Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

1…118119121123124…134

Comments

  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    "What does Hyundai need right now - how about a 'luxury' brand like Jaguar - even though that brand has lost some of its luster under Ford?"

    Isn't it funny that a Jaguar became a more reliable vehicle under Ford and it "lost luster'? :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Isn't it funny that a Jaguar became a more reliable vehicle under Ford and it "lost luster'?
    Granted a seeming contradiction, and also something that that is probably true - Jaguars did become more reliable , BUT is it also not true that many 'lusterous' brands (eg BMW,MB etc.) are not necessarily so reliable primarily due to a very high level of mechanical (and technical) sophistication. I would contend that about the only 'luxury' brands out there that maintain a high level of reliability despite high levels of sophistication are Japanese - not German, Italian, or British.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    "Isn't it funny that a Jaguar became a more reliable vehicle under Ford and it "lost luster'?

    Better phrased: "Isn't it sad that Ford mismanaged Jaguar into a brand that lost luster, despite making an enormous investment to improve its reliability?"

    The reliability improvements, and the improvements to the signature XJ sedan, were just about the only things Ford did right with Jaguar. The fatal blunder was to take the model line downscale: first the $40,000 S-Type that was transparently available for $10G less as a Lincoln, then the coffin-sealing $30,000 X-Type (also offered as a station wagon!) that was even more transparently a tarted-up Ford Mondeo. Can you say "Cimarron"?

    I talked to someone who was associated with Jaguar marketing at that time. The problem was that Ford saddled Jaguar with annual sales goals that were so unrealistically high, Jaguar had no hope of even approaching them except by going so far downmarket that their long-term brand equity would inevitably be damaged. Which is exactly what's happened.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    but even still - would'nt you think that Jaguar remains a 'luxury' brand despite whatever Ford may have done to it? Lincoln yet another brand name that is suffering - believe that GM is doing an adequate job elevating Cadillac but Ford seems to be doing the opposite with Lincoln, much like what they did to Jaguar.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I'm still trying to understand FoMoCo's thinking on the $40K price tag for the '09 Lincoln MKS and it doesn't even offer a V-8. If anything...the MKS is what the Montego should be. I'm wondering if they will drop a Ford version above the Taurus???
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    I'm wondering if they will drop a Ford version above the Taurus???

    Maybe I am wrong but isn't the MKS just a rebadged Taur/Hundred?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No...the MKS is all new with a 3.7 V-6...not using the 3.5 as seen in the Taurus/Montego, but it is based on the same platform as the Taurus though.
    2009 Lincoln MKS
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    do you really think that a simple 3.5-3.7 engine size increase makes the MKS really any different than the 500/Taurus that spawned it? 'All new' is an interestingly variable definition with the mfgrs. these days.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    Right... same platform. Why would Ford need another version? Now.... drop the 3.7 into the Taurus, tighten the suspension, add some ground effects and call it an SHO. Nah, never happen, lol!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually...yeah, because it goes beyond simply changing the engine being used. If you noticed they also said direct injection to be used to increase power to equal the power of a V-8, but offer better FE. Not to mention the technology that'll be available. However...all that aside, I'm not convinced enough to pay $40K+ for one. The Genesis will blow the MKS away easily for under $40K, offer more room, more power and just as many amenties (except for heated rear seats).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Same reason GM has 4 versions of the Lambda platform (Outlook, Acadia, Enclave and Traverse). I guess they figure to flood the market with the same platform sans varying available options depending on which brand you choose.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    more power does not a new car make necessarily - the Taurus is really the same car as the old Five Hundred with the same basic engine but with 60 added horsies. Direct injection is fine and a lot of mfgrs have already 'discovered' it - your Azera 3.8 should logically be capable of well over 300hp with DI but that in itself would not make it a 'new' car - just a bit more energetic.
    The 'bling' packages are logically going to be even more extensive on something Lincoln is going to price at $40k when you can buy basically the same car for $15k less as a Ford. But 'bling' doesn't necessarily make for a luxury car either.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The Taurus IS the 500, Ford messed up when they changed the name to the 500 and folks weren't buying, so they changed it back to Taurus to give buyers something to recognize.

    The MKS is a newer car based on everything else that has been done to it...even the suspension is done differently. Just because the same platform is used, it doesn't mean it has to be the same car. Isn't that an argument we already had and you proved that point to me???
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Lincoln, in my mind, no longer makes a 'luxury' car. Instead Ford has systematically been bastardizing the brand with what are really Fords. Guess it must be cheaper for them to do it that way. Either way, don't believe that there remains any Lincoln labelled product that isn't also available as something much cheaper. At least Caddy had the sense to reserve at least some parts of their line as something different - and better.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    That's exactly how I feel. I do feel what you're saying, but I guess they are trying to separate it by using real aluminum and real wood trim and offer things that aren't available in the Mercury/Ford line-up.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    Ford has systematically been bastardizing the brand with what are really Fords

    When hasn't this been the case? 40 years ago? The Mark was always a Thunderbird/Cougar, the Town Car was a CV/GM, the late 80s/early 90s Continental was a Taurus. The only car they ever put out in recent years that wasn't a badge job was the LS. BTW, a damn fine car that never caught on.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the LSs that tonycd mentioned - but, then again, those were relabelled Jaguars but also something you couldn't have with a Ford/Mercury label on it. Lamented the passing of the LS.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The LS was to Licoln as the GTO was to Pontiac...IMO.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    Should have worded that better.... not a badge job from the Ford stable :surprise:

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    Same reason GM has 4 versions of the Lambda platform

    Just imagine if Olds was still around, they may have 5. How many versions of the Trailblazer are there? I think even Saab has one. Just crazy IMO.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're absolutely right!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    And on that note, let's head back to the subject, 'kay? ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Pat, I have a suggestion, why don't we turn this place into "Large Sedan Lounge" so the regulars here can talk about anything that's interesting in the large sedan market without a strict boundary? I have faith in the regulars here that we all respect each other (to a degree :P ) so we are fully capable of taking care ourselves without much of the "baby sitting" just like in the Luxury Lounge.

    What do you think?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Ford messed up when they changed the name to the 500 and folks weren't buying, so they changed it back to Taurus to give buyers something to recognize.
    Some of us are old enough to remember Galaxy 500s :cry: , not that I can recall anything remarkable about that particular car.

    but no matter

    they changed it back to Taurus to give buyers something to recognize.

    and then to their amazement they discovered that they had ruined that name as well - and it still doesn't sell. The Taurus was a pretty contemporary (and successful) car 20 years ago or so.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    BTW, I think you'll find that the current 500/Taurus isn't really related to the previous generations of Tauri at all (except for possibly that wonderful DT 3.0 ;) that (unfortunately) was reused). The current Taurus coming instead courtesy of a Volvo S80- perhaps the reason for the car's height, boxier proportions, and generally good safety ratings.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If you noticed they also said direct injection to be used to increase power to equal the power of a V-8,

    Maybe their V8, not a BMW V8. :)
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    [the Taurus is really the same car as the old Five Hundred with the same basic engine but with 60 added horsies]

    I've heard this repeatedly now: "the Duratec 3.5L is just a bigger version of the old unrefined Duratec 3.0L."

    It actually takes a lot more than just bumping up displacement by 0.5L to get an additional 60 HP. Just like comparing the Lexus ES300 (210 HP) to the ES350 (272 HP). They had to do a lot more than just increase displacement to get that additional 62 HP.

    The fact that they kept the "Duratec" label means nothing. They've done it before: look at the first year of the "Triton" 5.4L V8 in the 1997 F-series. It made only 230 HP. The current "Triton" 5.4L makes 300 HP and provides better fuel economy. Both engines have the same label, but other than displacement, they have little in common internally.
  • smithedsmithed Member Posts: 444
    Thanks,

    That's a good analysis of what happened. Trying to make Fords out of Jaguar. :shades:
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    Both engines have the same label, but other than displacement, they have little in common internally.

    The heads went from 2 to 3 valves and some sort of variable valve timing was introduced. The basic engine design and bottom end are very similar if not identical.

    You are right about the Toyota example though, the 3.0/3.3 have nothing in common with the 3.5.

    Ford's 3.5 is considered "all new" however, I do wonder how much of the "old" 3.0 was used. They share the same 60 degree architecture and similar valve layouts.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    LOL Well...they didn't specify, but I would go along with that thought!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The fact that they kept the "Duratec" label means nothing and
    they have little in common
    while I'll admit to know little about the specific components in Ford's DT engines, and generally will agree that a ~20% bump in displacement is hard pressed to yield a 30% increase in HP, my observations (in an Edge) are generally that the 3.5 is the same DT in terms of refinement as the anemic 3.0 was. This has generally been confirmed in many other reviews of this engine in multiple Ford products including the Taurus. Reference the current issue of CR where they road test/compare the new Accord along with things like the Amanti and Taurus, and you will see the same sort of comments along with a negative comment about the 'new' engine's FE. It does seem that Ford's 'new' DT3.5 while it does give the Taurus competitive power it does not really give it an overall competitive engine in terms of refinement. It may or may not be a simple bore/stroke job or it may or may not be a 'new' engine as Ford will certainly claim but the results are the same - a generally substandard engine IMO especially when you consider that it was 3 years late in coming (it was supposed to be in the original Five Hundred), and in relation to things like the Toyota 2GR, the Nissan VQ and even the Hyundai 3.3/3.8.
    I would be willing to bet that had Ford been able to get the production of the 3.5 up in time we would not be talking about the 'Taurus' today however - the 500 would still be alive and would have sold much better!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    When the Ford Taurus is second to only Toyota, I believe, in the power/mpg compromise. 263hp, 18/28 isn't what I'd call substandard. Substandard is the powertrain in the Lucerne, Impala, and base model Charger/300.

    The Duratec isn't as silky as the 2GR when you listen to it, but it's also TONS better than the GM pushrods, and certainly not loud or obnoxious enough to be offensive. The top of the class is the 2GR, but that doesn't make everything else bad; just not as "excellent" as the 'Yota.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    but it's also TONS better than the GM pushrods
    as almost any DOHC engine should be - but you also forgot to mention Ford's own 4 liter pushrod V6 - recently had the experience of driving one in a rental Mustang - that engine is the one that gets my nomination as the worst of the worst with all due 'respect' to the GM 3.8. And yes, the engines in my Avalon (and my wife's Altima) have definitely gotten me to expect more out of a V6 than simply some HP.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, the 3.8 (RIP) and 4.0 from the Mustang sound like they have 200k miles on them straight from the factory.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    in a car like the Mustang even the V6 version should be 'peppy' which it isn't and I guess because the engine would be less 'insulated' then say the 3.8 is in the Lucerne it is that much more bothersome. Pushrod engines may have a place in those big ole 'lazy' V8s but as far as smaller 4 and 6 cylinder engine are concerned - I agree, RIP
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,901
    It could be worse, remember Ford's 3.8 from the Thunderbird/Winstar/early 90s Taurus?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yeah, think they all must have been derivatives of the 3.0 Vulcan - soon to become the "Hertz' standard. ;)
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    I saw and sat in the "Lincoln" at the auto show. It's painfully obvious it's nothing but a tarted-up Taurus. They didn't even fix the parts of the interior that suck, like the hard flat door surfaces and the gap-toothed duo of gauges.

    Betcha they sell at least six of 'em. Hope they left a vacant space in the Ford museum next to the Blackwood.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If I'm not mistaken, the 3.8 from the last Windstar is the same engine from the Mustang.

    Back to the fullsizers?
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    I think it's pretty impressive that in the 2008 Taurus, the new 3.5L Duratec hooked up to the same 6-speed automatic gets 2 MPG better on the Highway, and 1 MPG better combined compared to the 2007 Five Hundred with the old 3.0L Duratec. I'd say Ford definitely refined the Duratec V6: 60 more HP *and* better fuel economy. This new engine pulls the Taurus to 60 MPH in 6.8 seconds, which is faster than most people even need.

    I think the Taurus is the best value in the class. Clean looks, roomy and comfortable, 28 MPG Highway (where most people do the majority of their driving), and you can get one nicely equipped for around $21,000. The only comparable car that comes close is the Azera GLS, which you can get for around $22,000. All others cost thousands more. Anyone who's in the market definitely needs to check out all the brands. Back in 1998 or 2000, I'd say stick with the Japanese brands. Today, in 2008, Hyundai and the 2 of the Big 3 have stepped it up to the point where they are definitely worth a look.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    call Ripley's - a rare occurrence, for sure - I know somebody real well that would tell you I'm never right - think you can guess who that is... ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I know somebody real well that would tell you I'm never right

    Never right about what, Captain?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    pretty much anything, of course - you must not be married? :confuse:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Oh...I'm married, actually going to be celebrating our 7th anniversary this Sunday!!! I can be right, however...I get blamed for everything that goes on...even when I'm not around.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    suggestion to you after ONLY 7 years (I've got 25 under my belt) - it is sometimes easier just to admit to whatever you did wrong BEFORE you know what it is she is complaining about.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Rule #1: The wife is always right!

    Rule #2: When wife is wrong, refer to Rule #1. ;)
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/features/specs/
  • bobber1bobber1 Member Posts: 217
    I've driven plenty of GM push rod engines and they are darn durable and get relatively good mileage. True not quite as smooth running as the Japanese OHC engines, but still pretty sweet power plants.

    I currently have an 08 Taurus with the 3.5 engine. The engine reminds me of the old 3.1 GM I had in an early 90's Lumina. It's got a loud growl when you start it and take off. Once you get the Taurus on the open road however, it's very quiet. The new Taurus's are very nice cars. The styling is too conservative, but you can't beat the safety, options, drive and price.
  • kscngkscng Member Posts: 12
    How can these people keep a straight face and say that buying a Ford Taurus (ie 500) is good decision??!!? Are you kidding me!?! Ford tried stealing the good stuff out of Volvos and tried to make Ford 500, but it still ended up being a piece of junk Ford!! And what kind of idiot would change name of #1 selling car (Taurus) to a numeric name like 500?? Answer . . . Ford, same idiots that made Explorers with junk front ends, E series vans that rollover and kill church groups and baseball teams, Expositions that catch on fire, Crown Vics that catch on fire when rear-ended (even cop cars!!!), etc. Ford is on their last dying leg . . . let the WHOLE COMPANY RIP . . . and good riddance!!
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    You are soooooo right.... me and the mrs. coming up on 27 years in May...( god that's a long time ) I learned my "married" lesson in the first 3 months of marriage... I bought "us" a new house without checking with her ( she had seen it and said she liked it, but we were still looking ) after not finding anything else that she liked in the next couple of weeks I made an offer on the house she said she liked, when I came in and told her I had purchased the house, you would have thout it was Pearl Harbor all over again... lived in that house for 5 years... every little arguement we had, no matter what it was about, that house would come up in the argument... needless to say, I'm now 53 years old and don't buy tennis shoes without asking. tread softly newlyweds....

    Roland
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles