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Comments
Thought the SAE change happened to effect ythe 06 and subsequent models - for example, my 05 Avalon rated at 280hp 'losing' 12 hp as an 06 model.
I know that my Avalon probably doesn't fit all the criterion for "touring sedan", but as a "road car", it's certainly hard to beat!
It is a shame that automakers install the cheapest name brand tires they can get for new cars. If they would allocate (and charge customers), for better tires from the get-go they may actually earn more business. I would gladly pay $200 more for a new car if it meant getting premium tires (instead of having to replace poor OEM tires early for $400-$600 more after only two years of ownership).
I put Integrity tires on my old '96 Accord and hated them. They were replaced with Bridgestone Potenza G009 tires and I love em, and are what I will put on my newer Accord when these expensive Michelins give up.
My folks are on-again off-again about getting a full-size car. My dad actually dislikes the Taurus but likes the looks of the Impala. I keep suggesting he drive a Mercury Sable, since the only thing he doesn't like about the Taurus is the look (he hates the chromey grill).
I don't pretend to understand my folks. Just a month ago they were almost ready to buy a Nissan Versa SL. Now they're back on the big-car bandwagon.
I dunno!! :confuse: :P
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
It's kinda funny to me to watch this progress.
Good luck to them.
The Camry is a stretch for them as well on price, when considering an XLE V6.
I just hung up with them, they really liked the Taurus, and will be going back to talk prices later in the week. They had a few program cars, with less than 15,000 miles, with leather, dual climate control, moonroof, etc. for $17k, and this could be the route they go. They will price new ones, of course, but the Taurus could be it.
Dad still dislikes the exterior, but liked the interior, and how it drove, and is willing to purchase this car, especially since the salesman (apparently a veteran Ford salesman of 31 years) was low-pressure, very friendly, and talked candidly with them; no games.
A big drawback against the Impala, they noticed, was the lack of interior space. Dad said it felt like his Civic in the back seat (a bad thing).
The Taurus was quiet, and solid, although their test car (with 13k miles) had a squeaking strut, which the dealer would fix before purchase, they said. That was his only concern. He liked all the bells and whistles, and said the car was plenty quick.
Besides, when comparing a 177hp basic Accord with a 263hp Taurus with some options, for similar money, the Taurus is the clear winner in bang for the buck; I'm reading a lot of owner reports talking about their highway economy; most are reporting 29-31 MPG. Since this will be a trip car, comfy, powerful, and well-equipped are important factors here.
Sure, the Accord has marginally better economy (3 MPG, according to the EPA), but it also has much less highway passing power (177hp and a 5-speed automatic versus 263hp and a 6 speed automatic).
Also, Ford has recently upped the horsepower, improved the interior materials considerably, and you'd be hard pressed to find a safer car (it shares its safety cage and chassis with the Volvo S80).
I actually think it's a classy and high end looking car, also. It reminds me of a Audi in the haunch and posture.
I have really high hopes for the Hyundai Genesis, because I like the interior and exterior of that car very much, and respect the decision to go with a rear wheel drive format. My nagging concern is whether Hyundai has been able to eliminate untoward suspension noise (as they seemed successful at doing in the Veracruz? I say this with a question mark because Consumer Reports says it's there, while MotorTrend says it's not).
If they are in a State with no sales tax, then I would agree it wasn't the best deal.
My parents have a 2007 Mercury Montego Premier and love it. My grandfather has a Ford 500 and likes it as well.
The Potenza G009 was a very popular tire. In fact, when my parents had their 2003 Impala LS, they replaced their G/Y Eagle GA's with G009's.
Bridgestone, however, has discontinued the Potenza G009 and replaced it with the Potenza G019 Grid.
I am 6ft5in tall, and no one can sit behind me in my Impala since I put the seat all the way back.
The Taurus, however, is the exact opposite. The driver's seat doesn't go back quite far enough for tall drivers, but the rear seat is extremely roomy.
My Grandfather is actually on his second Ford 500. The first had an incurable suspension noise/squeak. He traded it for a different manufacturer vehicle altogether. Then a couple of years later traded that for another 500 and has been pleased since.
If your parents are interested in the Taurus with the squeaky strut, I would suggest they have the dealer completely fix it before they ever sign any paperwork or hand over any money. The dealer will try much harder to properly fix it if it means a resulting sale as opposed to after the sale has taken place. That may sound preposterous, but I have seen things play out that way first hand.
The Taurus, in crash tests, gets 5 stars front, front side, and rear side.
The four door Accord, even with side air bags, gets only 3 stars for the rear side impact. (2008 models - Taurus - Accord)
The Michelins on my Accord are expensive because they are rated for high-speed (V-Rated). My Accord has a top speed of 130mph (a 4-cylinder!) according to Car and Driver and the tire is rated for that. My next tires will likely be H-rated (108 mph) and several hundred cheaper.
The dealer was going to go ahead and have the car fixed, period. That particular car isn't necessarily the one they were interested in purchasing, it just happened to be handy for a test-drive. Don't worry, my father is nit-picky about rattles and noises, and he wouldn't buy a car that made noise like that.
Actually, H-rated is 130mph. V-rated is 149mph. You should be fine with an H-rated tire. Some tire dealers, however, are reluctant to install tires that have a speed rating less than what was originally installed on the car. It is a liability issue for them that they would rather just avoid.
My Impala came with S-rated (112mph), but I upgraded to T-rated (118mph) when I put the new tires on it. The V6 Impala is electronically limited to just over 100mph, so anything more than T-rated would be overkill.
When you put the Taurus SEL up against the Impala 2LT, they compare favorably. The Impala gives you standard some features that either are not available on the Taurus (OnStar), and others that are optional on Taurus (remote start and electronic stability/traction control). Add the remote start and the stability control to the Taurus, and the Taurus SEL stickers for $25.5K. The Impala 2LT stickers for $25K. The Taurus and the Impala have $2K rebates. Both cars have an invoice price around $23.5K. Most dealers will sell Impalas right around invoice, which puts you at $21.5K for the Impala. If the Ford dealer will sell around invoice, the price will also be $21.5K.
Both cars offer similar performance, similar options, similar safety, and similar fuel economy. The Taurus has the edge in rear seat room, the Impala has the edge in hip and shoulder room. Impala is flex fuel, so if you wanted to you could run E85. Between the two cars, it comes down to a virtual toss-up.
Not even close... the Taurus is so much more car.. More advanced and powerful engine/trans, roomier interior and trunk, better fit and finish. The list goes on. Doesn't say much that the "flagship" sedan of both Ford and Chevy need to have 2K rebates to move them out the door does it?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Coming from a Honda, my folks value a smooth engine and top-notch interior, and in this instance were looking for a car with decent economy an plenty of highway power. The Taurus beats the Impala on these aspects; the extra roominess and top safety ratings are a bonus.
There is only a 30hp difference between the Taurus (263hp) and the Impala 2LT (3.9L V6, 233hp). The Taurus does 0-60 in 7.0 seconds, the Impala does 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. 0.5 seconds is not noticeable in day-to-day driving. The 4-speed auto in the Impala may be old school, but it has been around a long time and is a very smooth and reliable piece. The GM 3.9L V6 is no less advanced than Ford's 3.5L V6, unless you believe that a DOHC engine is better than OHV. I have owned cars with DOHC and OHV engines and personally do not consider one any better than the other.
Neither car will win any fit and finish awards. The nod would probably go to the Taurus, but the Impala is also well built. We have both an '06 Impala and an '07 Montego (now the Sable) in the driveway, so I have been able to observe the cars long term. Both are holding up well.
From an interior room standpoint, the Taurus has more overall passenger volume 108 cubic inches versus 104.5 cubic inches, but much of that comes from the fact that the Taurus is 1.5 inches longer and has a wheelbase that is almost 2.5 inches longer. It is physically a bigger car than the Impala. The Impala is 1.50 inches narrower, but has more hip and shoulder room than the Taurus.
Taurus SEL Impala 2LT
Front Headroom (in.) 39.60 39.40
Rear Headroom (in.) 38.80 37.80
Front Legroom (in.) 43.10 42.30
Rear Legroom (in.) 41.20 37.60
Front Shoulder Room (in.) 57.80 58.70
Rear Shoulder Room (in.) 57.60 58.60
Front Hip Room (in.) 53.70 56.40
Rear Hip Room (in.) 53.60 57.20
That extra room between the seats and the outside of the car in the Taurus probably helps it get 5 Stars all around, if I had to guess.
True
, a lower-rent interior (the cupholders are a joke!)
The interior is not that bad. It is attractive and durable. The Impala has an adjustable cupholder in the center console (on bucket seat models). You can swivel the cupholder center piece all the way into the console to make 1 large cubby. When you swivel the center piece back out, you can create two equal sized cupholders, or vary the sizes. In the back, on models with the fold down seat, the fold-out center armrest contains two cupholders.
, old-school 4-speed automatic
The old-school 4-speed is tried and true, and the Impala will get 30mpg on the highway even with 2 less gears than the Taurus.
, and only the gas-guzzling V8 engine matches the Taurus for acceleration.
The Taurus does 0-60 in 7.0 seconds. The Impala 2LT with the 3.9L V6 will do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. Not a significant difference in real world driving. The Impala SS does 0-60 in 6.0 seconds, and is not as much of a gas guzzler as people think. Owners are regularly reporting 27-28mpg highway with their SS's when driven "sanely".
Try revving that Impala up? It's not pretty.
My Impala has the 3.5L V6 and has more than enough power to light up the front tires at will. It is an eager and willing companion. It also sounds pretty good in the process. It's no V8, but it is certainly no slouch either.
Coming from a Honda, my folks value a smooth engine and top-notch interior, and in this instance were looking for a car with decent economy an plenty of highway power. The Taurus beats the Impala on these aspects; the extra roominess and top safety ratings are a bonus.
Both the Taurus and the Impala are great highway cruisers and have more power than anyone will ever need. I wouldn't classify either of them as having a top-notch interior. Serviceable and attractive, yes. Durable, sure. Tons of hard plastic, oh yeah! The IIHS rates the Taurus "good" for front and side, they rate the Impala "acceptable" for front and "good" for side.
At the end of the day, it all boils down to which is more comfortable and which vehicle serves your needs better. There will always be people that will choose one vehicle over another for certain reasons. It could be price, comfort, features, or maybe even the style of the wheels or the color choices.
I suspect a lot of it has to do with the interior door panels that Ford is using. Those built-in cupholders have to borrow room from somewhere
Also, the Taurus has 41.30 inches of front leg room, not 43.10 as I listed earlier. Typo
When a design is that dated, it SHOULD have all the bugs out of it. As of right now, I know of no reliability problems on the 6-speed Taurus. Plus, if top-gear isn't acceptable, the driver's right foot can call for a gentle 6-5 downshift; the Impala will drop from 4 to 3, making RPMs climb much higher, using more fuel. Also, the 4-speed won't be nearly as flexible in around-town cut-and-thrust driving. The 233hp Impala does make the same highway economy as the 263hp Taurus, and uses the MDS system to do so (nothing wrong with that). But, the advantage still goes to the Ford; more power, more flexible powertrain, equal economy.
My Impala has the 3.5L V6 and has more than enough power to light up the front tires at will. It is an eager and willing companion. It also sounds pretty good in the process. It's no V8, but it is certainly no slouch either.
No doubt that the power is perfectly adequate (I didn't mean that it wasn't). The sound that it makes is nowhere close to pleasing, unless you like coarseness, that is. Having been used to smooth to rev Honda engines, the Impala is a turnoff in that department, although the torque is certainly nice.
Where we both agree is that these are both good full-size sedans for the budget buyer. Where we disagree is that I feel the Impala feels a generation behind (probably because the guts of the car are a generation behind, I believe).
We shall agree to disagree, I suspect.
Grad I agree with almost everything you have said in battle Taurus/Impala however there is something wrong with MDS. Having to resort to these type of "tricks" to get the FE up is something I just can't go for. These systems rarely work at speeds over 60 - 65 MPH and will cut out on the slightest of inclines. I know that the 30 HP difference isn't that much and the FE #s are the same but give me Ford's 3.5/6 speed ANY day over any the 3.5 or 3.9 4 speed in the Impala. I still cannot believe they are putting the 3.9 in the Lucerne. A feeble attempt to make that car competitive.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
True.. but the Domestics lead the way in terms of rebates.
Neither car will win any fit and finish awards. The nod would probably go to the Taurus, but the Impala is also well built.
The Impala is pretty well done considering the age of its platform and running gear. I have had much time (as rentals) behind the wheel of Impalas and never thought it was a bad car. I just hated the engine. Slow to rev and to use Grad's wording "coarse" .
Both are holding up well
Glad to hear that. No doubt Ford and GM are building better cars these days. Unfortunately, perceptions are hard to change.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I got 30,000 out of Goodyears on a Boneeville and a Camry. I used Continentals on my Lucerne. About the same range. All very smooth riding tires. I’d prefer to have a smooth, expensive and short ride than a long, cheap miserable one.
Thanks.
Very true.... however IMO in a nutshell the cars are very similar, can be had for around the same $$ OTD so it really comes down to personal preference. The Taurus has a marginally better ride/suspension (a weak point on the Azera if you read the forums) and a little more room inside. The Azera has a better warranty and a better list of features (esp on the Limited). Resale should be about the same (not that great) since both can easily be bought at invoice less rebates (2K).
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The biggest detriment isn't the power that the Impala makes, but the use through the 4-speed automatic. Gear changes come approximately like this for the Ford 6-speed.
1-2 : 35 mph
2-3 : 60 mph
3-4 : 92 mph
5th and 6th gear are tall overdrive gears. With gears this short, the engine doesn't drop out of its powerband, only going back to 4500 rpm at its lowest point.
The Impala runs more like this:
1-2 : 50 mph
2-3 : 90 mph
3-4 : ?
The Impala drops to below 4,000 rpm after gear-changes, and while it has good torque there, the big horsepower numbers come at 5,600 rpm, a good 1,800 rpm away from where the engine is when the gears change.
I know nobody (I hope!) is running these cars like drag-strip maniacs, all I intend to show is that the gearing certainly works to the Taurus' advantage.
HONESTLY, its not a competition for me; I just like car-talk. I'm glad to find anybody who'll discuss things like this with me.
For those interested, I scrounged up a video of the Impala 3.9L Accelerating, on youtube. After watching it, you'll understand why their fuel economy readout lists only 16mpg average!
Impala 3.9 Acceleration
the HF 3.6 certainly a modern engine as you note which makes it even more surprising that GM hasn't figured out some way to make it 'standard' on most of its cars. Toyota used to make different V6s for different applications and is now using the 2GR line wide (including Lexus). It has been reported that this is SAVING them literally billions a year in mfg. costs - for a better engine.
Acceleration times are directly related to both a car's weight and its HP, HP being determined largely by how quickly (and willingly) an engine will rev. The problem with these old pushrod V6s is that they can't (and won't) rev very quickly and therefore are limited in what they can do from a power perspective almost regardless of what the specific gearing is. The fact that there are fewer speeds only keeps the engine working harder (off peak) and only aggravates the lack of refinement in the engine itself.
The 3.5L also sounds smooth under full throttle.
Impala 3.5L Acceleration
I am amazed that people post their illegal activities for the whole world to see :P
Here is a new Taurus. They have the radio on, but you can still hear the engine. Not all that much different than the Impala
Taurus Acceleration
A good indicator of an engine's refinement ( as well as sound deadening/isolation). In the Avalon (and, by observation, in the Azera and Max) I'll never hear or feel the engine running despite the fact that all those cars are significantly quicker than the two you mention - even to the point of me starting the car twice if I'm not paying attention.
IMO 'Detroit's' engine offerings are clearly inferior to some of the others in this group - in a number of ways and could only wish to be able to produce an engine as sophisticated as even the Hyundai 3.8, never mind the Nissan and Toyota 3.5s. Isolation from some of the 'driving experience' is really what sells in this class, the thought of the pushrod GM engine or even the slightly more sophisticated Ford DT 'grinding' away at 5 or 6000 rpm, makes me cringe.
I guess Nissan shouldn't deliver the Maxima, then. :P
My folks are pulling the trigger today on their Taurus; a certified used Taurus with 20,006 miles. The salesman is telling them they should get out the door for around $19k. It has leather and the convenience package (Dual Climate Control, Auto ON/OFF Headlamps, etc).
See their car here.
They are very impressed with the power and the upscale level of quiet in this car, at this price, relative to the Impala. It felt like a step-up. Sure, an Avalon is even more refined, but you don't get the bang for the buck in the Toyota either. Their budget was around the price of a new Civic, but they wanted something more comfortable. This fits the bill better than anything out there, for THEM. Of course it isn't for everybody.
No.... it is a step-up. Not only in roominess but in powertrain as well. If I had to pick between the two I would buy the Taurus everytime. This is coming from someone who may have owned the worst example of a Taurus ('93 w/ the 3.8 :sick: ) however Ford has come a long way since then.
After they get it, give us your impressions. I am sure it will feel huge compared to your Accord.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'm sure it will too, although having learned to park and drive in a Honda Odyssey (2000 model) I have been driving bigger vehicles for awhile.
They plan to come home in it this weekend; they've already told me they hope I"ll chauffeur them around in it, so I'll have a good impression of how it drives. It'll actually be the most powerful car I've ever driven, I think.
I also test drove a 2008 Accord again over the weekend, with a friend of mine in the market for a car. I told her I felt like we were in different time zones in the front seats. That's a wide car!
I think you did well, and I second the comments about its power and mechanical refinement. Yes, you can hear the car at idle, but it's a smooth and pleasant quality of sound, and there's subjectively no more din once you're underway than in the other entrants in the class. Captain's just got his (yes, much more expensive) Avalon on the brain.