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Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

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Comments

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I think that California's plan to install PV systems on 1 million homes is still going forward. Its kind of interesting because the first time this proposal went to California's legislation it was held up by the union that represents electricians. Apparently they wanted some provision that required all work to be done by an expensive, unionized electrician. Well "The Terminator" figured out a way to bypass this obstacle. He went straight to the utility companies to pay for this program so it didn't need the same legislative approval.

    Some of the current government subsidies for PV install are, IMO, somewhat misguided. The global demand for PV panels is far outstripping manufacturing capacity and these subsidies are only agravating the situation. The result is that over the last 2 years the cost per watt has actually increased. The positive side is that manufacturers are increasing capacity at a rapid pace but this might have occurred even with slightly lower subsidies.

    The comment that millions of EV owners charging their batteries is going to overtax the grid is unfounded. For one thing it will probably take at least 10 years for there to even be 1 million EVs on the road. Also, the people that operate our nation's electricity grid welcome these vehicles. I don't pretend to understand how this works but apparently it creates the potential for load levelling, which has a positive impact. Not to mention your vehicle can now be an emergency back-up power supply for your home.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I don't know any details on California's PV plan.

    How are the PV systems being subsidized by the State? Also, are the PV systems being installed supposed to fill all of that homeowners needs (regular domestic use + EV) or just reduce daytime demand on the power grid.

    "Also, the people that operate our nation's electricity grid welcome these vehicles."

    I think I can understand this.

    Most recharging of EV's would occur at night. Typically, the demand to the system is currently much lower at night than during the day (when AC systems are running full blast, businesses are operating, etc.).

    Under the current system, the power plants are constantly cycling up during the day to meet the higher demands and then cycling back down to a reduced level to meet the lower nightime demands. Perhaps the plants don't operate as efficiently as they cycle up and down?

    Hadn't considered the possibility of using the EV as a back-up power supply for the house.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I don't know all the specifics regarding CA's plan but this is what I've read. The goal is 1 million homes and the projected cost is 3 billion. This will be paid partly through a utility surcharge that was scheduled to expire and also through utility savings that will occur by being being able to delay addditional power plant construction/expansion. These PV systems will be primarily grid tied in that your meter will be spinning backwards when you are generating more power than you are using. This will provide credit for when you use the grid's electricity. I don't think there is any stipulation for the home's system being able to provide all it's power needs. The rebate is probably based on the cost and capacity of whatever system you choose to install.

    One of the nice things about this program is that it is scheduled to be phased out over 10 years with the idea being that is the amount of time it will take for solar energy to be cost effective. Whether or not that ends up being the case it is positive to see government programs that aren't designed to last indefinitely.
  • prm2000prm2000 Member Posts: 17
    Dang, has anybody seen that new Tesla? That is one sexy car. I would love to drive one. I'm surprised that nobody is talking about it here!

    ;)
  • michael2003michael2003 Member Posts: 144
    Isn't there any plan in place (or being proposed) that would require the replacement (or clean up) of the old "dirty" coal plants? It seems that both the reduction of the use of gas and emissions are critical and need to occur quickly!
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Yes, this is a more general electric vehicle topic, but let's keep this autiomotive related and not go off into the various ways that electricity are generated and forget about the cars please.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    There's another thread specifically for the Tesla.

    I'd say my biggest concern regarding the Tesla and all the other EVs is how these new Li-ion batteries will hold up. I know they've done extensive testing regarding safety and number of cycles but what about aging? My understanding is that Li-ion batteries lose storage capacity purely as a function of time, regardless of whether they are even being used. I'm not sure how well you can test this in the lab and I haven't read of any breakthroughs along these lines. If the Tesla, which is advertised at 250 miles per charge, can only get 150 miles per charge after 3 years I suspect there will be some unhappy owners. I hope this doesn't turn out to be the case but I think that only time will tell.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    With all due respect - talking about HOW the electricty is generated is central to EV discussion. I thought that this topic WAS general enough to include this.

    If we can't talk about how the electricity is generated in an EV car discussion, where CAN we talk about it? Are you saying that one simply CAN'T talk about electrical production ANYWHERE ON EDMUNDS?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    If that's the case then threads involving dependency on foreign oil should also be off limits.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Re: CA's PV plan.

    Hmmm, well on the surface it certainly sounds like a reasonable plan. I'm not quite sold on PAYING for the plan through utility surcharges (in other words, millions of people who aren't seeing the benefit are subsidizing it for the other million homes who do). But, I suppose that's the nature of virtually ANY gov subsidy.

    I like having the PV system tied into the grid.

    I'm glad there's a term limit on the plan. After all the hoopla I've heard/read lately considering how PVs are supposed to get more and more cost effective, this is a good way for the industry to either put up or shut up.

    Another benefit of this plan is that should/when an EV industry starts going more mainstream, the additional power generation doesn't HAVE to be either new power plants or PV systems at the same residence as the EV.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Yes we can, as it relates to the cars. We don't want to go off into a debate about nuclear vs coal, for example, because that's really doesn't have anything to do with automotive issues.

    I know it's a very wide, very fuzzy line, but we have to keep it automotive related. The post that prompted my reminder with the question of cleaning up "dirty" coal powered plants is an example. While it's tangentially related to electric vehicles, there's not a lot in that question that has anything to do with the cars.

    All I'm saying is that we have to keep it centered on the automotive. This is not the place to go off into coal vs nuclear. Those discussion on oil dependence have the same kind of problem when they swing off into side issues that aren't in our baliwick either. ;)

    I know, clear as mud!
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    (in other words, millions of people who aren't seeing the benefit are subsidizing it for the other million homes who do)

    If this program is successful I think everyone will derive some benefit. New powerplant construction probably would have resulted in new charges. If these million PV homes generating electricity for the grid can delay this then it might be somewhat of a wash for those not taking advantage of the program. Plus it accomplishes the same load leveling that charging EVs at night would. Only it does so by adding capacity during peak usage rather than adding load during off peak. The beauty of it is that the highest peaks tend to occur on the hottest, sunniest days when these homes will generate the most electricity.
  • prm2000prm2000 Member Posts: 17
    "There's another thread specifically for the Tesla. "

    I know. That was supposed to be a joke, since they kicked us off the Tesla thread.

    That is what the icon with the blinky headlight was supposed to convey!
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I know, clear as mud!"

    Ummmm.....YES!

    I took the comment regarding 'dirty' coal-powered plants completely different. I had the impression the post was referring to upgrading older 'dirtier' coal-plants to newer, cleaner standards; not necessarily a sweeping generalization that "coal=dirty=sux".

    The problem (as I see it anyway) is that any general discussion of electric cars can either assume that EVs will ALWAYS be a tiny, dinky little niche market in which case increased electrical production simply isn't an issue....OR, that EVs will (eventually) be mainstream.

    Assuming the second scenario, we MUST have some discussion regarding where the electricity will (eventually) come from. Discussing the power production IS automotively related because the NEED for the additional power is driven (for the purposes of this thread) by future EVs.

    Believe me, I'm not TRYING to be a PITA; sometimes it just comes natural.... :blush:
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Some of these discussions simply have natural tendencies away from the automotive ;)

    I figure some early guidance, and a reminded that the topic title is Electric VEHICLES, shold help us not wander too far off.

    A bit of drift and sidebars into related topics is natural and OK, as long as we don't go completely off the reservation.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I'm not sure why I didn't pick up on that but then again I just figured out what smileys were last week.
  • prm2000prm2000 Member Posts: 17
    The earlier discussion on well-to-wheel efficiencies was based on studies relating directly to automobiles. Several of the studies were directly written or contributed to by automakers (Toyota, GM and Honda, as I recall). Nuclear vs coal (vs every other future fuel combo) is a major component of that discussion.

    It is very possible that personal transportation will take its first fundamental shift in almost 100 years (away from oil). The viability and cleanliness of the electric grid is one of two issues that will make or break a wholesale switch to electric from ICE (batteries is the other). I would vote that discussion as applicable to an auto forum.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    You seem very knowledgeable when it comes to EVs so you are probably already familar with the website evworld.com

    They've had two articles in recent weeks regarding Tesla, the inventor not the Roadster. One had to do with what they called his "Black Magic" Touring Sedan. The other his works in wireless energy transmission.

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=1062

    http://pesn.com/2006/08/03/9500295_wireless_transmission/

    I can't help wonder if there is a relationship. If this "Black Magic" car actually existed was it being powered by energy being transmitted wirelessly? If something like this is possible then battery storage capacity becomes somewhat of a non-issue. It seems not completely outside the realm of possibility.
  • prm2000prm2000 Member Posts: 17
    I look at evworld from time to time, but I had not seen those links.

    Thanks
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Tesla was clearly a genius by anyone's definition. I find his work regarding wireless energy transmission to be particularly fascinating because of the implications. I've done some web searches trying to find out if any major studies have been done to definitively prove or disprove his claims. I can't seem to find anything.

    http://www.teslatech.info/ttmagazine/v1n4/valone.htm

    BTW, this really is relevant when it comes to the discussion of EVs, pros and cons, because the biggest con involves the limitations of the power supply for the electric motors.
  • michael2003michael2003 Member Posts: 144
    Thanks for the links. Very interesting, but I doubt that there is sufficient imagination/acceptance in the general population to embrace a technology that would make seemingly pollution free energy available for our transportation needs. :(

    While reading the articles I kept feeling like there was a shoe hanging somewhere that was about to drop. I can understand not having faith in a technology if no-one can explain the downside (negative results). What I don't understand is why we haven't allowed any large scale testing that would sufficiently prove that the technology does or does not work. After all, the technology either does work or it doesn't. There shouldn't be so much controversy that people without any special interest would actively work against trying something new. It seems unconscionable that we must rely on other countries to lead the way when the US has the greater need and would reap the greatest benefits!
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I think you're right and I'm definitely not holding my breath waiting for this type of technology. I do however wish that more research would be done on the university level. I'm just extremely curious as to whether or not something like this is really technically feasible. One of the major drawbacks of solar energy is that its only available when the sun is shining. The sun is always shining on some part of the planet. A global electric grid with almost zero transmission loss does seem almost too good to be true.
  • michael2003michael2003 Member Posts: 144
    Maybe someone could get Mr. B. Gates to start up a new business whereby he would provide the power generation and sell us the antenna's, to supplement the power provided to our home. It would seem to be a more stable means of providing power than solar or wind and be just as pollution free. I would be willing to pay my utility bills in this manner in order to justify the purchase of an electric vehicle.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    ...already exists and is being used today in at least one form I can think of off the top of my head.

    It's called microwaves.

    And it's perfectly safe at low power levels, but tends to FRY things when jacked up to the levels needed to transmit power to run EVs.
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    The U.S. Army was actively involved in wireless transmission of energy to destroy things in the form of "electromagnetic pulses". They even had a guy with a home-made device on 20-20 of some other news program show how it can disrupt an automobile engine.

    Conversion of wireless energy into useful work will probably occur right after we can successfully convert a Kansas tornado into useful work. Money would probably be better spent on superconductors or something with a known history of limited success.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Conversion of wireless energy into useful work will probably occur right after we can successfully convert a Kansas tornado into useful work."

    Agreed. We may as well wish for the ability to suck all the naturally occuring electrical energy out of the atmosphere for useful work.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    These comments lead me to believe that you didn't actually read the links. I don't blame you, the articles were pretty long. I'll try to encapsulate. Tesla was not talking about some magical free energy in the environment. What he was stating is that there is this space between the earth and ionosphere that is a natural, efficient conduit of energy. Far more efficient than the copper wires we use today. The problem seems to be, how do you market or sell energy once you've put it into this global space?

    This has nothing to do with microwaves or harnessing tornadoes. It may very well be bogus science. However, Tesla's credentials should afford him the benefit of further research.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    Hopefully this should be an interesting topic. Here's an article from 2004 talking about Chinese plans to develop EVs:
    *
    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6290392/
    *
    Basically, the Chinese haven't much choice. They know there won't be enough oil to go around.
    *
    Right around that time, I remember noticing that some Chinese Lithium-Ion batteries were becoming available to EV hobbyists like me (I drive a very old electric car.)
    *
    Well, I just looked again this week, and these batteries have gotten really good, and really cheap. Check out this link:
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    http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
    *
    If you look at the comparison chart on that page, they are claiming 1100 charge cycles (twice as good as the batteries in the Tesla) and a price/watt comparable to old-fashioned lead-acid batteries. That would put a 200-mile range battery pack somewhere around $5000. That is CHEAP, folks. 200 miles times 1100 charges means a 220,000 mile battery life!
    *
    As to where this is leading, I found this Chinese electric car, boasting 'breakthrough Chinese Lithium-ion technology' apparently about to be imported to the US:
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    http://www.milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html
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    It gets 200 miles to the charge, 80mph top speed, and an MSRP of $28500. Once the importer gets his certification and crash testing paid for, it's my guess that this car can get VERY cheap. Other Chinese EVs will doubtless follow.
    *
    The next question: Is this even on Detroit's radar? Should it be?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I think we will see EVs being imported by countries like China and India. As far as the established auto industry goes they are not part of the status quo. I also doubt that they are as influenced by the oil industry. Detroit realizes that it will take many years before these EVs make up even 1 percent of the vehicles on the road. So they will choose to ignore them for as long as possible.

    The claims by that battery manufacturer are almost too good to be true. I'm a big proponent of EVs so when I hear about these battery breakthroughs I very much want to believe them. The thing is I've been hearing these amazing claims for the past few years and have yet to see any real world applications. I'll remain optimistic but with some degree of skepticism until I see the actual product with its capabilities verified.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    I agree that the Thundersky batteries seem too good... but this is one step up from the typical vaporware, because they are definitely for sale, ostensibly at the price they tout on that chart. The capacity and charge cycle claims will eventually be verified by the buyers. But even conventional Li-Ion performance at that price is pretty noteworthy.
    *
    Here's someone who has been using the Thunder Sky lithium batteries for a year (not sure if it is exactly the same product as what they are selling now):
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    http://www.speedace.info/lithium_ion_electric_car.htm
    *
    Another entry in the 'interesting battery technology' department is Firefly Energy. They have a new take on the old lead-acid battery that gives it NIMH-like performance at a lead-acid price:
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    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/firefly_energy_.html
    *
    This one could turn out to be vapor, but I hope not - I like it.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Interesting article on the "Jester". It all sounds very credible. Do you know how much this battery pack weighed? The other question I have is in regards to the date, February 2004. When I did a websearch on these batteries most of the information was from around this same time. I'm a little curious, why no new developments in the last 2+ years?

    That firefly article was also interesting. 170 watt hours per kilogram is better than the NiMH batteries currently being used in hybrids. In the Toyota RAV4 EV the 28 kWh battery pack weighed a little over 900 lbs. Using batteries with this technology the weight would be less than 400 lbs.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    The Chinese Thunder Sky Li-Ion batteries have been available for a few years to EV builders, but looking at the recent specs, it seems they have tweaked the performance lately. The low price is definitely something new. I'll be looking a putting them into my own EV at the next battery change. The only rub is the charging system. Lead-acid batteries are real easy to charge, but Li-Ion are very finicky - and dangerous - if charged incorrectly.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Apparently there is going to be a whole fleet of Thunder Sky powered electric buses transporting spectators at the 2008 Beijing Olympics. That should generate some good publicity for the technology. China is clearly placing a greater emphasis on EVs than the US is. Just one more thing for us to import.

    I don't currently drive an EV but have made up my mind that my next car will be electric. I also plan on having a solar charging station. It won't be cheap or cost effective but at least I'll feel like I am no longer part of the problem. Not every decision has to be justified in terms of dollars and cents. For instance, I spend thousands of dollars every year on taking a vacation. Hardly a good investment from a financial perspective but still worth every penny.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Well, guilt can be a powerful motivator, I guess... :P

    Vacations, for their restorative powers, have been shown in thousands of studies to actually be more than "cost-effective" and one of the factors crucial to good work performance. That is why most major corporations require employees to take them.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://www.reliableplant.com/article.asp?pagetitle=LTC%20pushing%20envelope%20on- %20lithium-ion%20battery%20technology&articleid=2333

    If these guys get their battery in an EV, it would be a good thing. 60 MPG and 60 miles per charge.

    Automotive application

    LTC currently offers a battery system that powers an hybrid electric vehicle up to 50 miles per gallon. The company is constantly developing new innovations enabling their technology to break into the next frontier.

    A leading contender in the hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) race, LTC is working in conjunction with an automotive manufacturer to develop a high-power battery management system designed to run a four-passenger HEV capable of 60 MPG, with a range of 60 MPC in electrical mode with zero emissions. This will be the furthest distance traveled by standard production line vehicle.

    "The HEV battery will produce 12 kWh, which is about 100 percent more than what is on the market today for a comparable size battery," said Brandt.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Maybe taking vacations wasn't the best example. My point is that we all spend money on things for personal reasons other than whether or not its a good financial investment. In my case I don't think that it is so much guilt as it is a resentment of the firmly entrenched, government protected special interests. So while some people might protest by spending their time and parading around with a sign I will protest by spending my money on a disruptive technology.
  • gypsy_techgypsy_tech Member Posts: 15
    I have been reading about the latest battery technology and was wondering if anyone knew how much the battery weighed in the last version of GM's EV1. According to the blog's http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/nimhtest/ghanssen.htm and movie Who Killed The Electric Car it seams that it was able to go over 100 miles on a charge at normal speeds.
    I am considering building an EV and am looking for the most practical power source.
    And to the writer who seams to think California wasn't ready for an EV a lot of EV1 owners would beg to differ.
    http://ev1-club.power.net/
    Thanks;
  • john500john500 Member Posts: 409
    Chevron bought out a large portion of GM's stake in Stan Ovshinsky's battery company. The name of the battery company is now Cobasys (www.cobasys.com, formery Texaco Ovonic). I would start there to see what is available.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The EV1's battery pack weighed 1,147 lbs and stored 26.4 kWh of energy. These batteries were manufactured by Ovonics, which is now Cobasys. For comparison the battery pack in Toyota's RAV4 EV weighed 200 lbs less yet stored an extra kWh of energy. These batteries were made by Panasonic. Panasonic is no longer allowed to manufacture these batteries. See what Wikipedia has to say about this under "incentives, quotas, and patent control in the US" at the following link.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Dell just announced it is recalling 4 million laptop batteries. These are Li-ion batteries that have had a few reported cases of overheating with the potential to cause fire. I'm very concerned about the implications for BEVs given that Li-ion technology is what is supposed to allow electric vehicles to approach mainstream acceptance. Maybe there are no real safety issues but if the public starts equating Li-ion batteries to something that might catch fire it will definitely be negative from a PR perspective. It might also result in government agencies being slow to certify new EVs, which will play right into the hands of those that want to maintain the status quo.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    There's a number of interesting batteries under development - but the most exciting battery actually available right now is the Thunder Sky lithium, from China:
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    http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
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    EV hobbyists have been able to experiment with versions of the Thunder Sky batteries for a few years now - but I think the low price is new. If you look at the chart on that page, the batteries now have a price per watt comparable to old-fashioned lead-acid batteries. If the data on the chart is correct, you could build a 200-mile range pack for somewhere around $5000 (not including charging and battery management, which could up the price a bit.) With an 1100 charge lifetime, that's a pack life of 220,000 miles!
    *
    I don't have direct experience with these; but I know that charging Li-Ion batteries has to be done correctly, otherwise they can be dangerous. I'm pretty sure the Thunder Sky batteries are in this car, which will be imported here next year.:
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    http://www.milesautomotive.com/products_xs200.html
  • gypsy_techgypsy_tech Member Posts: 15
    Thanks to all. I did see the post earlier about the Thunder Sky Lithium but wanted something to compare it with. The size of vehicle I am planning is small so any of these would give me my targeted range. I just needed the weight data so I could get the right springs and such. I am also interested in some of the new super capacitors being developed. I believe they would help in storing charge generated during breaking. The solar racing teams have used cap's for years to save more of the energy created during breaking. Thanks again.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    The most anticipated supercapacitors are the ones from eestor:

    http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/eestor_ultracap.html
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Those claims are certainly impressive. What I'd like is that instead of press releases or web postings regarding a certain technology's capability these companies would actually build a prototype and slap it in a car. An real world demonstration of what this ultracapacitor could do.

    In this particular case I am more than a little skeptical. I've recently read about cutting edge research coming out of MIT involving nanotechnology that allows greater surface area in ultracapacitors. In the lab they still haven't come all that close to achieving the energy storage capacity of a battery. The people involved do however think it is possible but probably 10 years off.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    Well , I went looking for some more recent news about EESTOR. The newest press releases are from back in April. Supposedly, a couple of prototype cars were shown off. Here's a link:

    http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/3/29/1849708.html

    From the press release:

    "This is a very sophisticated electric car, with 250 to 300 miles of range,” Richard Weir, CEO, president and co-founder of EEStor said. “It’ll take a full electrical charge in about the time it takes to gas up a regular car. Just plug it up for a few minutes and you’re off.” ... “This is just a preview of what’s to come. We have another major announcement for May. But seeing is believing!” he said."

    Indeed. May has come and gone. Where's the follow-up announcement?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I very much want to believe these stories. If true say goodbye to the ICE.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "It’ll take a full electrical charge in about the time it takes to gas up a regular car."

    WHAT????

    I'm not an electrical engineer but just out of curiousity, how many kW would be expended driving 250 miles? Now, what would the voltage and amperage need to be for the recharging station to dump THAT MUCH electrical energy back into the batteries in just a few minutes? I mean, the electrical energy needed to move a 2000 lb. vehicle at highway speeds for 250 miles is NOT a piddling amount of energy. And we're talking about dumping that amount of energy into a battery in just a few minutes?
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    LOL!!

    Yeah, 300 miles, 55 MPH, lots of coasting.... no AC, no nothing. :P

    I too shall join the waiting.
  • apeweekapeweek Member Posts: 133
    The EEStor pack they are talking about holds about 50KWH, I believe, and it holds its charge at about 3500 volts. So yes, this is a large amount of energy to transfer in a few minutes, but do-able. If the energy is transferred at 3500 volts, that would translate to about 140 amps for six minutes. That could even be handled with 2/0 wiring, which is about as big around as a finger ( 2/0 wiring is commonly used in EV battery packs.)

    Granted, you would not be doing this at home! Charging at home would still take a few hours.

    50KWH is about the size battery pack you would use to get a driving range of about 200 miles at 75mph.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Well, perhaps, but as I said, running absolutely nothing else. When I spend money on a car, I want AC, lots of toys, and especially electric seats, etc.

    That's just my personal preference. I realize there are many who prefer the rustic, spartan life..... ;)
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