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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    I agree with you 110%.I couldnt have said it better.You have the best post this week.Good job.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    I think the whole Hyundai line up is budget products.You put in leather seats and faux wood,and you call it a Luxury car.A luxury car is a Caddy,Lincoln,Chrysler,Lexus,Mercedes,Infiniti,your car doesn't come close to being luxury.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    First of all, I don't have a Hyundai Azera. As matter of fact, I own one of the luxury cars that you've listed above so I think I do know a thing or few about luxury cars.

    Second, where did I say that the Azera is a luxury car? I said it is a near luxury car which is different. A luxury car like you said is a BMW, MB, Lexus and etc (I don't consider Chrysler and Lincoln as luxury cars so I guess I have higher standard than you), OTOH a near luxury car is cars in this segment like Lucerne, Avalon, Azera, Maxima and 300. The Dodge Charger, which is a budget RWD sports sedan, is not part of that group. Like I said, the only similarity between Charger and Azera is size.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Charger heritage? If you look at the upcoming Challenger, THAT is what should be the Charger. I mean...if you go back and watch Dukes of Hazzard re-runs, you'll see that the 'Ol General Lee body style resembles the Challenger more than the current Charger.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    My dad owned a '69 Charger R/T. Both of us were disappointed when Chrysler decided to add two more doors...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I think this was a case of Dodge just wanting to attach a name that had a meaning for Mopar faithfuls.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    If you don't have a Azera then why are you here on this board talking about a car you don't have.To me in order to compare a car on this board,it makes sense to own one of these cars.Second the Charger and 300 are identical cars,same platform,same engines,just a differant name.Why don't you hang out with the cars that are in your catergory?Your buddy Azera owners been bragging that they have a luxury car,and its not.You call my Charger budget,yet it beats the Azera in trade,and retail value,so that doesn't say much about the Azera does it?Plus I don't think that they are going to put a Mercedes E series suspension,transmission,steering column,seat frames on a budget car.And people say the Charger has 4 doors,well the original Charger was made from the 4 door Coronet.4 doors or not,the Charger is a lot better looking then what Hyundai came up with.Its also one of the most popular car on the road along with the 300.I would guess more popular then what you drive.Motor Trend even says after driving the Charger"enough about the four doors already"
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You don't have to own a car to have an opinion.

    The Azera and Charger are pretty dead even in trade in value as has been proven previously.

    The Azera is not a full out luxury car, it is an entry level luxury car...that is what was stated. Compared to what else is out there in it's price range it's more luxury than anything...except for maybe the Lucerne. The Charger may have a Mercedes platform and suspension underpinnings, but it sure doesn't ride or handle like a Benz...AT ALL.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    To me in order to compare a car on this board,it makes sense to own one of these cars

    One usually compares cars before they buy them not after.

    Your buddy Azera owners been bragging that they have a luxury car

    One could also brag a Honda Accord is a luxury car, but doesn't make it so.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you don't have a Azera then why are you here on this board talking about a car you don't have.To me in order to compare a car on this board,it makes sense to own one of these cars.Second the Charger and 300 are identical cars,same platform,same engines,just a differant name.Why don't you hang out with the cars that are in your catergory?

    When did you become an administrator here xtec? Last I checked we could particpate in any discussion we wanted to as long as it didn't get personal, and it was on the subject of the thread.

    4 doors or not,the Charger is a lot better looking then what Hyundai came up with.

    That's your opinion, but you state it as fact. It's not. Styling is subjective.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 3777: "When did you become an administrator here xtec"

    what we don't need here is another micro-manager.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    That was a bit rude comments to louiswei, don't you think? Everyone has the right to be here and discuss in civil fashion. Aside from everything others have already pointed out regarding your post, I'd like to see where it has been said the Azera is a luxury car? The Azera is a premium/near-luxury sedan with luxury features.
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    So your saying I'm allowed to go on the Azera board and have discussion about the Azera even though I don't own one.And yes my car does ride like the Mercedes.I have the same suspension,how could it not ride the same.You people crack me up,everyday something new,yet you lose everytime.If we are allowed to go on any board we want would create kaos like this board is.No one allowed to talk about the other cars on here,because you like the limelight and cant let go.We compared these two cars to death.I think its not polite to hog this board,buts thats what you want.I remember when this board first started and one of the Azera owners came on here and said this was for them only.I guess they couldn't read,then I knew that in my OPINION the Azera owners had a problem.And yes in my OPINION you can't comment on a car if you don't own it.How can you tell how it rides,what problems may come Like the Azera failed suspension.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    So your saying I'm allowed to go on the Azera board and have discussion about the Azera even though I don't own one.

    Yes.

    If we are allowed to go on any board we want would create kaos like this board is.
    Our hosts do an excellent job of preventing chaos, this board is proof of that (that's why the host asked that you quit bringing things like this up).

    We compared these two cars to death.I think its not polite to hog this board

    Well, you don't have a problem posting, so I'll stop when you do. How's that? :P

    And yes in my OPINION you can't comment on a car if you don't own it.How can you tell how it rides

    Have you never driven, ridden in, or looked at ANY cars other than the ones you have a title for? You'd be a minority if your answer is yes.

    You people crack me up,everyday something new,yet you lose everytime.

    "You lose?" What's to lose?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's get back to the cars and stop talking about each other.

    I'm not sure why some of you who I know know better are encouraging and contributing to this mess, but personally I would very much appreciate it if you would stop.

    Anyone who wants to continue to participate in this discussion needs to drop all personal comments and stick to the cars. The personal challenges going on in here need to stop.

    Thanks.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Where are we on this? Leave or remove?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It's clearly a midsize, and hasn't been discussed in here. It can go. :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, you brought it up. :)

    Should I replace it with G8 then? Or something else?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I did? I don't remember that. (But then i don't remember a lot of things)
    :blush:
    It should be the G8.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    In your opinion, the Charger is better looking than the Azera, but in my opinion, the Charger just looks ugly and cheap. There's very little chrome on the outside, the body shape is awkward and screams boy racer, and the inside is loaded with hard plastic surfaces. Even if it had the best powertrain in the world, I still couldn't get past the UGLY.
    I do like the looks of the 300, but in my opinion, the only good looking vehicle that Dodge markets is the Viper.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    as in the past- style is each person's own opinion. For example unlike some people on this forum I love new BMW and MB style. Audi to me looks plain. Nissan ( Infinity) in my opinion is now styling king for under 40K vehicles. I already had a chance to talk about Sonata and Azera on this forum.
    One thing i like about charger is that it is RWD. Useless in the winter but fun in the summer. Although Chrysler group started 3.5 L revolution, 3.5 L that is in MB is much better and of a new type. This engine is not performance oriented in MB.
    Hyundai's 3.8 was either licensed, co-developed or stolen from Mitsubishi as it shares similar characteristics. Compared to Avalon or Maxima it is slightly inferior. It is modern but if Toyota had 3.8 in Avalon, it would have been about 290 HP and about 270 torque.
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    Is the Taurus/Sable the only sedans in this group with the higher driver seat position? Someone said one sits somewhat higher in the Azera. My wife is short and likes the higher seating of our minivan, but we would like to go to a sedan for our next vehicle.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,918
    Toyota is capable of over 300HP from its direct injected version of the 3.5. So I would guess if a manufacturer really wanted to a 3.8 could probably be in excess of 350.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    mainstream cars need torque # closer to HP or higher, performance cars can get away with high HP and low torque figures. Thats why while both Nissan and Toyota have 3.5 producing over 300 hp for their luxury brands, they use more fuel efficient, high torque in mainstream vehicles.
    In your example, with 3.8L both Toyota and Nissan will have about 330+ in their high output versions. But now compare FE of GS vs Avalon and M35 vs Maxima.
    m35 rwd - 18/25 Maxima- 21/28
    Avalon is hard to compare as it is longer then either GS or ES though I say LS is a luxury Avalon, but price wise I believe GS is closer choice.

    now if we talk about engines on this forum, I believe GM's 3.6, Nissan's VQ and Toyota's 2gre are the best here and the most flexible.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are correct, I think Ford/Merc. marketed it as Captain's seating. I've say in the Taurus and I would say it sits up much higher than the seats in the Azera.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai's 3.8 was either licensed, co-developed or stolen from Mitsubishi as it shares similar characteristics. Compared to Avalon or Maxima it is slightly inferior. It is modern but if Toyota had 3.8 in Avalon, it would have been about 290 HP and about 270 torque.

    What are you talking about? Licensed, co-developed, stolen? Keep dreaming. The 3.8 Lambda is developed/built in house.

    FYI, and as suspected, the 3.8 Lambda is capable of higher hp and increased fuel economy. And, as the second generation Lambda (both 3.3 and 3.8) debuts, it will make use of both categories. For the record, the upcoming RWD BK from Hyundai with the 3.8 house under the hood WILL have more than 300hp. The BH luxury RWD sedan will also use the 3.8 as its base engine (4.6L V8), and we'll hear more info soon.

    PS, some more engine knowledge for you, the "world engine" was developed by Hyundai, and my understanding Hyundai is getting loyalty payments.
  • derrelhgreenderrelhgreen Member Posts: 234
    Re: # 3795

    :)

    That setting him straight joe97. :surprise:

    I wonder if we will be able to simply upgrade our older 3.8 Lambdas
    to bring them up to being equal to the newer applications? :confuse:

    I can dream can't I? :D

    :)
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    RWD is not useless in the winter with the proper tires, traction control and decent weight distribution. I have done many Michigan winters in the past decade with a Firebird and a couple Cateras . The Firebird was on narrower than stock winter tires, and the Caddys on all season tires . Don't they plow the roads where you're at?
    In a family sedan, though, IMO, FWD is the way to go. The Charger fun in summer? With 4200 pounds in the hemi version, that's no sports sedan - it's a very big and heavy 4 passenger car. The center rear position being nearly useless for an adult because of the driveshaft tunnel.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    well you should be blind not to notice that hyundai appearance appears to be stolen from multiple vehicles. You favorite azera in its prior appearance as sonata has tail lights that look exactly like tail lights in Honda Accord 2004.
    BTW if 3.8 was an in house, why is it that it has similar characteristics as in mitsubishi?
    Hope You Understand Nothing's Driveable And Inexpensive

    Even though we have so many members on this forum driving Azera, I see more on the road Ford Tauruses, 07+ Maximas, Avalons and Chargers.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    BTW if 3.8 was an in house, why is it that it has similar characteristics as in mitsubishi?
    Hope You Understand Nothing's Driveable And Inexpensive

    The difference between what you posted and what I posted: you are assuming just because the Mitsu 3.8 has the same displacement as one of Hyundai's two Lambda engines. By the way, the Mitsu 3.8 (6G75 is a replacement of the 6G74, which is a 3.5L).

    I am not telling you something as opinions, I am telling you as fact the 3.3 and 3.8 Lambda engine family is built in-house, period. There is no such thing as "if". Oh yeah, would you like to explain to me why there isn't a Mitsu 3.3 if you are so much as convinced this is somehow related to Hyundai engines. Stop arguing with the truth.

    Let's drag another fact in, the Sonata's design froze long before the Accord facelift (w/ the taillight in question) came out. If it makes you feel good they "appear" alike, then suit yourself.

    By the way, "azera in its prior appearance as sonata" - that makes no sense whatsoever...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Avalon is hard to compare as it is longer then either GS or ES though I say LS is a luxury Avalon

    I agree that size wise the Avalon is most 'competitive' to an LS, but drivetrain wise it really is closer to a slightly larger ES at similar price points. The ES's 272hp is simply the Avalon's 268hp rated engine using premium gas, a marketing decision on Toyota's part because Avalon buyers seem to be more likely to want to save the extra money on gas. Given that the similarily sized LS can fetch up to maybe $75k these days (or $35k+ more than the Av), and is a dynamically superior vehicle to the Avalon (with more 'brand prestige'), it is hard to believe that it would be cross-shopped.
    Agree with the torque spec comment, luxury cruisers like those in this class are supposed to offer supreme driveability - which generally means a plentiful helping of torque which must also be available in a wide (relatively low) rpm range. This is one of the benefits (the other being FE) of these new high tech continuously variable valve timing engines (intake and exhaust) as in Toyota's 2GR - an engine undoubtedly a cut above the other engines in the cars of this group - at least from an efficiency point of view. Nissan's latest rendition of the VQ (3.7 liter) in the new G is similarily equipped. It is important to note that there is a whole lot more to the way CVVTi systems work than the simpler VVT systems work in the other cars in this class.
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    :) The 2008 Consumer Reports Buying Guide is out. They rate cars through the 2006 model year and Azera does extremely well in several categories.
    One thing I found interesting is that there are 17 different models for Toyotas, not including Lexus and Scion. Maybe they went to this many too fast?
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    It is important to note that there is a whole lot more to the way CVVTi systems work than the simpler VVT systems work in the other cars in this class.
    Both the 3.3 and the 3.8 engines in the Azera are CVVT, whether it's on intake and exhaust, I don't know - maybe someone out there knows. They also incorporate a variably tuned cold air intake, and a 10.4:1 compression ratio which runs on 87 octane gas.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a quick check on the Lambda engine (on Wikipedia) shows only VVT on the intake side only - which would make the Hyundai engine more similar to the Nissan 3.5 (not the 3.7) , and the Ford DT.The GM 3.6 OTH is more similar to the Toyota engine in that it does much the same thing and is additionally can be equipped with the same direct injection - a remarkable achievement for a company that is losing billions and billions. As many of us can remember modifying our Detroit V8s with 'grind cams' this is important especially on the intake side as it can improve high rpm 'breathing' but also can amount to nothing more than a mechanical camshaft shift at a specific (higher) engine speed, effectively 'holding' the intake valves open earlier and longer, which is typical for many of these new VVT engines ( the Ford DT for example). This is the same thing we would do to those V8s eons ago, except that now thiese engines will hold an idle as well. Continuously variable valvetrains can and do change valve timings and durations over an effectively infinite range of engine speeds and loads (the 'C' part) and a computer, of course, to make the appropriate changes (the 'i' part). I believe that the 2GR is the first (and only) engine- in generally affordable cars - that does this - with my apologies to GM's fine effort
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    BTW if 3.8 was an in house, why is it that it has similar characteristics as in mitsubishi?
    from what I've read the the Lambda 3.8 designed and built - in Alabama by Hyundai!. Just because HP or torque is similar does not make it the same engine - you surely don't think that Toyota 'stole' the 2GR from MB E350, do you? The specs. are also very close to identical. There is more than a passing relationship between Hyundai/Chrysler/Mitsubishi, however - and has been for years..
  • skydive1978skydive1978 Member Posts: 4
    I become an owner of brand new Avalon '08 LTD just one month ago and I like the car from the day one. On last week wednesday, in the morning, ready to go to work, started my car and got low oil pressure light on. As manual says 'CHECK', I checked oil level - was OK, but decided to go to the dealer to check what is wrong. There are 6 miles from my home to the dealership where I got my car and on the middle of the way engine start acting crazy, got noise under the hood - I slow down and stop and engine died and all lights comes on. Restarted engine OK, but still noise, and turned to the near street and shot off the engine. Looked under the hood and found that engine oil is all over. Check the oil level and there was nothing in the engine - but on the ground between my first and last stop, that about 20-30 yards in distance. Call to dealership and order tow car. Service manager at the dealership, when I get there, loan me a car and promise to call me at work. One hour later I was able to talk to him again and been told that they planning to pull engine out because Toyota rep is coming to investigate on Monday what was happend to that engine with only 560 miles??????
    Anyone heard about such problem with Toyota's engine?
    Today is Monday and looks like Toyota rep did not show up, but been told that they found crack in the engine block. :lemon:
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    "Anyone heard about such problem with Toyota's engine?
    Today is Monday and looks like Toyota rep did not show up, but been told that they found crack in the engine block."

    Sorry to hear of your misfortune, but I am sure Toyota will make it as good as new. Being an Azera owner, I have not heard of any such problems with Hyundai engines.

    Good luck.
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    And it would be rare in a Toyota engine as well. I know they'll probably make it right, but still a huge bummer.

    Sorry to hear about your problems. Once you get it fixed, hopefully the matter will turn from frustration back to your original love of the car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Being a car owner for many years, I have not heard of a engine with a cracked block off the manufacturing line, but anything is possible I guess.

    Toyota should make good on it. If I were them, I would be wondering how this got past quality control.
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    I doubt a visable crack was present in the factory, or the oil would have leaked out well prior to 560 miles.
  • skydive1978skydive1978 Member Posts: 4
    Toyota rep authorized to replace the engine - short block. It should be shipped in 2-3 days but they out of gasket. The could not locate it in US and looks like it will be shipped from Japan. That is what I been told by service manager at my dealership. It hard to believe in that, but looks like I will be stock with a loaner for a while. They loan me Camry 4 cyl. and that is day and night with what I had.
    That is my second Avalon. My first one is '96 and still drivers as a champ for almost 12 years with 122,000 on it and I had no problem with that car at all, just regular stuff: tires, brakes. My teen daughter is driving that Avalon to school/work/around - nice car!
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    For what it's worth, the engine quit on my '97 Ford Explorer at about 1800 miles and the entire engine was replaced. I think you would deserve the same!
  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Toyota had severe problems with the V6 Camrys last year. Also, I have a friend who had a 2003 Camry 4 cylinder and shortly after warranty expired, plastic parts on the engine melted and Toyota agreed to give him 50% of the cost toward future service. The plastic "struts" in the sunroof broke a month later. No help at all from Toyota on that $800 job, so he traded it in on an Acura TSX.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Toyota had severe problems with the V6 Camrys last year.
    a statement without substantiation, unless of course, you know something that nobody else does. What Toyota DID have is a few 6 speed trannies (made in Japan :confuse: of all places) that got out of the factory with a badly installed snap ring which led to tranny failure in what was apparently a few hundred out of several hundred thousand built - and nothing to do with the engine at all. Additionally they have been fielding drivability complaints on both the 5 and 6 speed trannies relative to hesitation/slipping in actual operation, for which some software fix TSBs have been issued, but not a mechanical problem per se or a recall. What I believe
    to be true: that consumer complaints on the operation of the new 6 speed auto is what led CR for example to remove its 'recommendation' and not engine problems (or physical tranny problems) of any sort, from the V6 Camry models specifically . If you know something more than this please enlighten us because the current model of the Avalon (which continues to improve its better than average rating) has also been 'improved' with the 6 speed- please - before I go out and buy another one.
  • snaglepussnaglepus Member Posts: 160
    "Toyota had severe problems with the V6 Camrys last year."

    Scbob does in fact know about this.
    Do a search for sludge problems and you will find that his statement is true.

    More than 1/2 of one percent (0.5) of total production of both the V6 and the 4 cylinder engines had this problem, and in some cases, the customers got stuck with the total costs of a complete engine replacement.

    Combine that engine problem fact along with the transmission problems and you might understand why the Toyotas has been down rated.
  • snaglepussnaglepus Member Posts: 160
    "Sorry to bust your bubble, but only a few 06/07 Azeras have an issue with their front suspension"

    That statement is not correct.

    The issues were for cars produced from December 05, 2005 through 26, 2007.
    A period of over fourteen months is not what anyone would call "only a few 06/07 Azeras."
    That is unless you consider several thousand Azeras a "a few?"
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,918
    Sludge problems with the 2GR???? First I am hearing about this. Earlier 3.0 V6s did have problems. Please provide a link with reference to the 3.5 2GR engine.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • scbobscbob Member Posts: 167
    Sorry, I don't remember where I read it, but I did not make it up. It either came from Consumer Reports or a car magazine.
    Remember Avalon used to have much better than average reliability. So improving on (or to?) better than average is less than what it used to be.
    Jan. 2008 CR shows 83% Azera owner satisfaction vs. 80% for Avalon.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Jan. 2008 CR shows 83% Azera owner satisfaction vs. 80% for Avalon.

    If I find a model from BMW, Lexus, MB which has an owner satisfaction less than 83% does that make it a less car than Azera.

    I know why Azera generally has higher owner satisfaction but I am not going to go there...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yep, there seems to be a lot of misinformed folks out there with long memories, but no facts relevant to what Toyota has been doing since December of 2004 (the 2GR) - at least as far as the Avalon is concerned. It must be acknowledged however, that Toyota did mishandle the whole 'sludge' issue in those old 3.0s and 3.3s back in the late 90s/early 00s - wasn't aware that the 4 has ever had the problem in the Camry or any other vehicle.
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