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You have some that maybe can afford an Avalon, but the payments may make their budget tight. So what do they do, look at maybe an Azera, Taurus, Lucerne and see if they can get something comparable in terms of offerings for less money. There are still some that even though they are blue-collar...want the best they can find in class and don't mind spending the extra money to get the Avalon...if it is what suits their needs or wants. Someone could be able to afford an Avalon, but end up with a Max because it suits their personal situation.
It certainly seems like a good move for 20K OTD. The Taurus is a good car and the engine is powerful and reasonably efficient. The huge trunk is a bonus too.
As for your price quote on the Lucerne, without the actual MSRP its hard to tell exactly, but I still think you could be OTD around 23,500 with 7% tax and doc fees. In this case. though, I would probably grab the Taurus.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
an oxymoron - 'advertising facts' kinda like 'honest politicians'
I believe the people posting here have been around for a while and actually are fans of the car they praise. But it's interesting to read your comment because someone did come in and get the Toyota Engine Sludge discussion closed on Edmunds and had tried to do same on several other sites around the internet. I had suspected a coordinated group with a purpose in what I found when searching.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You mention reasonably efficient - I'd say it's quite good (18/28) considering its heft and horsepower. It's near the top of the class in fuel economy, isn't it? The Avalon is the only vehicle I can think of that comes close to delivering the power AND the fuel economy.
ahh a suspicious mind - just like my own. You don't think maybe, just maybe, these discussions stopped because Toyota has stopped making the engine involved a long time ago and it is certainly old (ancient) news.? You think GM is out sabotaging sites that want to talk about plastic intake manifolds on crappy V6 engines, Ford is out there doing its best to avoid the whole issue of speed controls OR Honda is out there doing the same about some transmission discussions etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Nobody's hands are really clean - and nor should we anticipate that they are - frequency of problems should be the issue - NOT that they occur - because they will. .
you might want to pick up last months CR, they do a review and test of the Taurus and comment that overall FE was 'only' 18mpg. They got 22 out of the Avalon for example, and 19 out of the Azera. They do like the additional power, space and safety features without peer. Based on an 'average' reported reliability, they do recommend it - if things like that mean anything to you. Don't believe you would touch even an Avalon XL for under about $25k because you will find it difficult to find one without some gingerbread.
The Hyundai ads from MONTHS AGO, with the comparisons vs. LR3, LS, 528i, are meant to be tongue-in-cheek. We talked about this, if you are going to take it seriously, then all power to you. FWIW, all said in the ads are FACTS.
The Azera is MUCH shorter than the Avalon on the outside, but both manage 107 cu. ft of interior volume. Hyundai also ups Avalon on the trunk volume. Truth to be told, Hyundai has been making much use of its interior, further reason why most of its car line is one level up of its regular class in size - no other makers can make such claim.
The other, which I've been sitting on since earlier this week, Consumer Reports annual results, Hyundai stood out and received glowing reviews, including 2 top 10, for the first time ever. The Azera and Avalon was the only two cars here to make it to the most comfortable cars list. The Azera continues to do well in satisfaction, since initial introduction; CR is just the latest of many sources to give Azera the highest satisfaction in the class - "most customer satisfied" in CR's list. Oh, also, the Azera was one the five cars listed as most overlooked...
PS: I can't figure out why Edmunds and every other trusted source are calling the Genesis a LUXURY sedan. Could it be, because it is a luxury RWD performance sedan?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not that it is right, but, the rain sensing wiper problem isn't limited to Toyota. A friend's Grand Cherokee does the exact same thing you describe. Guess what? Same answer you got too. Probably use the same manufacturer for the sensor.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Until you reminded me, I forgot did that on my BMW with rain sensing wipers as a matter of course. Always turned off the wipers when I stopped the car. Sort of like remembering to make sure the car is going 0 mph, before shoving the tranny in park.
There are those who think lxury is more than the sum of the doo-dads. The Genesis will never be a luxury vehicle, IMO. If all that differentiates the Genesis from an Accord is rain-sensing wipers (sic) and a few speakers so what?
Not to start a big discussion on what luxury is..... but, isn't it all relative. I mean to the person driving a base model Sonata the Genesis will certainly be luxiourious, however, to the person who is driving a GS, M, E, 5er.. its just another large car with a lot of power. Don't get me wrong, I think the Genesis will be great, but, take it for what it most likely will be.... a solid RWD sedan with some luxury touches at an attainable price.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Obviously, not true...unless the Accord now comes with a V8, RWD, etc.
How about people actually wait to evaluate the Genesis before reaching for a conclusion?
It has the same sound system as the Rolls.
And, twice as many doors as a Ferrari.
And, the same amount of tires as a Bentley.
Don't forget, more interior space AND trunk room than a 911S.
Think the Audi A8 had more glove compartments...err NO.
Cupholders...Mercedes SL step aside.
If you're listening Hyundai, I'm the man to give the free Genesis to for posting positive comments.
And a BMW.
And, twice as many doors as a Ferrari.
But less than a mini-van.:)
Then you should tell the press to stop calling it as a luxury vehicle. Obviously you've concluded there is no way, since it doesn't have a luxury brand attach to it.
Somehow I would like to think the people in the industry would have more credibility.
I wasn't talking about what some people might percept, heck, some people still don't think certain luxury brand models are considered luxury, does it somehow mean those cars are not luxury? Just because someone thinks otherwise...
Except there is nothing luxury about it, at least the de-contented NA spec.
And which BMW has the same sound system as the Genesis?
Of course, if one's to focus on the badge itself, and less on the substance, then sure, the Genesis would be just another car made by a some non-luxury car company, and some people might be embrassed to drive it because what other people might think of the car.
I don't have to tell the press anything. I vote with my dollars, which is the most important vote.
Obviously you've concluded there is no way, since it doesn't have a luxury brand attach to it
Yes. Without the luxury brand, it's a bunch of doo-dads.
Somehow I would like to think the people in the industry would have more credibility.
Undoubtedly they have more credibility than me, but I still have final say with my dollars.
If that were all, you'd have a point. But as keitha3 pointed out, that's very far from being the case. Even the most minimal index-finger effort on your part would have instantly shown you that the Genesis is different in basic layout from the Accord or any previous Hyundai, with RWD, an all-new V8 with all the latest technologies at its core, and the same basic suspension configuration at all four wheels as your BMW.
In addition, having personally inspected the car at an auto show, I can tell you that the interior goes far beyond having "a few luxury touches." It's a premium interior in every regard, swathed in real wood, with hand-stitched leather adorning the dash, and bristling with every imaginable convenience as standard equipment, all beautifully executed in top-quality materials. Compared to the Genesis, the spartan and plastic-lined Pontiac G8 might as well be a Mustang GT.
You say "without the luxury brand, it's a bunch of doo-dads." The clear implication: if it had the luxury brand, a bunch of doo-dads would be enough for you. Enjoy your BMW's monthly payment. I "vote with my dollars," too -- except the decision is made by MY brain, not one I just borrowed from the Joneses.
Required reading for anyone with a "mainstream" full size sedan.
It is true some people borrow brains, but nobody on this forum does? Right? We are capable of independent thought and opinions. You have to be comfortable with your purchase as I am with mine. I hope your luxury car, with your luxury dealership and your luxury resale works out for you as good as mine. My implication is that any manufacturer can slap leather seats on their car and call it luxury, ala Phaenton.
Let's look at this from another angle (a completely opposite angle). If I were to say certain models under certain luxury brands aren't so luxury, which I thought was the case after driving them. Does that make those models classified as non-luxury? Of course not. Just what I think, right?
The fact the Genesis is classified as a luxury sedan, despite not bearing a luxury brand - not just my words, not just some others here, but the industry's.
Whether it is truly luxury or not, from your perspective, or mine is hard to tell at this point. Of course, you've dismissed the idea already, I see :sick:
The Genesis will be accepted as a 'luxury' car as soon as the manufacturer calls it something other than a Hyundai and increases the price. All this has absolutely nothing to do with what 'options' the car might (or might not) be available with or even FTM the true qualities of the car involved - its all about what the autobuyer perceives the brand to be. Hyundai may be many many things BUT a manufacturer of a 'luxury' automobile is NOT one of them. The best thing that Hyundai can do for itself at this point is to invest those marketing dollars in ads that disassociate the Genesis from who actually makes it.
.
See...one point you bring up...you have folks that pay the extra $10K for the Lexus ES vs. a Camry XLE knowing that they are mainly paying for the brand name. Hyundai isn't for those that worry about brand name. Hyundai is for those that wish to have a good product they can feel good about, make their bank account happy and thumb their noses at those that shake their heads at them for their choice.
You can only keep Lexus separated from Toyota but so much, because when it comes down to talk of Lexus reliability, the first thing that's said is, "Well...it IS made by Toyota."
that's for sure.
As far as Lexus and Toyota go, I believe that most buyers of a Lexus expect MORE not only out of their car but also out of their dealer than they would as a 'mere' Toyota' buyer. To put it more simply they think 'Lexus' means something better - and generally, they are right!
Remember the Mazda Millennia?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
IIRC the Aurora had no badge on it that said Oldsmobile. I wonder if Hyundai is going that route.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
How about Mitsubishi Diamante and VW Phaeton?
There is certainly a possibility that Hyundai can proof me wrong with the Genesis but until that happened, the history is on my side (with AT LEAST 3 cases).
There are two famous sayings:
(1) History repeats itself
(2) Learn from history
I guess Hyundai has decided that the best strategy going forward is to not believe in (1) and going against (2). Bold moves indeed...
And also, it seems by reading some of the posts have us somehow convinced the success rate of a luxury brand will be guaranteed than that of the Hyundai brand, with no brand equity to start off, mind you. Look how far that has taken Acura - its only true luxury car model at present day, the RL, some success there, huh?
FWIW, Hyundai has a luxury brand setup in its home market (and China I think) for the car (and it's called the Genesis). It has hesitated to do so it the US probably because of the huge investment and risks. They certainly don't feel like there is enough chips (number of models) on the table for the luxury brand.
I don't know about you guys, but if it's the same car, I'd rather get the one without the emblem for thousands of dollars less
What's your standard on almost everything? I will give you Lexus ES but Avalon Limited is available with almost everything you can find on the LS? Come on, I am sure you'd have more respect for the LS, I know I do
Per my post yesterday - Lexus ES is one of the cars I don't find it very luxury, and compared to the large sedans here such as the Avalon/Azera Ltd.
The Diamante...Mitsubishi had too many problems on their hands trying to go upscale. Had they gotten everything else right and THEN brought the Diamante out...they could have had something there as well.
There's a saying you left out and that's one that negates 1 & 2...make history! Which it looks like that's what Hyundai is setting out to do.
of course I do - the point really was that an options list does not a luxury car make.
Wait a sec here.... isn't Hyundai suffering from the same thing? They have a shady past and are just beginning to turn into a company known for good products. I just don't know any other way of saying it.... but, the Genesis will suffer for no other reason than being a Hyundai. I continue to think it will be a great vehicle as is most of Hyundai's lineup. Will it "make history" yes possibly the same as the Millennia, Diamante, Phaeton and even cars like the Lincoln LS. All good cars in their own right, hampered by their brand name for one reason or another.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Sure there is a chance that Hyundai could make history with the Genesis but I personally am not to optimistic since this idea isn't so original as others have made it sound and there are many failure examples right in front of us.