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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • jimmy2xjimmy2x Member Posts: 124
    as I have said before - if it is a trunk you want along with some fold down rear seats the Taurus may be the vehicle of choice - talk about enough room for a coupla extra bodies!

    You may well be right if I can get over the exterior styling (or lack of).
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    This is indeed the last year for the 3800 ( I'm in the Flint, MI area where the engine is made ). BTW, the Northstar is getting a bit long in the tooth, too - just a basic DOHC V8: no VVT, direct injection, etc.
    I can't recall hearing anything about the future of the Lucerne/Cadillac DTS platform, but it's days have to be limited, too.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Since when has the Azera been plagued with any delayed shifting/slipping problems?
    Sorry, Mike, I have to disagree on this one. I have previously noted the delay in downshifting in my Azera, to which you advised that I should use the autoshift. If I want to shift manually, I'll drive my other car.
    An auto trans is supposed to work automatically. BTW, I have owned lots of GM cars with the old 4-speed trans and they all downshifted when I wanted/needed them to.
  • garym1jgarym1j Member Posts: 46
    I mean, finally getting in-dash nav and improved suspension, but...lacking adaptive cruise, smart key/push-button starting, HID headlights and cooling seats. (The Azera is not yet competitive with the Azera).

    When I looked at the Avalon, I seem to recall that cooled seats were close to $2K extra. I remember thinking that was a bit much to keep the wife's tail end cool. (I didn't tell her that.)

    If offered on the Azera, probably would opt out of air condtioned seats due to additional cost.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 3955
    Mike
    Tell me about the HP snafu and Hyundai lengthening the powertrain warranty to 12 year 120,000 miles.
    I have the 10/100 extended warranty.
  • markandjanetmarkandjanet Member Posts: 4
    Do ya'll really think the ride and cabin noise of the Azera is the same quality of the Avalon? We drove the Azera, and it was not nearly as quiet or comosed. Just my thoughts.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    floridabob,

    I think the HP snafu relates to the 2002 Sonata with the 2.7L engine. The 2.7 was new that year (replaced a 2.5) and listed HP at 181. This was an overstatement. (My '05 2.7 engine is rated at 170.)

    Because Hyundai overstated the HP, they extended the warranty as a form of compensation to the owners.

    Personally I don't care what the HP rating is, just how the car performs when I drive it.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re. 3979 Because Hyundai overstated the HP, they extended the warranty as a form of compensation to the owners.

    Plus, in the case of my wife's '02 Santa Fe, a debit card of as I recall $25-30.00. Shortly thereafter, their Fountain Valley CEO resigned and went to work for Mitsu.

    I now take Hyundai's present HP claims with the grain of salt.
  • john_ju_2000john_ju_2000 Member Posts: 1
    Hi,
    I am interested in a pre-owned car. Is anyone out there willing to help me to check the car's history via database such as carfax? Please kindly let me know if you can so that I can send you the VIN#. My email: [email protected].
    Thanks a lot.
    John
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    I now take Hyundai's present HP claims with the grain of salt.
    You can take the claims as you like, but in tests by Car and Driver of the Avalon, Maxima, and Azera, the 1/4 mile results speak for themselves:
    Avalon, 280HP ( since downrated to 268? ) 14.6@99, LBS/HP.... 13.37
    Maxima, 265HP.... 14.9@96, LBS/HP..... 13.29
    Azera, 263HP....... 14.8@96, LBS/HP..... 14.00
    I'd say if any of the above ratings are overrated, it would be the Maxima, which weighs over 100 pounds less than the Azera, but has identical trap speed.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    For a very modest price you can get it yourself directly from CARFAX: http://www.carfax.com/index.cfm

    That would be the best thing to do.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    I haven't driven the Avalon. I'll answer as a courtesy, since nobody else has yet.

    By most accounts, the Avalon's suspension is better sorted than the Azera's. It may be more biased toward ride comfort at the expense of responsive handling (except the Avalon Touring model), but the Azera reputedly does not handle small pavement imperfections as well.

    As for noise, most objective testing seems to show the Azera has lower absolute noise levels than the Avalon, although this does not speak to the subjective quality of the sound that is heard. The Azera's sounds certainly have not drawn any generalized complants, however.

    Hope this helps.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    You seem to continually complain about your Azera, without complaining out about your specific car, and ask if the model will be continued; and now you are complaining about an another Hyundai you own.

    If you weren't satisfied with your '02 Santa Fe, why did you buy an Azera?

    It's my observation that Hyundai tends to intoduce new models years on a 12 month cycle, not the traditional October 1 cycle. Present generation Sonatas hit the street around May or June of '05, as an "06." Each year since, this is about the time they introduce the "new" model year. Same thing for when the current Santa Fe or Elantra were brought out. The '06 Azera first hit the market (depending on locality) around December of '05 or January of '06. Same with the '07 Azera, (check other Azera topics to confirm this).

    So, if a new model or new generation of that model is introduced in X month, we should expect that the new model year will be introduced 12 months later.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re 3985: You seem to continually complain about your Azera, without complaining out about your specific car, and ask if the model will be continued; and now you are complaining about an another Hyundai you own.

    If you weren't satisfied with your '02 Santa Fe, why did you buy an Azera?


    My '07 Azera has a noisy rear suspension, period. I leased my '07 Azera in October '06, so in my market the '08 is now a 14-month "cycle". I don't buy other posts that the '08's are "still at the Port", or otherwise in storage. 750 + US dealers have only sold 20,351 units in 11 months resulting in a monthly average of 2-1/2 Azera's per month per dealer. Hyundai knows their US monthly rate of sale, so where is the "glut of remaining '07 inventory" that is delaying the distribution of the '08?

    Regarding my '02 Santa Fe, that post had nothing to do with product satisfaction. Read it again, I added it to a post regarding HP misrepresentation by Hyundai in certain '02 models.

    I enjoy both Huyndai's in my garage and I have no serious complaints with either. My concerns are with Hyundai's third world marketing efforts and uninformed dealer service departments.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    CD Based? hmmm in that case it will have no info on POI. even handheld NAV are flash card/ hard drive based now. Some cars still use DVD (not CD) based Systems.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I'm sorry, I did mean DVD based. That's what I get for burning CD's while typing a post...had CD's on the brain. No...it will be a DVD based nav unit. Maybe for '09 they go to a GPS based unit and the head unit will have a 40 gig hard drive built in.

    Hey Alexstore, you see the YouTube clipe with the '99 Max going up against an Azera w/the 3.3 V-6?
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Well NEW SAE requires new tests and as a result for SAE certified engine Maxima is now rated @ 255 and Avalon @ 268. Maxima also weighs almost 200 lb less than Azera and still beats Azera in lb/hp ratings. 2005 Max- 3432 LB, 05 Avalon touring 3545 and 2006 Azera 3629 LB
    Maxima = 13.45 lb/hp
    Azera= 13.8 lb/HP
    Avalon=13.23 lb/hp
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    re: 3979
    Does the extention of the powertrain warranty to 12/120000 carry over to the Azera?
    If so, how does one confirm it with Hyundai US?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I think the extension only applied to model year 2002 vehicles with the 2.7L engine. Hyundai did restate the HP to be 170.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    99 max 190 hp vs 242 hp Azera? You better find one with 04+ max vs 3.8 Azera
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Did you read post #3982? The results cited are from July '05 C&D for the Maxima, so it's an '05. The Azera is from July '06 C&D, so it's an '06. Azera beats it by .1 sec. in the quarter, they both run 0-60 in 6.1 sec, and the Azera is about 10 MPH faster on the top ( Maxima is limited to 139 MPH ).
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    CAR & DRIVER lists the Maxima 3.5SE at 3521 lbs., the Avalon Touring at 3583 lbs. and the Azera SE at 3681. They weigh the cars with a full tank of gas. Regardless of the Maxima's lighter weight, it's still marginally slower than the Azera, so must have less HP, which is borne out by your post listing it at 255 HP.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    slower??
    MT road tests
    Azera 6.5
    Maxima 6.4
    funny Avalon 6.5
  • xtecxtec Member Posts: 354
    Here are more tests from Motor trend.Azera VS.Avalon VS.Passat
    Azera 0-60 6.8 1/4 mile [email protected] 263HP
    Avalon 0-60 6.2 1/4 mile [email protected] 268HP
    Passat 0-60 6.2 1/mile [email protected] 280HP
    On message 3608 it shows Edmunds road test which shows the Azera 0-60 7.2 1/4 mile 15.5.To me Edmunds seems to be true numbers compared to the other tests.Either way all these cars are quick,but the Azera comes up short with the Avalon.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I knew that all along.
    I know for a fact that Avalon is faster than my Max 0-60 but these 2 cars beat Azera.
    I saw once somewhere( I forgot the place) Avy 0-60 6.0 and Maxima 6.1. Azera was 6.5 by same magazine.
    Just because Azera has no limiter, it does not make it faster. It is very easy to remove limiter.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    thank you
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    4000!

    And, you're welcome :)
  • dfwfrankdfwfrank Member Posts: 25
    Interesting. If you read C&D capsule review for the Azera it says. 0-60 6.1 secs., quarter mile 14.8 at 96 mph.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I do my best to use numbers from direct comparisons in these magazines. This way, the cars are most likely tested at the same track, on the same day, by the same driver.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Bob, the hp snafu was with the '02 model year. Hyundai was saying that the Sonata (and a couple other vehicles) had more horse power than they really did. There was a class action suit and the result was customers could choose which warranty they wanted extended. Since all of mine were 10yr/100k miles...they offered to extend my powertrain warranty to 12 yr/120k miles.

    It was only for the '02 model year.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It must not be a wide-spread problem. I don't have that issue with my Azera.

    An auto tranny does not shift when you want it to, that's why it's an auto...it shifts when it needs to. As I said in a previous post, maybe you should take it in to the dealer and ask them to re-flash the tranny programming, reset it and take it out and re-teach it. You are aware that the tranny is adaptive, right?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No Bob, it was ONLY for the '02 model year vehicles that had the hp ratings stated wrong. There is no program to extend the warranty on the Azera to 12 yr/120k miles. Sorry.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmm...that max was pushing more than 190 hp, I guess you only saw what you wanted to see. The Max had a few aftermarket jewels added to it my friend. If the Max was stock at 190, it would not have been beating that Azera.

    Don't worry, your Max still won't blow the doors off an Azera...unless it's a GLS model! LMAO
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    re-flash the tranny programming, reset it and take it out and re-teach it.
    Re-teach it, how? By driving agressively for a few weeks, just so it will downshift properly for a maybe once a week situation. I don't think so. I'm aware that it's adaptive and if it were reflashed and then re-taught, it would learn exactly what my driving has already taught it.
    I know you think the Azera is perfect, and I agree that except for the downshifting hesitation under rare situations and the cheap suspension giving a somewhat harsh ride at low speeds - its a darn good car, and the best family car I've ever had.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Can we agree that the Max and Azera are so close that it doesn't matter where the source is, and that the Avalon is slightly quicker than either?
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    That link got me the Car & Driver July 2005 comparison test which I had cited. The Azera was not included ( it wasn't out yet ), but was in the July 2006 issue of the same magazine.
    C&D, whenever possible, test at the same track, with the same driver and correct for temperature, wind, etc. I do agree that there can be and are variables, probably the biggest is getting a car with very little miles and a tight engine. We're only talking tenths of a second here, which are probably not statistically significant.
    Any car in this category with at least 250HP and weighing less than 3700 lbs will move out quite well.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well....considering I don't have the down shift issue, or the issue with my suspension, I guess I can say MY Azera is perfect...sorry yours isn't.

    You know, instead of getting smart about the situation, why don't you give the re-flash a chance! The worst case scenario...it stays the same right? I mean, you said it's only an issue that comes up maybe once a week, so is it really that bad?

    I had a shifting issue when I first bought the car (from 1st to 2nd) and it did seem to down shift hard too. I took it in for the re-flash and after that...no problems with the shifting at all. I certainly have no problems with down shifts (auto or manual mode) when a big truck gets behind me. As a matter of fact, I think I may surprise them when they see a Hyundai pulling away from them with ease!
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 4010
    When I inquired about "re flashing" the computer for the shift pattern for the transmission, the Service Manager stated that it could only be performed when the transmission was replaced. Do you know how the procedure was performed? Was it accomplished with the same plug in computer used for checking and setting codes?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,817
    "Re-teach it, how? By driving agressively for a few weeks, just so it will downshift properly for a maybe once a week situation"

    I say it on the Avalon board all the time. A few full throttle downshifts will usually cure the situation. You don't need to beat the sh** out of your car to "teach" to shift a little sooner. Like it or not.... these adaptive trannys are here to stay and the programming does help to acheive the FE we all love along with the power.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No...the transmission does not have to be replaced to be re-flashed. The procedure is simple, they connect a computer to the car's diagnostic connection and tap into the transmission that way. The original codes are wiped clean and replaced with a new set of codes.

    Sounds like your service department is pretty clueless or just plain lazy. It doesn't take that much effort. I mean...mine was done DURING an oil change, so that should tell you how simple it is and how little time it actually takes.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the only test that would be somewhat comparable are those done at the same time, in the same place, by the same tester, therefore 'abusing' the cars in the same manner. The $30k C&D test (summer of 05) that has the Avalon only a very slight bit quicker than the Maxima is a direct - and valid - comparison as is the 06 test with the Azera, Avalon and Passat - which had the Avalon more significantly ( ~2 car lengths in the quarter) quicker than the Azera. It is therefore logical that the 'order of finish' is probably Passat-Avalon-Maxima- Azera in the drag races, which not surprisingly is correspondent to vehicle weight/hp rankings (disqualifying the V8s) , and also rather insignificant in the overall scheme of things. What is significant, IMO, is when you have some vehicles in this group that pull significantly more weight, let's say 17-20 lbs. per hp, and become a more 'bothersome' drive.
    BTW, C&D always seems to be able to extract better times that anybody else - again more of a function of 'car abuse' than likely anything else, whereas CR and Edmund's come up with perhaps the slowest (but also the most realistic) numbers, but to compare one publication's numbers with another, done at a different times etc.,don't necessarily provide any real basis for comparisons.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    All tests can be comparable, the only thing you can do is take an average to get an idea of the range it falls in. In most cases, we're only talking a few 10ths of a second +/-. It would be different if one publication claimed 5 seconds and another claimed 7 seconds. I think it's safe to say that between the Avalon, Maxima and Azera...they are running pretty close to each other.

    I think the bottom line is that folks can't stomach the fact that a Hyundai product can hang with the Japanese counterparts. In some folks' minds...that's blasphemy! LOL
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think the point some people are trying to make is when all vehicles are cross-compared, the Hyundai is coming up slower. Not significantly slower (over 6.2 vs. 6.8 to sixty MPH, for example) but slower nonetheless.

    All of these cars (except the V6 offerings from GM and the 2.7L Chrysler/Dodge) have more than ample power and are downright quick by most standards.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I would definitely agree with you, but you know...splitting hairs is the American way! LOL

    To be honest, the only thing that really holds the Azera back is it's cushy suspension. The funny thing is...that's it's deemed cushy by most and yet...most complain of it's harshness over imperfect pavement, that's an oxymoron for you. However...I think a stiffer suspension would lead to 0-60 times equal to it's competitors as time is lost when the car "squats" down on the suspension before taking off.

    Anyone that has driven an Azera and really stepped on the gas pedal, can certainly appreciate the power that the engine has. Heck, even watching the Azera @ VIR on YouTube the other day...really showed that the car is quite capable.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the only thing that really holds the Azera back is it's cushy suspension.
    unclear whether you are talking about 'holding back' in terms of acceleration in which case I would tell you that the Azera would be every bit as quick as an Avalon/Azera once it loses about 150 lbs. or so - not a lot- on a 3600+ lb. vehicle- this having nothing to do with soft suspensions etc. One of the things that the Koreans do need to improve on is building things lighter - historically a condition of Korean vehicles - some extra pork! And yes, you can cetianly spin that to mean that some extra weight = built better= good.
    As far as 'cushy' goes, I agree that it may be just a little soft for some - my impression was that it is very much like Buicks used to be ( the Lacrosse/Lucernes are not nearly as 'sloppy' as their nameplate traditionally implies. Personally, I think a 'sports' model Azera with a tightened up suspension (and maybe another 10-15 hp) , wheel/tire package etc. , different interior treatment , is overdue.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes Captain2...I mean in terms of acceleration. The suspension has a lot to do with acceleration, tighter suspensions don't just give better handling in curves. Less squatting upon take off means a quicker take off.

    The Azera is actually light when compared to the 02-05 Sonata. The Sonata weighed in at 3069 lbs. and is much smaller compared to the Azera. The Azera only weighs 560 lbs.more than the older Sonata did. That says a lot considering the Azera is a much bigger car with a much bigger engine as well. The Koreans used a lot more aluminum with the Azera than they did with the older Sonata.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...an Azera coupe maybe? Can't add a cool-air intake, how about a supercharged model? That would be good for another 15-20 hp, maybe with a freeer flowing exhaust as well. More agressive wheel and tire package...I can see it!!!! :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The suspension has a lot to do with acceleration, tighter suspensions don't just give better handling in curves.
    a little far fetched don't you think -handling/braking/road feel -yes - acceleration?
    has to do with HP/lb. and gearing - never heard anybody or anything claim that a 'soft' car was necessarily slower than the same car tightened up a bit.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Funny...it can change all those things and have nothing to do with acceleration. Are you aware that something a small as tread pattern on a tire can affect acceleration?

    The softer suspension won't necessarily affect acceleration once the car is moving, I'm talking about getting off the line. If you took two Azeras and gave one a tighter suspension similar to that of say, the Maxima...that one would most likely get off the line quicker. While the regular Azera is squating down before take off, the one with the Maxima type suspension wouldn't have to squat as much, therefore...leave the line quicker.

    Same thing with a tighter suspension aiding accelerating through a slalom. The softer suspension is going to roll more which effectively will slow you down because you can't navigate a slalom with pronounced roll at higher speeds. Tighted up the suspension and now you can navigate the same slalom at a higher speed. Trust me...it's all relative, it's called physics.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    tread pattern as it would effect traction - that makes sense. 'Squatting' causing any real delay in acceleration standing start or otherwise - don't buy it. Must be a different kind of physics ;)
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