Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2 · January 2008

nope the same CR, the I4 Sonata does indeed keep its high rating, it is the V6 that only manages the 'average' - it is the Azera that is showing a rather significant decline. As I noted in that earlier post (4338) it is now the Lucerne V8 and Avalon that lead this group, last year it was the Azera followed by the Avalon.. Besides which didn't know that they really sold too many 4 bangers, the Sonata is a pretty large car in its class and its V6s tend to be cheaper than some of their competitors 4 s.
But back to the original point of this thread, I see nothing in these reliabililty studies that is going to change a public perception that I'll argue does exist that 'Korean' cars are 'cheap' and therefore not a viable alternative to those buyers that seemingly Hyundai seems to think (hope) the Genesis is. For Hyundai to change its rep they need to be able to produce a whole line full of I4 Sonatas and do it for something more than a few years - then the car buyer might just pay more attention to it. My guess is that regardless of how good the Genesis may or may not be - it is doomed for failure - people will look at a $40k sticker on a well appointed Genesis, shake their head and say '40 grand for a Hyundai - no way' And unfortunately for Hyundai they likely won't even drive it. I think the same thing is happening as well at a lower level with the Azera, car buyers expect 'Korean' cars to cost 10 grand - not 30 or 40!

allmet33 · January 2008

To be honest, I wasn't paying attention to the tires in the You Tube posting. I can say that the wider tires do make a difference. Like I said before with my 20" wheels on, the tires are 245/35-20...all the way around. Understeer is much less pronounced than when I have the factory wheels and tires on, handling is much, much better and it tracks extemely well in curves.

Most of the high powered RWD vehicles like that, are the "exotics" that I mentioned before. I know the Lexus GS line has the same tires all the way around, I believe the Infinity M does as well. Not sure when it comes to the BMW 5-Series or Benz E-Class though.

ronsmith38 · January 2008

Dale Jarrett Ford near Charlotte, NC advertises $8000 off MSRP on the new 2008 Ford Taurus including all rebates. One example is listed at $16988! Fine print points out that not all will qualify for all rebates.

allmet33 · January 2008

Since when will the Genesis be going for $40K??? It's been stated that it will start out in the mid/upper-$20K's and fully loaded top of the line...mid/upper-$30K's.

Most folks without a clue would expect Korean cars to cost $10K, those that actually take the time to take the likes of the Azera and Veracruz for a test drive, will definitely see a vehicle worth the price range it is in.

By the way, Captain...have YOU driven an Azera, much less...sat in one???

captain2 · January 2008

the Avalon has never been highly advertised, promoted, rebated etc etc. at any time in its existence TMK - it has simply been there rolling along selling a few thousand copies a month - a gussied up Camry. Its 'old folk' rep was certainly not to its benefit. The 05 which really was a new car, much in the same way the Azera was a year later, and was also the first Toyota/Lexus product to use the 2GR.
The previous median age for the Avalon buyer was apparently 64 and was definitely not even on my shopping list back in the spring of 2005 and I really just kinda lucked into it. Saw a car I didn't recognize (they only had the one) displayed prominently in front of a dealer - it was a large sedan that reminded me of a BMW (from the rear, anyway) - closer examination revealed 280hp and FE of 22/31 - it said 'Avalon on the trunk - you've got to be be kidding. The power/FE specs were better than anything else out there at the time in those respects (still is, I guess) - so followed that up with a quick test drive (Touring model) and the rest as they say is history. The fact that its says 'Avalon' on the trunk was not to my preference I suppose although I'll freely admit that the fact that it has the Toyota emblem led me to violate one of my rules in buying a car - never buy a truly new car in its first year of production.
The Azera, of course, wasn't available yet - I do have a neighbor that ended up buying a loaded to the gills 'Limited' for about $28k drive out (I think) after I told him that he needed to check it out. He has been very satisfied with it. Had I waited the extra year, can't tell you that I wouldn't have ended up in one, although frankly I think that those first model year jitters along with the FE difference would still have landed me in the Av.

PS. at the time I was trying to find my Avalon (it was tough back then) I saw a dealer optioned Limited that had a price tag of well over $40k included some 19" chromies and summer tires that they wanted an extra $8k for!

captain2 · January 2008

yep - see 4457. I am an incorrigible car nut, do alot of reading and take advantage of so many 'free' test drives - that I wonder when the dealers will start recognizing me

Think they do but its easier now that my Avalon is a little older. As I have said many many times I find the Azera to be a solid ride, perhaps a little soft for my taste and perhaps a little too Buicky looking from the rear.

allmet33 · January 2008

May I ask, what Buick have you looked at to say the Azera looks Buicky from the rear??? If anything, it leans more heavily towards BMW than the Avalon does.

captain2 · January 2008

full width tailight treatment reminds me of those previous LeSabres/Centurys etc. Buick abandoned this style in the Lacrosse/Lucerne. The Lucerne in particular, I like the looks of.

jaymagic · January 2008

I remember the original Avalon. I believe the bench seat was the base, with individual seats as a option. The Captain is right when he says there was NO advertising for the Avalon in the early years, and frankly not much even today. I think it truly is more of a word of mouth vehicle (as is the Azera in my opinion). This forum has, if nothing else, been indicative of the small coterie of Azera owners (including yours truly) being rabid about their Azzy's. When I got my 85 year old mother an Avalon XLS, she loved it for two main reasons -- first, the key went in straight, not into the column and was easy for her to turn and, second, the auto tranny shifted with less effort than we found on Volvo's, BMW's, MB's, and Buick's. The only other car she was interested in trading her big blue Lincoln Continental in on, was a Chrysler 300 and I was not interested in having to worry about its reliability. So, I pushed her for the Avalon and it was a great car. Although she still has a license (at 91) she no longer drives, but does love the Azera .

I believe that the owners of Azera's and Avalon's that post here regularly are well aware that we do not own sport sedans and probably weren't looking for a sport sedan when we bought our cars. I'm sure Taurus and Buick owners are in the same grouping. We want a larger car with lots of amenities and enough power not to be embarrassed to be seen driving in the fast lane. Decent fuel economy is important, but we didn't go looking for hybrids.

allmet33 · January 2008

That's about where you can draw the line, because the lines of the Azera from the back look nothing like a Buick in any way, shape or form. If that's the case, you can say the same thing of the Sonata as well.

captain2 · January 2008

$8000 off MSRP on the new 2008 Ford Taurus
if true - more bad news for Ford, read an article this morning that has Land Rover and Jaguar being bought ($2 billion) by a truck co. from India supposedly so Ford can concentrate on its money losing US operations.

captain2 · January 2008

that Toyota developed the Avalon having only the Avalon in mind
yeah they did - the Avalon being designed in Calif, built of course in Ky. from parts that are also largely (90% ?) mfgd. here. It is not sold anywhere else in the world apparently (except for Canada). The engine/drivetrain OTH a different story in terms of why they developed it, however, and as it too is made here, and I understand it is actually being exported to Japan, where most of the Lexus models are assembled. Read something somewhere that the 2GR actually costs Toyota $1000.00 less to produce than the 3 and 3.3 liter engines that preceded it. Fine with me as well, it's a helluva engine and I'm apparently keeping food on some dinner tables in Missouri somewhere to boot!

captain2 · January 2008

good post - if I remember correctly the front bench also got you a column mounted (had to be obviously) - something that would logically be of even more appeal to those older 'traditionists' that would've had a hard time adjusting to anything other than one of those 'wonderful' Grand Marquis' (or big blue Town Cars)

.

quietpro · January 2008

The old-gen Avalon was the Cressida. I believe the change in names came about in the late 90s. The Cressida was big and boxy like the old Camries and was extremely "old-folksy."

alexstore · January 2008

when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus

allmet33 · January 2008

I would like to think that Hyundai made a note of that and won't follow that way of doing things.

Funny thing is...we don't expect the imports to do that, but it's a way of life for the domestic companies that do it. I mean...the difference between a Ford and a Lincoln/Mercury is grille treatment, some extra padding, maybe a lil more faux wood trim and viola! Mopar was like that for a long time too, but it seems they figured it out. I mean...the 300 and Charger are sister vehicles, mechanically the same, but visually different.

Hard to say really...maybe they'll introduce the Genesis under the Hyundai umbrella and see how it does...then maybe move it under their luxury umbrella when they introduce it. I can see them making a full luxury version of the Azera as their entry level luxo car, then the Genesis (sedan and coupe), followed by a luxury version of the Veracruz.

However...they need to get some things right with the current line-up they have now. Well, not necessarily get it right, but just show consistency over a longer period of time. For a while, I was thinking that Hyundai & Kia would be the likes of Ford & Lincoln/Mercury, but it seems that even though they share ownership...Kia clearly wants its own identity.

louiswei · January 2008

when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus

Uh...what?

Does that apply to the original LS400 as well?

thegraduate · January 2008

when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus

Uh...what?

Check out a 1990 Camry, then a 1990 Lexus ES250.

Acura and Honda did the same, with the Acura Legend and the Honda Accord. Look at both 1989 models.

captain2 · January 2008

alex - not exactly - the only Lexus car model that is really correspondent to anything with a Toyota label is the ES, of course - it being the only Lexus to be assembled here and still very close to a rebadged Camry. The Lexus Gs, ISs, and LSs are unique cars that all happen to be RWD. When Toyota introduced Lexus it was the LS400 at about $40-50k and certainly not close to anything Toyota was selling at that time (and even today).
Nissan, of course, has been a champion rebadger and was doing the same thing with the J30 and I30 being rebadged Maximas and only having the Q45 to truly represent the Infiniti line. Boy, things have sure changed recently though with the G and the M now correspondent to the Lexus ISs and Gs respectively - a 'competition' that many experts has Nissan wins.

alexstore · January 2008

They should look into Nissan now. NEW NIssan Vehicles have completely different appearance from Infinity. Nissan has hard lines and you can see soft lines on Infinity cars/SUVs

louiswei · January 2008

Check out a 1990 Camry, then a 1990 Lexus ES250.

I know, but my question was on the LS400.

Back in 1990 was there any Toyota which I can just change the bumper and grille and make it a LS400?

thegraduate · January 2008

No, but what he said was he could buy a Toyota and make it a Lexus with some simple changes. He didn't specify which Lexus.

louiswei · January 2008

it being the only Lexus to be assembled here and still very close to a rebadged Camry.

Actually all ES are assembled in Japan. The only Lexus that is assembled here is the RX I believe.

By the way, why are we talking about Lexus here?

louiswei · January 2008

His original words:

"when Toyota introduced lexus all you had to do is get different bumper and grille on to your car and it was a lexus"

He didn't say which particular Lexus. From that sentence I think he was generalized to "ALL" Lexus models back in 1990.

louiswei · January 2008

NEW Nissan Vehicles have completely different appearance from Infinity.

Really? You may want to check out the new Altima coupe with the G coupe. Also the FX with the Murano. Also, how about the QX54 and the Nissan Armada.

By the way, it's "Infiniti" not "Infinity".

pat · January 2008

wandering a bit here?

Seems like we have enough to ~~argue about~~ discuss without dragging a bunch of off-topic stuff in here as well.

briansh · January 2008

I know why Azera sales are slow...there was no marketing done when it first hit the market. Nothing preceding it's release and nothing steady afterwards. I can literally count on one hand (have fingers left over) how many times I saw a commercial for the Azera,

Actually i think they didn't market Azera on purpose. Azera is one of the best selling models in KDM and the price tag for 2.4 model starts at about 24k, and top of the line V6 3.8 model at about 38k.

Production capacity for Azera in Korea being limited, and only Sonatas and SFs being manufactured in Alabama, they need to sell Azera in KDM first and sell more Sonatas and SFs in US market.

If they bring out Genesis in US market, their goal is not to sell as many Genesis as possible. Their goal is to sell more Sonatas and Santa Fes, at least for a couple of more years.

floridabob1 · January 2008

RE: 4436
Mike
I agree that Hyundai has done a poor job in marketing the Azera.
They originally introduced the Azera as their new "flagship" entry into the near luxury market.
In my opinion, the Azera is a good car but the company has done little to update the short falls since it's introduction.
For some unknown reason they have added way more advanced features to other models but have not incorporated them into the Azera.
The question is, with the upcoming introduction of the Genesis, will there be a slot for the Azera?
I realize that they will be two different platforms and therefore theoretically two different markets, but a manufacturer can't have two different "flagships".
I believe that they should have built on the Azera line prior to the introduction of the Genesis.

garym1j · January 2008

allmet33.

First thankyou and floridabob for you expertise and participation in the forum. You guys have emerged as our resident experts.

A quote from your last: "only Sonatas and SFs being manufactured in Alabama"
When criticized by a friend for not "buying American" I mentioned that the Azera was assembled in the US by American workers. So much for that defense. Guess I will go back with a retraction. Anyway, thanks for your continuing contributions to the forum.

dborth · January 2008

re. 4480: If they bring out Genesis in US market, their goal is not to sell as many Genesis as possible.

Genesis could be the greatest thing since buttered popcorn. If your observation above rings true, they have another huge flop that never gets off the ground, just like Azera.

tjc78 · January 2008

"It is not sold anywhere else in the world apparently (except for Canada)."

Didn't know that. The previous generation was available in Japan and called the Pronard.

colloquor · January 2008

As a Hyundai owner, in addition to a Honda, I think that Hyundai really does a relatively poor job of marketing, much akin to Kia's marketing. Renaming trims doesn't help either, as they've done pretty much across the board with all models in the last couple of years. The latter is very confusing for customers.

And, the new facelift for the 2009 Sonata - a tremendous improvement of the interior, also unfortunately includes exterior changes which negatively affect the car. It's too bad they simply didn't upgrade the interior, and leave the exterior alone.

It really appears that Hyundai's marketing department is going in several directions at once, rather than a focused and cohesive marketing plan for their entire model line. It will be very interesting to see the advertising program for the Genesis, especially the positioning of the print advertising (which magazines), and the TV advertising.

thegraduate · January 2008

To me, the Azera does remind me of the rear-end treatment of the previous-gen Buicks, as well. Not identical, but something about the design definitely has a 1999 Buick flair.

It doesn't look BAD per se, but it isn't a clean or crisp as the Sonata, it's better looking smaller sibling.

captain2 · January 2008

Genesis could be the greatest thing since buttered popcorn. If your observation above rings true, they have another huge flop that never gets off the ground, just like Azera.
well said - and for all those that think that a few TV ads are the answer - how about public acceptance of the name to go along with a price tag? Genesis, with stickers maybe approaching $40k, ought to run a promo that every 10th test driver gets a free car - then some people might actually consider the car for what it may be. Hyundai may indeed be improving both their cars and their name - but they are easily 5 or 10 years away from making a go out of a successful 'sport/lux' sedan.

captain2 · January 2008

tjc - I think it actually has more to do with we Americans who have been shown to like 'big and soft' along with our wide roads and cheap gas - in Europe the Av as well as any of these cars would difficult to drive on any of their roads (excl. the Autobahns) and would also run afoul of displacement taxes on the 200+ CI engines. 22-23 mpg overall is very good over here but over there where gas is triple the price a different story. The Avalon would almost certainly need to be a diesel over there as about half the cars are. So the Avalon was designed for use in America by Americans, is further built be Americans using almost entirely parts and pieces also made in America. There are few cars, in this group (or any other) that can claim to be as 'American' - something that is getting harder and harder to find these days. And still, after 3 years, the highest rated car in this group!

tjc78 · January 2008

I know where you are coming from here. Large sedans do have their most captive audience in this country. My whole point is that very few manufacturers use a powertrain, chassis etc on one vehicle. Yes, I do agree that the Avalon is as "American" as any Toyota can get, however, the basic frame, suspension, and the 2GR trickles down the Toyota line. Toyota did it right this time, create an entirely new car for their flagship, then allow future vehicles to use bits of its design.

"And still, after 3 years, the highest rated car in this group!"

I don't see that changing anytime soon!

captain2 · January 2008

don't see that changing anytime soon!
this actually is somewhat surprising to me - a lot of what is good about the Avalon - the power/FE, interior egronomics, comfort etc etc. is largely because some of these new technologies that I often diss. What surprises me is that some of the competition hasn't dissected the car (or more precisely the engine in it) in a laboratory somewhere, and used some even newer technologies to improve on it. Those kind of things (better technologies) do move rather quickly and Toyota certainly has no exclusive on them. But it actually has been 4 model years, 2005 thru 2008, and the Avalon has yet to be matched! Maybe it will be the 09 Maxima that puts a scare into it.
Curious to know if the Toyota dealers in your area are still inflating the price of the car with these infamous 'option packs' - down here in Texas and Gulf States Toyota, you still are looking at a min. $2000.00 or so on every car.

tjc78 · January 2008

"down here in Texas and Gulf States Toyota, you still are looking at a min. $2000.00 or so on every car"

Nothing like that here in south Jersey. My local dealer adds nothing unless you ask. When I was shopping there was one dealer that added a pin stripe and mud flaps for $450. I was quick to tell them I wouldn't pay that and they of course said they would "throw it in". I guess so, it couldn't cost more than $50.

"Maybe it will be the 09 Maxima that puts a scare into it."

Possibly, however I would think that Max will have a much more sporting flair than the Avalon will ever have. This will not appeal to all. I do know that it will be one of the first cars I look at when the Avalon goes off lease. I was reading somewhere that the Avalon will stay pretty much the same through 2011. If nothing else impresses me I will get another one in a minute!

allmet33 · January 2008

Bob...I think we have to give them a chance with the '08 model, I do believe the issues that have made themselves known with the '06 & '07 models are supposed to be taken care of with the '08, as well as...adding some technology that many feel was lacking.

Currently, there is no other Hyundai model on the market that has anything more than the Azera has in the way of technology. I mean...there is no current model available with in-dash nav. I know a lot of dealerships were offering an aftermarket unit in the Sonata, but of course...it was not a Hyundai offering. With the '08 Azera supposedly having in-dash nav available...that's one issue removed. If they have also addressed the suspension that so many seem to dog the Azera over, I think the critics will be hushed.

As far as the Genesis...I think for Hyundai to push a vehicle that can cost in the mid-upper $30K's...they have to pull out all the stops with technology. From my understanding, the Genesis will have in-dash nav w/bluetooth, adaptive cruise control and a host of other features not found in currenty Hyundai models.

In my opinion, Hyundai could have waited and bypassed the Azera and just brought the Genesis to market. With 3 different trim levels, starting in the mid-$20K's...it fits in the same niche as the Azera. It'll have more power, more refinement (maybe) and more offerings in the way of features. Don't get me wrong, I love my Azera, but the more I hear about the Genesis...it's making it hard for me to no consider trading up. I wonder how many other Azera owners feel the same way. :confuse:

allmet33 · January 2008

You know...after reading that comment, I made sure to pay attention on the road this weekend. I ran across a few older model Buicks and I honestly don't see the connection. Are you talking about the fact that you have the two tail lights bridged by the piece of plastic in the middle? If so...there were many cars that had some form of that at some point. To say it's Buicky...I just don't see it.

As far as the Sonata looking better than the Azera, you would be the first person I've ever heard say that. Coming from a Sonata, I was gung-ho about the '06 Sonata...until I saw the Azera. The only thing I can say is that I wish the Azera shared the taughtness of the Sonata suspension, other than that...hands down, the Azera was the better car for me. The one thing I did like about the Sonata was that when they re-designed it...the interior, while looking fresh and new, still had cues of Sonatas past.

allmet33 · January 2008

LOL The most domestic, foreign car on the market, huh?

allmet33 · January 2008

Yeah...currently, the Azera is made over in Korea. There was talk of having it manufactured here in the U.S., but I'm not sure how much outfitting would need to be done at their Albama plant to make that happen. Not unless Hyundai has another plant being constructed to handle U.S. production of the Azera and possibly the Genesis.

captain2 · January 2008

laugh, if you wish - and certainly a hard concept to grasp isn't it?. A lot of what Detroit produces comes out of Canada and/or Mexico and soon apparently China - where Buicks are big. Not everything yet, of course - but the 'US' brands are steadily moving out. Don't be surprised if this doesn't happen to the Azera as well - the weak dollar may make it too expensive for Hyundai to do anything else.

allmet33 · January 2008

I'm not lauging at the concept, but then again I am. It's funny how so many people put an emphasis on buying foreign to get a better product, but in actuality...it's no more foreign than the domestic brands.

I agree with you, I do believe that Hyundai will be producing the Azera, Genesis, Veracruz and Entourage here in the U.S. Considering they are larger vehicles, shipping costs would be greatly reduced. The smaller cars really aren't an issue as they can cram a whole bunch of those on ship and send 'em across the pond. You start filling a boat with the larger ones, you find you can't quite put as many of those as you can the Tiburons, Accents, Elantras and Tucsons on there.

captain2 · January 2008

Not unless Hyundai has another plant being constructed to handle U.S. production of the Azera and possibly the Genesis.
well if this was to be the case, Hyundai is going to have to sell a whole lot more of both vehicles to be able to justify the investment. Read somewhere that $700 or 800 million was spent down in Alabama but then again, they do sell a lot more Sonatas and Santa Fes, don't they? 3000 Azeras a month - not even a blip on the radar screen - heck even 8000 Avalons just barely a blip.

allmet33 · January 2008

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I'm thinking they might outfit the current plant to handle production of the Azera. Maybe???

thegraduate · January 2008

Are you talking about the fact that you have the two tail lights bridged by the piece of plastic in the middle? If so...there were many cars that had some form of that at some point. To say it's Buicky...I just don't see it.

No, that's not the only reason. The very rounded nature of the rear-end helps emphasize the Buick-y look to me. It's not a clone in any way, just has some reseblance.

And, as far as the Sonata being better looking than the Azera, I'm young, so its in the eye of the beholder. The Azera isn't a crisp and sharp looking as I'd like it to be. I don't drive a sports car (I drive a midsize 4-door), but while I wouldn't want to be seen in an Azera, I wouldn't mind being in a Sonata. The Azera looks like something my dad should be driving, not me (although the current Sonata's interior is a downer, glad its getting refreshed!).

captain2 · January 2008

Actually allmet, unless you have some overwhelming desire to buy 'American' - some of us do - don't believe it would do the Azera any good to be built in Ala. , take it from somebody who's been there - don't underestimate the work ethic (and other abilities) that comes along with some of those Korean folks.

captain2 · January 2008

I do believe the issues that have made themselves known with the '06 & '07 models are supposed to be taken care of
this is the way it should be - all cars should improve with age. The well rated Lucerne V8 is probably as good as it is because it has had years of development as a Caddy DTS. The Avalon, started in 05 with some 'teething pains' and an 'average' rating - and has since improved. For some reason, the Azera is the one that has gotten 'worse' with age - something that makes no sense. While Hyundai should address any problems that crop up in the 06 and 07s, it really is unusual for the 06s to be so well rated but the current model to be a coupla levels worse.

allmet33 · January 2008

Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...maybe if you close one eye, squint real hard with the other and look through a frosted lens! LOL

Young??? What makes you think I'm old? LOL At 37, I hardly qualify for the median age of most Azera owners that grace this forum. As far as the look of the Sonata...granted, that's a subjective thing, but in all honesty...it fits that boxy Honda Accord look (which I didn't like). My favorite Sonata body was the '02-'05. Too bad they couldn't have upgraded the 2.7 V-6 and put the 3.3 in that body. The Azera, while bigger than the Sonata, is juch sleeker and has lines that flow from front to back (or back to front) depdending on how you look at it. I guess I'm just one for more natural looking lines, not that hard, straight edge techno-look..

In comparison between the Sonata and the Azera...the Azera has sex appeal with it's curves. Before anyone gets up in arms about this statement...this is merely MY opinion

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