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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes...they do, and Hyundai does the same with the Azera and allows the Sonata and Azera to share it's 3.3. However, with the upcoming Genesis on tap...the Azera's flagship status is questionable, but it has nothing to do with the Sonata...at this point.

    Okay...minor details do separate them, however...it's the major ones that stand out and buyers see the most. Simply put...do you really want to buy a flagship sedan that doesn't separate itself enough to truly be a flagship sedan when you can get the next model down, get everything the flagship model offers AND get more power to boot? Unless you're just a Max fan...most folks won't, especially those hung up on the whole HP issue.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    if you read my forum posts u can see I am actually Avy fan and still consider Avalon best vehicle on this forum. you mentioned some minor details that separate Azera and sonata. There are many more of these minor details that separate Max and Altima. I have a friend with Altima and while I like her car there more lux touches in Max than Altima. For example power folding mirrors minor detail but my friend already replaced her non folding mirrors 2 times. now in re to less power. MY max with 5 speed beats her v6 cvt even when she was behind wheel of my car and she was in mine.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    AND get more power to boot?
    with $4 gas rapidly heading our way, it won't be too long before 'assets' like this are considered 'liabilities' - the reason why I don't see these 4000 lb. 350hp large sedans succeeding
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LONG LIVE THE SUB COMPACT SEGMENT!!! :D
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    yes...there are minor details that separate the Azera from the Sonata, but the biggest one is the fact that the Azera has 263 hp and the Sonata will only give you 234 hp. So...minor differences not available on the Sonata and 29 more ponies...advantage Azera.

    While there is nothing luxury in the Maxima, okay...folding mirrors (not exactly luxury) anyway...do the amount of so called 'touches' outweigh the fact that in the grand scheme of things...the Altima provides one with most everything the Maxima offers.

    Even if you go by the numbers...when it comes to interior space...there's only a couple of inches different in the categories, the Altima more in some and the Max more in others...almost a draw. Luggage capacity...Altima 15.3 / Max 15.5. Where's the advantage of the Maxima at this point?

    Wait a minute, before we indulge this part of the post...what year is your Max again? Because if you go even stevens...and compare an '08 Altima against an '08 Max...the Altima has 15 more hp, 6 more lbs of torque and it weighs 156 lbs less than the Maxima. You're trying to convince me that the Maxima will keep up with the Altima??? :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    29 more ponies...advantage Azera
    really think so? if the Sonata V6 comes in at 20/29 (as it should) then that 3 mpg FE advantage is significant.
    The new 249hp Sonata 3.3 is plenty quick (may even be quicker than the Azera) and at $4/gallon for gas it may represent a better deal to the consumer even if the price of the car starts to bump into Azera territory. FE will sell a long time before a few silly HP - and power folding mirrors..
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    With gas prices surging...sure, FE would be the advantage the Sonata has, but a 3 mpg difference won't sway folks that heavily. Also, if you venture over to the Real World FE forum, you'll see Azera owners getting 28 mpg with their Azera's on the highway...so is the advantage THAT big?
  • chrisa222chrisa222 Member Posts: 17
    The Altima HAS been around since the 80s...except it was called the Stanza..in between the Sentra and Max. How could you guys forget this one? The 2nd generation car was pretty cool back then cause it had the same engine as the 240SX, I think 140HP or so? That was big time back then.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If those same owners were to drive a Sonata, I'd bet the advantage would be similar. If a driver gets EPA estimates + 3 in car number 1, its logical that they would get similar results in car number 2, based on the fact that they drive in a fuel-efficient manner.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    but a 3 mpg difference won't sway folks that heavily
    you (and maybe even me) are swayed by HP, BUT in these types of practical cars sold to practical people,they just don't care about HP - what they do care about is sending their life's savings to mother Exxon. It will not likely occur to them that the 3mpg difference amounts to $30 or $40 a 1500 mile month, that difference will still be viewed as substantial regardless of what it is.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yep, forgot about the Stanza - and this from somebody that owned and autocrossed - a 510 - more years ago than I would care to admit.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Sorry...the Altima replaced the Stanza. That's like saying the Max existed prior to '83 as the 510. The Stanza was the mini-Max back in the day though.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    mainstream large sedans
    mainstream large sedans,

    Let's all say it together

    mainstream large sedans

    I promise you guys that we have discussions all over the place that fit what you want to talk about and if this is not the right one, I'll be glad to help you find what is.

    mainstream large sedans
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    Also it would be nice if we could go 24 hours without mentioning Azera or Avalon. :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Why? Those are actually ON TOPIC!
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    Yes I know, but they have been monoplizing the discussion for the past several thousand posts!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The best way to guide the discussion is to create your own new topic within the thread. By all means please do!
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    you are comparing CVT to Auto and in most mags still 04 maxima beats 08 Altima. Unfortunately when I showed my wife Sonata and Azera in H dealership she could not find any differences in driving, interior or even exterior to justify extra $ for Azera.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    "Also it would be nice if we could go 24 hours without mentioning Azera or Avalon"

    Why? They are the top of the class and what the rest are judged on. It also doesn't hurt that the biggest contributors to this forum happen to be Av or Az owners.

    I am free to discuss any car listed here. I have driven them all in one form or another (some at length) so ask away.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Not sure what she looks for in driving, but there is a difference in driving characteristics between the Azera and the Sonata. My next question would be...which trim level Sonata did you look at and which trim level Azera was compared to it?

    Certainly, it would make no sense at all to compare the Sonata Limited to an Azera GLS. If that were the case, I would take the Sonata over the Azera. However, comparing the Sonata Limited V-6 to the Azera Limited...I would take the Azera.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The other cars get mentioned here and there, but since there aren't any owners of those cars frequenting the forum...the disussion doesn't last long.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I don't remember unfortunately
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Now you know you were supposed to be paying attention. You know a statement like that was going to bring questions.

    Do yourself a favor and go back and try both cars in their top trim level, decked out and let me know if there really isn't any difference between the two. ;)
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    there is no need for me to do it. We already found our 2nd ride.
  • robtroxelrobtroxel Member Posts: 103
    One thing about the Avalon is that they have great outside mirrors, since they stick out big time. the bad news is that they do not fold, even manually. This is a serious omission when you consider every other car in this category. has this >including the cheaper Accord. It cost me 500 bucks to fix damage done to a mirrior. The Camry has the same issue. They seem to think you need to upgrade to the Lexus to have this sensible feature. I'll downgrade to the Accord and save a bundle.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    Well if you want a smaller car, with a now questionable V6 that many are having issues with the cylinder deactivation go for it. The larger heavier Avalon gets the same power and FE w/o the use of cylinder deactivation. I really don't think that the lack of folding mirrors is a glaring ommission on an otherwise great car.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Well if you want a smaller car, with a now questionable V6 that many are having issues with the cylinder deactivation go for it.

    Would you care to elaborate your thinly veiled statement? Cylinder deactivation serves two purposes: fuel economy and reduced emissions. The Avalon running on all 6 cylinders produces more greenhouse pollution, than an engine running on two cylinders. Fuel economy is function of drive ratio as well as engine efficiency. The latter may be a more efficient engine.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    Over on the Accord board there is a whole discussion with over a thousand posts I think the title is "2008 Honda Accord VCM" or something to that effect. From what I read people are not happy with the transition from V6 - V4 - slant 3 some complaining of excess vibration and a whole host of issues.

    The whole point of my post was a person smashes their mirror and blames it on the car. To which my response was drive a smaller car with some "teething" problems to get your folding mirrors. And before I get flamed here... yes I know Yota had their problems with tranny software and the first couple hundred six speeds. I am sure Honda will sort it out as Toyota did.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • robtroxelrobtroxel Member Posts: 103
    The Accord is now rated as Full size and the interior volume is virtually the same. What is inflated would be the Avalon selling price vs a similarly equiped Accord !. Toyota quality control is slipping..check the JD Powers reports and then think about that not ready for prime time 6 speed auto tranny they unleased on the public with the Camry. VCM has been around a long time on other models so I'll wait and seewhat really happens based on consumer Reports and JD Power before I buy. Thanks for the tip !Now then, back to the folding mirrors..they should be standard and they certainly could afford to do this easily. They save money by removing the goofy door covering the radio. Over all I give the Avalon a solid "B". Too bad I paid an A+ price..don't kid your self tjc78>>it's not a Lexus!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    OK.. lets start out by saying that the Accord is only classified as a large car (by interior volume) on models without a moonroof go sit in the backseat of the Accord and you will certainly see how it is considerably smaller than an Avalon.

    The six speed tranny problems were in the hundreds of units. Toyota sold almost half a million Camrys in '07. That isn't all that bad IMO. No manufacturer it perfect. None!

    Over all I give the Avalon a solid "B". Too bad I paid an A+ price..don't kid your self tjc78>>it's not a Lexus!

    You're right its not a Lexus. The full size Lex is over double the price. The ES350 while nice is Camry sized and has a small back seat. Remember the ES350 shares running gear with the Av and Camry. Honestly, if the Avalon is a "B" find me a full size (real full size, not cheating like Accord/Sonata) vehicle that can even come close to the Avalon under 40K. The only thing that comes to mind is the Azera.

    As for the folding mirrors, I could care less either way. Unless you are driving something like a Tahoe or Navigator I just don't see the need.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    if the Avalon is a "B" find me a full size (real full size, not cheating like Accord/Sonata) vehicle that can even come close to the Avalon under 40K. The only thing that comes to mind is the Azera.

    How about the 2008 Taurus/Sable? I just bought a Sable Premier for about $25000 out the door. I really like it, and may be the best car I have ever driven:
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f166ea9.f166af7/23
    There are some great deals to be had on these cars:
    http://www.dalejarrettford.com/ad/DaleJarrettAd.pdf
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you pay attention to that forum (2008 Accord VCM) you'll notice that most people are repeat posters who say the same thing over and over (AND OVER) again, and many of them are posting about having no problems.

    While I do believe there are a select few with problems, I don't think it is as widespread as those on the forum make it out to be. Of course, if I had one of the problematic vehicles, I'd raise a stink over it to, so I don't blame anyone.

    Back to the fullsize cars? :)
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    The full size Lex is over double the price. The ES350 while nice is Camry sized and has a small back seat. >

    If I may, I'd like to interject my 2 cents here...When I was in the market for a new car, I basically had it narrowed down to 2 vehicles, Buick Lucerne and the Avalon. One day while actually driving to Toyota dealership to drive the Avy, my eye was caught by this dark colored car that came flying by me.. turns out it was the ES350. Really caught my eye.. went to the Lexus dealer and started shopping. I will admit that the Lexus in my opinion is a little "fancier" inside, and has an appealing body line. Comfort wise I was not impressed. It was ok, but certainly didn't feel as roomy to me as the Avy. And if memory serves me correctly both the avy and the ES350 use the exact same power plant. When I went back over to the Toyota dealership I realized why the ES350 caught my eye.. because in my opinion the avy and the 350 have alot of similarities. and I couldn't see why I should spend more just so I can own a so called "status symbol".. I've owned vehicles in the past that greatly outprice the ES350, but this time around I was looking for a blend of comfort, good power and good fe. all three of which I found in the avy, and for less than the price of the lexus. Not knocking the lexus, i'm sure it's a fine car, but for me the lexus "L" couldn't justify the difference in cost. JMO



    As for the folding mirrors, my wifes Envoy has em,.... I don't think that in the 2 years we've owned that vehicle, that we've ever folded the mirrors in once. so for people like us, it's really a non issue.

    Roland
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    get back to the vehicles that are on topic here.

    Thank you.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    "How about the 2008 Taurus/Sable?"

    I just don't think it is up to par with the Avalon/Azera on numerous levels (interior and engine mainly). For the initial dollar amount, may not be able to beat it, (especially the base model Taurus). However, remember.. with the rebates and low selling price resale will be horrid. Not an issue if you are keeping it 10 years, but certainly if you want to trade out in 3 or 4.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • robtroxelrobtroxel Member Posts: 103
    If you examine the specs, the Accord has more front leg room >much more hip room than the Avalon. The Avalon certainly wins in the back seat area leg room but I don't sit there and really appreciate the extra driver space. If you shift the cost analysis down to near 30 K, what comes close to the Accord EX with Nav?(Toyotas Avy nav is cumbersome to use having to stop to enter new destinations etc) Finally. the folding mirrors are found in all the 40 K plus cars and the<under 30 K Accord. Even the new Chevy Malibu has them. Like many of you I never gave this a thought until someone caught a passenger mirror on my Avalon in a parking lot. The door frame was actually distorted too. The body shop said if the mirror had folded, it would have cost 90 bucks to fix instead of over 500. In this day my suggestion in that there are many alternatives out there since we bought our Avalons. Side by side I don't see $8 grand difference to justify another Avalon even though it has been a good car and maybe the best car a couple of years ago..others like the Accord rate about as high and seem to have a higher percentage of residual value. I appreciate eveyone's input for there is really no "right" or "wrong" here whatever one's car choice might be. For me the "only a Toyota" blinders are off. There is some great competition out there to choose from!
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Took my Azera in for an oil change 25,000 mi (using synthetic) and my service manager told me that his mechanics are scheduled for Genesis training in May. So, I am guessing delivery's sometime in June here in Denver. My average mileage is back over 24 and apparently consistent with another Azera owner who was also in for an oil change. Still absolutely NO problems. Still on original tires, and just rotated them. Discount Tire seems to think another 5,000+ without any trouble.

    Drove home from the mountains last night in a snowstorm. Road was solid icy/slushy and Azera handled it easily, but with everyone being careful. Love that traction control and Electronic Stability Control. I understand by 2009 all cars with be required to have that capability.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    why would you not be comparing your EX/Nav. with a Camry XLE/Nav - same price and much closer in size. Accords and Avalons - apples and oranges - but it has been many many years since we had a Toyota or a Honda that warranted the exclusion of the other - as you say lots of good choices.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Took my Azera in for an oil change 25,000 mi (using synthetic)
    Sure hope that wasn't your first one - not even a good synthetic can be relied on for that! ;) Also use synthetic and IMO so should everybody else.
    Getting 30k miles on a set of OEMs probably means some Bridgestones or something 'cheap' because it is nothing to write home about. Heck, I had 48k on my Av's Michelins and they had maybe another 10k tread left when I replaced them!
    Would suggest to you that if you are driving anywhere near hard enough that you know about your TC/ESC then one of a number of things is happening: 1) the mfgr. has set intervention levels too low and/or 2) you are driving too fast for the conditions and/or 3) the systems aren't working right. They ought to be transparent in 'normal' driving. Thought that 2010 is the year that our erstwhile government is requiring the 'nannies' BTW.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Not knocking the lexus, i'm sure it's a fine car, but for me the lexus "L" couldn't justify the difference in cost.

    The ES350 is just a glorified Camry V6 XLE, period.

    People who are buying that car are clearly looking for status symbol with the industry leading customer service and dealership experience. To be honest, I couldn't justify buying an ES350 (I'd go with either an Avalon or Camry V6 XLE) but I can understand why people are buying it.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I change oil @ 3750 using synthetic( I baby my car) though I can use 7500 interval with synthetic .
    I still have original goodyears on my car with 60k+ , rotate them @ 7500 and i still have about 20 k+ left on them.

    in on of the past discussions you mentioned that TCO for Azera was higher than for Avy. As you can see tires do contribute to that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    WOW.

    Do you not have a type of Oil Life Monitor on your car?
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    I do, however when you baby your car, you follow to lowest manufacturer oil change recommendations.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the Av has a helpful reminder that flashes at you at 5k intervals, which corresponds to mfgr. recommendations.Fortunately the maintainence' light is resettable by the car owner. Not sure I would trust a car's computer to arbitrarily determine how good the oil is, have to wonder if it does it by actually evaluating oil quality or it simply makes a determination based on the type of driving done. Some of the better synthetics claim 15k, buy Mobil 1 at Walmart for $21 or so for 5 quarts and do it every 5k nonetheless, the 2GR takes over 6 quarts :cry:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Interesting. With an oil-life monitor in my car, no recommendations were made except to follow the indicated service codes when the monitor hit 15%.

    3750 on synthetic seems like double overkill to me. I can see 7500 on synthetic, or 3750 on regular. I go 4,500 miles in my old Accord w/180k miles on regular Castrol.(manual recommends 3750 in stop & go "severe conditions" but 7,500 for normal conditions which I actually fall into).

    You must do a lot of city driving?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    the Av has a helpful reminder that flashes at you at 5k intervals, which corresponds to mfgr. recommendations

    I see.

    A certain Toyota competitor's maintenance minder monitors driving style (counting RPM) and doesn't go strictly by mileage. For example, my driving sends me for a service about every 7500, according to the minder, while my dad's car with the same monitor goes about every 6000, since he races around a bit more than I.

    My old 1996 (this was around a long time before though) has a little colored square under the speedo which you reset yourself by inserting the key into a hole beside it. At 6,000 miles it turns yellow (from green) and at 7500 turns red. It's simple, and doesn't glare at you, but it's kinda handy considering the vehicle's age.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >reminder that flashes at you at 5k intervals,

    You mean the Avalon does not have an oil life monitor that senses how the engine is being used, temperature, number of starts, miles, speeds, etc., to adjust the life of the oil it's predicitng? I could have a QuickLube sticker onthe windshield tell me the 5000 miles intervals. :cry:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    always thought the quality/fit n' finish was a level higher on the Lexus labelled products than on the Toyota labelled ones, even ESs. The effects of 'made in Japan' perhaps, but the ES ,while it has always been a 'glorified' Camry, I believe to offer something other than 'free loaner cars' for the extra money despite the 'disdain' that owners of the true RWD Lexus' have for them
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    the Av has a helpful reminder that flashes at you at 5k intervals

    Captain, if the Avalon uses the same system as my Lexus (which I think it does) then the reminder isn't set to pop up at every 5k miles. Instead, the system actually monitors the oil condition and when it thinks an oil change is required you'll see it flashing at you.

    I've paid attention to this several times and not once did it pop up at 5k (or 4.9k, 4.8k...) mile exactly from the last oil change.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    that's correct - would seem to me to be a whole lot more reliable in terms of the engine getting properly lubricated - your inference being that you would trust some silly computer to evaluate your driving style, so IT can make that decision and IT knows what type oil I put in it? Ridiculous idea IMO, with my heavy highway driving, I am supposed to trust a computer to tell me that after 15k or so, I might want to change my oil and then go argue with some dealer somewhere that is contending that I didn't change the oil (when trying to get out of a warranty claim) that it's all OK 'I did what the computer told me? No thank you - I'll take changing it every 5k - whether some silly computer 'thinks' it needs to be or not.
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