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Comments
I'll probably move to something smaller next time around but while I still had the chance, I wanted to have a V-8 (almost sounds like a commercial). I'm willing to trade the technological edge and refinement for the muscle and sweet music that is generated by my engine. MT claims the new CTS V-6 has been tuned to emit a very nice tone from the exhaust. But, I still imagine it will be an apples to oranges comparison. Hopefully it does sound nice (because I really like the car on paper) but I'm thinking it's probably MORE true that it sounds great.....for a V-6.
Roland
The Pontiac uses wider tires on the front ( 255s ) than the rear ( 225s ). This helps a whole bunch to combat the understeer caused by the front drive and front biased weight distribution. I'm not a big fan of the exterior styling, but the interior, IMO, outclasses the Impala as well.
and this would be true - if you had told me a few years back that I could have 268hp in a FWD sedan with no torque steer problems I certainly would have argued - pointing to cars like my 190hp 1990 Maxima and my wife's 03 240hp Altima as examples. Unquestionably there are some tricks (like delaying the application of full throttle (Acura) and geometry improvements available, but isit is interesting to note as we break the 300hp barrier with mostly these V8s that there is a movement back to RWD with cars like the G8/new Impala, Genesis etc. FE issues will also make these V8s increasingly harder to sell as well as we inevitably approach $5 gas. 'Trick' DOD systems haven't shown to be a real answer - even Chrysler claims only a 10% FE improvement, and CR has reported that the 300C had the most overrated EPA FE estimates(under the old system). The new G8 will have a standard 3.6 liter V6 putting out about 260hp ( a variant of that CTS engine you are talking about) and a V8 putting out 362hp - which would allow that 2 ton+ car sub 6 second 0-60s easily along with 12-15 mpg City FE (I'm guessing).- Even though the 3.6 V6 has not shown to be especially economical relative to engines like the 2GR and VQ you still have to wonder who is going to buy these new 'gas hogs' as they become available? Unless , of course, gas prices go into a massive retreat.....
The G8 is getting wider tires, better suspension and everything because it's being pushed as a sports sedan...direct competition for the Hyundai Genesis really. In my opinion...the G8 can be a very nice feather in the GM cap because the current Impala SS (or any other trim level for that matter)...well, there's nothing inspiring about it.
I honestly don't think the G8 will have different sized tires in the front compared to the rear. I can understand controlling the understeer issue with wider, lower profile tires because when I have the 20" wheels with the 245/35-20 tires on my Azera...the understeer is very minimal. I also have that size tire all the way around, so they can be rotated.
Nah...I really don't think Pontiac would create a situation where tires can't be rotated. That's reserved for the exotics (Vettes included).
it wouldn't necessary need to - would it - it is RWD.... The different sizing on the GP he was talking about is because the car is FWD and illustrates the types of things that can be done to minimize the torque steer that comes with all that power. Radial tire rotation is simply back-to- front so if Pontiac has created a situation that the tires can't be rotated then what have they done? 20" wheels and 35 series tires on a car that is really a 'family sedan' is silly, IMO - perhaps you really do think you have an Acura-eating sports car?
Well...I wanted the 20" wheel for the look, to keep the entire wheel and tire package within spec, the tire size had to be 245/35-20 as to not mess with the speedometer.
Do I think I have an Acura-eating sports car? LOL Well...it gobbled up a 2006 TL in a straight run. Would I try it against the TL in the slalom...I highly doubt it. No, I do not think I have a sports car, it is merely a classy looking family sedan that just has some very good get up & go.
and yes I did recently switch out my 215/55/17s to 235/50/17s on my Avalon, keeping the stock wheels that the car was designed for and putting about 3/4" more tread (width) on the road, which did cost me a tad in the FE dept. BTW.
Okay...first of all, the wheel design I chose is much more open than the stock wheels, so there's less metal. The weight...well, believe it or not...there's only a couple lbs. difference between the stock and aftermarket wheels. Braking...took care of that...switched to ceramic pads which will handle any extra heat created by the extra weight. The rotors...since I don't drive hard, the factory 12" rotors will suffice.
As far as the suspension...the car actually corners better, tracks better and rides very well. The extra weight doesn't affect it at all. I mean...the car is designed to carry up to 5 passengers and cargo in the trunk right? Well...since I don't ferry 5 passengers and a trunk full of stuff all the time...I really don't think the suspension has an issue with a few extra pounds that don't even equal up to one human being.
There was no salesman trying to sell me an upgrade, I've been "hooking" up my cars for years and I know how to go about it. Just because it's not something you would do, doesn't mean it's something that can't be done and still maintain the integrity of the vehicle. Granted, there are plenty of cars on the road that are quite outrageous with the upgrades.
Are there trade-offs to be made...sure. However...I'll give up a tiny bit of FE for better handling, steering response and braking. All of which, are improved with the 20" wheels on. For me...spending extra money and keeping the stock size just didn't make any sense to me, the whole idea for putting aftermarket wheels on is for a drastic change in appearance, ride, control and handling. I wasn't going to pay all that money for a single profile change to switch to an 18" wheel and at the time...there were no 19" wheels that appealed to me. So...that left wheels of the 20" nature. Heck, I even did my homework and talked with my Hyundai tech about switching wheels and he explained as long as keep the overall tire/wheel diameter within stock specs...I won't have any problems at all. Even he said the little extra weight won't hurt the car in handling, but of course...a couple pounds would slow it down a hair. Okay...big deal, I'm not racing the car (*snicker* regularly).
To be honest...with it being driven as it is...there were really no great sacrifices made for my upgrade. Thank you for your concern though.
Maybe. The sticker on the door jamb of the driver's door will give you the max weight you should carry. In my Accord, it is 850 lbs. Depending on the passengers, I could max out at 4 people.
The difference with the wheels is that they are unsprung weight.
The new logo does look very good on the car, along with what seemed like great looking chromed wheels. My overall impression of the car was that it looked like an upscale sedan, but was not so exotic or beautiful that it screamed I have to buy this car.
I looked at the rest of the site (virtually all in Korean), but did see that the V8 HP showed 380, with the 3.8 at 290. They also offer a smaller turbo engine, I think, in the Korean model. There were vritually no interior shots. But some features listed were in English, like the new active headlight capability.
Let me guess...you carry a scale around and weigh everything you put into your car so you can stay within "specs".
Dude!
Again, the difference in weight is a mere couple of pounds. Not saying it doesn't make a difference, but it hasn't and there have been no problems.
Whether a Ford, Toyota, or Hyundai, there are aftermarket parts which can get us closer to the performance or capability of the car we want. We typically argue about the stock versions, but if someone wants to spend the time and money, all can be significantly upgraded. (One good reason to spend less on the original, is if you want to upgrade it to a level the mfg would never choose). Hey, if an owner is concerned about brakes on his Azera, there are upgrades available including not just ceramic pads, but cross drilled larger rotors, and two piston calipers (just for starters).
Seriously...why does it have to be about Hyundai wanting to pull buyers of the high end cars? Did you ever stop to think about maybe, Hyudai is offering an alternative for those that desire those high end cars, but don't have the financial means to make it happen???
In my opinion, if you want to be be big, you have to aim big. Hyundai wants respect and I think they are going the right way to get it. Could it blow up in their face...of course, but if they succeed, it's a smart business move.
Oh, and actually...I've seen buyers of those high end cars actually trading in above said vehicles for Hyundai vehicles or buying one as a 2nd vehicle. I guess they are open minded enough to realize a great value and a viable option to spending more money than they have to. Yes...SOME want to spend the extra money for the "status" it brings them. I guess I'm not so materialistic and shallow that I need to do that as my car does not define who I am or where I stand in life.
If I were driving the car hard and making it something of a "sports" sedan that I would race regularly...I would upgrade to a cross drilled rotor and get the twin piston calipers. However, my driving habits really don't require those type of upgrades.
I understand the Captain's concern...there are a lot of folks out there that do upgrade a car and throw caution to the wind. They just put something on without thinking about how it affects the car just because they think it's cool. Before I put anything on my car, I want to know what effect that particular change will have...good or bad. If the bad outweighs the good...I stay away from it.
I do know that I would go give it a look or a drool and I suspect you would also find a reason to stop by a showroom. While I said the basic looks of the car were not so drop dead gorgeous, that I would commit crimes to own one, it was more than appealing enough for me to want an extended test drive about as soon as they are available.
Like I said before...this is more about making something available to those of us that don't have pockets to allow us the pleasure of a 5-Series, E-Class or M. Nothing more, nothing less.
an opinion obviously that it won't work - when Toyota spun off Lexus it already had a really good reputation for quality cars and further had sense enough to start a whole new dealer system - all 'worked' quite well didn't it? If Hyundai can produce a car equal to some of those 50k specials I mentioned (the supposition being that they can) then I'm suggesting that they do it with a different brand name and RAISE the price of the thing if for no other reason than to encourage exclusivity.
You're missing the point (as usual). In the case of the Genesis...it's not about creating a costlier brand, it's about making something available to those that can't afford it from other brands because the other brands want $15K+ for something similar. What are you not understanding here???
Nah, but in general, I know I can carrythree of my guy friends, or four friends if some are girls. (I have two guy friends that are over 250 lbs, one is 335 lbs). If I tried carrying four people that size they wouldn't be too comfortable anyway! I'm 190, with those two friends we're already right near the capacity the engine, suspension, and brakes are meant to handle in my car.
And, the wheels wouldn't be included in the weight the car can carry, because they are what is actually holding up the car. Unsprung weight, not included in the payload, iirc.
I understand your point that they don't weigh much more than the other wheels you had -just for reference sake do I mention the unsprung weight for others' benefit should they choose heavier wheels than you did.
Funny you should say folks didn't want to pay that much for a Mazda, but there sure were a lot of Millenias on the road when they were selling them.
I have nothing against the history you're stating, which is why I made the comment that Hyundai is better served waiting until they've been more consistent with their products in the reliability department. Once they have accomplished that and folks really start to recognize that fact...they'll be able to pull something off like a premium brand.
With the likes of the Azera and the Veracruz...and the fact that the Genesis will have 3 different models starting at the high $20K's with the fully loaded V-8 model in the mid to upper $30K's...I think they have a good strategy. I think what you'll see is a whole bunch of mid-level trim Genesi (would that be the plural spelling LOL) on the road and a sprinkling of the V-8 models. Simply because like you've said before...if gas goes up towards that $5 mark...who's gonna want a V-8?
No they won't. But Hyundai aspires to be their equal, and not that of US brand name RWD sedans.
and
Hyundai is better served waiting until they've been more consistent with their products in the reliability department. Once they have accomplished that ...
you never heard of it because it never happened, and the Millenia which was a damn good and relatively expensive car (for a Mazda), was a slow seller and dies a slow death. I bring it up only because I see some parallels with what Hyundai is attempting - is the world ready for a $40k window sticker when that sticker also says Hyundai? I think not - and it just might be the greatest thing since sliced bread as you proponents contend. The Azera is a damn fine effort on Hyundai's part, but its sales have been unremarkable despite its relatively low initial pricing - the reason for this perhaps that the world ain't ready for a $30k sticker on a Korean car either?
As for the second comment: consistency - both the Sonata and the Azera are not aging as well (CR ratings) as they should if Hyundai is ever going to be able to attain that 'quality' rep that Toyota (and Honda) have profited from for all these years. It is not necessarily the car's qualities that make it successful, it is what people think about the car, rightly or wrongly, and probably in never having actually looked at one or driven one.
Hyundai really shot themselves in the foot with the lack of marketing, considering this was supposed to be the car that turned their image around.
As much a fan as I am of Hyundai, I was skeptical of the Azera Limited costing $30K. When I went in and they offered it to me for $26K...I was sold.
As far as consistency, I think the problem is that Hyundai is starting to spread themselves too thin. I mean...adding the Tucson to the mix seemed smart to address the small SUV segment, so they had everything from sub-compact cars to mid-sized SUV's and everything in between. Then...they decided they needed the full-size sedan, full-size SUV and now they want to introduce a full-sized "sport" sedan aimed at the European offerings.
Personally...I think they should have waited and concentrated on the line-up they had to ensure consistent quality.
The problem now is most folks that have something negative to say about a Hyundai vehicle...hasn't been in one or driven one either period or as of late. They are mostly going on their impressions of the past. If half of those folks actually went and test drove one...I think they may not be as critical.
ever seen ad of any sort for an Avalon? Or any sort of rebate or other 'marketing' tool?
NOT
the well deserved rep the Av had at the time was one of a super reliable 'old folks car. So what happened? The Avalon went from selling 3000 copies a month to almost 10000 back at its intoduction in 2005 - and at a price closer to $35k a copy! A good illustration of the power (or lack of it) in a name, don't you think?
if it makes you feel any better - so is Toyota.
"introduction in 2005" Ummmmmmm...don't you mean redesign? The Avalon has been around for AGES, seemlingly. You do remember when the Avalon looked like a bloated Camry, right?
Are you looking at the same CR figures I am? According to CR's website the Azera is all above average to excellent(a few minor categories slipped from excellent to above average from 06 to 07, I'll concede that). The Sonata is listed as all excellent for all the 07 models which is actually up in one category from the 06 models. And both the Azera and the Sonata are recommended models. That seems to be a recipe for consistency to me. Please correct me if I am wrong.
True, as the '05+ Avalon was the first vehicle with the 2GR and the new platform. However, I can't imagine that Toyota developed the Avalon having only the Avalon in mind. The Camry and Avalon (and ES, RX, Highlander, Sienna, RAV4, Solara did I miss any?) have always shared many components and I don't think that will ever change. This is also the reason that the Av will remain FWD, Toyota keeps the price down by sharing parts. If the Av was that different from the Camry it would start at over 35K going well into the 40s.
BTW... the older Avalons were always available with bucket seats. My '03 had buckets and when I was shopping for it, I never saw one with a bench.
"The 'old folks' rep is still out there"
No offense to anyone... I think it is still out there because there is some truth to it. I have never seen anyone as young as me (29) driving an Avalon, and most drivers that I see in them here in south Jersey are 60+. Fine with me, many people are missing out on a great car, and one of the best stop light sleepers on the market.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
As someone even younger than you (20 years old, and a Junior in college) I've been impressed by a couple of these large sedans as well. Sedans that would definitely NOT be marketed towards me (Taurus, for one). Some are just GREAT deals for what all you get.
And, if it makes you feel any better (although you don't seem to feel bad!) I'm 6'4" and was fine in a midsizer Accord, but a friend of mine from school is 6'7" (University of Alabama at Birmingham football player) and drives an older Avalon as well (maybe a '97-'98). He's 24.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/deadwayt/CR.jpg
The Sonata I4 is clearly above average and exceeded many other performers in the pack.
The Sonata V6 was average but per CR it was still predicted to be much better than other V6 models such as Camry, Altima, Mazda6, Aura, Passat, among others (all are in the black hole - less than average, by the way).
Let's move on, this is not a forum on CR/JDP/etc
There would be no reason for the G8 to have wider tires on the front than the rear since as a rear drive car it will probably carry less than 55% of its weight on the front wheels - as opposed to the 60-65% that these FWD cars carry. In fact many higher powered RWD cars mount wider tires on the rear to combat power induced oversteer. Those wider tires usually include wider and/or differing offset wheels than the front, hence cannot be rotated.
You have previously noted the " YouTube " posting of the Azera at Virginia Raceway. Did you also note that that Azera ( driven by a racetrack instructor ) had 245 tires in the front and 225s on the rear? Simply an attempt to " balance " the handling.
The Genesis...oh no my friend, that's Hyundai's foray into the luxury sport sedan segment...while it may still be a horse, it's a horse of another color...of course!
What do you mean by, "...or will follow Toyota..."
Don't feel bad, the Azera has the "old folks" rap as well. Most of the posters here that have one are 45+ (I'm pretty sure), I'm only 37 myself. However, as of late...I've started seeing a few Azeras in my area with younger guys/gals driving them. The Avalon...there's a sprinkling that I've seen with a younger person at the wheel as well. I have seen one Avalon in my area where the guy put some 20" chrome wheels, tinted the windows and it looked VERY sharp. I didn't even know what it was from a distance. I'm not saying it takes 20" wheels, but I tell you...it really looked nice.