Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Recharge Prius at Home on AC power?
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has information on recharging Prius batteries to full charge at home using AC power, but WITHOUT changing the battery set.
The idea is simple. Prius batteries are allowed to run lower than full charge to optimize fuel use. At your house electricity is cheaper than gas, so charging your car is cheaper than using the car as a generator to recharge it.
Should be pretty simple, and boost mileage a bit.
Any thoughts?
John
I was wondering if anyone has information on recharging Prius batteries to full charge at home using AC power, but WITHOUT changing the battery set.
The idea is simple. Prius batteries are allowed to run lower than full charge to optimize fuel use. At your house electricity is cheaper than gas, so charging your car is cheaper than using the car as a generator to recharge it.
Should be pretty simple, and boost mileage a bit.
Any thoughts?
John
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
LithIon batteries are dangerous to re-charge @ home, and the car isn't designed to do that on purpose. You did not purchase an electric vehicle, but a hybrid. There is a BIG difference.
You could have saved yourself thousands of dollars and bought a golf cart if you wanted an electric car. :P
The prius is not made to run on electric other than backing up and starting the trip. It is made and designed to work with its ICE gasoline engine.
Also, both of those battery materials are commonly purchased at any store in all sizes.
Lithium Ion is not especially dangerous, if properly charged, and heat is monitored. Standard NiMH consumer grade (AA type) batteries can be recharged usually with similar or the same circuits that recharge NiCad batteries.
I don't know if it's feasible, but I wonder if it would be possible to charge the vehicle through the 12V port while the car is "powered on". This might cause it to use the built in charge controller.
John
The Prius is not made to run on electricity other than backing up and starting the trip. It is made and designed to work with its ICE engine. :P
As far as Li-Ion batteries being safe. They have critical parameters that have to be followed or they can become dangerous. Ask the 4.1 million Dell laptop owners with Sony Li-Ion batteries being recalled.
I'm just thinking since the Prius doesn't top off the batteries, because then it'll have no room to use things like regenerative braking, it might be good to fully charge it at night, and then the first mile or so could be on batteries since I live in a residential area, where I have many turns, and must go slow speeds.
It wouldn't be much, but I figured if it was easy to do once I park in my garage, it would be a little extra every day.
Basically, the way I see it. If you don't introduce outside power, all the power that goes into the batteries comes (at some point) from gasoline. If you put some power in from the outside, it won't need to charge the batteries.
I'm not looking to replace the batteries, or make an all electric vehicle. I *was* thinking I could plug it in, recharge it at night, and get cheap costs on the next mile or two worth of driving.
This is not crucial, as 45-60mpg, you are starting to split hairs when you don't have a daily commute (although I'm 20 miles from any well-known stores).
What you have to realize is the current car is a "system". All parts are interrelated. The system is designed to maintain the "traction battery" between 30 and 70% charge. There are several reasons for this:
1. Stopping charging at 70% allows "headroom" to recover kinetic energy via regenerative braking - accounting for about 20% of the fuel savings the car manages. If the battery ends up with too much charge the system will "dump" the energy - resulting in poorer mileage.
2. Keeping the traction battery between 30 and 70% charge lengthens battery life - a lot. When you charge a NiMH battery above 70% charge it starts to convert a lot of the charge energy to heat - and that is the enemy of most batteries and this type in particular. That's why most "rapid chargers" you can find shut down "rapid charge" mode at 70-80% charge and switch to "trickle charge" mode. If you get them too hot they will vent gas and electrolyte - and very little of that will leave them as dead weight.
3. If you try to run on battery power only it will take you a few miles. It's a "small" battery in the world of electric cars. Charging it to full would add perhaps one or two miles to its' range. Not really worth it considering the down side - shortened life.
What some have done is increase the battery size by adding another in parallel. This allows more energy to be stored and a longer range on electric mode (search for EV switch), making electric mode almost practical for short runs for groceries, for example. The extra battery capacity also allows capture of more kinetic energy via regenerative braking. This has reportedly improved mileage into the 100 MPG range. It has also added weight - about 70-80 lbs for the extra battery, and loss of some cargo room.
Generally you wouldn't want to parallel batteries, as one tends to get overcharged and the other undercharged - not the best situation for battery life, but because the Prius operates the battery in the 30-70% charge range this doesn't seem to cause problems.
The rumour is the 2008 Prius will have home charging capability and a larger capacity battery - perhaps a lithium ion type to decrease weight and volume. We shall see.
If you ignore the price of conversion, that is lunacy. If you consider the real-world, not the fantasy one that may come someday, conversion and electricity is hugely more expensive than gas. The future will most likely belong to Hydrogen, not some fantasy battery that is light weight and powers a Navigator!
You are hugely wrong. Most Americans right now are spending around $2000 per year on gas. The cost of using electricity would be roughly a third of that. With savings of $1300 per year you can pay for a lot of conversion. The cost of additional battery capacity would be considerably less expensive if the car was originally manufactured that way rather than having to be converted.
If you really did spend $2000/yr in gas while driving a Prius, you would be driving at least about 30k miles/yr if you only got 45mpg, at 60mpg, you'd be driving 40k miles/yr.
At that point, maybe it's better to spend money on comfort, because you are saving, bed, and housing costs, because you probably *live* in your Prius.
Are you prepared to day it costs the United States nothing in resources to generate that electricity for you, no matter what you pay for it? What about the secondary generation pollution? :surprise:
In most areas of the country, producers can barely keep pace with current demand, let along adding hundreds of thousands plugging in high-voltage chargers.
If the idea is one of saving resources, in total, rather than the selfish interests of just one or two users, one must look at everything.
While you are obviously, and laudably committed to alternative energy, please understand that MOST users will not be willing to keep their speed down below 50MPH, not run their air conditioning and all the other electronics they have grown used to. Not to mention the rather limited cruising range, and the hassle of plugging in, or for that matter, finding a place to do so.
Most using Hybrids today should be doing so to make a statement, not seeking "savings".
I view it more as offering financial encouragement to the auto companies to stick with alternative fuel development, and don't make a game of coasting, driving very slowly, not running the AC, etc.
If one wants to actually save resources and their cost of transportation, currently one would be far better off buying any car with excellent gas mileage than a hybrid.
No special high voltage charger is needed. A standard 110v home outlet will suffice. I'm guessing the process of plugging in will be less than 30 seconds, not much of a hassle. That time is probably more than offset by the time saved in fewer stops to the gas station.
If the recharging is done at night it is beneficial to the utilities due to load levelling. At least that's what the people that run these utilities say and they embrace PHEVs.
You don't need to drive below 50 mph. Even at speeds above that some of your propulsion is from the electric motors.
Around 55% of the electricity in this country is generated by burning coal, which probably is as dirty as burning gasoline. The rest is considerable cleaner. So 55% of the time you are polluting as much as the gas burner, the rest of the time you are not. Still a big improvement and we don't have to import coal.
Most of us live in the real world, and cannot rely on what might be, or could be. You have a lot of "ifs" in your theories. You received a good answer as to why re charging and topping off the battery is bad, so nothing more needs to be said on that score.
Good luck in your modifications!
That said, I see no problems with the enviro-statement, or reducing gasoline consuomtion. (there is still pollution from the power plant used to make electricity though).
Buy the charger, charge it to 70% and let us know what the result is.
Go have a good look at one.
First, on the outside, it's about the same size as a Corolla, as you compared it to. On the inside it's about the same size as a Camry. Check the specs. Same cargo capacity, same passenger room (within 0.5 cu ft).
The Prius will go about 130% farther on a gallon (or litre) of gas. Maybe more, if driven "correctly". Don't accuse me of comparing the mileage of the "highmilers", I'm just looking at what posters to this and other forums are claiming. Even if you tried to "highmile" a Corolla, you wouldn't increase mileage more than about 20% - the Prius can and does much better than 50% increase when driven that way.
Much of the appeal, for me, anyway, is the car is "electronic". It even has an "on/off" switch! Cool technology.
My friend keeps saying it's too expensive compared to "normal" cars. What "normal" cars? If we compare to cars with equivalent usable space, such as the Camry, the cost is about the same. In fact, owners of both cars report when they go to pick up "goods", they take the Prius. When they go on long trips, they take the Camry. They say they can get a lot more into the Prius, even though on paper they are about the same size space wise.
The cost of ownership appears to be much less. Currently resale value is phenomenal.
It's just cool technology. Further incentive is the perception that Prius drivers must be environmentally responsible.
Of course, if none of this turns your crank, then it's obviously not the car for you.
Run on electricity
could charge while they drive on the freeway
Have small battery for say 20 miles independent driving.
Charge at work, store, home, and solar panels.
One hops in the car, drives to the freeway, plugs in the slot, reads a book, 30miles later gets out of the slot, drives 5 miles to work on local roads.
A computer on the car could calculate electricity usage and you could pull into a station once a month to pay your bill.
what do you think?
Here's my point and I'm sure you've heard it before. If instead of my Corolla I had been driving a 15 mpg SUV that could have gotten 18 mpg with hybrid technology the dollar savings would have been $470, around 30% greater. So I guess the message is that people who drive trucks really don't care all that much about mileage to begin with, which is why they haven't embraced hybrid technology even though from a dollars and cents perspective they'd be the biggest beneficiaries.
The improved efficiency comes from:
1. Use of regenerative braking to recover ordinarily lost energy.
2. Because of the power plant design, it can shut down the "ICE" (internal combustion engine) when it's not needed to provide power.
3. Because of the presence of the MG (motor generator) to enhance power, the ICE could be designed to optimize efficiency (atkinson cycle - lower power output).
4. Use of a CVT (continuously variable transmission) to optimize the output of the ICE.
Recharging to 70% is fine for me.
Any ideas/links to find the charger for sale?
To be clear, people keep talking about electric vehicles, or modifications. I *do not* want to modify my prius, nor try to drive it as an electric car. I just thought it would be nice to drive the first mile or two each trip on electricity, since I must maintain slow speeds (~25mph) for about 4 miles anyway.
For people who get on some rant about switching from one form of pollution to another, perhaps this is not really a good forum to rant in, since a Prius is a small car, and you would charge at night, I don't think it would "load down" our power grids. I'm also not looking to drive more than a few miles on electric.
If someone comes up with a way for $500-$800 or so to drive 10 miles on electric at <35mph which goes into the Prius, even if it is fully house charged, I'd be interested, but so far everything I've seen is $3k-$12.5k which is not appealing in the least.
John
LOL the selling point of Hybrids is that they have high gas mileage and therefore it is implied they save money!
However, if you look at objective reviews on mileage measurements even the mileage savings is suspect.
Cheers,
MidCow
You have two threads that appear to be the same. May be they should be combined.
Look at thread "Plug-in Hybrids"
Cheers and Power-On'
MidCow
If more SUV's, cars and trucks were diesels, they would get better EPA ratings, and put out fewer emmisions, people will just have to deal with the smell of the fuel itself, as the tail pipe smell is gone now from the new diesels.
The Camry has over 5% more passenger volume and over 4% more cargo space.
You should have stuck with the "about" the same size.....
... NOX, might not be the worse thing to breath, as compared to CO, HC and particulate but creates the BROWN haze and receives the most attention. I am for clean air but I think exhasut gas recirculation is not the way to obtain it. For one thing in a big truck it takes fifteen more horsepower to drive the fan with an EGR system. This is a big problem for thirty years because CARB and EPA measure exhaust gas quality and NOT quantity. Not to mention that many of these EGR systems are failure prone a few years down the road. I believe that air quality will follow fuel efficiency.
On our drive, I averaged between 90 - 110 mph with plenty of runs up to 120mph (and I was getting passed liked crazy) and still pulled over 40 miles to the gallon (I had to convert from metric, etc). That car is rated at 50mpg highway, and I'm sure it would get it at legal U.S. speeds. They have an even smaller diesel that is rated at 60mpg. BMW is also making changes this year to improve the hp rating 10 - 15% but still increase mileage 15%, so the 1 series will be even better. All this without any hybrid technology. Oh, and they meet all tier 2 emission requirements quite handely. It's definitely a "consumer perception" issue, in this country, regarding diesel power and it's performance, cleanlyness, etc.
The car had some kind of failure, so he towed it to the dealer.
This is what he told me:
The lights do come on the computers
> are all energized. It gives an error code that the Toyota
> mechanic says indicates the main battery. It is a different
> code than what it gave when the inverter was bad. It will
> not start since the electric motor is the starter also. Yes
> I am sure that you can replace the main battery(which is
> called the traction battery by Toyota) and it should be
> fine. The mechanic at Toyota said that he thought that the
> battery that is in it would be ok if it were charged. I am
> just relating what I have been told. I really do not know
> anything about these cars. You are welcome to look at it for
> yourself. I am sure if you know about these cars you can fix
> it but I do not know how. The mechanic who did some of the
> work on it was going to buy it but he has lost his job and
> moved out of state.
Let me know what you guys think about this car. I think it has been sitting for about a year.
ANY advice would be wonderful and helpful!
Thanks
Ryan
PS I really want one of these I just can't afford a new one!
When I think of these Hybrids I immediately think of the childrens game where there are 11 kids and 10 chairs. Ring around the ROSEY is what we called it. Whoever is left holding the car when the battery needs replacing is in trouble.
I owned one for 3 years before upgrading, then recently upgrading again.
The 2001 was really nice. Not sure what the "poor" judgement was in comparison to. Performance was fine (never any trouble merging) and mileage was too (45.4 MPG average for 59,827 miles).
.
42 MPH is the threshold for the models thru 2009.
46 MPH for the 2010.
62.1 MPH (100 km/h) for the plug-in.
.
When all you really need, seem to need, is a horse trailer and the ability to tow it.
Most any 3000# vehicle can do that quite handily.
"...If more....were diesels.."
Exactly where gasoline engine technology is "taking" us, gasoline engines that run in diesel, compression ignition, mode part of the time.
That depends on the level of investment, purchase price, and the miles already driven.
Not really much different, "investment wise" from having to refill the gas tank once it has been drained, or overhauling the engine once the need arises, or even needing a new set of tires.
"...block heater.." "..electric would kick in.."
Not so much as the electric kicking in as the ICE more quickly shutting down. Quick ICE shutdown due to the ECU thinking the short ICE operation was sufficient to have raised the calatyst to operational temperature, ~800F.
More likely than otherwise, It wasn't.
Use of the block heater to preheat the engine, ONLY the engine, FOOLS the control ECU into thinking the catalyst has been raised to operational temperature when in reality it isn't.
Thoughtlessness on the part of the dealer if so.
The TRADITIONAL, historical, use of a block heaters was/is RARE and for use ONLY on extremely COLD nights such as one might encounter in MT, ND, or AK.
If the HSD block heater were to be used as above the manufacturer's thinking might be all well and good. It might have never occurred to the factory engineers that a block heater might be "abused" in the manner many now seem to be doing.
I have been in AK at times when even a block heater wasn't sufficient to allow you to start the car and simply drive away. The power stearing fluid was often frozen/congealed so I would go out and start the car for pre-warming and then go back in and have breakfast.
Do your own qualifying.
With the block heater NOT being used to preheat the ICE the ICE will run for an extended period before allowing electric only mode.
When the block heater is used to preheat the ICE it shuts off much earlier.
Absent the need for the ICE to run to recharge the battery, which is clearly not always the case, what other reason is there for running the ICE for an extended period...??
Passenger heat/comfort...?? Then it wouldn't do that on a hot day and it clearly does,
And...
Known FACT, WELL known fact. Most new cars will not shift into OD until you drive 3-5 miles and the catalyst is heated to operational temperature.
You do the "math".