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Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

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Comments

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Obviously that prediction was wrong. As a result I wouldn't believe anything coming out of that rag.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Who can you believe? Toyota said they would have a PHEV by MY 2009. Now they are back tracking. Any prediction based on yet to be developed technology is suspect. Many times it is just wishful thinking. I have been hopeful of some practical breakthrough in EV technology for a long time. Still seems a long way off. Maybe further away than it was when the predictions were made in 1972.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    When did Toyota say that? I don't think Toyota ever said "we will have a working PHEV for sale by model year 2009."

    Got a link?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    When CalCars converted a couple Prius's to give them PHEV capability Toyota's response was to void the warranty. CalCars has aggressively lobbied Toyota to commit to producing a PHEV and Toyota's response has consistently been of total disinterest. I've read a couple non-committal responses from Toyota saying that they might pursue this option but I get the sense it is meant to placate all these people that want them to do this.

    I really don't understand Toyota's philosophy here. They have already produced an EV that was probably the closest to being ready for prime time yet they seem to be one of the bigger nay sayers when it comes to their viability.

    Anyway, this technology has been developed and PHEVs do exist. What's left to be done is make the technology affordable and bring it to the market.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Wikipedia is a very questionable source of information. I think more like 35 mph.

    Of course, I was think ALL aluminum....use of aluminum body panels was fairly common back then since it was so easy to fashion into shape. Steel-stamping processes were not well developed until the Budd Company perfected large-panel stampings for railroad cars in the 1930s.

    But those aluminum panels are probably nailed to heavy wood framework all-round the car....like a framed house with siding.

    ANYWAY---the recently marketed ZENN electric is restricted to 25 mph top speed.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    BERLIN (Thomson Financial) - General Motors Corp unit Opel plans to bring out an all-electric car at the end of 2010, GM's European chief Carl-Peter Forster was cited as saying in an excerpt from tomorrow's Auto Motor Sport magazine.

    He told the magazines that hybrid technology is too costly to use in small cars. A prototype of GM's E-Flex electric engine will be presented at the IAA car show in Frankfurt in September, he said, and series production is expected to start at the end of 2010. tf.TFN-Europe_newsdesk@thomson.com jsa
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "He told the magazines that hybrid technology is too costly to use in small cars."

    Yeah, GM should tell that to Toyota so that Toyota doesn't keep making all the mistakes that made it the global failure it is today.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    all I can find is where Toyota was going to have the Li-Ion in the 2009 Prius.

    In an interview with BusinessWeek on Feb. 16, Chief Executive Katsuaki Watanabe confirmed that Toyota's third-generation hybrid cars, due out in late 2008 or early 2009, will use lithium-ion batteries. Lighter and more powerful than the current nickel metal hydride packs, the new batteries will help make for more fuel-efficient hybrids. "We will change the battery from nickel hydride to the lithium battery," the CEO said during a rare one-on-one interview at the company's headquarters in Toyota City. Toyota officials say it's the first time Watanabe had confirmed the change of cells (see BusinessWeek.com, 2/22/07
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    I haven't heard of anything date specific, but they have increased research in the PHEV arena by quite a bit.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Actually what GM is saying makes sense. My guess is that most people buying traditional small cars are doing so based upon budget constraints. If incorporating Toyota's hybrid system adds $4k onto the price of this vehicle these people are going to realize that this isn't a good budget decision. That $4k represents a far bigger percentage of the price of a small car than a large car. Toyota was clever in this regard by creating a completely different vehicle in the Prius, which could go after a unique market of buyer's who's number one priority was fuel efficiency. Had Toyota introduced the Prius as a hybrid Echo it wouldn't have sold as well and of the buyers it got there wouldn't be many that had otherwise been shopping for a traditional Echo.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually the Prius introduced in 2001 was built on the Echo chassis. And it did not sell well. I came close to buying one for my soon to be ex-wife. She hated it. So she got to keep her 1990 Camry.

    I test drove it twice. The biggest selling point after the advertised mileage was the 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty. Toyota soon dropped that.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The first Prius wasn't that big a seller because it was hideously ugly I think.

    Woe be to the company that tells the Japanese that they can't do something.

    What GM says makes no sense to me, except that it is typical of what GM always says---and GM is usually wrong.

    If someone at GM doesn't think that small expensive economical cars don't sell, they should go to a MINI dealer and watch them fly out of the showroom doors.

    Just because GM can't do something doesn't mean someone else can't pull it off.

    Same old story:

    "no profit in small cars" ( and then the Honda CVCC appears in 1973)

    "americans won't buy convertibles" (and then the Miata appears in 1990)

    "Mercedes owns the luxury market right now) (and then the Lexus appears in 1990)

    "Nobody can build as good a pickup as we can" (and then the Titan appears)

    "hybrid technology is too expensive" (and then the Prius appears)
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Hybrid technology is currently too expensive. The only people that are willing to pay for it are those that put a very high priority on fuel efficiency or being "green". This is not the domestic's customer base. GM could build a clone of the Prius and it wouldn't sell, at least not for the same price as Toyota's. I'd be curious to find out how many people purchased the Geo Prizm as compared to the Toyota Corolla or are buying the Pontiac Vibe compared to the Toyota Matrix? This would be tough to determine because the domestic versions of these vehicles went into the rental fleet in large numbers.

    GM has finally realized that they need to change their image, which will hopefully expand their customer base. This will take some time and/or a revolutionary product like the Volt.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But every new technology is too expensive, right? How much will an iPhone cost in a year or two? Less than half I'd guess. Is it better than a regular cell phone? Yep.

    I think the Big Three should have a new slogan:

    "CAN'T DO!"

    This seems to have been their war-cry the last 20 years. It's hard to believe sometimes that this is the country that built the Golden Gate Bridge in two years and a Liberty ship in 4 days.

    Personally, I see the affordable plug-in hybrid as a vast new market with great profit potential. And I'm a "nobody" in the Big Three scheme of things. How come I know this and they don't?

    Toyota is putting a HUGE investment into future hybrids. GM seems to be hedging a bet on the side for an EV and that seems to be it.

    I just don't like the way this is shaping up. I got a bad feeling about it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I paid $26,758 for my TCH. I know of people who paid around $22K for their Prius.

    I know cost is relative based on one's station in life. When I was 20 years old, paying $27K for a car was unattainable.

    But for most two-income families, how is $22K to $27K "too expensive?" The average US new car costs about $28K. Getting a Prius for 20% less than the average new car price seems pretty reasonable to me.

    If hybrids are too expensive, why were June 2007 sales up 49% over June 2006 sales?

    If GM can sell the Volt for anywhere near $28K, it will sell like hotcakes.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Exactly! If people were just looking at it analytically in terms of fuel costs saved vs. higher purchase price and the government were not giving handouts to Toyota (disguised as tax credits to hybrid buyers...which merely increase the purchase price and toyota's profits) they would not sell. There was no guarantee of success when Toyota started this project and they can perhaps afford to take more risks than a finacially precarious company like GM. Does anyone even know if this hybrid project has actually even been profitable for Toyota as of right now or is success still a future projection?

    In addition, as you point out, if there is a GM label instead of Toyota the price is going to be lower.

    Just because something works for Toyota does not mean it would work for GM.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think in terms of prestige and publicity the Prius has been a jewel for Toyota. Even Americans are beginning to view GM like it was a crippled entity.

    I don't see why economy of scale can't bring the price of a hybrid within striking distance of say the compact market...between say $17K to $20K. You have to remember that the Prius right now is a fairly spacious, well-equipped car. There's a lot that can be trimmed.

    The problem for Toyota is that a plug-in type hybrid (which gives you both an EV and a gas car) adds cost to a regular hybrid. On the upside, one could achieve the equivalent of 100 mpg at a cost of about $1 a gallon. That type of performance, if accurate, makes the selling price somewhat irrelevant, since you will save $1500 a year in fuel if you are currently driving a 25 mpg car.

    So over the course of a 5 year car loan, that's $7,500...more than enough to justify paying say a $3,000 premium for a plug-in hybrid.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I'm not saying that $22-$26k is too expensive for an automobile. I'm simply addressing the hybrid option and how much that costs. Take the tax credits away because that only muddies the water. Toyota's hybrid system is the most advanced and I'm guessing probably adds at least $3k to the cost. Since you don't sell options at cost let's say this is a $4k option that is offered on a vehicle. People on strict budgets will consider this too expensive. People that don't care much about fuel efficiency (the domestic market) are really going to consider this too expensive. People that are very concerned with some of the social issues involved with fuel consumption will figure out a way to justify the cost. I'm not saying that's wrong but it involves bringing intangibles into the equation that are difficult to measure in dollars and cents.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The problem with Toyota's hybrid system is that it isn't designed to take full advantage of plug-in capability. With a PHEV the driver will want to be able to operate as a pure EV for short trips. The electric drive system in Toyotas was never intended to be the sole source of motivation, even if you had bigger batteries the electric motors just aren't powerful enough. Toyota spent a lot of money designing an elegant system where the ICE and electric drives compliment each other. This is a possible reason why they seem to lack enthusiasm for PHEVS. The PHEV is far more suitable for a series hybrid, with one drive system.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Yes, Toyota knows the hybrid option costs too much.

    That's why the engineers have been tasked by Toyota management to cut 50% of the cost.

    We'll see if they can do it.

    But the fact remains that the cost which it costs is just what it costs right now with the technology that is available. If someone invents a better battery system which does a better job at lower cost, then that's great.

    We are at the mercy of the battery technology right now.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't know enough about the systems to really comment intelligently....but I do know that private individuals have converted the Prius to a plug-in system and it seems to work.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    What actually exists and is being sold by Toyota is a hybrid that gets 46 mpg. This is for a car that is kind of between corolla and camry in size. Those get 24-29 mpg.

    So savings at 12,000 mi/yr is around $600. To me that might make it worth paying as much as, say, $3000 extra. However, I don't actually drive that many miles and tend to not like Toyotas. Then there is the whole hideous car issue :cry: .

    Instead, for $16,000 I got a beautiful Mazda6 :D, saving $5000-6000 over what my brother-in-law paid for a Prius (in the most hideous light-greenish color). For the amount I drive, the savings will cover 100% of my fuel cost for 5-6 years.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Yes, there have been Prius's converted into PHEVs and the gas mileage has improved significantly. The problem is that these can only be operated as a pure EV up to around 25-30 mph. Then the ICE must kick in. It's not that the batteries are discharged it's that the electric motors just aren't powerful enough to be the sole source of motivation in Toyota's system, they weren't designed to be. So someone that wants a PHEV who thinks that since he only has short commutes may never need gas will be disappointed with a plug-in Prius. That is unless he uses it solely as a neighborhood vehicle and stays below 30 mph. If that's all you want a Prius is a pretty expensive way to go. What the converted Pruis did is basically prove a concept.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes that was my impression---that the PHEV is a kind of "point-prover". I could do very well with a 35 mph PHEV--I'd buy one if it could switch seamlessly to ICE and if it cost the same as today's Prius and I could keep the cost at around $26,000. I expect gas prices to go up enormously in the next five years.

    MAZDA6 -- how did you get a Mazda6 for $16,000? That's $3,000 under invoice for the stripped model. Was it a used car? did you mean a Mazda3?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I don't think a hybrid system that switches between electric and ICE or sometimes uses both will ever be as simple or cheap as a system that uses electric drive 100% of the time, like in a series hybrid. In the series hybrid the only thing that will switch on/off is the generator, which will kick-in to recharge the batteries any time they fall below a certain level of charge. Other than the occasional sound of the generator the driving will be completely seamless.

    The only thing this dual drive system has going for it is that it is a little more efficient if you know that you will be using the ICE. For instance it is more efficient to drive the wheels directly than to drive a generator, which charges a battery, which provides power to an electric motor to drive the wheels. So if a particular driver knows that he will consistently be exceeding the vehicle's all electric range then Toyota's system would be more fuel efficient. If this driver feels that this will be a fairly rare occurence then the series approach like the Chevy Volt is more efficient and simpler.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think what PHEVs really will do is make the EV a primary vehicle, not a secondary one. This is a BIG deal IMO. I don't see EVs as primary vehicles for *most* people for many many years to come.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    I think that is essentially correct. It could well function as a kind of bridge vehicle. People would get used to the idea of plugging in...just like many were skeptical of the Prius at first. No one knows how electric storage systems will develop in the future...near, far, never? Maybe it evolves that power sources improve and back up ICE/diesels get smaller and smaller, and charging infrastructure slowly appears, until the auxilary power plant just disapears...like our tails. This does not preclude that all electric vehicles could come creeping in at the same time. We still need to get that first Volt-like car out there.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I completely agree with your evolutionary description regarding PHEVs and how we may gradually shed the ICE. Even if the perfect storage device never comes about it's not like a PHEV is a small step. A 40 mile all electric range could reduce the typical drivers fuel consumption by over 70%. Meaning with this one step we are now closer to the finish line than the starting line.

    I recently read that GM turned over a Volt-like platform for the A123 engineers to begin testing with their battery packs. GM states that they still plan on having a working prototype that will be similar to the production model by the end of the year. So things are definitely progressing.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    Thanks for the Volt update.

    The PHEV as promised is huge. 70% is a very conservative number. The 50 mpg alone would double most people's mileage...and the 40 electric miles gets you way up there. For me I would use 90% less fuel or better.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CalCars is one company I know of that has converted the Prius to plug in. The option with Li-Ion batteries is right at $12k. The extra weight makes an already poor handling car a safety hazard. That may be why they are still hard to find. Here is one company offering an upgrade for $24k. a real deal.

    Hybrids-Plus www.hybrids-plus.com Boulder, CO offers lithium-ion conversions of the Toyota Prius and soon on the Escape, for private individuals or for organizations; current pricing starts at $24,000.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think it's meant to be a profit-generating enterprise. In fact Calcars is a non-profit if I am not mistaken.

    A converted Prius can't be any more of a safety hazard than a Harley Hog or a 1975 Cadillac. "Poor handling" is a driver problem, not a car problem IMO. Besides, that's all fixable with tires and springs/struts.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe they add about 1000 lbs of Li-Ion batteries to the Prius. No mention of a beefed up suspension. All you need is a Prius and $12 grand and you can go for it. I don't think it is worth a plug nickel. Then I don't think much of the Prius either. I want all battery or battery with a small genset for the times I am not close to an outlet. A convuluted mess like Toyota has come up with for hybrids is doomed to long term failure. Too many expensive parts to go bad after the warranty is gone.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    1000lbm additional! - 67hp! ~ 60lbm/hp!!!! A mid '50s 36hp Beetle was only ~47lbm/hp (or less), all in a chasis that has earned a reputation for sloppy handling WITHOUT the additional mass! And the PHEV will only cost you about ~$37000! Such a deal!!

    Yes that's proof of concept - the concept that zealous advocates will endure and ignore all manner of problems to "prove" their preconceptions (imaginations?)
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I believe they add about 1000 lbs of Li-Ion batteries to the Prius.

    It can't be that much. These conversions are only trying to achieve around 30 miles of all electric range. For a vehicle the size of a Prius that's probably about 7 kWh. Since you wouldn't want to fully deplete the battery let's bump that up to 12 kWh. The 27 kWh NiMH battery pack on the RAV4 EV weighed just over 900 lbs. The 50 kWh Li-ion battery pack on the Tesla Roadster also weighs about 900 lbs. It's not completely linear since there is packaging involved but I've got to believe this 12 kWh Li-ion conversion battery pack is in the 300 lb range. But keep in mind that they are pulling out the 100 lb NiMH battery pack that came with the Prius so the total net weight gain is probably in the neighborhood of ~200 lbs.

    I do agree that for $12k this is ridiculous thing to do for any reason other than a science experiment.

    I don't think that CalCars is actually promoting these conversions. They are promoting the technology and trying to get major manufacturers on board, which should significantly reduce the price.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So a 200 lb battery would give them the 30 mile range at 30-40 MPH? If they keep the Prius Electronics it will only allow the battery to go to 40% at the low end and 80% on the high. So you are only using about 40% of the capacity of the battery. You would only be using about 4.8 KWH from that 12 KWH battery. With the current NiMH Prius battery the stealth range is a maximum one mile. What is the KWH rating of that battery?

    The Rav4 was full charge to full discharge IIRC.

    PS
    I think CalCars is kind of on hold. I did not see any new info on their site. Every one is waiting for a battery break through, you and I included.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I think this conversion battery pack would be more than 200 lbs but since it would be replacing an existing battery pack the net weight gain would probably be around 200 lbs.

    It's not as important with Li-ion batteries to be maintained within a tight range in terms of level of charge. I've never seen any instructions on my laptops regarding whether you should avoid keeping them plugged in or avoid letting them become completely discharged. Li-ion's weakness is in calendar life and potential instability.

    I believe the NiMH battery pack in the Prius can store 1.8 kWh and weighs 115 lbs. If it was allowed to go from full charge to full discharge that would provide around 7 miles all electric driving. Since Toyota limits the level of charge you can't go nearly that far.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do you think these conversions add new charging electronics? I don't think you can use the same for Li-Ion as NiMH. I cannot imagine tearing a $25k car apart, spending $12k on upgrades and losing a very important warranty. I would rather just convert an older vehicle to electric. A small SUV or PU with a blown engine.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Most of the EVs on the road today are the homemade jobs you describe. The whole thing can be done for under $12k if you go with lead acid batteries. I think these typically have 40-50 mile ranges. Most of them don't incorporate regenerative braking, which gets a little more complex and pricey. Still, I agree, it makes a lot more sense to go this route than to spend the same amount or more money to void the warranty on a vehicle that was already getting 45+ mpg.

    I seriously doubt that there are a lot of individuals making this conversion. I have heard that NYC is or maybe already has started converting some vehicles for city and taxi use. I also know that they fielded an experimental fleet of EV (Li-ion) converted PT Cruisers. Unfortunately this experiment didn't go too well and they've already "pulled the plug" on it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    A Euro website today showed a little blurb about Smart working on an EV model for their line of cars.

    70 mile range
    0-60 in 19.8 seconds
    Full charge costs about $2 of electricity.

    That would seem to be a perfect "first car" for a teenage boy:

    1. Safer for teens because it only seats 2 people. (data indicates that teens with three or more passengers in the car have far more accidents and higher death rates).

    2. Slow "get up and go" means he won't be burning rubber around town.

    3. Economical so that the little fellow does not spend a lot of money on "fuel."

    Looks like a possible winner if the price is low enough and warranty is good enough.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Smart diesels in Victoria were popular. I stopped into the dealer. He said they sell as fast as they come in. His Mercedes dealership had sold over 300.

    I agree with the teenagers being prime candidates. Both boys and girls.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    0-60 in 20 seconds? Not good enough.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not good enough to win races, maybe.

    But for a city kid just learning to drive and driving big city streets from home to school to the Mall, etc?

    Completely sufficent.
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    Sufficient? Hardly!

    In the rrban/suburban areas with which I've familiar, he'd either be run over by the traffic that he pulled into or be attacked by a justifyably angry mob of outraged drivers behind him. :D
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    0-60 in 20 seconds? Not good enough.

    I agree. While there's a place for this type of vehicle, IMO, it just reinforces the public perception that EVs are performance challenged, i.e. glorified golf carts. The reality is that just isn't true. For a given size and weight the electric motor can produce far more hp/torque. The Tesla Roadster's motor weighs 70 lbs and is the size of an average watermelon.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    People thinking they have to drive like a NASCAR racer everytime they drive across town.

    I am talking about a 17-yr-old driver driving on CITY streets (no freeways) to and from School Home Work TheMall Friends houses and not merging onto Major Freeways.

    Just because a car is going slower than you are is no reason to get "justifiably outraged."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Here we fully agree. I find no reason not to make vehicles for city streets only. It removes the temptation to go on the freeway. On city streets the 0-30 figure is more important. If we can get used to powered wheel chairs on the street we can get used to small electric cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I agree...0-60 in 20 seconds is DANGEROUS...having endured a Mercedes 300D, which is faster than that, I can say that trying to merge or pass on modern freeway with a car of that capacity is frightening. I think it would be a great way to get rid of a teenager you didn't like. :P

    Ditto a SMART car. That turkey has lost money everywhere in the world.

    There is no reason a PHEV has to be incompetent or clumsy.

    My two cents is that we have to look at PHEVs as a world market potential, not to be America-centric about it. In the UK it costs $81 to fill up a honda civic, and in China pollution is so bad they have a "building index", which tells you how many buildings you can see in front of you before the smog obliterates them.

    So the global need for PHEVs will be great I think, even if America doesn't "get" it or won't develop the technology. Someone else will, just like always, when it comes to automobiles. The USA hasn't been a leader in automotive tech for some time now, probably not since the 1950s. (not that they haven't pulled off the occasional nifty hat-trick).
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    You have a very dim view of the domestic auto manufacturer. My position is that they're like no other business whose reason for existing is to maximize profits.

    I personally believe that they must have some very talented people on their payrolls. I also believe that their misdeeds of the past are somewhat based upon what they thought they could get away with. That's just business and more a reflection of the incestuous relationship big business has with our government. On top of that the UAW's extortionist tactics have basically buried them for the foreseeable future.

    If GM can survive it will be comparable to pulling a rabbit out of the hat. That rabbit may be the Chevy Volt.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think most of the PHEV experimentation is in the USA. The Europeans could care less about hybrids when they have superior diesel cars. The Japanese are warming up to diesel cars after a long ban. Most of the hybrids have been sold in the US because we have no other high mileage alternatives.

    As far as the Smart car, all I have read and seen indicates it is a big sales success in Canada. We don't have a decent Smart model in the USA. Only that kluged up gas version that gets no better mileage than a Civic. The only figure I can find says they have sold 750,000 Smart cars in 8 years. I believe that rivals the Prius that has been on the World market for 10 years.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But...but....the SMART has lost money for a decade. It has never been profitable and for good reason. Selling a couple hundred cars in Canada is the same old story for SMART---a dribble of sales to people who like the freak factor. The car is such a loser it's hard to believe anyone has faith in it anymore. It's like the Avanti of micro-cars, you just can't kill it though it hasn't proven itself worthy of survival.

    I think the PHEV has a good future is what I was saying...Europeans love diesel because of the price of diesel fuel....if you could offer them the same car as a PHEV, I think they'd be tempted. True the PHEV might not be a diesel but at 100 mpg, who cares. European cities are so well suited to EVs going 35 mph and squeezing through narrow streets quietly. I think PHEVs are a natural for most of Europe (but not everywhere).

    Not denegrating American "talent", only American decisions in automaking. If the suggestion is that American automakers chose quick profit over longterm planning, I couldn't agree more.

    All the innovations (well almost all...95% of them) we enjoy today in automobiles reached production first in Europe or Japan, not here. American automakers are the least motivated to innovate and have been for decades. Were it not for foreign competition, we'd still be driving clumsy, 12 mpg carburated cars with slushy automatics or 4-speeds out of trucks....really.....American car industry is fast becoming second-rate, and I think deep down we all know that.

    Can it turn around? Sure, but don't hold your breath!

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