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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • cwintermeyercwintermeyer Member Posts: 2
    I've decided to buy a new 2007 Azera Limited. To help kill the time until I make the purchase, I posted a blog with my thoughts about my decision. The post also includes several video reviews, a couple of Azera commercials and an IIHS crash test video. Feel free to check it out at http://blog.wintermeyer.us/2008/03/hyundai-buddy-hyundai.html

    - Chris
  • wobbly_earswobbly_ears Member Posts: 160
    Chris (Got your name from your blog :))

    I'm an owner of a 2007 Azzy & before I bought it, I did months & months of research. I always thought I should document all the reviews & Youtube videos somewhere but never got around to it.

    A good collection & needless to say, would be invaluable to anyone who's looking to find more info about Azzy.

    Good luck negotiation & do let us know how it went.

    I had a question though; WHy not go for a 2008? Even though there's no perceptible difference between 2007 & 2008 as you claim on your blog, they say suspension is improved & handling improved in 2008. Hope you're getting a GREAT deal on 2007
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    THANKS,
    currently g8 V8 according to some magazines is the best performing vehicle on this forum. if FE and resale were higher , this car could have been on my shopping list
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    How can you predict resale yet? Actually, I would figure this vehicle to be OK in that dept as there aren't going to be that many to go around and being such a performer at an attractive price. I wouldn't be surprised to see some dealers marking up the first few they get. What kills resale on so many domestics is the large incentives to get them out the door. For example a 2008 Grand Marquis has a $5500 rebate. No wonder they practically give them away used.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    how much of the G8s resale is going to be determined by $4 gas prices? SUVs remain a very popular vehicle type these days but other than the small CRV types the mfgrs can't give them away and you sure don't want to be trading one in right now. Would bet you see the same on the G8, while it might blow the doors off anything in this group in the straights and in the twisties, after an initial 'honeymoon' FE issues will largely determine how much in demand these cars remain new and used. This is the same thing that happened with the 300C, you suppose that Chrysler having a bit more trouble selling them now than they did a few years back?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    This is the same thing that happened with the 300C, you suppose that Chrysler having a bit more trouble selling them now than they did a few years back?

    Considering things like lifetime powertrain warranties, 0% financing and rebates....I think you know the answer to that ;)

    As for the (V8) G8, I don't think it will never be a mainstream vehicle, so resale may not be as horrid as most V8 domestics. Only time will tell. If GM is planning on using this platform elsewhere in the line (i.e. Lucerne / Impala) that could change. What I wouldn't mind seeing is the direct injection 3.6 (CTS) as the base engine for the rumoured RWD Lucerne.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Don't know how much this matters to the Drive Safely finger-wagging lecture series going on here, but I believe the reason carmakers went to speed limiters was to avoid liability concerns because of the car being able to outrun the speed rating of the tires.

    FWIW.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a 2008 Grand Marquis has a $5500 rebate
    which brings up an interesting question - if they can't sell these overweight gas hoggish V8s in something as relatively cheap as the GMarquis, or FTM something not so cheap like the 300C, then why should General Motors expect the G8 to sell well or Hyundai the Genesis etc. etc. Maybe the car buying public is a little more sensitive to things like FE than I give them credit for?
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    The grand marquis may have something to do with the fact that it hasn't been significantly updated or changed in a decade or more, people just don't see it as a car they want regardless of the fuel economy. I think GM and hyundai aren't expecting too much out of the cars, I don't know about hyundai's goals but GM only wants to sell 40,000 cars this year, shouldn't be too hard.
    Scott
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It's called driving excitement, neither of which the G-Marquis or the 300 offer.

    However...I really don't see the V-8 versions of the G8 and Genesis as being top sellers period. As stated in a posted previously, the V-6 variants will be the mass sellers.

    The higer gas prices creep, the car buying public will be extremely sensitive to FE. Instead of comparing Mainstream Large Sedans, we'll be comparing mopeds and bicycles here!!! :D
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Scott - I would guess that there are enough HP addicts out there to sell 40k vehicles per year and the G8 even with the V6 doesn't figure to offer anything remarkable FE wise. Certainly the old standby RWD solid rear axle 'Detroit' sedan is older than Methusa - but the GM is a 'lot of car' for the money. Is it the fact that it is such an ancient lumbering design or is it the crappy FE that makes it such a tough sale?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    In this group those V6 variants you are talking about don't project to do very well at the gas pump either. Both the Hyundai 3.8 and the GM 3.6 have shown to be quite capable of putting out 300hp or so - but neither engine has been particularily good on gas in lighter cars.
    Your comment about mopeds etc. would obviously then make the diesel (and hybrid) an obvious 'solution' if we want to keep our big cars, although I'm afraid that these 6 second excursions to 60mph will be a thing of the past :cry:
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Sorry that's what I was trying to say, that the ancient design of the grand marquis was the problem it may be " a lot" of car for the money, but it severely lacking in features, refinement, comfort, powers etc compared to almost any other car in it's segment. General Motors should have no trouble selling 40,000 G8's but trying to get a lot more than that and the poor FE (as you say even the v6) might begin to hurt sales but no more than other similarly inefficient large sedans, I think it has been noted that even the avalon doesn't get that much better milage (by the EPA at least). As I have no idea what Hyundai's goals are for the genesis I can't say wether they are being realistic or not, but I have a feeling they aren't expecting to sell 2 or 3 hundred thousand of them so it probably won't be a problem to meet their sales goals.
    I wouldn't think that anyone would consider any of the large cars to be really fuel efficient anyway, but yes 1 or 2 MPG might make a difference to some people (it would to me but I wouldn't be looking at this segment at the moment anyway, I just like to see what is going on in it).
    Scott
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes, but when one is shelling out $4+/gallon, 1,2 or even a 3 mpg difference will mean the world. So if the V-8 version is getting 16/25 and the V-6 variant is getting 18/28...and the buyer can get the car optioned out exactly the same beyond the engine...I bet they'd opt for the V-6 version.

    Have you seen the price of diesel lately??? Out here in the DC area, its running higher than premium gas now. Last I looked, it's already hitting folks for $3.98/gal. as opposed to the $3.19/gal. for regular.

    Trust me...I haven't been making any forays into speeds above 80 lately.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    Maybe the car buying public is a little more sensitive to things like FE than I give them credit for?

    I think its an increasing issue especially for people that drive 40 and 50 miles to work. Gas adds up really quickly. IMO a car like the G8 is strictly for as you call it HP addicts and those who wish they still had their Chevelle 454 big block, T/A etc.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I think it has been noted that even the avalon doesn't get that much better milage (by the EPA at least).
    by the EPA - true, but the Avalon at 22mpg overall (CR's number) is a minimum of 2 mpg better than anything in this group (reference CR 08 Auto Issue) and also the most powerful (for a V6). It is even competitive (FE wise) with cars that are substantially smaller and lighter. I doubt seriously that you will ever find 4 bangers in cars like this, unless, of course, they sport 20:1 compression ratios, are turbocharged, and burn that new (and expensive) 'clean' diesel.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    that the ancient design of the grand marquis was the problem it may be " a lot" of car for the money, but it severely lacking in features, refinement, comfort, powers etc

    Let me start out by saying that I no longer believe the GM is competitive in this category.... However for something dating back to 1980 (1992 most recently) it has held up fairly well. My Grandfather's '04 averages just over 18 with very little hwy driving. Its plenty quick, handles OK with the newer rack and pinion setup, as quiet and as comfortable as my '06 Avalon on the hwy and has just about every creature comfort you could want..heated seats, steering wheel controls, ATC, TC, Side airbags, power pedals, heated mirrors, keyless entry, alarm, wood steering wheel. What more do you want? Its not for everyone, but those who want a big "old fashioned" car cheap there is nothing else left.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    Last I looked, it's already hitting folks for $3.98/gal

    Over $4 here in Jersey.... good 'ol 87 is still at $2.95 though.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Never thought I'd see the day when gas was cheaper in NJ than here in Alabama. It's $3.19 for top-tier regular (Chevron, Shell, etc) here in Birmingham, and about $3.13 at the cheap places.

    Diesel is $3.99 pretty much everywhere here.

    Hey, 6,000 posts... aren't we due for a tire-rotation or something? :shades:
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    I thought I would throw in my .02 here. Gas here in south-central PA is going for $3.29/gal at most stations. :cry:

    And a local station just put in a diesel pump. It goes for the rock-bottom price of $4.32/ gal! :sick:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I'm really starting to see how diesel would be the way to go here! (sic) :sick:

    Tell me again how diesel would be an advantage????
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    $3.73 for premium here in metro LA. :sick:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Louis...you use premium???
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't have a choice, my car requires premium. :cry:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    OUCH!!! :sick:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Which is this? Most just "recommend" it, but don't actually require it. Our Odyssey was this way, causing horsepower to drop from 210 to 205 if you used regular. No biggie.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I know most are "recommend" but mine is "required". I don't think anything would happen if I put in regular but by doing that I would probably void the factory warranty.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    May I ask what kind of vehicle this is?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    It's not a large sedan, I have an IS350.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks... curiousity had the best of me. :)

    Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Personally, I don't know why it is necessary for the drastic annual changes for any automobile. I would rather they make and refine what they make than come out with a new vehicle, just to please the eye. Then again, that is why I don't buy a new car every year. I would rather see improvements, particularly in the FE line than a new tail light, or fin, or some other external change. My 2 cents.
    van
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I don't know why it is necessary for the drastic annual changes for any automobile. I would rather they make and refine
    you are an uncharacteristically intelligent auto buyer. The reason WHY has to do with tradition (remember when Detroit's new car introductions were an EVENT) , buyer expectations (the new car buyer doesn't want his new car to look like last year's model) and lastly, of course sales - there has always been a widely held misperception that 'new' is better when, in fact, the opposite may be closer to the truth.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    I don't know why it is necessary for the drastic annual changes for any automobile

    What vehicles change drastically every year? If anything the cycles are getting longer. For example the Avalon didn't get one change (other than option packages) until its 4th year.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    On average...a particular model refresh lasts about 3-4 years (in most cases).

    The Azera...has gone through minor changes, but remains overall the same car when you look at it now going from 06 seemingly into 09. The previous XG ran from 02-05.

    Avalon ran in 4 year stints...95-99, 00-04 and 05-present. Maybe a refresh coming in 2010???

    The Maxima was all over the place...81-84, 85-88, then...89-94, 95-99, then a quick 00-03 and then...04-present. It was due.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Oh I agree there is no need for drastic annual changes, I used to drive volvos so I know all about long lasting body "styles". It is just the Grand Marquis has been left languishing for so long that no one considers it anymore, despite the fact it probably isn't as bad as the age of its platform might suggest.
    Scott
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Fair enough, I am just saying that none of these cars is a fuel miser at this time, and I agree you probably aren't going to see a 4 cyl in them anytime soon (at least I hope not). A diesel might be better if the price falls back into line, otherwise the milage will be better but the costs will be about the same (and I am a believer in diesel for the short to medium term).
    Scott
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    Maybe a refresh coming in 2010???

    I read somewhere that not until 2011 :(

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    wasn't it really the Japanese that 'convinced' Detroit that it really wasn't necessary to reinvent the wheel every year? I think back to major body redesigns you could pretty much count every year in the 50s and 60s by those Detroit brands even if the car underneath the new body style was really the same. Fins lasted what? 2 years?
    The Avalon may get enough body style changes in 2010 (or 2011) that it really looks different than the 2005 but I would bet that the basic car underneath is not changed much - why fix something that ain't broke? The 2009 Maxima OTH needed enough changes that would upgrade it some although it too is much the same basic car underneath.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    would bet that the basic car underneath is not changed much

    Probably right, think back to the 96+ Avs that platform was used until the '05+ came out.

    Speaking of the Maxima... I can't wait to see one in person. I really like the new look and the interior is so much better than the previous generation.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the interior is so much better than the previous generation
    if there is one common complaint about Nissan products this is probably it. The 2002 Altima was revolutionary in many respects but with an interior lacking in comparison to Camrys/Accords, same could be said for the G35 in its class, and the Maximas in its various renditions. I don't think Nissan really learned to make a nice interior until the 05 Ms, the new Maxima quite similar (and quite a bit better) - there seems to be a 'richness' to it never seen before in that car.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    The interior was a big turn off to me when I last drove a Max. The new generation looks to have fixed that. I still worry about the car having a CVT, but only a test drive will settle that.

    Here is a nice article click here</a

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • cdmuilecdmuile Member Posts: 152
    Re the CVT: We just got a new Rogue. Forget everything you know about an auto tranny. The CVT is wierd to say the least. It seems to maximize FE while seemingly searching around alot. Not really, just your perception. We've had the car for about 3 months now and I kinda like the CVT. It'll take more than a test spin around the block before you can form an opinion. It does get the power to the drive wheels in the most efficient manner. Still, it feels strange.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    I experienced it in a Ford 500 and absolutely hated it. However, in all fairness, that car is underpowered to begin with. So, I'll give it another shot once the Max comes out. It certainly seems to be somewhat like a traditional auto with the switchable ratios (or whatever they are calling it) that you can change with the paddle shifters.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It'll take more than a test spin around the block before you can form an opinion.
    and this may be a problem for Nissan trying to restablish the Maxima, especially on the 'sporty' side of things - people do buy cars based on a test drive. The same people that would appreciate the Maxima's power and 'tightness' are the same ones that'll likely not to like the CVT. It used to be that CVTs didn't hold up real well in high HP/torque applications and was a transmission choice for the econoboxes of the world - Nissan has apparently solved that, but you would still have to wonder what makes their CVT so much better.
    An interesting decision though to keep the CVT while trying to revive the whole 4DSC thing. A seeming contradiction. I have a sneaking suspicion that the CVT is something my wife would love, and something I might not. BUT I do understand who really makes decisions in my house :cry:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a source for cost of ownership numbers. Nothing too terribly surprising other than for those cars that are perceived to be the 'best values' that this is NOT necessarily the case.

    http://www.automobilemag.com/new_car_costs/01/toyota/index.html
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    With people now dissing 4-speed trannies, some even the 5-speed, and Lexus having an 8-speed, you'd think CVT would be utter perfection for all. Personally I think a good 3-speed will give you great performance if the engine has a wide enough power and torque band...and maybe a 4th for overdrive highway cruising. More than that can cause gear hunting if the algorithms aren't right. And with today's "learning" transmissions, that hunting is sometimes exaggerated. I've driven a Cadillac DTS with the Northstar V8 and 4-speed, and a STS with the Northstar and 6-speed and I found the 4 speed to be a better match for that engine for just that reason.

    As one of my favorite lines from the movies goes: Sometimes more isn't better, it's just more.....
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    The Azera actually comes out $1900 more than the Avalon.... but you knew that already, didn't you ;)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the number that surprises me is that the first year depreciation on the Azera at $7k is about double the Avalon $3.5k - keeping in mind these TCO numbers are for 'base' models. According to these numbers, the Avalon would recover pretty much all its purchase premium really quickly bought new but it also says that the Azera is far and away a cheaper car to own if I buy them one year old. You have to wonder if the 'Korean car' rep combined with the non-transferrability of that warranty isn't the culprit.
    This site does allow you to run the TCO of about any car you'd like pretty easily and will also give you TCO numbers for the higher (more expensive) trim models. It is kinda amazing that the top 3 in the TCO sweepstakes (Av/MaxAzzy) are the same 3 cars that dominate CR rankings and generaaly the mag. comparos.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    true, but I think it is also true that the CVT is much simplier and less to repair (more like those 'old fashioned' 4 speeds you mention) than these new 6 speed + jobs where a $3 or $4k rebuild is common.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It is kinda amazing that the top 3 in the TCO sweepstakes (Av/MaxAzzy) are the same 3 cars that dominate CR rankings and generaaly the mag.

    Which goes to show that you really can't go wrong with either of the 3, it's just a matter of preference.
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