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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    How about that Pontiac G8?

    (Changing the Subject from this H.O. mess)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Oh...I have said that will be a great American V-6 already. Along with the one being used in the upcoming Cadillac CTS (just over 300 hp). They're catching on...the question will now be durability and FE.

    I'm curious to see if the Hyundai will be tuning the current 3.8 any differently when they drop it in the Genesis for the V-6 variant. I believe the G-8 and the Genesis will be great competition for each other to be honest. From what I've read about both...they will be pretty equally matched in almost every way...even down to pricing. I would love to see Hyundai do well in this segment, Pontiac has proven to hold their own with the likes of the Grand Prix GTP. Too bad the GTO didn't do so well, that was a monster of a stock car, especially for the price!!!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis (BK) coupe V6 will have more than 300 hp
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Look no further to the upcoming Genesis/BH, which you will find adjustable suspension, for starters.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    The 3.6 in your SUV is the same 3.6 as in the Aura, new Malibu, and CTS, just different states of tune.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    And without the DI technology.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    After the initial sales spurt was over, the GTO languished on dealer lots. The last version had the 400HP Corvette motor, and could be had for under $35K.
    IMO the lack of popularity was due to the fact that it was large and heavy for a 2 door, and the trunk space was limited by the fact that to pass US crash regs, the car had a fuel bladder in the trunk.
    The car was resented by the Classic GTO nuts, even though it would run circles around them.
    The new Pontiac G8 holds a lot of promise, although in typical Pontiac fashion, they gave it a boy racer look with those fake hood scoops - IMO, that's a turnoff if they expect it to compete in the near luxury class.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    True, though the non DI version is still standard in the CTS. Anyone know if the GM 3.6DI is available anywhere except in Cadillacs?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Oh, it's definitely tuned differently and with more torque too. The Aura/Malibu version is only putting out 250-ish hp, the Outlook/Acadia/Enclave version is pushing 270 hp or 275 hp if you have the dual exhaust.

    If Saturn/Chevy put the 270 hp version (with different toque of course) into the Aura/Malibu...WHOA!!!

    I'd love to see a Redline version of the Outlook with the 306 hp!!! Off da chain!!!!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, I had heard the what's and why's of the GTO's fall. I had always told my wife if I were to get a sports car, the GTO would have been it for me! ;)

    Well...now that I have a family, I'll have to look towards the likes of the Genesis or G-8...both look to be quite promising in offering performance and yet, family practicality.

    The GT version of the G-8 clearly doesn't have a luxury performance sedan look, but maybe seeing it in person...it may look better.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    :)

    Only one exhaust! :surprise:
    Two mufflers but there is only one exhaust pipe, and that
    one pipe is then split and goes to the two mufflers.

    I think that the Azeras would be better off to save the heavy weight of that
    extra muffler and go the way the Amanti does with only one muffler.
    Those suckers have to be heavy don't you know? :confuse:

    If you have the chance, look under the front end and see all the twists and turns
    that the exhaust must make before it starts its journey back to those mufflers. :(

    :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I guess the same can be said that if I drive your Charger I could find many problems that you didn't notice. For starter, how about the craptaculour interior fit-'n-finish and material? Azera has one of the best interiors in the segment and Charger has the worst. That's a big enough reasons for me not to put the car in my consideration list.

    I guess I am also the one guilty of "bashing" the GM3800 in the past. However, I said it like the way it is. The GM3800 is a dinosaur and one of the worst V6 offered in this segment (the worst being the 2.7 Chrysler V6, I mean come on, now a days a "HO" I4 can beat it easily). The 3.5 V6 on the Charger is much better than that.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    :)

    There have been many thousands of Azeras built since February 26, 2007.
    I'll state that any older vehicle that qualified for the TSB that changes the shocks
    and ALL of those built after February 26, 2007 have no problem whatsoever.
    Drive any vehicle built after Hyundai started with the new 54611-3L040 shocks or
    any Azera built before December 5, 2005 and you will see a World of Difference!

    Those of us who have the Azeras don't need any stinking MBZ designed suspension.
    Anyone who thinks that their whatever has the identical
    suspension as a Mercedez Benz is simply mistaken.
    Do you think that Chysler is going to spend for those expensive components?
    Show me those expensive Bilsteins on your Chysler product please. ;)

    If you think that Azeras won't handle, read what they can and will do by manhoot.
    He does not speak of any late Mopars giving him fits! :surprise:

    See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqRJrqI5DkU

    Carry on and enjoy whatever ride you have.

    :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Xtec...you're so funny!!! The 3.8 is not listed as an HO engine and that's the whole point. It's NOT an HO engine and yet...it offers more output than the Mopar 3.5.

    To clarify...the Mercedes platform you refer to is merely the chassis, not the suspension. Nice try though. As far as the suspension goes on the Azera...it's a limited problem and not every Azera owner experiences it. You're right, the Mercedes suspension is much better than what is on the Azera, as well as what's on the Charger. The front end suspension isn't being re-designed, just upgraded to be even better. What's wrong with that?

    Oh...simply adding a factory dual exhaust would not net you the gains needed to make the 3.5 kick out the power of the 3.8. As you stated, you added a Borla system to make that happen, which is less restrictive than any factory exhaust. I say this because the Saturn Outlook I own gives you a choice. If you get the model with the single exhaust, the engine puts out 270 HP. If you get the package that offers dual exhaust, the power only goes up to 275 HP.

    Finally, you're wrong yet again. I've NEVER spoken on the GM 3800 as I've had no experience with it. Oh...other than dusting an 88 Bonneville SSEI with a '92 Tempo GLS! LMAO Now THAT was funny!!!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    "The only thing I don't like about the interior choices on the Azera is that you can't choose if you want dark or light "wood grain" in a particular color scheme"

    Funny... many Avalon owners including myself complain about the same thing. I like beige interiors but didn't get it on my Av because of the blond color wood. I ended up with the dark grey to get darker wood. Toyota changed the wood for '08 and it looks much better than either of the two previous colors.

    As for the two tone seats, saw a new Sable the other day with two tone grey leather. It was pretty sharp.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    Here is a youtube video of an Avalon VS a Hemi Charger with full Borla Exhaust. Naturally, the Charger beats it. However, its closer than one would expect.

    Charger Vs Avalon

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    And you say that's the Charger with the Hemi V-8 AND Borla exhaust??? LMAO
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...that blonde color "wood" just wasn't doing it for me. Against the black interior, it just looked too bright!

    I'm hoping the seats will look better with the darker inserts. I've seen a few cars like that and I think it looks slick.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I mean...you sure it's not the Charger SE with the SXT package sporting the 3.5 HO V-6 with a Borla exhaust???
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Just watched the video, the sound of it does seem like it's from a V8 Charger instead of the 3.5 V6.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    If you read the comments under the video it is definately the HEMI. The vehicle is driven by a friend of the Avalon driver.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    0-30 both Avalon and Maxima will keep up and beat Hemi Charger, but beyond 60 mph Hemi will beat both
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the logical answer to this apparent contradiction (the Hemi should easily outrun the Avalon) is likely traction/stability control interfering with those acceleration runs on the Chrysler product - reference the summer 05 comparo that C&D did and the negative impact that 'electronic nannies' had on even a V6 model. The ease of which the Hemi would break its rear wheels loose and the traction control system's reaction to that (cutting throttle) could lead to results that otherwise don't make a whole lot of sense - after all if one is willing to spend that much more money on gas, he/she should be entiltled to something! As an owner of an 05 Avalon Touring that is not handicapped by VSC/TC, I'm still not going to bet my 'pink slip' if that opponent happens to be a 300C/Charger R/T./Impala SS.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    Here is a quote from the 300 magazine"using suspension design and geometry developed by its parent.Daimler-Chrysler"Thats sounds like a Mercedes platform to me.Thats one of the things that make the LX cars good as they are.The Borla is not a stock exhaust.I'm getting nearly double CFM output more then the standard exhaust.Thats were you get the power.You must know that the easier the engine breathes the more HP you will put out.I agree with cap2 on 3739.If you changed your exhaust with a low restriction,you will see more power,and better FE,which is why I had the duals put on.Its a win win situation.Even the Hemi R/T exhaust is restricted,thats with most stock exhaust.The SRT doesn't sound restricted and have bigger exhaust then the 5.7 Hemi.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I just think it's a stupid idea to compare a modified Charger against a bone-stock Azera.

    Let's stick to apples to apples here.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    the Pontiac G6 is on this list...I am guessing it should be the G8?
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Are you a salesman for Borla?
    I crunched some numbers, and assuming you paid around $600 parts and labor for your exhaust, and it increases your mileage 1MPG, it'll take you about 100,000 miles before you reach the break even point on cost.
    As far as the added power, even if you get 10HP more, you still are carrying more weight per horsepower than the Azera ( 13.8 lbs/hp ) versus your Charger at 14.7 lbs/hp. If you have AWD, then your Charger is at 15.4 lbs/hp.
    So what if the CFM is double the stock exhaust, your choke point is probably the catalytic converter, and you didn't alter its flow.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    I dont know what weight you using for the Azera,Motor Trend puts it at 3794,about equal to the Charger,with my duals puts it about dead even.If Im getting double CFM,then the converters arent showing much restriction.I came up with about 14.4 lbs/HP.You can't get much closer then that.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Azera Limited: 3629 lbs and 263 HP = 13.8 lbs/HP
    Charger SE: 3820 lbs and 250 HP = 15.3 lbs/HP

    To have the same lbs/HP as the Azera the Charger needs to be at 277 HP. Is your Borla exhaust giving you extra 27 HP?

    I don't think so.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Motor Trend uses weight including a driver most of the time. Consumer Guide cites the Charger at 3820, the Azera at 3629. Try using one source for both numbers. Adds to the credibility side of things, and helps keep all things on a level playing field (although comparing a modded Charger to a stock Azera isn't a level playing field either).
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    :)

    Anyone want to meet me at the Irwindale drag strip?

    Come on now. Don't be shy. :D
    Your V6 Dodge with Borla exhaust against my bone stock Azera and we shall see. :surprise:

    If you can't do that, at least run your Mopar V6 on a dyno and show us some results.

    Many here are from Missouri (the Show Me State) and we'd love to see those results!

    Lots of Luck!

    :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    +1

    I want to see what'll happen with my "non-HO 2GR-FSE" going against the "HO Dodge 3.5".
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    To the Borla exhaust guru: See below for what a K & N CAI would have done for your hot rod Charger.

    2007 DODGE Charger 3.5L V6 F/I - All Automotive Aircharger 63-1117

    11.68 HP @ 6215 RPM
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    "HO" has been a Chrysler term for years. My father had a 1968 Plymouth Fury III with the 383 cid engine. His was the 2 bbl carb (and it had juice). Chrysler also had a 383 with 4 bbl carb and a 383 HO.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    not exactly fair is it? You are running closer to 11 lbs./hp on your IS which is a smaller car after all. Power to weight more in the territory of even a Stang GT/300C/Impala SS, all V8s of course- and I would put my money on your IS despite 2 less cylinders, less torque, and a bunch less of that gas consuming extra displacement. All in all, a helluva a ride, that IS :) .
    'HO' BTW is a relative term - getting 250 HP is 'high' for a Chrysler V6 engine but still short of what is expected (and delivered) out of the similar displacements from Toyota, Nissan, and/or Honda engines (let's not forget 3.5 liter entries from MB and VW as well). And then, of course we have a whole line of straight sixes from you know who. So what should the marketing mavens call these engines? Really, really (or truly) HO, I guess ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, El Capitan, I was just trying to make a point on the "HO vs non-HO" discussion.

    I don't see anywhere on my 2GR-FSE that says "HO".

    ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I do, it's called "306 hp" :)
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    The 383 HO was called the Magnum.I owned one in my 68 Road Runner.The Magnum was 335 HP,the 383-4bbl was 330.The 3.5 in the Avenger is 235,while my Charger was 250,thats the differance in HP between non HO,and HO.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    I already made the challenge,but my post was taken down by the host(Pat).I cant understand why your allowed to say what you want,but I'm not.So there is no sense for me to say what I want.I think the case is closed.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    If indeed the "case is closed", it should be closed to both participants.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hey all...the Thanksgiving holiday is quickly approaching. Will you be travelling to your place of celebration in one of the fine vehicles that are mentioned in this forum? If so, I wish ALL of you safe travels and a happy, safe and blessed holiday!!!

    Mike
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    Re: #s 3756 & 3757

    "I already made the challenge, but my post was taken down by the host (Pat.)
    I can't understand why you are allowed to say what you want, but I'm not.
    So there is no sense for me to say what I want. I think the case is closed."

    :)

    Been there; Done that. :surprise:

    I guess there is a very fine line in how you say something. Perhaps I have
    finally learned just how to say what I want to say without crossing that line? ;)

    Or maybe the moderators have just given up on me? :confuse:

    I guess it is all in how you word what you want to say?

    :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think the case is closed.

    If it were closed, you wouldn't continue posting about it. If you feel the case is closed, then don't participate. Others who want to continue will do so until the host makes them stop.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    Mike,

    Enjoy the holiday as well! I will get to drive my Avalon.... a whole 1.5 miles! Take care!

    Tom

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Anyone who wants to talk about discussion management is welcome to do so with me or with Karen off-line, but let's don't sidetrack this conversation. I will simply point out that erroneous assumptions are being made by some of you.
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Are those erroneous assumptions that there are adults contributing to this forum? Sure has been in question of late.....
  • themachinistthemachinist Member Posts: 1
    I would never own an Azera, its styling is disgusting. It may be faster than a 3.5 charger, maybe even exponentionally faster, but you still wont find me in one. Some people would drive a pink VW beetle with flowers on it if it was faster than their buddy's car. Cars arent all about 0-60 times. Its all about the whole experience. If its styling attracts you, its interior strikes you the right way, and the style of the car matches you. Personally Hyundai is an Off brand to me, its like at Walmart, you can buy a 2 liter of PEPSI, or you can buy a 2 liter of SAMS CHOICE... and Hyundai is definatly the "sams choice" of the auto world. A hyundai drives ok, looks ok, is cheaper, and gets you from point a to point b, but its not a Charger, Mustang, Camaro, or any other vehicle with a REAL lineage and heritage.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I can almost respect this posting. You're right, the Azera is and never will be a Charger, Mustang or Camaro (thank goodness). Considering it's a brand new car (2 years removed), you're right...it has no lineage or heritage. However, to correct your metaphor...it is not the Sam's Choice of the auto world, it's more like buying Pepsi at Wal Mart for $ .99 as opposed to paying $1.79 at 7-11.

    I can't knock your apparent disdain for Hyundai products, but before you pass such harsh judgement, I would simply ask that you go and test drive one. Yes...the car is inexpensive, however...it's far from cheap in fit and finish. Hyundai is the "OFF" brand that is quickly becoming a name brand.

    You're also right that a car isn't all about 0-60 times. The best question that sums it up, "When you turn your car on, does it return the favor?" This would vary from one individual to the next. While an Azera may not turn you on, it will turn someone else on. I'm curious...what do you think of the styling of the Benz S-Class cars? What do you think of the styling of the BMW 7-Series? Just asking. ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    As they say, different strokes for different folks. Some people like car A, some people like car B.

    Between the Azera and the Charger, you said it, the whole experience says it all. The Azera is a driver's car, offering comfortable ride for all occupants. The Charger is not, and it is not intended to be. It is a sport oriented car that's built on the framework of, well, a sport sedan.

    Heritage you say? Take two doors off the Charger, and then you've got some heritage :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    With the kind of craptaculour interior material and build quality in the Charger (or any Dodge) I don't care if it has the heritage of a Rolls Royce I would still choose the Hyundai over it.

    Charger is a budget sporty RWD sedan and Azera is a near-luxury sedan, the only similarity between the two is the size.
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