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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Tjc78...you may just get your wish, I think the V-6 models will be FWD, but the V-8 version will be RWD for sure.

    What?

    It has been pretty clear that the Genesis will come as RWD, whether it's V6 or V8.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Louiswei...if it is, then so be it. Like I stated, with the weight distribution being close to even, the Genesis may not experience too many issues in bad weather driving...as long as folks drive like they have some sense about them.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    You are right, from what I have read all models including the V-6 will be RWD. Wouldn't make much sense to have two drivetrains for the same car. I will not be looking at the V8... as much as I would enjoy the power I don't need the penalty at the pump. The 300 or so HP from the V6 will be enough. Even with that I am sure to take a few MPG hit from the Avalon.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    "the Genesis may not experience too many issues in bad weather driving"

    For the little bit of time we experience winter weather here in NJ I am sure it will be fine for me. SC/VSC will most likely be standard (hopefully defeatable!) If we get too much snow, I'll throw a few hundred pounds of stuff over the rear wheels of my S10 and use that instead.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    there are NO FWD cars that I know of that aren't 60+% forward weight biased - of course the Genesis if it is going to have a 375HP V8 or even a 325HP V6 will be RWD, the only way I know of to get that desired 50/50 distribution - and control that nasty torque steer. Haven't heard if Hyundai is going to attempt some 'sports sedan' suspension tuning on the thing but the V6 should be more neutral than the V8 and figure to handle better. Bmws/Mbs etc. generally will put about 52-55% of their weights on the front, and certainly have suspensions that are quite a bit tighter than those you find in the Azera/Avalon XLS-Ltd. Still don't believe, however, that anybody that might spend 50-60k or whatever on one of those German cars is going to give anything made by Hyundai a second look - regardless of how good it may or may not be. We'll see - but I can't imagine that they are worried, there is so much more to a BMW 535/ 550, for example, that Hyundai could logically approach (sophistication wise) anytime soon.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    there are NO FWD cars that I know of that aren't 60+% forward weight biased

    I might be nit picking here but the Acura TL-S has a weight distribution of 59/41. Just goes to show why this car is considered to be one of the best FWD in the whole world.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    First time I've ever heard the Acura TL-S as being one of the best FWD's in the WHOLE world!!!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Tjc78...I'm with you on this, my needs would clearly be met with the mid-level V-6 pushing 325 hp. It's clearly a huge step up from the 263 hp in my Azera. To be honest...I've VERY happy with the power in my Azera. There are plenty that would want the power just because it's 375 ponies regardless of the gas prices. On the flip side, there's probably a greater number that will want a fine balance between power and FE.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I did say "one" of the best. I didn't say "the" best.

    ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...I really can't say yay or nay on that as I haven't driven one myself. I guess I'll have to take your word on it.
  • prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    'there is so much more to a BMW 535/ 550, for example, that Hyundai could logically approach (sophistication wise) anytime soon. '

    This 'sophistication' that BMW possess that you speak of is present only as they have decided to sell automobiles within a specific segment with a profit margin. Do you think they could make a 5-series better. What's better. For some its better styling, for some it is better NVH, for some it is a number of different things. The fact is that BMW targets a segment, decides on their goals and profit and then builds it and offers it. Hyundai does the same thing. Both possess or have access to technology that they have garnered through their own R&D, outsourced to suppliers to build for them and integrate into their vehicles or pay for from other automakers, etc. For instance the Genesis will have the 6-speed ZF tranny. It's not their they buy it. Their Tau 4.6 is theirs developed through their Namyang R&D operation which is 8 centers globally and is the busiest in the world as well as world class.
    Kindly share with me what marginally extreme advanced automotive technology BMW possesses that Hyundai does not have access to or cannot implement into a vehicle, should they decide they are going to build a $55k sports sedan? You can't be so naive to believe that a $67 billion (consolidated revenues) automotive group who has built 30 million cars, has the most advanced plants in the world and has more R&D engineers per capita than any automaker, if they decided to go head-to-head with a Bimmer, that they wouldn't succeed if Chairman Chung said to do it. The Santa Fe, Veracruz and Azera are arguably as good as anything in their segment and are thousands less. It could be argued these vehicles aren't class leaders also and then the counterargument could be that Hyundai has decided to play that segment with a reduced price to gain market share. No one can argue with objective testing figures however. Hyundai's present and emerging technology will compete with or surpass any technology that the 'best' automakers have. You will note that when automtove testing is done on Hyundai's tend to outperform the benchmarks they are tested against e.g. Veracruz is quieter than the RX350, better skidpad, better fuel economy on regular (vs. premium) fuel, equivalent braking and acceleration and fit and finish relative to its $8k reduced sticker. So if they decided to invest an additional $8k, are you telling me that it would outperform the Lexus RX. I think it would surpass the Lexus and yet who would buy it because of the perception issue. There are a lot of variables involved in building and selling an automobile.
    The fact is that BMW is the arguably the best in their segment as is Hyundai is in their. But to say that Hyundai can't build a $55k world class sports sedan is failing to realize who this company is and is to ignore all the variables involved.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    maybe a little bit of nitpicking - but true, the TL is about as good as a FWD car can be - this was one of the cars I considered strongly instead of my Avalon and was surprised by the 'rough' ride (maybe I'm just getting too old) not to mention the T. Steer that came with the 270hp at the time. IMO, while the TL would like to be considered a 'sports' sedan, FWD limitations will always leave that car short if you are also considering things like the 5 series, the Lexus ISs/GSs, A6s, the MB Es etc.but, of course so is the TL's price.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Prosource1...everything you're saying is correct and dead on. However, the problem isn't what Hyundai can actually do, it's more about how the American consumer will accept it. At this point in time...they won't. The scoffed at the idea of a Hyundai costing $30K and everyone that hasn't driven one is trying to find ways to knock it any chance they get. Most of the ones that make the negative comments about the Hyundai vehicles haven't even been inside of one to really know what it's about or what they are capable of.

    Personally, I feel that Hyundai is capable of building a vehicle that can compete directly with Benz, BMW, Lexus, Infinity and the like. However, I can tell you this much...the American consumer is not ready to accept that of them. Unfortunately, until Hyundai changes the perception of the American consumer...they will just have to continue to prove it to them by showing them.

    The redesigned Sonata was a stepping stone, then they restyled the Santa Fe...both products showed they could bring something to market that was visually appealing. Then...the brought in the Azera, a fresh design from the ground up. By far, the best vehicle that Hyundai has made to date. Shortly after giving us the Azera, they decide to launch a full size SUV...the Veracruz, which is making waves in it's own right. Now...the Genesis is set to be released amid much hype.

    I mean...a Hyundai possessing RWD, 6-speed auto w/Shiftronic and all the bells and whistles found in the likes of Toyota (Avalon), Lexus (GS-series), Infinity (M-series), BMW (5-series), Benz (E-class), etc and offering it at a price that gives the working class citizens a chance to own a vehicle that is LIKE the aforementioned and not have to sell their soul. It's just insane and the American consumer just can't fathom it!!!

    There are a few currently that are beginning to accept the idea that the Azera can be compared to the Avalon. A vast many will fight it tooth and nail, simply because...well, you're comparing a Hyundai to a Toyota. I wonder if Honda folks are feeling the same way about Chevy comparing their newly re-designed Malibu to the Accord!!! LOL Anyway...you're absolutely right and there's a lot about Hyundai that Americans do not know simply because it's not Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

    Actually, to further your point...Hyundai can build a $55K world class sports sedan and sell it for the mid-upper $30K's, and that's the problem. In the American way of thinking, it must mean it's cheap so it can't be done. Yet, in the same breath...we want more for less when it comes to most everything else we buy, right? LOL We Americans are a funny bunch.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Couldn't agree with you more. Although Acura's Honda 3.2L V6 (3.5 in the TL-S) is a great engine but it does lack torque and smoothness when comparing to the Toyota 2GR and Nissan VQ (in a lesser degree).

    Too bad this is not the place to talk about the TL...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    So...just because it's a FWD vehicle, it can't be a sports sedan??? :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    to say that Hyundai can't build a $55k world class sports sedan
    OK, if you throw enough money at anything you can also do almost anything - point taken - but the facts are (and will be) that Hyundai won't build a 55k car, simply because they couldn't sell it, just like they seem to be having a hard time getting the consumer to bite on the $30K + sticker on an Azera - even though it can be logically argued that it is comparable to some Avalons (which Toyota has no trouble selling) with stickers several thousand higher. $40k hot rod Hyundais - a contradiction - at least with that "Korean" rep that Hyundai continues to 'enjoy'.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    if there was some way to dial out the understeer created by the front weight bias AND the torque steer created by having an appropriate amount of power - THEN we could have a FWD 'sports sedan' (which to me is a rather nebulous term in itself).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL The point is...Hyundai won't sell a car for $55K, but that doesn't mean the car isn't worth $55K. You see...what Hyundai will do is actually build a car that COULD sell for $55K and sell if for $40K. Heck, the Veracruz...fully loaded with all the bells and whistles you can get...comes pretty darn close to the $40K mark. I know...I priced one out when comparing it with the Saturn Outlook we bought.

    Hyundai WILL make cars that can easily value upwards of $40K, but they will sell it for under that. What I mean is...if you take the Genesis and bring it to market with no badging and nobody knows who makes it and ask them what they think the car is worth...I'm sure you would get a range of $45K on up. I hate to admit it, but it's the italic "H" that brings the perceived value of the car down, simply because of the past that Hyundai has endured. I guess the best analogy to use here is someone that has bad credit and wants to have good credit. It can be done, but it takes time, vision and discipline. Hyundai is working on having good credit and it's not gonna happen over night, but it will happen.

    Hyundai will just have to continue to do what Toyota and Honda did when they started out. Continue to get better until they have proven that they can and will produce solid vehicles that folks can rely on and on top of it all...afford.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Understeer doesn't make it any less of a sports car, it just has to be driven differently...that's all.

    You should watch Pinks! (Speed Channel). I watched an episode where a Honda Civic (hatchback) out ran a Mustang. Torque steer didn't seem to affect the results and you and I both know that it took a great deal of hp (and nitrous) to make it possible, but it happened.

    FWD as a sports car is not the desirable option, but to say a car can't be a sports sedan because it is FWD...that's crazy.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Understeer doesn't make it any less of a sports car,
    IMO, yes it does. A 'sports sedan' or 'sports car' also has as much to do with handling/braking as it does with HP.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Like I said, FWD would be the less desirable option for anyone wanting a sports sedan, but...a sports sedan can still exist with FWD. Just because it's not something YOU would desire...that doesn't me that it isn't.

    You just have to drive a FWD sports sedan differently than you would one with RWD.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a sports sedan can still exist with FWD
    not going to sell that one to this camper! :D
    Thinking that any of the cars of this group (even the 300C/Charger) as sports anythings - now that's crazy - but if you are simply going to define that 'sports' term as meaning simply something that can go fast then we both have one of those- just don't take your Azera out to a road course type track - that (presumedly) modified Honda Civic somebody mentioned would blow its doors off! I'll leave my Avalon in my driveway as well, because there are a number of things that it doesn't do well, despite all that power and regardless of how I drive it. .
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:4201
    Mike
    Do you believe that BMW has a profit of close to 30K on a 55K car?
    If they do, you should load up on their stock.
    If Hyundai is to make a profit on the Genesis, which is being reported to be in the 35K range at the high end, they must have a much better engineering and manufacturing division then BMW if you feel that both cars will be equal.
    Their procurement costs can't be that much better than the competition.
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    We probably can't agree on the definition of a "sports sedan", But an Azera obviously WILL get around a track in a hurry. Sounds good too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqRJrqI5DkU
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    probably can't agree on the definition of a "sports sedan", But an Azera obviously WILL get around a track in a hurry.
    and so can almost all the cars in this group and they would not be 'sports' anythings as well. As I said earlier, HP, by itself, is not the only qualification. In the Azera's case, specifically, it is the heavy understeer, torque steer, and ludicrously soft suspension that dooms any pretensions you might have for it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You can't be so naive to believe that a $67 billion (consolidated revenues) automotive group who has built 30 million cars, has the most advanced plants in the world and has more R&D engineers per capita than any automaker, if they decided to go head-to-head with a Bimmer, that they wouldn't succeed if Chairman Chung said to do it.

    If it was that easy, every automobile manufacturer would be selling the equivalent of a 550i for $25K. So you believe there is no real "sophistication" to the 550i, other than it's price tag, interesting. And because the VeraCruz has better skidpad it's a better vehicle than the RX350 for $8K less or so? Yes, I would like to see Hyundai sell the equivalent $55K 550i for $40K. Not gonna happen.

    I guess anybody can build a better 350 than Lexus or a better 550i than BMW, all they need is to do it. Right? (No the Veracruz is not better in the absolute sense, it may better price adjusted however) You really need to take a nice long and hard spin in a 550 and some other car to see the difference and what the gap is. That is the standard Hyundai has to bridge. Lexus and Infiniti are already trying to nip at their heels.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I never said that the Genesis was equal to a BMW. I said that Hyundai can make a car that would have a value of $55K, but sell it for $40K.

    Like I said, if you brought the Genesis out with NO badging on it and sat folks in it and asked them to give their opinion of what the car should be worth...I guarantee you that you would hear numbers that would range from $40-50K. As soon as you slap the "H" on it...then all the sudden, you lose $15-20K on what folks thought it was worth. If you took that same car and slapped a BMW symbol on it, BMW would be able to sell it for $40-50K...simply because it's a BMW.

    The real question here is, what does it cost BMW to produce, say a single 550i (which spec-wise will compare to the Genesis V-8 model) and compare that to the cost it takes for Hyundai to produce one Genesis. You might find that the difference between production cost and selling price (percentage-wise) may be closer than you think. However, BMW has greater costs going out, especially when it comes to advertising. It would seem that Hyundai has saved a lot of money with the minimal advertising it has had out there.

    Considering the Genesis hasn't hit the showrooms yet, we can only speculate as to how good the build quality is. However...when it does, make sure you go check one out and then check out a 550i and tell me which one you would rather buy...the Genesis @ $37K or the 550i @ $60K

    I'm not saying the quality of the Genesis will be equal to the 550i, but...the quality that you will get for $37K will make it hard to turn your nose up at it. That is my whole point. By not getting the BMW, sure...you make a few concessions, but in the end...saving yourself $20K+, those concessions will quickly become an afterthought!!!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Like I said, if you brought the Genesis out with NO badging on it and sat folks in it and asked them to give their opinion of what the car should be worth...

    This should be done, and then the final test is to smash them into a brick wall.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    So...why is it that a Mercury Marauder can be a sports sedan, but a Grand Marquis can't? :confuse:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    And what would smashing them into a brick wall prove??? :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well, I'm well short of calling any Marauder a 'sports' sedan - but to answer your question. The GM has perhaps the sloppiest suspension that has ever existed while the Marauder was 'tightened' up substantially (didn't it only last a year or two anyway?).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    but that doesn't mean the car isn't worth $55K
    what anything is worth is exactly what it sells for - a new Azera Ltd. is worth $27k because you can buy one for that, the Avalon XLS $35k, and yes even that 535 for $55k. What remains is simply a question of whether you appreciate what that extra money buys you - and it may be more than the superior engineering that happens to go into such things.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The Marauder is as much of a sports sedan as I am to a NBA player...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    louis - if wei would be your last name - it has been proven that Oriental folks can get all the way up to 7'6". So maybe you could be a NBA player and the Marauder was/is a 'sports sedan' ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,907
    "The GM has perhaps the sloppiest suspension that has ever existed"

    I'd give that title to a mid 90s Buick Century myself. The newer GM isn't all that bad, stiffer than it used to be, and rack-n-pinion steering gives it a decent feel on the road. I would say at its limits isn't that much different than what my Av will do.

    The Maurauder wasn't that different a suspension setup than the police unit CVs get. Point taken though, it wasn't a sports sedan any more than when Chevy did the same thing with the Caprice turned Impala SS.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, cap, I am 6'1" and 190 lbs, pretty sure that's not even small using the Western standard so nevertheless compare to other Asians. However, that further proves the point about how much a sports sedan the Marauder is...
  • prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    'And because the VeraCruz has better skidpad it's a better vehicle than the RX350 for $8K less or so? Yes, I would like to see Hyundai sell the equivalent $55K 550i for $40K. Not gonna happen.'

    -You completely blew it with your reading comprehension on what I posted. I said that there is no doubt that this behemonth could build a $55k sedan that would stand up to 5-series. I never said Hyundai could build a $55ker for $40. Also Hyundai doesn't build those and neither does Bimmer build $20k sedans but they could. They know how and if they did it would definitely compete

    -You completely refused to read my post on the RX/Veracruz comparison. Go drive an RX(I have) and a Veracruz(I have) and research the facts. The Veracruz beats the RX in skidpad, beats it NVH properties(it is quieter), has an equally smooth drivetrain, exceeds it in fuel mileage on regular fuel, and nearly equals it in acceleration and braking. So we are talking about vehicles that are both very good vehicles, vehicles that perform equally and the whole aesthetic appeal is subjective so you take the badges off and hand someone $8k and tell them they get the Veracruz and you have a happy non-badged Veracruz owner and a Lexus owner with less room and $8k less money in their hand.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    #4222: "Oriental folks"

    Asian is the correct terminology. I believe "oriental' is considered a slur today.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    I grow tire of PC folks correcting others. Let's let the hosts handle those kinds of things, if they are needed.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    AWD may not really be necessary on the Genesis considering the weight distribution is 57/43.
    57/43 is a pretty poor weight distribution for a RWD car. The Charger R/T which you stated as being unruly in RWD configuration is about 55/45 and even the low tech Mustang GT is 54/46. More expensive RWD cars approach 50/50.
    Part of the high-performance RWD lure is getting the back end loose with the Traction/Stability Control turned off. Leave it on for normal driving, and the car is safe and manageable as long as you have decent tires and respect the power.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    "what anything is worth is exactly what it sells for "

    Is THAT right? LMAO Funny...you pay $35K for and then as soon as you drive it off the lot, it depreciates 15-20%. Is it REALLY worth what you pay for it??? A car is WORTH what it costs to build it, and even that's a stretch!

    Superior engineering and yet...BMW has taken a dip reliability rankings as of late. Superior engineering would mean that wouldn't happen because, well...the engineering is superior, right? Oh wait, Toyota is supposed to have superior engineering and yet...they've been facing some quality issues as well. Are you really paying for superior engineering???

    JVC...a company known for cutting edge technology, but compared to the likes of Kenwood, Sony and Pioneer...costs a bit less, why? Their engineering is top notch, R&D is up there too...the difference is...ADVERTISING!!!! Consumers pay for these companies to advertise. The only time you see JVC ads is at jazz festivals, sporting events and in some magazines. You don't see any commercials. That is where they save the consumer money.

    Keep on thinking you're paying for SUPERIOR engineering, if that's what helps you sleep at night. Between a Genesis and a 550i, I'll save myself $20K+, get a brand spankin new Genesis AND take a SWEET vacation and have money left over to boot! Not to mention, I'll be able to fill up with regular gas vs. premium in the 550i too! :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    That being the case...then maybe AWD would be a viable option. Funny how folks think it isn't and yet, two of the best handling mini-sports cars are the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo and the Subaru WRX. And please, don't say the exotics don't employ AWD...even the Lambo Murcielago is AWD.

    I say just make the AWD function something that can be turned off when you really want to get sporty, since most sport car enthusiast want the ability to break the back end loose. Some actually don't and love a car that can stick to the road like glue and take corners like a train on rails. Either way, I think a defeatable AWD would please the masses and still make the car safer when it comes to driving in rain/snow.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I guess you missed the point of that question, which...you usually do. I understand you just like to see things the way you like to see them. However...the world doesn't revolve around your views and opinions (nor mine for that matter).

    I asked the question about the Marauder vs. the Grand Marquis tongue-in-cheek. The reality is...the Marauder was put out as a "sports" sedan, but it certainly isn't much different than a Grand Marquis...other than more hp, tighter suspension...oh, wait a minute...it's a Grand Marquis with a Crown Vic police package!!! It's RWD, plenty of power, tighter suspension...it MUST be a sports sedan then!!!

    As much as you don't want to accept it, the reality is...sports sedans come in many sizes, shapes and drive train variations. You don't have to like it, and from the tone of your postings...you don't. However...you can't change what already is. I didn't do it, blame it on the auto industry.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    So...why is it that a Mercury Marauder can be a sports sedan, but a Grand Marquis can't? and then later
    I asked the question about the Marauder vs. the Grand Marquis tongue-in-cheek
    well, how am I supposed to interpret then you original post which was anything but 'tongue in cheek' . You seem to be of the school that would have me believe that an Azera (or Avalon or Maxima etc) are sports sedans simply because they have enough power to get out of their own way., and you would seemingly contend that by driving your Azera 'differently' (your post 4207) that you might be able to extract the same sort of performance from it that you would with that $55k car. A new definition of reality I guess. Give me a break - that is a misrepresentation of now only the Azera's dynamic capabilties ( and the other cars in this group) - which are all closer to that Grand Marquis than they are to that BMW.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Think about it Captain...you state that a true sports sedan must be RWD, right? Okay...I mentioned the Marauder because it was marketed as a sports sedan. Like I said earlier...a Grand Marquis with the Crown Vic police package. According to YOUR point of view, it MUST be a sports sedan as it has the power and the tigher suspension, right? Well...the mention of the Grand Marquis was made to imply that since it has the softer suspension and less power, it can't be a sports sedan by your definition. The Marauder still has the same body and looks nothing like a desirable sports sedan and yet...it is, because it meets the criteria YOU established.

    Captain...you obviously have not read previous postings where I have stated that the Azera is NOT a sports sedan, nor is the Avalon. The Maxima...well, I'm not the one saying it's a sports sedan, but it is.

    If my Azera had a sport tuned suspension, then yes...it could be a sports sedan as it has the hp and the ability to even be shifted manually as well.

    You, my friend have taken what I said and turned it into something else. I have at no time EVER said that the Azera is a sports sedan. Since when have you ever seen me post anything about comparing the performance of my Azera to that of a $55K car??? I think you're getting your postings mixed up. My comparisons have been between the Genesis and the 550i...and yeah, I think I can spend $37K and get a car that will perform like a $55K one.

    P.S. The Grand Marquis can't hold a candle to the Azera.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    didn't know that the Genesis weight dist. was as BAD as 57/43 - assume that that's what it is with the V8, and the V6 may be a tad better. If you remember the way old days when Ford and Pontiac (Mustang/Falcon, GTO/Tempest) , took underpowered, poorly engineered 'compacts' and shoehorned in big ole V8s and called them 'sports cars' - what a joke - and largely because they were 60% (or so) front weight biased ,understeering handfuls, with poor brakes, that also required some special care/abilities when driving them on the 'slipperies'. Drive a vintage Mustang today and you'll wonder who in their right mind would've bought the thing.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as I have also said - being RWD is not the only qualification either , although it sure as heck helps with that weight dist. problem as well as those dynamic problems created when the same wheels that are powering a vehicle as also turning it.

    you admit to your Azera not being a sports sedan but then you turn around and say:
    If my Azera had a sport tuned suspension, then yes...it could be a sports sedan as it has the hp and the ability to even be shifted manually as well So therefore, my Aavlon Touring which does have the power, the 'sports' shifter, and the tightened up suspension must be a 'sports' sedan? Not by a long shot!
    IMO I don't care what they do to an Azera/Avalon/Maxima but you are never going to get any of those cars to approach the neutral dynamics of something like a 535 etc. We have talked about this before but the best example of an attempt to 'redefine' the 'sports sedan' in a FWD platform might just be the TL - a very fine car that (again IMO) falls short of achieving what BMW (and others) do, for example.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    PS - obviously agree with you - the Grand Marquis doesn't hold a candle to any of the cars in this group as even that 200hp V6ed Lucerne would be preferable, IMO.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Superior engineering and yet...BMW has taken a dip reliability rankings as of late"

    What has this got to do with anything? The latest CR has (3,5,7) and other models recommended. Lexus has superior engineering over Hyundai and they have made mistakes.

    Keep on thinking you aren't paying for superior engineering. Go test drive some cars back to back. It's possible you won't be able to tell the difference, but it has nothing to do with the cars. :P
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes...because of the tuning the the suspension...the Azera can't be a sports sedan as it can't handle as a sports car should. Tighten up the suspension with a true sport tuned suspension, then yes...the Azera COULD be a sports sedan. However, the reality is...it's a highway cruiser.

    The Avalon has a tighter suspension than an Azera, but it's not as tight as that found on the Maxima, so no...I would not go so far as to call your Avalon a sports sedan...again, like my Azera...a nice highway cruiser...as it was intended for by design.

    I never said that any of these cars would approach the neutral dyanamics of higher priced sport sedans. I have only said and still say...that you can have a FWD sport sedan...this is the point you contend. Again, READ what I say so you get it word for word.

    IF...you put a sport tuned suspension on the Azera (or even the Avalon for that matter), you could make them sport sedans as that is the main thing lacking by those two cars. Well...maybe better side bolstering in the front seats to keep you in place for handling aggressive cornering. The only difference is...you won't drive them the same way as you would a BMW or any other RWD sport sedan. However, that's not to say that a FWD sport sedan can't be pushed as hard as a RWD sport sedan...it just takes the skill to do it.
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