Lincoln Navigator

lani5 · May 2003

Auburn96, that is how my Nav started the week after we drove it out of the dealer's parking lot. I hope yours was just a fluke and not the beginning of a frustrating experience. Yes, I will definitely keep you posted. If your Nav's liftgate continues to malfunction, you may want to consider reporting it to Lincoln Customer Service. I've been told that my problem has been forwarded to their engineering department for analysis and they would welcome any other documentation just in case there is a possibility of a recall.

nvbanker · May 2003

While I have not experienced this phenomenon (yet), I have noted that the rear door does have a reverse trip mechanism, like a modern garage door, that when it encounters an obstruction doing down or up, it will either stop if going up, or reverse if going down. Obviously a good thing to avoid damage or squishing in the case of going down. If your door was binding somehow, or if the trip was overly sensitive, it could easily cause this to occur. You'd think there would be an adjustment that could easily fix it, or if not, replacing this component should fix it. This is not rocket science really, and a good engineer should be able to take care of it.

lani5 · May 2003

Yes, I definitely agree with you, nvbanker. This not being rocket science, a good engineer should be able to take care of this rear liftgate problem and, therefore, establish the much sought-after "error code" that the Service Manager was so adamant about seeing on his diagnostic computer. Perhaps the reverse trip mechanism is overly sensitive or somehow was "damaged" when the first motor was replaced.

What needs to happen next is for the Parts and Service Director to call back today with news that he has secured an appointment with the field service engineer. We'll see then if Lincoln actually follows through on its commitment to service.

nvbanker · May 2003

I'm dying to see how they deal with this issue. My buddy has a new Aviator that has a mystery electrical glitch that has them scratching their heads here. Once again, no error codes, but the antilock brake light comes on, and the turn signals become inoperable all at the same time, but randomly. They at least can demonstrate it easily, but can't figure out why the car does it.
They are being very nice about it, but inept at fixing it.

gator2003 · May 2003

TO ALL NEW GATOR OWNERS

I HAVE HAD MY GATOR SINCE OCT 2002. LAST WEEK I STARTED THE TRUCK PRESSED THE BRAKE AND TRIED TO PRESS THE GEAR SHIFT KNOB TO PUT THE TRUCK IN DRIVE. ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT THE GEAR SHIFT BUTTON WOULD NOT DEPRESS SO I COULD MOVE THE GEAR SHIFT TO DRIVE. I HAD TO POP UP THE HOUSING AROUND THE GEAR SHIFT KNOB IN ORDER TO MANUALLY PUSH DOWN THE LITTLE WHITE BUTTON IN ORDER TO GET THE BUTTON ON THE KNOB TO DEPRESS SO THE GEAR SHIFT COULD BE MOVED TO DRIVE. I FOUND THIS OUT BY LOOKING IN THE OWNERS MANUAL. THIS HAPPENS ONLY ONCE IN A WHILE. I TOOK IT TO THE DEALER BUT THEY CAN'T GET IT TO HAPPEN. ANYONE ELSE HAD THIS PROBLEM YET?

nvbanker · May 2003

The only problems related to this I have had, have been user error.....like couldn't get the key out of the ignition one day, but realized I hadn't put the car in park yet later. Very embarrassing, particularly after what I said.....

lani5 · May 2003

Inept is the correct word for describing the dealership I've had the misfortune to be dealing with, nvbanker. The Parts and Service Director didn't even have the decency to call back with word that he had set up the appointment with the Field Service Engineer to examine the malfunctioning rear liftgate. Where's the "Lincoln Commitment" here??? I'm beginning to suspect something fishy going on --- perhaps the original motor was never really replaced as I was told. I had to contact the Team Leader (a supervisor) at Lincoln Customer Service to push through with an appointment.

Even with that, The P&S Director delegated the task of calling me to his Service Manager who then contacted me from his home as he had the day off from work. They wanted me to leave my car overnight. What for? I could easily drive it to the service bay first thing in the morning when the FSE is there. Something fishy, I say.

It took another call to the Team Leader to finally get the P&S Director to contact me directly and confirm my appointment with the FSE next Tuesday, May 20th. This is worse than pulling teeth...

At this point, I'm thankful that the Team Leader followed through on Lincoln's customer service philosophy. We'll see what happens next Tuesday.

ford624 · May 2003

It seems that many editors and consumers believe that the Navigator would be a better vehicle if it had a more powerful engine. Which engine do you believe will satisfy most all concerned? Could it be a supercharged dohc 5.4, or a dohc v-10, or how about a supercharged dohc v-10?

nvbanker · May 2003

Keep the heat on. I think about your situation each time I (successfully) open and close the rear door. I just can't believe this is such a problem. I would hate to be a service writer at that dealership......

ford624: I don't know what I would do with more power honestly. I have towed cars up some long and steep grades, and my engine doesn't even break a sweat, rarely kicks down the gear. I have never understood those reviews that call the Nav "underpowered" after 1998. It was weak in 98, but from 99 on, it was plenty peppy for my needs.

Now, the Tahoe with 5.7, or the Sequoia - THOSE are under powered! That's why everybody I know put flowmasters on them immediately to boost the output.

So, I have no need or interest in blowing or upsizing the Nav engine. Seems good to me..

ford624 · May 2003

I want to accept what you say nvbanker .
BUT.
Why then does Edmunds Rating Editors have what is written below in its comments?
Cons
Engine falls short of some of its competitors',
Plus.
Squeaky wheels most always get attention.

nvbanker · May 2003

The only full sized SUV that can beat it is the Escalade, believe me, the others are slower. But I'm just saying, I've been delighted with the performance of the engine in both my Navigators, and I work them pretty hard at times. I also race the competition once in a while, just to see. None of the editors have ever liked the Navigator or Expedition much for whatever reason. But they don't buy cars, and I buy a lot of them. I have raced and beaten a Tahoe with a 5.7L with my 99 Navigator, which only put out 260Hhp at that time. I have raced and beaten a Sequoia with the same car. My new Nav puts out 300 hp, albeit at pretty high revolutions, but it's certainly more than adequate IMO.

e350v10 · May 2003

I believe the 4V motor was for 2000, not 1999. Try towing with it at altitude, and the need for a bigger motor becomes evident quite quickly:

2003 Lincoln Navigator
Premium 4WD 4dr SUV (5.4L 8cyl 4A)
300 hp @ 5000 rpm
355 ft-lbs. @ 2750 rpm

2003 Cadillac Escalade (6.0L 8cyl 4A)
345 hp @ 5200 rpm
Torque 380 ft-lbs. @ 4000 rpm

2003 Ford Excursion Limited (6.8L 10cyl 4A)
310 hp @ 4250 rpm
Torque 425 ft-lbs. @ 3250 rpm

2003 GMC Yukon XL Denali
320 hp @ 5000 rpm
Torque 360 ft-lbs. @ 4000 rpm

2003 HUMMER H2
Lux Series 4WD 4dr SUV (6.0L 8cyl 4A)
316 hp @ 5200 rpm
Torque 365 ft-lbs. @ 4000 rpm

2003 Mercedes-Benz G-Class
G55 AMG 4WD SUV (5.5L 8cyl 5A)
349 hp @ 5500 rpm
Torque 387 ft-lbs. @ 3000 rpm

2003 Porsche Cayenne
Turbo Tiptronic 4WD 4dr SUV (4.5L 8cyl Turbo 6A)
450 hp @ 6000 rpm
Torque 457 ft-lbs. @ 2250 rpm

Give us a supercharger or V-10!

gregcross · May 2003

I recently bought an '03 Navigator with the new DVD based navigation system, and I find it nearly impossible to see the screen when the sun is shining and the sun roof is open. If I put sunglasses on, I can't see it at all unless I get within inches of it (not a great option while driving...). Unfortunately, I didn't discover this problem until after delivery because of all the rain and cloudy weather we've been having in the southeast.
I called Lincoln about the problem, and they said no one else had reported anything. I went back to the dealership and drove another '03 with a navigation system and it was identical to mine. The salesperson and the customer relations person at the dealership both agreed completely with me about the difficulty in seeing the screen. I am waiting for the next sunny day to show it to the service manager and hopefully get something in motion that will resolve the problem.
I am wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience with his/ her screen. Any input would be extremely appreciated.

ford624 · May 2003

Lets do a little figuring.
If a weight to horsepower ratio is good enough for a Aviator, it certainly should be good enough for a Navigator.
A Lincoln Aviator weighs in at 4957 pounds and has 302-horse power with 300 pounds of torque.
A Lincoln Navigator weighs in at 6041 pounds and has 300-horsre power with 355 pounds of torque.
To end up with the same weight to horse power and torque ratio that an Aviator has, a Navigators horsepower will need to be increased to 368, and the torque would need to be increased to 366. (400 lbs of torque would be better)
Can you imagine what we would kind of horsrpower we would have if we used the Porsche Cayenne weight to horse power ratio.

nvbanker · May 2003

Look, I'm just saying, I've never felt the car was underpowered, that's all. I have dragged heavy cars in tow up Baker grade in California, which summits at 5000 feet, with no strain at all. And, please notice, e350, that none of the cars you listed were on my list of cars I felt were underpowered (Old Tahoes and Sequoia). Like you would tow with a Porsche anyway..... For the record, the 300hp 4V intech 5.4 was put into the 1999 Navigator mid year, or actually, in about December 1999. I know, because I got one of the very last 2V equipped models 260hp, and it did fine as well. Admittedly, I don't pull a house with it, just trailers with cars on them, but it's satisfied me. I'd be interested in a Power Stroke option though......but not a V-10. Unnecessary for me. I would certainly defend your rights to drive one though, if they were available.

e350v10 · May 2003

Perhaps the Ultimate could feature a bigger engine, as many of these models have different engine options.

The Toyotas (Landcruiser and Sequoia) only have tow ratings of 6500 lbs.

With the new F-150 getting 300 hp (and thus the 2004 Excursion), I'm sure more power is in the works for the Navigator.

Incidentally, I'm in Denver, so towing STARTS at 5280 feet!

nvbanker · May 2003

may influence the engine options, IF, these trucks are subject to them, and I'm not sure which side of the line they fall on.......

e350v10 · May 2003

6000 lbs - the 'Gator is not included

ford624 · May 2003

How much Horse Power and torque, do you believe, would be produced with the following?
1) Supercharged 4v 5.4
2) 4v v10
3) Supercharged 4v v10
Thanks

importfan14 · May 2003

Is the NAV really DVD-based? Last I read, it was CD-based. I'm about to buy a Navigator myself, and I'm deciding on the NAV.

nvbanker · May 2003

I understand the new ones are DVD based. Previously, there were CD ROM, and not very good by today's standards..... Try one first. They're pretty slick, unless the sunroof is open and the sun is shining on the screen....

nvbanker · May 2003

I'm not expert, so I'm just guessing, that the supercharged 5.4L 4V should get you 400bhp.

e350v10 · May 2003

1) Supercharged 4v 5.4
A. Horsepower: 380 hp Torque: 450 ft-lbs.
(This is the engine the F150 Lightening has)
2) 4v v10
A. Horsepower: 500 hp Torque: 525 ft-lbs.
(These are the specs on the V-10 Viper)
3) Supercharged 4v v10
A. Horsepower: 633 hp Torque: 661.5 ft-lbs.
(These are the specs on the V-10 Viper X 126%)

ford624 · May 2003

This would be good!

lani5 · May 2003

Just wanted to give an update on my power liftgate problem. Turns out the field service engineer, after an hour of testing, determined that there were indeed two problems that were causing my power liftgate to malfunction: a defective right motor and a "module" which handles the liftgate controls that needed to be replaced. The left motor had been doing all the work while giving a false diagnostic reading on their computer. What a relief to have indisputable documentation!

Incidentally, no one at the dealership even called to give me an update on the car. What is wrong with these people? The only one who had the wherewithal to give me a call was the supervisor, at Lincoln Customer Service.

So... right motor has been replaced. Awaiting shipment of the module. Meanwhile, driving a rental Ford Taurus (at the dealer's expense!) is not as comfortable... Can't wait to get my Navigator back in good working order!

e350v10 · May 2003

http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_0304_nynavk/

lani5 · May 2003

Awe-inspiring --- this 385 HP Navigator K!

nvbanker · May 2003

A TAURUS loaner????? Unacceptable to me. I don't pay $800/month to drive a Taurus. I demand at least a Lincoln loaner....and stomp my feet until I get one. And, sadly, I'm not really surprised the dealer people didn't call you, though they should. They figure this one is in Lincoln's hands now, and they'll tell you.

I would [non-permissible content removed] bitterly about the Taurus rental...if I were you. Tell them you want an LS at the minimum.

nvbanker · May 2003

Good guessing, it looks like.

lani5 · May 2003

I agree, nvbanker, that the Taurus loaner was unacceptable. Would have preferred at least an LS or a Town Car --- just any Lincoln. The dealership did not have any Lincoln loaners on its lot so I had to accept what the rental agency had at the time --- this being its busiest due to Memorial Day weekend. I've been out of sorts for 3 1/2 days until this afternoon when I got my car back!

Turns out that both liftgate motors needed to be replaced along with the shocks and liftgate module. Even though the service manager was so conciliatory, I would have liked to have called him some rather nasty names for not acknowledging the problem in the first place. Leave it to the field service engineer to get it solved and the Lincoln customer service supervisor to whip the dealership in shape. Now after two frustrating months, I can, like you, open and close my car's liftgate without any problems. The sound is smoother, softer, and more fluid. Time to really enjoy this vehicle!

What a lesson in patience and persistence! Here's to smooth sailing for all of us!

audia8q · May 2003

The Mercedes dealer in our area has 4 cyl camry's for loaner cars......

so what do you say when you pay $125,000 for a new car and you get a camry loaner....hahaha

tidester · May 2003

so what do you say when you pay $125,000 for a new car and you get a camry loaner...

I say you're lucky to get any loaner! It's a courtesy provided by the dealer who received no compensation from you. On the other hand, if the cost of a luxury loaner were included in your original invoice then show it to the dealer or take it to small claims court! :-)

tidester, host

nvbanker · May 2003

from a "just good business sense" perspective, don't you think the dealer understands that how one is treated AFTER the sale is the key to selling the customer another car? I am eternally baffled by the dealer mentality that seems to prevail almost everywhere, whereby you are treated ever so gently by the sales department, and treated like a leper in service. I have done business with this small Lincoln-Mercury dealership since 1989, primarily because they have been good to me in service, offering loaners, mostly equivalent to what you bring in for service, and making servicing the car as painless as possible. I don't haggle over the price of the new car, because they show some courtesy in service. I figure the cost of my loaner is in there.....so what they offer on the car, I usually just pay. It's reasonable, but I don't shop it around.

I will, however, start looking if they begin to treat me differently, because the value to me is not in the sale, it's between sales. That's when the hassle always begins.

Our Mercedes dealership here also serves up Camry's for loaners, and my employees who drive MB are NOT impressed.

I have purchased 10 vehicles from this dealer in the past 14 years, and spent about $300,000 retail dollars there on new cars. I don't think a Lincoln rental is too much to ask. It really softens the blow when your machine breaks down, which.....they all do eventually.

tidester · May 2003

...don't you think the dealer understands that how one is treated AFTER the sale is the key to selling the customer another car?

Of course and good for you if your dealer provides a loaner that is "comparable" to what you bought! But don't you think it's bordering on frivolous to complain about being provided with a $25,000 Camry that you will likely park in your office parking lot for the day rather than a $54,000 Navigator that will end up in the same place? :-)

As I said, it's a courtesy and there is no obligation on the dealer's part to provide any loaner. That he does so is laudable and makes good business sense but I am having difficulty garnering much sympathy in the Camry or Taurus vs. Navigator as loaner tragedy! ;-)

tidester, host

lani5 · May 2003

You're right, tidester. In a generic sense, the dealer was only obligated to repair my navigator. The dealer was not required to say thank you, or smile, or provide me with any type of transportation. I'm glad that you straightened me out on this --- especially since I'm dealing with a luxury car dealership in South Orange County, California.

e350v10 · May 2003

Actually, the Lincoln warranty requires that they give you a loaner. My dealership works with Enterprise to exclusively provide Lincoln vehicles to Lincoln customers.

If you have a Mercury, any loaner would be at the dealer's discretion.

lani5 · May 2003

My Lincoln dealership needs to take lessons from yours, e350v10. Yours has the right idea for great customer service, following the "Lincoln Commitment."

tidester · May 2003

I'm glad that you straightened me out on this...

Anytime - glad to help out! ;-)

tidester, host

nvbanker · May 2003

you think I'm a snob, don't you..... It's ok. But really, it's not that I'm too good to drive a Taurus while the tugboat is in the shop. It's about good customer service to me. That's what keeps me loyal to this particular dealer, and buying Lincolns. Frankly, I'd be just as happy in an Expedition, I really only buy the Lincoln because of the way the dealer helps me out in sales & service.

Example: In 99, I was looking to upgrade my Mercury Mountaineer to a larger SUV. The Mountaineer was very competent, but I needed more people space + the towing ability. Went to the Ford dealer to test an Expedition. Was treated like a potential car thief, salesman went with me on test drive, never had the chance to make a left turn as I was told exactly where to drive, only right turns, and when I asked for the price, I was told, "The price happens when you're ready to buy it". Well, I was ready, but so mad at that point, I went back to the Lincoln store, where I was told to "Pick out the one you want to try, and take it home overnight". So, I paid $10,000 more for a wood steering wheel.

I know exactly what you're going to say. "that's a lot of money to pay to drive an LS when the car is in the shop". And, you're right. But I do, and I notice I have a fair amount of company. If I were a dealer, I would provide upgrade loaners for my customers, because driving a nicer car than what I own inspires me to upgrade. My dealer has provided Town Cars for loaners for all customers, Lincoln or Mercury for years. It is only recently they stopped doing that and put a Hertz office inside. Cost cutting, I'm sure. I have warned the GM though, (previous owner died last year), that if he starts treating me like his former Dodge dealership did, I'll have little reason to stay... That's all I'm saying about the loaners.....

tidester · May 2003

you think I'm a snob, don't you.....

Not at all.

I do think there is a difference between shoddy treatment of customers as you described and whether one gets a red loaner vs. a silver loaner for the few hours one might have one's vehicle in the shop! :-)

I know exactly what you're going to say.

I dont' think so! I'd be the last person to suggest how one should or should not spend one's money.

I can understand your point, however, as I too might be a bit miffed if I were given a GeoMetro as a loaner (I'd feel unsafe in such a small underpowered vehicle!). I think my reaction would be to decline the offer and visit a different dealership the next time around!

tidester, host

steve00gator · May 2003

At 4500 miles I am bringing the Gator to the dealership for service and wrranty work. I have noticed a rattle under the vehicle that seems connected to the exhaust, my passanger side mirror has a mind of its own, (after tilting down when backing up it somtimes goes all the way up) break dust on the front wheels, and I had my clock disconnected so I don't have to hear it groan. Any suggestions or help?

nvbanker · May 2003

Let me know what they tell you on the brake dust. I have that too and on the Chrome wheels, it' makes them ugly quick. I don't know if it's excessive or not, but the brakes are incredible! I've been in 2 max stops already, and these brakes really shut this big rig down!

You must have the hearing of a dog, the clock doesn't bother me at all, but having it not work would.... whatever.

tom4365 · May 2003

We're considering replacing our '99 Volvo XC with either a Ford Expedition or Lincoln Navigator.

Did anyone on this Board test drive both? If so, why did you choose the Navigator?

Also, are there any significant changes planned for MY2004 like the 3-row side airbag? Any reason to wait til for the '04s or should we buy an '03 and take advantage of the rebate and financing deals?

nvbanker · May 2003

Frankly, it was the design of the fabulous interior that influenced me the most. You can get most (not all) of the features from the Navigator on the Eddie Bauer Expedition. But I'm not too fond of the Expy interior this year, and once I saw the Navigator, I was hooked. Also, you get a more powerful engine with the Navigator, if that matters to you. I opted not to buy the power running boards, I thought they were annoying for $795, but most people think they're great.

I'm not up to date on what the 04 may have that the 03 doesn't. Maybe a rear camera. Hopefully, they'll get the body tighened up a bit. First year issues are not awful, but there are some.

ANT14 · May 2003

I noticed you have/had a Volvo XC (not sure your reasons as to why your replacing it, let me know) but have you thought about possibly a Volvo XC90 ? I can give you some tips on that vehicle, over an Expy/Navi if you tell me what exactly your looking for.

The majority of people don't really need a RWD/BOF type of vehicle, so there's other alternatives such as car based, which is why I mentioned the XC90.

As for the differences between Expy and Navi, is quite a bit to justify the price difference. Handling wise, you will feel more isolated in the Navi. Not isolated in a Camry sense where you aren't communicated on the road (both have good on-road communication compared to numerous other SUV's), but wind/road noise are much more suppressed. NOT that the Expy is loud...they just addressed the issue more so.

Power wise, you will notice the Navi picks up speed after the tach. hits 1500rpm. Whereas the Expy you fill the thrust down low. Although the Navi is a bit quicker, but not that much being the Navi weighs a few hundred pounds more. I call it "luxury pounds", so the added horsepower you might see, might not be that evident.

Another common reason, is the Navi will require premium gas, where as the Expy runs fine with regular. And Lincolns extra year long warranty, with maintenence also sweetens the pot.

MY2004 information hasn't yet been released to the public, but mainly because that's still being worked on. How much can you really improve on a totally new vehicle.... If I do find that information out (which I believe I might in the new few weeks) then I'll share.

Although the next major change will take place late next year, possible MY2005. At that time (In the Expy), the current 5.4L 2V SOHC will be replaced with a 5.4L 3V version pumping around 300HP. This engine will debut in the new F-150 in a few months, and will be phased into the Expy line in the next retouch (usually occurs 2-3 years after initial introduction). But again, this is still over a years time away.... Would be pointless for you to wait such a long time, because we are looking at today, this week, this month, NOT over a year away.

The Navi will also be upgraded in power. More on that at another time when I can confirm it.

akirby · May 2003

The Lincoln warranty no longer guarantees a Lincoln loaner - it only guarantees you will be given transportation (could be a loaner or a shuttle bus or a ride from Fred the janitor). Lincoln used to reimburse the dealers $35 a day so it's obvious that cost is built into the cost of the vehicle - which means you're paying for it and it's not just a dealer courtesy. Or it used to be - that might have changed now. And I think it makes a much bigger difference if you have a loaner for a few hours or a few days.

As for the "break" dust - I assume you mean brake dust - buy some Porterfield R4S brake pads if they're available. Stopping power will be increased greatly and there will be virtually no dust.

tom4365 · May 2003

Thanks to ANT14 and nvbanker for their responses. Our reason for wanting to flip our '99 XC (which we love) is space -- we now have 3 small children and that vehicle just isn't large enough to haul both kids and stuff. I like the new XC90 but I don't think it's large enough for what we need.

I personally would like to see my wife in the new fully-loaded '04 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited which is an AWD vehicle, but she's minivan phobic (maybe she'll feel differently if I can get her to test drive it). To get the same amount of space and luxury as the Sienna, you need to look at the full-size SUVs with a third row option. My gut feeling is that an EB Expedition would give us practically everything the Navi has for about 10K less $. (I'm not considering the big GM SUVs based on my preference for Ford products.)

nvbanker · May 2003

Well, I for one am VERY focused on the service side of the car buying experience, so if anybody from Lincoln (or Ford) cares, and looks at these boards, that's not comforting. I'm serious, the reason I have bought 10 cars from this dealership has been their service. Their mechanics aren't great, they miss stuff, they wreck stuff, and it's not always fixed right, but they ALWAYS put me in a loaner, and until recently, it was a Town Car or Continental so my inconvenience was minimized. I can live with all the rest under those conditions. If that goes away, so will I as I start looking for a dealer who cares about my life. Hell, I'd drive a Ford, I used to. But I don't like the Ford dealer service, the Lincoln dealer really made an impression on me. I really enjoy the extra attention you get there. Better not go away, or so do I. Wonder how many other people out there like me there really are????? Guess we'll see.

ANT14 · May 2003

Yes the Xc90 pretty much is the size and such of a midsize SUV, think Explorer territory here. The vehicle is safety overkill, even has boron steel roof pillar's which prevents it's roof from caving in, in a roll over. I mentioned it since it looked like you were safety oriented due to your previous version.

In that case, I would say maybe the Expy will be your better choice. As you pointed out, it's more inexpensive than the Navi, and it seems it'll work for your needs.

My only dislike for the Expy Eddie Bauer (and this is JUST a ME thing) is that the interior must be in beige, and I dislike beige interiors. But it's Eddie Bauer's signature you might say.

Test drive it and let us know your thoughts.

ANT14 · May 2003

My father always said a good mechanic, is like a good dentist. Treat him well, and he'll treat you well, and don't let him out of your sight. IN this case, he was an automotive engineer therefore it was first hand experience.

I can't say I've had negative experiences with a Ford L/M dealership. I've never had to take them in for warranty work or such so it's not something I can comment.

Although in my city, there is one Ford dealership I've stuck to. They understand that if I'm there, it's because I have a friend who's very interested I'm bringing along and chances we are walking out with something. So they cut the B.S. and get to the point. I also get to speak with the sales people, and I question them and see how "aware" they are about the product. And they give me great prices on the vehicle, because they are aware that I know what it really costs, and what their sales goals are and such :-)

Yet, I've been to every other dealerships service dept. everytime a friend needs to have some work on their vehicle, and something has gone wrong, or there's issues that haven't been properly addressed. (I'm becoming quite well known at one local VW dealership)

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