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Comments
I was looking over those TCO numbers again. I had assumed our captain was right about the numbers being the same, but in reality, the Taurus IS the cheaper car to own according to this, but a sizeable margin. Sure there are different factors here, but hey, I'm not who started the TCO topic!
BTW - my bad - I typo'd earlier. My Taurus was $22.9k before TTL, not $21.9k, and I also added a $300 window tint.
Back to topic - does the Taurus transmission "learn" from the drivers habits? Seems like mine is starting to become more responsive on downshits - maybe just loosening up.
Av Limited pros: quality interior components, proven resale value
Av Limited cons: sunroof standard, poor nav system
MKZ pros: most features standard, good nav system, sunroof optional
MKZ cons: cheap interior components
Note that I have yet to drive either car. I suspect their rides will be fairly similar, and both will provide all the power I need for normal city and interstate driving.
A big criticism of the 2008 MKZ was its lack of stability control; that will come standard in the 2009 MKZ. Anyone know what changes are in store for the 2009 Limited?
Another choice may be the 2009 Lincoln MKS, but it is priced at the upper end of my desired range, and I am leery of buying a first-year vehicle.
Any comments regarding the Avalon Limited vs Lincoln MKZ (or MKS) are welcome.
The reason I throw in the ES is because it is a better competitor to the MKZ in my opinion.
Your transaxle is equipped with an adaptive learning strategy found in
the vehicle computer. This feature is designed to increase durability and
provide consistent shift feel over the life of the vehicle. A new vehicle or
transaxle may have firm and/or soft shifts. This operation is considered
normal and will not affect function or durability of the transaxle. Over
time, the adaptive learning process will fully update transaxle operation.
I am not sure about learning from the driver's habits but I have noticed a pretty substantial change in behavior between brand new and 7000 miles. With the miles, it has become more responsive and fuel economy improved, as well.
By the way, I dislike sunroofs too. I don't want to pay for them, they eat up headroom I need, and they introduce another chance for problems. That said, the Azera Limited (sunroof standard) has so much headroom that I find I can still sit in it comfortably. In all other regards, the car seems to fit your requirements precisely -- except for your insistence on paying over $30,000.
Genesis Review
I would probably take the Genesis over all those three.
First, the pricing.
Was given an initial offer of $22,000 Out the Door, and after passing it on to my folks, they were happy with that. No negotiating necessary. The breakdown on pricing looks like this:
2008 Ford Taurus SEL, Silver Birch over Stone, 21 miles on the vehicle.
MSRP : $26,615
Dealer Price : $24,844
Customer Cash : - $2,000
Manufacturer to Dealer Cash : -$2,000
Doc Fee - $199
TTL - $957
APR - 4.54% (Fantastic Credit)
Final Price - $22,000 OTD
As far as how the car drives, today was my first chance to drive it. A few short thoughts (as it was a short drive, after all)...
Powertrain: More than enough power. I felt like I just "wafted" to 50 mph. Shifts are incredibly smooth; smoother than the 2008 LE-V6 Camry I drove recently; probably the smoothest transmission I've ever experienced, actually. I "got on it" from a light, and it didn't make a fuss, it just "went." Quietly. Engine noise is very muted; most of what you do hear is the exhaust note, which is quiet, and has a nice husky sound to it. Very smooth-sounding; as smooth as our 3.5L Honda we had. Throttle tip-in is gentle; appropriate for a car this size. Interestingly, when accelerating on an on-ramp onto I-59 (70mph limit) I didn't "nail" the throttle, but instead accelerated like I normally would. The car stayed below 3,000 RPM, but had my dad (who at the time was sitting behind me) saying "easy there, cowboy - we want to buy it, you don't have to force us too by driving fast and wrecking. My mother actually told him "he's not gunning it; it is just a quick car!"
Handling/Ride: Steering is much too light for my tastes, but for a large highway car it should be just fine. I'm used to sportier Honda tuning. It felt accurate, linear, and quite easy to drive. It handled bumpy I-59 with only muted "thumps" from the suspension. No real floatiness, although the nose does pitch-up more than I'm used to upon hard acceleration (probably because it accelerates harder than my 4-cyl Accord!). Something that stood out to me was its tight turning radius. Surprising, really, in a car this size. I didn't do any "cornering" but in my test drive I felt more secure than in the Camry I drove not long ago, and rode as well.
Braking: A pleasant surprise. I was expecting the mushy pedal I experienced in the Toyota; wrong. While not as grabby as my 2006 Honda Accord, the brakes were firm enough, with feel that was well-modulated. I felt instantly comfortable driving this car in traffic, unlike the Toyota, or even my Honda (my Accord has very touchy brakes, and take some getting used to).
Features/Interior: Sync is a pleasure. The dealer even set up my folks' cell-phones, and showed them how to use it, having each of them execute commands from the driver's seat until they fully understood how it worked. Interior room is obviously unmatched by many others. The rear seat of the SEL model does not have adjustable rear headrests, so neck support is lacking for me in the back (I'm 6'5"). My mom was just fine (5'5") however. The rear bench sits well-off the ground at chair height, as do the front buckets. Those front buckets have little lateral support, but make for easy ingress and egress, and should suit this car just fine. The lack of a telescoping wheel was no big deal (sure, it should have it at this price, but it's placement was great). Materials such as the wood-grain aren't going to make anyone think this is a Lexus, but there was enough soft-touch plastic and well-damped buttons to make this car feel more expensive than it's $22,000 price; especially given the features. The leather is soft and perforated; interior color: stone. Stereo sound quality from the more basic 6CD system (not the Audiophile one) is better than adequate; at least as good as that in my Honda if not better.
I'll have more chances to drive this car as time goes on, but wanted to share my experience with it today. I already thought this car had a lot going for it on paper, but as a Honda guy I thought it might feel like an 80% effort. I was wrong. It is an 80% price for 100% good car. Give it a look.
Thanks,
TheGraduate
Also, is there a timing belt, or timing chain?
Thanks!
We take delivery of the Taurus tomorrow morning.
For the record, the person who I expected not to get into Sync that much, my mother, absolutely LOVES it. She thinks making calls while her phone is still in the back seat in her purse is the best thing since power steering.
now that is low - almost V8 territory, and enough to make one wonder if 'lugging' the engine to that degree won't effect highway drivability in an OHC engine that peaks it torque at engine speeds more than triple that. The Avalon is fully 10% higher in its engine speeds in top gear and I would suggest that even it would spend a lot of time downshifting to hold speed if it wasn't for the CVVT that effectively widens the engine's torque curve. Would be interested in a report on the car's behavior with the cruise set at 70 on moderately hilly terrain?
I would think that the 6 - 5 shift should be very soft. How much does the RPM increase? I'm thinking maybe 700. Even if its fairly often it wouldn't be as noticable as say the 4 - 3 shift in a Lucerne or Impala.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Whatever it was, it did just fine.
Completely disregarding
•gas mileage
•reliability
•and price,
where does the loaded Lucerne with Northstar rate subjectively as a daily driving experience against the Avalon, Azera or Lexus ES? (Note: if you haven't driven a V8 Lucerne AND one of the others, disqualify yourself from replying.)
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The reason I ask is that the Lucerne is big and stylish, but it does labor under disadvantages in size, turning circle, reliability history and fuel economy. So, for those of us who aren't simply American-only loyalists, it has to win decisively in some area to rate serious consideration, even if its price is discounted down to parity.
I'd think if there's any such area, it would be highway cruising comfort. Of course its V6 rivals aren't exactly slackers in that regard, either.
The non CXS versions are nasty. In this case, it's all about the suspension. The Magnetic Ride suspension turns the car from just another Buick into a proper luxury sedan in how it rides. It's not as fast in a straight line, but honestly, do you see middle-aged and elderly people really needing to smoke the tires on any of these large barges? Go drive a CXS. It's not an old man's car any more.
The Azera feels a notch down. A lot like the old Park Avenue, in fact. Good, but not the real deal(like a E class, DTS, or similar)
The Avalon is nice, but lacking the suspension... yeah, it's just another bland Toyota. The ES is a nice notch above(there is no "Lexus" in Japan - all models are "Toyota" there), but the price is a bit silly. Doubly so if you are looking for used values. Buick and Cadillac are probably the top two makes to look at for a used full size luxury/semi-luxury sedan.
Two years ago you'd be right but now you couldn't be anymore wrong...
http://lexus.jp/
Lexus has been selling cars in Japan for more than 2 years now.
There is also Lexus in Europe, Russia, Korea, China and Taiwan. As matter of fact Lexus is also the number 1 selling luxury brand in Taiwan.
Honestly, for a large car, the A8 is a very nice and often overlooked choice. the Volvo S80 also is as well.(though both have serious sticker shock, CPO is a whole other world more reasonably priced)
When I was in the market for a new car about 18 months ago, the lucerne with the northstar was the car I intended to buy. Having had the northstar in a Deville that I was trading in, I really liked that engine. When I test drove the Lucerne and put my foot into it, the northstar had a nice "throaty" growl to it. The car itself was very nice, alittle old school maybe, but still a nice vehicle. And overall, I think the ride on the highway is better than the Avalon, but then again, I prefer the "sofa" soft ride to the "feel of the road" ride. I actually went to the dealer to sign the papers on the Lucerne when my wife talked me into going down the road and looking at the Avy... First thing I noticed was that the avy actually felt like it had more room than the buick, I also liked the interior of the avy more, but the clincher for me was the powerful V6 in the avy that still provided much better FE than the buick. Ended up with the avy, when I called the buick salesman back to let him know I was passing on the car, he told me that in almost every instance where he had a customer that compared the lucerne to the avalon, that nearly everyone of them opted for the avy. Take it for what it's worth.
Roland
Can you try again, please?
Honestly I don't think it does. Its not a bad vehicle its just not as good as the Avalon and Azera. Those two models beat Buick at their own game.... big, powerful highway cruisers. The CXL Lucerne does ride a bit softer than the Avalon on the highway and about the same as the Azera. The CXS is a bit firmer more like an Avalon touring. Maybe for some they just prefer the looks.. IMO it is better looking than the Avalon or Azera on the outside.
I would love to know the % of Lucerne owners who owned Park Avs and LeSabres prior. I bet its pretty high.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Buick Lucerne V6
Pro: Classy Styling
Con: Power/Economy (Soon to be helped with the 3.9L), Languid Handling
Buick Lucerne V8
Pro: Classy Styling, V8 available at Toyota V6 price (some people wouldn't have a 6-cylinder)
Con: Poor Fuel Economy
Chevrolet Impala V6 (3.5/3.9L)
Pro: Torquey engines, big rebates
Con: Small Interior, Wide-Ratio 4-speed Automatic
Chevrolet Impala SS
Pro: Old-School V8 Power and Sound at Accord V6 Prices
Con: Fuel Economy, Small Interior
Dodge Charger V6
Pro: Muscle-Car Design
Con: Cheap Interior, fuel economy (lower than the Impala SS!)
Dodge Charger V8
Pro: Hemi Power, Aggressive Styling
Con: Fuel Economy, Interior not up-to-par considering price
Ford Taurus
Pro: Huge Interior Space and Comfort, Unique high seating position, Sync
Con: Exterior Styling awkward from several angles
Hyundai Azera
Pro: Upscale Interior Feel, Warranty
Con: Droopy Rear-End Styling
Toyota Avalon
Pro: 3.5L V6 Power and Economy, Available Lux Features
Con: Price, Option Packaging, Front-end styling
2009 Nissan Maxima and Pontiac G8 are too new to know (never been in them!).
EDIT: I got the name wrong indeed! I corrected it.
I have an 07 XL Avalon that came with leather, heated seats, etc., and a decent sticker price.
I just finished almost 800 miles of interstate At 75 mph and full air. I got 31+ MPG all the way. I don't know much about the "cons", but this car definitely has a lot of "pros"....power, economy, lots of room, decent styling.....a great road car.
Both do as well as the 08 Accord V6 on "real world mpg" as far as highway driving goes..
As far as EPA ratings go, the Taurus is 18/28, which is towards the top of the "midsize" class in rating, let alone the full size. The Azera for 09 is 17/26 which is also in the midsize range, though not quite up to Taurus snuff for rating, however, the "Real World MPG" thread has several folks reporting better than 30 mpg on their highway driving......
I usually get 18 mpg all city and 27 highway.
Based on the new fuel economy ratings the Charger 3.5L gets 17/24 and the Impala V8 SS gets 16/24. Real world numbers are probably worst for the Impala.
The Avalon is a really great car, but it doesn't strike me as nearly 30% better. Obviously different people have different tastes, and are willing to pay for the "Lexus without an L badge" and I understand that.
The exterior style of the Taurus isn't looked at as beautiful by many. I find it pretty conservative and don't care too much for the chrome grill. Luckily, their new car is silver, which keeps the chrome from looking flashy or "bling-bling" looking. The Avalon's front-end is frumpy to me, and no better looking than the Ford. Both are great cars, and my parents' actually wanted an Avalon after driving one of their friends' Avalon Limited, but couldn't justify the extra thousands of dollars.
I'd have to think that at this time, the Taurus your parents got is a really good value. My thought on the Taurus and Azera is that they are roughly equivalent cars.........