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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are right, a car purchase is a hefty investment. In terms of overall value, factoring in every aspect...it can be definable as to which car is the best car. However, each individual is different in their needs and situation. There is no "perfect" car in any way for anyone. However, there is a perfect car for a person and their given situation.

    You have some that maybe can afford an Avalon, but the payments may make their budget tight. So what do they do, look at maybe an Azera, Taurus, Lucerne and see if they can get something comparable in terms of offerings for less money. There are still some that even though they are blue-collar...want the best they can find in class and don't mind spending the extra money to get the Avalon...if it is what suits their needs or wants. Someone could be able to afford an Avalon, but end up with a Max because it suits their personal situation.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    damn - where's the end of the line? ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Grad,

    It certainly seems like a good move for 20K OTD. The Taurus is a good car and the engine is powerful and reasonably efficient. The huge trunk is a bonus too.

    As for your price quote on the Lucerne, without the actual MSRP its hard to tell exactly, but I still think you could be OTD around 23,500 with 7% tax and doc fees. In this case. though, I would probably grab the Taurus.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    I got the last one!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    too little too late - story of my life
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    their manner of advertising facts
    an oxymoron - 'advertising facts' kinda like 'honest politicians'
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Manner??? They simply stated that the Sonata has more hp than a 528 and that the Azera has more interior space than a 750. How is that 'honest politics'?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >the extremely high number of replies and the praises

    I believe the people posting here have been around for a while and actually are fans of the car they praise. But it's interesting to read your comment because someone did come in and get the Toyota Engine Sludge discussion closed on Edmunds and had tried to do same on several other sites around the internet. I had suspected a coordinated group with a purpose in what I found when searching.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If anything, the seemingly better build quality of the Taurus and the much better powertrain make it worth at least as much as the Buick to me, probably more. Exterior styling isn't a huge concern for my mom (it would be her car). Her last vehicle was a 2000 Odyssey.

    You mention reasonably efficient - I'd say it's quite good (18/28) considering its heft and horsepower. It's near the top of the class in fuel economy, isn't it? The Avalon is the only vehicle I can think of that comes close to delivering the power AND the fuel economy.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    get the Toyota Engine Sludge discussion closed on Edmunds and had tried to do same on several other sites around the internet
    ahh a suspicious mind - just like my own. :D You don't think maybe, just maybe, these discussions stopped because Toyota has stopped making the engine involved a long time ago and it is certainly old (ancient) news.? You think GM is out sabotaging sites that want to talk about plastic intake manifolds on crappy V6 engines, Ford is out there doing its best to avoid the whole issue of speed controls OR Honda is out there doing the same about some transmission discussions etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Nobody's hands are really clean - and nor should we anticipate that they are - frequency of problems should be the issue - NOT that they occur - because they will. .
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    grad-
    you might want to pick up last months CR, they do a review and test of the Taurus and comment that overall FE was 'only' 18mpg. They got 22 out of the Avalon for example, and 19 out of the Azera. They do like the additional power, space and safety features without peer. Based on an 'average' reported reliability, they do recommend it - if things like that mean anything to you. Don't believe you would touch even an Avalon XL for under about $25k because you will find it difficult to find one without some gingerbread.
  • don90don90 Member Posts: 14
    allmet33 if you find out how to get a Gensis out of Hynudai let me know!!! They can have my 2007 Avalon LTD with it's rain sensing windshield wipers that I have been trying to get fixed for the last ten months.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'll take your Avalon sight unseen and will get the wipers fixed ASAP.
  • don90don90 Member Posts: 14
    I have the same problem that every Avalon LTD 2005-2008 has with the rain sensing wipers and that is at random when you push the start button and as the engine starts the wipers make one swipe across a DRY windshield. Toyota says that is normal and there fix is to place the wipers switch in the off position before starting the car ,then after it starts put the wiper switch back in the auto position. Which sort of defeats the whole reason to have RAIN SENSING WIPERS. I had RAIN SENSING WIPERS on my 2003 Avalon XLS and in the four years I had it the wipers never had this problem and I kept the wiper switch in the AUTO position for the whole four years.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Let's close out some of the recent discussions:

    The Hyundai ads from MONTHS AGO, with the comparisons vs. LR3, LS, 528i, are meant to be tongue-in-cheek. We talked about this, if you are going to take it seriously, then all power to you. FWIW, all said in the ads are FACTS.

    The Azera is MUCH shorter than the Avalon on the outside, but both manage 107 cu. ft of interior volume. Hyundai also ups Avalon on the trunk volume. Truth to be told, Hyundai has been making much use of its interior, further reason why most of its car line is one level up of its regular class in size - no other makers can make such claim.

    The other, which I've been sitting on since earlier this week, Consumer Reports annual results, Hyundai stood out and received glowing reviews, including 2 top 10, for the first time ever. The Azera and Avalon was the only two cars here to make it to the most comfortable cars list. The Azera continues to do well in satisfaction, since initial introduction; CR is just the latest of many sources to give Azera the highest satisfaction in the class - "most customer satisfied" in CR's list. Oh, also, the Azera was one the five cars listed as most overlooked...

    PS: I can't figure out why Edmunds and every other trusted source are calling the Genesis a LUXURY sedan. Could it be, because it is a luxury RWD performance sedan? ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I was responding to don90. Your comments aren't relevant to what I was talking about.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Don,

    Not that it is right, but, the rain sensing wiper problem isn't limited to Toyota. A friend's Grand Cherokee does the exact same thing you describe. Guess what? Same answer you got too. Probably use the same manufacturer for the sensor.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    I was thinking of the same article Captain was. However, for the size of car and power, the economy isn't bad but still lagging a bit behind.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Which sort of defeats the whole reason to have RAIN SENSING WIPERS. I had RAIN SENSING WIPERS

    Until you reminded me, I forgot did that on my BMW with rain sensing wipers as a matter of course. Always turned off the wipers when I stopped the car. Sort of like remembering to make sure the car is going 0 mph, before shoving the tranny in park.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    PS: I can't figure out why Edmunds and every other trusted source are calling the Genesis a LUXURY sedan. Could it be, because it is a luxury RWD performance sedan? ;)

    There are those who think lxury is more than the sum of the doo-dads. The Genesis will never be a luxury vehicle, IMO. If all that differentiates the Genesis from an Accord is rain-sensing wipers (sic) and a few speakers so what? :)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "I can't figure out why Edmunds and every other trusted source are calling the Genesis a LUXURY sedan. Could it be, because it is a luxury RWD performance sedan?"

    Not to start a big discussion on what luxury is..... but, isn't it all relative. I mean to the person driving a base model Sonata the Genesis will certainly be luxiourious, however, to the person who is driving a GS, M, E, 5er.. its just another large car with a lot of power. Don't get me wrong, I think the Genesis will be great, but, take it for what it most likely will be.... a solid RWD sedan with some luxury touches at an attainable price.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The automatic rain-sensing wipers on my full-sized GM car don't swipe on starting the motor. They don't swipe when taking the foot off the brake. I leave them on all the time. You don't know they're there until enough moisture collects on the windshield in front of the sensor to evoke a swipe. I assume the Lucerne and DTS use the same system.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • maximafanmaximafan Member Posts: 592
    Ditto here on the Lexus RX350. I just set them on "auto" and forget it. I love the rain-sensing wipers!
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    If all that differentiates the Genesis from an Accord is rain-sensing wipers (sic) and a few speakers so what?

    Obviously, not true...unless the Accord now comes with a V8, RWD, etc.

    How about people actually wait to evaluate the Genesis before reaching for a conclusion? ;)
  • keitha3keitha3 Member Posts: 124
    I just love the Genesis!!!

    It has the same sound system as the Rolls.

    And, twice as many doors as a Ferrari.

    And, the same amount of tires as a Bentley.

    Don't forget, more interior space AND trunk room than a 911S.

    Think the Audi A8 had more glove compartments...err NO.

    Cupholders...Mercedes SL step aside.

    If you're listening Hyundai, I'm the man to give the free Genesis to for posting positive comments.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It has the same sound system as the Rolls.

    And a BMW.

    And, twice as many doors as a Ferrari.

    But less than a mini-van.:)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I guess the new Pontiac G8 can also be classified as a luxury car.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    There are those who think lxury is more than the sum of the doo-dads. The Genesis will never be a luxury vehicle, IMO. If all that differentiates the Genesis from an Accord is rain-sensing wipers (sic) and a few speakers so what?

    Then you should tell the press to stop calling it as a luxury vehicle. Obviously you've concluded there is no way, since it doesn't have a luxury brand attach to it.

    Somehow I would like to think the people in the industry would have more credibility.

    I wasn't talking about what some people might percept, heck, some people still don't think certain luxury brand models are considered luxury, does it somehow mean those cars are not luxury? Just because someone thinks otherwise...
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I guess the new Pontiac G8 can also be classified as a luxury car.

    Except there is nothing luxury about it, at least the de-contented NA spec.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And a BMW.

    And which BMW has the same sound system as the Genesis?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Maybe to some people, but those having driven the Genesis and other cars you've mentioned, they didn't think the Genesis was a downgrade.

    Of course, if one's to focus on the badge itself, and less on the substance, then sure, the Genesis would be just another car made by a some non-luxury car company, and some people might be embrassed to drive it because what other people might think of the car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Then you should tell the press to stop calling it as a luxury vehicle

    I don't have to tell the press anything. I vote with my dollars, which is the most important vote.

    Obviously you've concluded there is no way, since it doesn't have a luxury brand attach to it

    Yes. Without the luxury brand, it's a bunch of doo-dads.

    Somehow I would like to think the people in the industry would have more credibility.

    Undoubtedly they have more credibility than me, but I still have final say with my dollars.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    "The Genesis will never be a luxury vehicle, IMO. If all that differentiates the Genesis from an Accord is rain-sensing wipers (sic) and a few speakers so what?"

    If that were all, you'd have a point. But as keitha3 pointed out, that's very far from being the case. Even the most minimal index-finger effort on your part would have instantly shown you that the Genesis is different in basic layout from the Accord or any previous Hyundai, with RWD, an all-new V8 with all the latest technologies at its core, and the same basic suspension configuration at all four wheels as your BMW.

    In addition, having personally inspected the car at an auto show, I can tell you that the interior goes far beyond having "a few luxury touches." It's a premium interior in every regard, swathed in real wood, with hand-stitched leather adorning the dash, and bristling with every imaginable convenience as standard equipment, all beautifully executed in top-quality materials. Compared to the Genesis, the spartan and plastic-lined Pontiac G8 might as well be a Mustang GT.

    You say "without the luxury brand, it's a bunch of doo-dads." The clear implication: if it had the luxury brand, a bunch of doo-dads would be enough for you. Enjoy your BMW's monthly payment. I "vote with my dollars," too -- except the decision is made by MY brain, not one I just borrowed from the Joneses.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Nah...no way. Been thinking when my '07 Azera lease expires I'll just step up to Genesis. Then, the April Motor Trend arrives in the mail with an informative article and test of something called the G8-GT compared to a Dodge hemi RT.

    Required reading for anyone with a "mainstream" full size sedan.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You say "without the luxury brand, it's a bunch of doo-dads." The clear implication: if it had the luxury brand, a bunch of doo-dads would be enough for you. Enjoy your BMW's monthly payment. I "vote with my dollars," too -- except the decision is made by MY brain, not one I just borrowed from the Joneses.

    It is true some people borrow brains, but nobody on this forum does? Right? We are capable of independent thought and opinions. :) You have to be comfortable with your purchase as I am with mine. I hope your luxury car, with your luxury dealership and your luxury resale works out for you as good as mine. My implication is that any manufacturer can slap leather seats on their car and call it luxury, ala Phaenton.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    No one is telling you how to spend your $$$; you are free to, of course, choose whatever you'd like. That said, your whole argument is circled around what you think.

    Let's look at this from another angle (a completely opposite angle). If I were to say certain models under certain luxury brands aren't so luxury, which I thought was the case after driving them. Does that make those models classified as non-luxury? Of course not. Just what I think, right?

    The fact the Genesis is classified as a luxury sedan, despite not bearing a luxury brand - not just my words, not just some others here, but the industry's.

    Whether it is truly luxury or not, from your perspective, or mine is hard to tell at this point. Of course, you've dismissed the idea already, I see :sick:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    IF...that were to happen, I would certainly post it here! LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    At the risk of insulting some American brand supporters - even the most ardent Hyundai 'guy' should agree that the name 'Hyundai' is about on the same level as Ford/Chevy/Dodge/Pontiac etc. AT BEST - a manufacturer of vehicles for the 'masses' - allmet's blue collar autobuyers if you will. Therefore if it is conceivable to any of you that Chevy or Ford could sell a car that could also be perceived as a 'luxury' car, then certainly so can Hyundai. Taking it one step further, are Toyota/Honda/Nissan capable of producing a 'luxury' car - well yes it turns out that they are - with one important caveat - those cars are branded differently AND the price structure for said vehicle is substantially higher. The Infiniti G/M are 'luxury' cars but the Altima/Maxima are not. An Avalon Limited is available with almost everything you can find on a $70k Lexus LS but one car is a luxury car and the other is not. Same is true on a lower level with the Acura TL vs. the Honda Accord. Acura makes luxury cars but Honda does not. Cadillac can make a luxury car called the DTS for over $50k, and Buick can sell an 'equal' called a Lucerne CXS for about 10 grand less yet the perception is that Caddy makes 'luxury' cars but Buick does not. Just like the Lexus ES and the very similar Camry XLE. And yes, it is probably true that those folks that spend that 10 grand, are largely buying a 'badge' - and they know it.
    The Genesis will be accepted as a 'luxury' car as soon as the manufacturer calls it something other than a Hyundai and increases the price. All this has absolutely nothing to do with what 'options' the car might (or might not) be available with or even FTM the true qualities of the car involved - its all about what the autobuyer perceives the brand to be. Hyundai may be many many things BUT a manufacturer of a 'luxury' automobile is NOT one of them. The best thing that Hyundai can do for itself at this point is to invest those marketing dollars in ads that disassociate the Genesis from who actually makes it.
    .
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    To a degree...you are right, however...it seems that Hyundai is bucking trends by being the first manufacturer to offer a luxury vehicle without having to put it under another name. We, as consumers, have been brainwashed to believe that this is how it must be (and obviously it's worked). The industry says it, so it must be??? Along comes a company that wants to show and prove, that it can offer econo-cars AND luxury cars under the same name and it's causing a huge rift with some. LOL I think it's funny. I guess Hyundai is thinking...instead of spending the money in creating another brand, spend it on things like R&D, advertising and putting out a quality product, and while doing so...prove the nay-sayers wrong! ;)

    See...one point you bring up...you have folks that pay the extra $10K for the Lexus ES vs. a Camry XLE knowing that they are mainly paying for the brand name. Hyundai isn't for those that worry about brand name. Hyundai is for those that wish to have a good product they can feel good about, make their bank account happy and thumb their noses at those that shake their heads at them for their choice.

    You can only keep Lexus separated from Toyota but so much, because when it comes down to talk of Lexus reliability, the first thing that's said is, "Well...it IS made by Toyota."
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai isn't for those that worry about brand name.
    that's for sure.
    As far as Lexus and Toyota go, I believe that most buyers of a Lexus expect MORE not only out of their car but also out of their dealer than they would as a 'mere' Toyota' buyer. To put it more simply they think 'Lexus' means something better - and generally, they are right!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "it seems that Hyundai is bucking trends by being the first manufacturer to offer a luxury vehicle without having to put it under another name"

    Remember the Mazda Millennia?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "The best thing that Hyundai can do for itself at this point is to invest those marketing dollars in ads that disassociate the Genesis from who actually makes it"

    IIRC the Aurora had no badge on it that said Oldsmobile. I wonder if Hyundai is going that route.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    good example - the Millenia was originally conceived to be Mazda/Ford's foray into the 'luxury' car market, a competitor for Lexus and Infiniti - they too didn't want to establish a 'new' brand (or dealers). Mazda's 'rep' was not all that bad at the time (and probably still isn't) and the Millenia really a pretty fine effort at what should have been at least an 'entry level' luxury sedan - BUT it was obviously never thought of in that way. Eventually, of course, we all lost a relatively good car. Hyundai is certainly ignoring a lot of history with the Genesis.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Remember the Mazda Millennia?

    How about Mitsubishi Diamante and VW Phaeton?

    There is certainly a possibility that Hyundai can proof me wrong with the Genesis but until that happened, the history is on my side (with AT LEAST 3 cases).

    There are two famous sayings:

    (1) History repeats itself
    (2) Learn from history

    I guess Hyundai has decided that the best strategy going forward is to not believe in (1) and going against (2). Bold moves indeed...
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    You guys make it sound like creating a luxury brand is as easy as boil an egg :)

    And also, it seems by reading some of the posts have us somehow convinced the success rate of a luxury brand will be guaranteed than that of the Hyundai brand, with no brand equity to start off, mind you. Look how far that has taken Acura - its only true luxury car model at present day, the RL, some success there, huh?

    FWIW, Hyundai has a luxury brand setup in its home market (and China I think) for the car (and it's called the Genesis). It has hesitated to do so it the US probably because of the huge investment and risks. They certainly don't feel like there is enough chips (number of models) on the table for the luxury brand.

    I don't know about you guys, but if it's the same car, I'd rather get the one without the emblem for thousands of dollars less ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    An Avalon Limited is available with almost everything you can find on a $70k Lexus LS but one car is a luxury car and the other is not.

    What's your standard on almost everything? I will give you Lexus ES but Avalon Limited is available with almost everything you can find on the LS? Come on, I am sure you'd have more respect for the LS, I know I do :)

    Per my post yesterday - Lexus ES is one of the cars I don't find it very luxury, and compared to the large sedans here such as the Avalon/Azera Ltd.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    First of all...the Phaeton is a luxury sedan, the problem VW had was they priced it to a point that nobody really wanted to pay that kind of coin for a V-Dub. I mean...you go from a Passat for under $40K, then you jump all the way over $60K for a Phaeton! If the Phaeton started out around $40K...they may have had something.

    The Diamante...Mitsubishi had too many problems on their hands trying to go upscale. Had they gotten everything else right and THEN brought the Diamante out...they could have had something there as well.

    There's a saying you left out and that's one that negates 1 & 2...make history! Which it looks like that's what Hyundai is setting out to do.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I am sure you'd have more respect for the LS, I know I do
    of course I do - the point really was that an options list does not a luxury car make.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "The Diamante...Mitsubishi had too many problems on their hands trying to go upscale"

    Wait a sec here.... isn't Hyundai suffering from the same thing? They have a shady past and are just beginning to turn into a company known for good products. I just don't know any other way of saying it.... but, the Genesis will suffer for no other reason than being a Hyundai. I continue to think it will be a great vehicle as is most of Hyundai's lineup. Will it "make history" yes possibly the same as the Millennia, Diamante, Phaeton and even cars like the Lincoln LS. All good cars in their own right, hampered by their brand name for one reason or another.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Let's not forget that the Phaeton is a 7/S/LS/A8 beater, I don't think $60k (3/4 of the competitors) for a high end luxury car is too shabby at all. Isn't that pretty much the same idea as pricing a 5/GS/E fighter Genesis at $35k (also around 3/4 of the competitor's prices)?

    Sure there is a chance that Hyundai could make history with the Genesis but I personally am not to optimistic since this idea isn't so original as others have made it sound and there are many failure examples right in front of us.
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