $$$ in price/value. There's a shop foreman at our facility who alternates driving his "yellow bee" Charger and his Harley. He would probably rather be seen peddling a tricyle to work than driving a Hyundai. But that was HIS appeal-choice. I'm always surprised at how defensive, and then offensive, Azera owners are when their car choice is criticized. No need to be embarrassed. That was YOUR choice.

    In reply to my post:

    "Worst logic. ever."

    in reply to your post:

    You left out the most important part: No matter what the difference in price or resale value, if you bought an Azera, at the end of the day you're stuck with...an Azera. That alone should be enough reason to buy the Charger, n'est-ce pas??

    FYI, I don't drive an Azera (nor any Hyundai), I don't drive a Charger (nor any Dodge). I just pointed out how ignorant your comments were. Hyundai owners are getting penalized because they drive an Azera?? - "at the end of the day you're stuck with...an Azera."

    Just by looking at the type of your posts, you probably have never driven a Hyundai, at least not one recently. There are reasons why Hyundai perform well when comes to owners satisfactions, customer loyalty and other similar categories.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I'll take any Azera over any Charger any day of the week.

    I had a Dodge Magnum for a weekend not long ago so I know how "at the end of the day you're stuck with...a Dodge" feels like.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    FYI, I don't drive an Azera (nor any Hyundai), I don't drive a Charger (nor any Dodge). I just pointed out how igorant your comments were. Hyundai owners are getting penalized because they drive an Azera?? - "at the end of the day you're stuck with...an Azera."

    Are you making a statement, reiterating what was already said, asking a question or what???
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Neither :)

    Exercising on the expansion of my previous post.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...sure, okay. I don't mind being stuck with my Azera...that's for sure!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Glad to hear!! That's what's most important, really, at the end of the day.

    The Azera and Charger appeal to two different crowd, one's FWD, and the other is RWD; both excels in certain areas and have shortcomings in other areas. Just trying to share my opinion on the other poster's narrow-minded comments, about being stuck with an Azera is enough of a reason to go with the Charger instead. (paraphrased)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're absolutely right in what you're saying. Personally, even though I love my Azera, I also love the Charger R/T's and SRT-8's...those are a couple of nasty machines to be honest...espeically for what they can be bought for. Heck, I'm even waiting for that new Pontiac G8 to dropp so I can check it out. There are really a lot of cars out there I like. Personally, if the Lucerne had a stronger engine...I might have had one of those instead of my Azera. At least I can say I jumped in with both eyes open when I made my decision.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    I love this inane discussion thread. Now as an Azera owner and fanatic, I must say that I could force myself to spend a day in a Charger SRT or similar Chrysler model. Now I wouldn't want to have to buy gas for the day, worry about tire replacement, or other real world issues, but I could live with the smell of burning rubber for a day -- if absolutely forced ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you know a little birdy once told me that if you braked the accelerator to just the point that the engine is really getting it on that a few tenths of 0-60 or quarter time is relatively easily saved. The same birdy also told me that if you do this kind of thing often enough that you could look forward to picking up pieces of your Tranny off the pavement.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The G8 will be an amazing machine whether it's V6 or V8, performance wise, since all the reviews indicate that this car is on par with the 5-series (again, performance wise). After seeing the photos I think the interior still looks bland and GMish to me. Maybe it's better than the current Pontiacs but that's really not saying much.

    Charger on the other hand is worthless with V6 engine. The only way to enjoy it is with the Hemi V8 and that's if one can overlook that horribly designed interior.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    image

    This is just amazing!! Pontiac finally will have a winner in its lineup.

    Source: Autoblog
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Charger on the other hand is worthless with V6 engine
    sure about that? this would be the models that DON'T seem to have as many mechanical problems - can provide some semblance of reasonable FE -although a friend with a V6 300 was overjoyed with 23mpg highway. I didn't have the heart to tell him that my Avalon might have cracked 30mpg on the same trip and further would blow his doors off. The V6 offers almost competitive power, less refinement and is of course RWD - if I could only get over the sensation of driving a big bathtub and yes the interior is an egronomic nightmare!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Let's look at the Charger's 2 V6 engines:

    2.7-Liter V6: 178 HP, 190 lb-ft
    3.5-Liter V6: 250 HP, 250 lb-ft

    I guess the 3.5L is okay but the 2.7L is just down right awful. IMO, with the type of car Charger is and given it's size and weight, any V6 under 300HP and V8 under 350HP is unacceptable. So yes, I think the Charger is worthless with V6 engines.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    You are absolutely correct: I've never driven a Hyundai. I don't find them attractive vehicles (though more attractive than the new BMW's I have to say), and since I'm blessed to be able to say money is not particularly an issue, I choose bling to blah. Coming from a family who lost members in WWII, buying foreign was always a dirty thought...so I prefer to buy American. I don't drive a Charger either (though I did have a company Intrepid which was a surprisingly enjoyable car--certainly better than the Taurus it replaced). My 2005 300C, though, is great. It cost me less than $30K, has a Kelly Bluebook retail value of $24K (not bad after 3 years), and will give me 28 mpg on the highway if I keep it below the MDS cutoff of 75mph. (And I do chuckle on the usual comment about the bathtub feel. The previous Taurus had that feel too--bigger widows maybe but you sat deep in the car, and the Mustang has always been that way....).
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    same situation, but place Maxima and Avalon, they both have a v6 but smaller displacement and still they beat Azera 0-60
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    The old 3.8 in the lower level Lucerne is OK but a bit rough - good hiway milage though. The V8 is reminiscent of days of old - great low end torque and smooth acceleration. The CXS also has a great HK sound system and remains high on my list.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The old 3.8 in the Lucerne makes less horsepower than ANY engine that size that I can think of, in fact, some 4-cylinder engines have more passing power. Getting less than 240hp and 240 lb-ft from a 3.8L engine is bad. Getting less than 200 hp is just pathetic.

    Almost any car can get good highway mileage with a crazy-high top gear. Look at the Corvette with 400hp.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    louis - no argument about the 2.7, Chrysler ought to think twice before they ask 178hp to pull damn near 2 tons. Talk about a natural for the rental car lots? The 3.5 will at least get the car down into the 7s. Of course, we could say almost the same thing about Buick. What is the 3.8 still doing in the Lucerne, guess the UAW won't let GM shutdown the engine plant that produces the thing so they had to use it for something?
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    Was not trying to be a cheerleader for the old 3.8, nor do I have any real problem for the modern 4 cyl packages (love my wife's '02 Camry XLE) - BUT I have to say that the almost automatic denigration of the 3.8 seems to border on the rediculous. My company car for several years was a 3.8 Bonneville, maybe one of the most comfortable and reliable cars I've had. I spend a good part of my life banging up and down the Jersey turnpike and the GS Parkway, some of the nastiest hi-speed traffic around. Yeah, you had to floor it to kick down, but I never had any lack of passing power.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    To be fair, the Nissan VQ and most recently the Toyota 2GR set the standards by which engines of this size and type should be judged - not only in power output but also in FE. Hyundai's 3.8 is a good effort, however, just lacking some of the sophistication of those two.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the 3.8 is damn near as old as I am - dating well back into the 60s as a Buick '231'. Except for some dubious flirtations with plastic intake manifolds it has generally been at least reliable - perhaps as it should be - GM has had 50 years to work on it! A web search on the 'Buick 231' will yield things like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine#Future_of_the_3800e:
    which traces its history thru its multiple renditions and also notes that next year it is finally scheduled to put out of its misery.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, you had to floor it to kick down, but I never had any lack of passing power.

    Which sounds like the engine struggled to move the car, to me. Either that, or the transmission is a terrible piece that works against the driver.

    I'm not trying to bash the engine itself. It was fine 10, 20 years ago. But it simply lacks the polish, the torque, and the horsepower to compete with more modern, smaller, and more efficient engines. I'm really knocking GM for not updating its engine package. Ford finally did with the Taurus. While it was overdue for them, at least they weren't the LAST ones offering such an engine in a vehicle.

    By the way, I'm a 4-cylinder guy, so I'm not a power-hungry kind of person. But for a 2.4L 166 hp engine in my car, I'd hope an engine 1.5x its size would make 1.5x its power, but the Lucerne doesn't come close. 30 more horses for an extra liter and a half of engine. Sure there's more torque, but when I need to merge, the horsies are what matter.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    My SC 3.8 has 163k mi on it and it is only controllable on clean dry pavement when aimed straight ahead (with TC turned off). The 240 HP, 282 ft-lb car pulled the 12 yr old 3690 lb car new past Hemi V8 Durango in most recent test of it's passing power. How much lighter is an Azera V6?
  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    We really have no arguement here. The 3.8 IS old and I suspect that it is in its last year of production. Will likely be replaced by the more modern 3.6 which by all accounts is a good engine - I only hope it is as indestructible. As I said, if I'm the one paying for it, will go for the V8.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    vic10 - I guess you don't know that the 300C is built on the old Mercedes E-class platform. So, in many respects you are driving a German car.

    I fully understand, and appreciate, your feelings re. WWII, but most cars today have an international influence. It's really difficult to find a truly all-American car now. Even Ford's Duratec engine is not a Ford design - it was a Porsche design, and Porsche sold all engineering drawings, and even some initial tooling, to Ford.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai's 3.8 will have 300hp on its RWD coupe; we'll see how these translate into the RWD luxury sedan and the facelift Azera. Promised to have improved fuel economy as well.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Yes, I suppose with the incestuous corporate relationships these days, in another few years there will be one recipe book of layouts and technology and each manufacturer will pick from that one list to define his/her own vehicles, be it German, Japanese, Korean, American, whatever. That is if the Chinese don't poison us all first....

    Actually if I were to pick one system on the 300C that I don't like it's the suspension, which is perhaps the most dominant Mercedes item. Too firm. Too noisy. Love that U.S. Hemi though....
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I doubt if anyone really is interested in doing what you describe at all really. I mean...if that's what they do for testing, so be it. However, real world driving...not happening. As hard as I have pushed my Azera at times, I'm not completely crazy!!! LOL
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    Your saying that the Charger is worthless because it has under 300HP.Well you just eliminated every car on this board so what your saying also is that all these cars are worthless.None of these cars have V6 with 300 HP.The weight is the same as the Azera, although the Charger is much larger on the outside then the Azera.As far as the 3.5 VS the 3.8 Azera.When I looked at the 3.8, HP and Torque,the first thing I noticed was the Torque was lower then the HP.Thats one thing against it,Second it not a High output Engine.You have 13HP over the 3.5,but the 3.5 is a high output engine.Its HP matches its torque which is good.Being High ouput means that it has High performance Heads,Intake and Exhaust manifolds,cams something the 3.8 doesn't have.My 3.5 is the same engine used in the Police cars.The 3.8 wouldn't last one year as a police car.I know this because I worked on Police cars 23 Yrs.I have had Borlas dual exhaust put on my Charger.That makes me pretty equal to the Azeras.I don't think I would have any trouble beating the Azera.Don't under estimate the 3.5.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have had Borlas dual exhaust put on my Charger.That makes me pretty equal to the Azeras.I don't think I would have any trouble beating the Azera.Don't under estimate the 3.5.

    You belittle the 3.8 in the Hyundai for an entire post and talk about all of this "High Output" mumbo jumbo, and then talk about how you have to modify your Chrysler mechanically to make it as good as the Azera. Something isn't adding up here xtec.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    I didn't do it to keep up with the Azera ,I could care less about the Azera.I did it to get better FE as well as boosting the power.it was a win each way.Like I said the 3.5 is more durable then the 3.8.After reading the Azera forums,I don't think I would tell A friend to buy one.The front suspension problem is enough for me not to recommend it to anybody.Oh thats another thing the Charger is better then the Azera FE.Before the Exhaust modification I was getting over 19 city,with the duals I have hit over 20 a few times all city.My main reason is because I don't see gas prices going down in the near future.I has nothing to with trying to compete,I am very pleased with my Charger and wouldn't swap for anything on this forum.If you don't believe me thats your problem thats the truth.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I never said your point WAS to keep up with the Azera, I said that I find it odd that you can knock the Azera and praise the "High Output" engine from Chrysler and then say only after the modifications would your V6 Charger keep up with the Azera.

    We get it, you don't feel the Hyundai engine is a durable as the Dodge (there's no evidenciary support that I've seen backing that claim, but you are entitled to your opinion and won't pursue that further).

    Is the 3.5L in the Dodge and Chrysler not the same engine that debuted with the 300M back when Clinton was in the White House?

    To compare a mechanically modified Charger to a stock Azera isn't a fair comparison, when you think about it. It's like comparing apples to applesauce. A comparison loses its importance when you start talking about modded cars. One is modified, one is left alone = not a fair fight.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    First of all the Azera has 13hp more then the Charger.They both are close to weight.There is something called horsepower to weight ratio.The Azera 13 horse advantage should make it faster.Now with equal horepower,my Charger would prevail because it is a hight output with better heads,intake,and exhaust manifolds.If you can't understand that,then I can't help you.This 3.5 is not the same 3.5 when they first came out with the Intrepid,and Concorde,or LHS.This engine came out in '98 and been improved since then.I had this engine in my '02 Intrepid SXT and was very pleased with the performance.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    :)

    For a mechanic who sez he has worked on Police units for 23 years,
    you sure don't know what you are talking about.

    Here in town, we have three new "Hemi" units, and two of 'em are broken down!

    You can't believe that just because your 3.5 makes noise, that it's faster!
    NO, it's only noisier.

    Isn't the 3.5 rear drive? Do you know how much power is lost spinning a long driveshaft?
    You think a 3.5 rear drive unit is faster than a 3.8 front wheel drive? Get real!

    My Azera is box stock, and I say, bring your chopped top police unit around.

    If you have been a mechanic for so long, you must have worked on the 9C1s.
    Compare your chopped-topped Dodge to one of them.
    Ask the older officers which car they preferred, the 9C1 or these new junk Dodges.

    Why did you make the broad statement that the Azera wouldn't last a year?
    Elaborate please.

    Carry on, and keep busy as I know you must, maintaining those Chyslers. :lemon:

    :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You don't have to talk down to me, I'm not trying to bash Dodge or promote Hyundai (I personally didn't care for either). You've just sort of contradicted your earlier statement, which is what I had responded to previously. That statement was:

    I have had Borlas dual exhaust put on my Charger.That makes me pretty equal to the Azeras.

    Deductive reasoning would say Borlas improve performace. You said "that," meaning the Borlas I presume, makes you pretty equal to the Azera. If I assume that performance was less on your charger BEFORE the Borlas were installed, then performance must have been less than equal to the Azera.

    In other words, your argument implied the Azera would be better than the Charger before the Borlas.

    These are family sedans, I realize. I'm just trying to understand your argument.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    You DON"T know what your talking about.They had a show about Police cars and the best one was a Mopar and always will be.I worked on Fords,Chevies,and neither one could take the beating the Mopars took,I think I have more experience then you.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    Your are somebody WHO doesn't know how to read a message board and puts in what you want it to say.I can't get through to you and no sense arguing with you.I dont care if Im equal with everycar on the planet,sorry to bust your bubble,but the Azera had NOTHING to do with my DECISION to put the Borla exhaust on,it something we talked about on the Charger board ,And some of us decided to add it on.Your making it a bigger deal then it is .Just leave it at that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Your are somebody WHO doesn't know how to read a message board and puts in what you want it to say.

    I haven't done anything to be talked down to, but telling me I don't know how to read a message board just doesn't make any sense. Putting in what I want to say? All I did was repeat what you said and then ask you about it further.

    I dont care if Im equal with everycar on the planet,sorry to bust your bubble,but the Azera had NOTHING to do with my DECISION to put the Borla exhaust on,it

    I never said the Azera had anything to do with your decision to put a Borla exhaust on your Charger. You brought up the Borla exhausts and how they made your car pretty equal with the Azera. I replied to your post asking about it, and I got a very unfriendly response.

    You aren't bursting my bubble, as I have no stake in seeing Dodge or Hyundai succeed.

    ANYWAY, can you drop the personal attacks please? Maybe we can talk about the vehicles? Do you really feel the Charger was not equal with the Azera before you modified it, or was your first post I responded to made in error? That's all I've wanted to find out, and I'll I've gotten is verbally beaten up.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    :)

    You think, but how little you know!

    When will you learn? I have worked on the 9C1s more than you have.

    Ever hear of the WX3? Bet you have not. You name it, and I did it.

    Went though four motors and three trannies.

    Supercharged, 52 mm throttle body, custom made after-market heads, various cams,
    A S & M headers, a bigger diameter custom made driveshaft, widened factory rear
    wheels with 315/35s, custom programmed ECU to name a few. 3.73s, 9C1 springs.
    It's been more than ten years; I'm sure I forget some things.

    Forgot the best part. The WX3 is the 94-96 Impala SS which was based on the 9C1 don't you know? I'll bet you did not. But that's right, you're the professional mechanic.

    So don't tell us about your chopped top Dodge that you can't even see out of properly.
    Bet the tall officers simply love 'em for that. :confuse:

    Many cities are still driving the old 9C1s, the last of which was produced in 1996 because they are probably the best police unit produced in the last twenty years, bar none!

    Carry on, and keep on wrenching.
    Forget trying to argue cars with an old timer who probably
    has forgotten more than you know about cars!

    :)
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