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2008 Pontiac G8

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    I am talking no loaners most of the time. It's just at a lower level overall.

    Considering my wife's Denali's 8-10 warranty repairs over 5 years, only 2 loaners were available when they had it 5 days to figure out the MAP sensor was bad.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rjlaerorjlaero Posts: 659
    The problem with American cars is that they do tend to feel "beat" after 3/4 years of driving. Pieces start coming off and the car just doesn't feel as "tight" as day one.

    You can get into a 5 year old Audi or BMW and the car still feels fresh and not like it's worn out. On the down side, that's when a German car really begins to become very expensive to maintain and repair out of warranty if anything goes wrong.

    No matter how you slice it, the G8 is a fine car and looks to be an excellent value.

    It's one of the best looking and put together Pontiacs that's ever been made.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    It's one of the best looking and put together Pontiacs that's ever been made...and is the only car that is interesting in the GM stable.

    OK, the CTS and Malibu also. But the G8 is not US made. Perhaps it won't fall apart in 6 years.

    Regards,
    OW
  • athensathens Posts: 25
    In Australia, the G8 - Holden Commodore's home market, the Commodore competes with Ford Falcons, Nissan Maximas, and Toyota Aurions. Only the Fords and Holdens have RWD. The Commodore has been marketed in SE Asia as the Chevy Lumina!! The Commodores are not targeted at BMWs, Mercs, or Lexus.

    The comparison of the Holden/ Pontiac G8 to luxury brands is as valid as having compared a Taurus SHO or Impala SS (Caprice) to a then Bimmer or Benz in the early to mid 1990s. Sure the SHO or Impala SS were faster than the BMW offerings then (except M or AMG cars) and for half the money. But look where those same cars were in overall value 10 years later. How many mid 1990s SHO and Impala SS do you still see on the road. Early 1990 M3s are commanding upwards of
    60% of their prices just for road racing purposes. Their motors are indestructible.

    Real value to consumers is not just about performance test data. It's about perceived value for the money. When the average professional has to work 80 hour work weeks to draw a big salary to pay cash for the $35K plus car, he wants as car that is timeless, well built, offers excellent service accommodations, and will hold its resale values. At the G8 price point, the G8 will have to struggle to compete with the Acura TL and Infiniti with the G35. These products have been well received by that market.

    In 1985 an entry level BMW 3 series was priced at about $20K in the US. By comparison, an entry level Pontiac Grand Am (now the G6) was priced at $8000!!!

    What niche, up-scale heritage does Holden/ Pontiac have to offer to entry level luxury car buyer in the US. The Sunbird? Grand Am? The AZTEK???

    What recent ground breaking automotive technology has Holden,/ Pontiac developed that has been licensed to other car manufacturers? Where is direct injection, regenerative braking, staged twin turbocharging, active anti-roll bars management, brake drying in the Pontiac Holden line? BMW develops this technology and will license it to GM.

    It's BMW's reputation for over-engineering, for top quality, for producing cars without compromise with reason of affordability that has increased their annual US sales from 60,000 annually in 1993 to more than 200,000 per year in the US. Pontiac barely sells over 350,000 products a year, down from more than 600,000 per year in the mid 1980s!!!!

    Pontiac needs Oprah Winfrey to push their products. BMW needs only put its product in a showroom, despite the Bangle bustles, and they sell all by themselves with 5% cash discounts.

    If $60K is a lot to digest for a new BMW 550i, which it undeniably is, then the better value is a certified pre-owned 3 year old 545i, off a lease, with low miles, that sells for about - you guessed it $35,000. In the long term probably a much better value than a new G8.
  • wideglidewideglide Posts: 146
    I think there is still a good bit of that old Detroit mentality present. GM is used to the majority of their car buyers - especially sedans - thinking of cars merely as appliances to go from point A to point B. This car is not aimed at those buyers. The G8 is aimed at a much more sophisticated buyer, and cheap plastics (this seems to have been addressed somewhat), and typical Big Three service experiences are not going to cut it with these type of customers. Nor will rapid depreciation.

    As for the regular/premium issue, running regular will result in the ECM retarding the timing to prevent detonation, which degrades performance. All the magazines obtained their numbers using premium gas.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    These are good points. The CTS is the first real try at a more sophisticated clientèle. MAP add-ons are not going to cut it...that will alienate both the premium buyer looking for value as well as the loyal customer that typically buys Grand Prix. I was one of the loyal ones back in 2004 when the GTO had the same mark-up. I would have seriously considered the Goat. Instead, I paid $2K less for a loaded 2003 Lincoln LS V-8 leftover.

    The G8 I test drove is still sitting at the local dealer with that $3K markup on the window. So, thats 1 week and the only G8 Base they have left (they had 2 GT's that sold) is not moving. I assume they made their $6K from the "gotta have it first" kids.

    I rest my case.

    Regards,
    OW
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Hmm, I guess I'm just used to a significantly higher level of cars than both a Pontiac, Denali, or BMW....

    I have collectively put about 300,000 miles on my Nissan Armada, Subaru Legacy GT, Subaru SVX, Subaru Legacy (1994) and Nissan 240sx (1990 w/250k miles on it currently) and I've not had any of them collectively in for repairs more than 1x or 2x in the last 4 years. I expect any new car to not have me in the dealer at all for the first 100,000 miles be it Pontiac or BMW, so loaners should not be an issue.

    As for "MAP" that will be going away very quickly. Especially as we hit the end of the year, RWD, Snow/winter, and the economy continues to tank. I fully expect to pay no more than $28k for a Fully Loaded G8 GT w/Moonroof and Sport Package.

    Handling I realize won't be up there with my 05 LGT Wagon w/5mt but I also don't expect it to be up to the handling of that car. First anyone who is whining that the G8 is not a "cayon carver" or a "sporty handling vehicle", I gotta ask, are you driving an automatic transmission vehicle? If so, then you are only kidding yourself. That's why for me a 4000lb vehicle with an Automatic, can have a little less "performance". You can't have your cake and eat it too...

    Cost
    Size
    Handling
    Speed

    With infinite $$$ you can have infinite size, handling and speed. Unfortunately most of us don't have infinite $$$ so we must compromise on Size, Handling or Speed.

    Put it this way, for $28k, I'm not going to find a sedan that can fit 4 Paesanos in the car, 2 bodies in the trunk and do 0-60 in 5.3 seconds or handle as well. ;)

    The 3-series is a great car, but I would not want to try to put 4 Paesanos in there and 2 bodies in the trunk, things would get pretty crowded in there. :)

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Locally here, none of my local dealers have MAP and I fully expect to pay about 28-29k by the end of the year.

    -mike
  • usbritusbrit Posts: 1
    Why do people rave on about their BMW's. If you ask the question "what's it like in the wet & snow" and they all say horrible, drive the wife's G35X or something similiar. Why then buy a car when you cannot drive it all the time. Yes the are well made and drive great in anything but heavy rain or snow, but sorry I want a car that drive great all the time. In a past life I also had a BMW and swore never again. Good seat though.
  • vierahalvierahal Posts: 1
    I'm 61 with 3 Corvettes, a Cadillac DTS, a supercharged 1993 Mustang GT. I just paid MSRP for a 2008 G8 GT for my wife. She loves it!!! I love it. Watch out MB and BMW. GM has this one almost perfect, but I will wait for the GXP version for me.

    GM please:
    - add memory seats
    - XM radio
    - chrome wheel option ( I will change out this week)
    - supercharge the v-6.
  • athensathens Posts: 25
    You must be speaking of BMW's prior to VDC and DTSC both technologies which BMW co-developed with Bosch.

    My Mom picked up a 328i last year (after a 14 year stint with a 318is). Without available all-wheel drive (iX option). I can assure you her 328i does much better in the snow that my Infiniti G35 coupe with all season touring tires in the snow. This after a brutal Chicago winter. My folks driveway has a 25 degree incline which the BMW climbs with ease in ice/ snow. My G35 requires some finesse to get traction on the least of ice/ snow to get up the driveway. She test drove the standard G35 and she found it had less ride compliance. I have driven the G35 sedan as loaner vehicle on occasion and must say I have to agree with her assessment. It's simply a matter of preference. BMW does offer a ride/ handling compromise which has endeared itself to millions of fans world-wide.

    Of course I have little doubt that a G35x would do well in adverse weather.

    This is the point: how many people do you know that drive Infiniti Q45s or J30s from the mid 1990s or earlier? How much value do you think the few of those have.

    My Mom's 1993 3 series did quite well with little trouble for 14 years. My Dad still drives his 1995 5 series. While my G35, as would most other cars crashes over Chicago potholes and frost heaves, the BMW audibly records an impact, but the feeling it not transmitted to the seatThe car exterior and interior is perfect. No corrosion, no cracked upholstery, no torn carpet or headliners. Of course they take excellent care of their cars, unlike 95% of Americans. But by no means are they automotive enthusiasts.

    BMW's cult-like success is based on 3 ingredients:

    1) Developing state-of-the-art technology, which it licenses to most other manufacturers years later, and generally over-engineering their cars, something BMW buyer's EXPECT, and consequently are willing to pay for.

    2) Developing timeless designs, which endure in appeal for decades after their release, which helps maintain resale value as well.

    3) Having a heritage as a niche manufacturer which puts purpose and function before fads and trends with a world-wide reputation as a leader in industry. Besides they now design and build Rolls Royce.

    Remember before the G35, (Skyline) Infiniti was dying a slow death. More appropriately credit is owing to Carlos Ghosn, chairman of Renault, who infused some cash and better design into the Nissan and Infiniti lines. Finally after nearly 30 years in the North American market it is expanding to Europe.

    Overall Lexus has not made any significant penetration of the European auto market though a few of the models such as the LS and SC have been exported there since the last 1990s. One reason being the lack of a choice of fuel efficient diesel or smaller displacement gas engines where gas is $6 per gallon and there are the purchase taxes can amount to 30% of the price depending on Engine dsiplacement. BMW, Audi and MB offer those choices. Perhaps Infinti, which is perceived as sportier than Lexus, will fare better there.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    And all this relates to a $32k Pontiac with 361hp?

    -mike
  • athensathens Posts: 25
    I merely am replying to usbrit's post.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Well lets try to keep this focused on the G8 and comparing em to it.

    -mike
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,541
    " Instead, I paid $2K less for a loaded 2003 Lincoln LS V-8 leftover. "

    Interesting.
    I also bought a 2003 leftover.
    Excellent deal.
    Excellent car.
    At the time....
    - Ray
    Sucker ( apparently ) for bargain-priced V8 Sport Sedans...
  • athensathens Posts: 25
    I agree with keeping the thread focused on the G8 and its competition

    Well its seems to me that I've read at least 30 (recent) posts on this thread which compare the G8 GT DIRECTLY to the BMW 535 and 550i.

    Go figure.

    If contributors here will be writing posts comparing a Pontiac favorably to a BMW, and then state the BMW is overpriced/ is a poor value then they must be prepared for responses including contrary positions.

    Personally, as an American, I would love for the American Big Three to dominate the market as they did long ago. However, in my humble opinion, with gasoline quickly approaching $5.50 the G8 is not what GM needs to turn around its fortunes. An Opel Insignia, re-badged as a Saturn, would serve the GM shareholders and American consumer better.

    2022 and the 35 mpg CAFE fleet requirement is only 14 years away.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I find it very interesting that most folks, even the BMW-Fanbois are comparing the BMWs to the G8. Not a bad place to be compared to! I've heard a few Infiniti crossreferences as well. Again not a bad place to be comparing to. Just based on those comparisons I think the G8 is doing very well already.

    I doubt that the Tarus is being compared to a BMW 3 or 5 series and the Tarus falls in the same spot in the Ford lineup as the G8.

    Now if they would only filter down some of the good things in the G8 to more of the lineup for Pontiac they could be onto something. Like a G6 and G5 RWD based set of cars employing I4 and V6 cars that are fuel efficient...

    -mike
  • athensathens Posts: 25
    In 1990 the Taurus SHO was getting reviews from all the leading car magazines C&D, R&T etc. as a real competitor for the BMW 3 series.

    I have a clipping from a 1992 edition of C&D which compares the BMW, Taurus SHO and the Acura 2.5 TL.

    The SHO beat the other two in virtually every test.

    I should know. I fell for the marketing ploy and bought one in 1990. Seizing brake caliper pistons, rust in the wheel arches and on door trim, leather seats worn before their time, (despite regular cleaning and treatment with Lexol).

    Where may I ask is the Ford Taurus SHO now. Several 100,000 E36 3 series were sold world-wide over a seven year span. And plenty are still on the road in excellent condition.

    You make a great entry level model, which will appeal to a broad market, before you bring out a stupendous top of the line model. Consumers buying gobs of entry models create interest in the high line models. Not vice versa. If Porsche didn't sell a lot of Boxsters they would not offer a 997 GT3. Mercedes has to sell a thousand A-Class and C-Class before a single SL550 is sold. If the bread and butter Nissan Versa or Altima had a mediocre reputation Nissan would not have dared bring out the GT-R.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    I welcome all competition to BMW. It very healthy to ensure improvements continue globally.

    Right now, the entire BMW line for coupes and sedans are many steps up from the products produced by the old Big 3. CTS comes the closest currently.

    Corvette is and has always been in a league of it's own. Funny how that's the only car the GM has managed to develop over multiple decades.

    The 3 series has been developed. That's the way improvements make you number 1.

    G8 vs. 5 series? In a few categories G8 wins but as a total package? I know my answer.

    Regards,
    OW
  • genesisexogenesisexo Posts: 5
    I found out what ERMA is as dealer installed option of $5,000. ERMA is short for = Eastern Regional Marketing Adjustment. Like anyone would pay $5,000 above list for a GM car!!!!!!!
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The BMWs are great cars, but they come at a significant cost. I still don't understand how or why we are even comparing the G8 which costs SIGNIFICANTLY less than any BMW to it.

    As for the original SHO, it's still a great car, and I hate Ford with a passion.

    -mike
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    Like I stated a few postings back..Extra Money in My bank Account...where "my" is the same as "dealer"
  • wideglidewideglide Posts: 146
    The BMWs are great cars, but they come at a significant cost. I still don't understand how or why we are even comparing the G8 which costs SIGNIFICANTLY less than any BMW to it.

    Probably because Pontiac themselves are making that comparison in their advertising. They are inviting the comparison. They aren't marketing it as a muscle car (ala Charger), they're marketing it as a true sports sedan, competing with BMW, MB, Infinity, etc. And it's also valid because for the G8 to be a success, GM needs to realize their old mindset is not going to work, if they want to build a true RWD sports sedan, and compete in that market.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    It ain't only us...many of the rags started that before the thing even hit the port.

    It actually is beyond compare. It's not a luxury performance sedan like 5series or A6 or even CTS.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    And it's also valid because for the G8 to be a success, GM needs to realize their old mindset is not going to work, if they want to build a true RWD sports sedan, and compete in that market.

    They can't in the US. That's why it's imported. The CTS is the first one that even comes close. Still no cigar! Well, except for the V version. Funny how if you WANT something bad enough, it can be done.

    Regards,
    OW
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    But the price is sooo different than the BMW that it's ridiculous. Anyone who has half a brain knows that a Pontiac is not going to compete with a BMW, for 1/2 the price.

    What if BMW had to sell the 550i/560i at $32k MSRP? I'd like to see what they'd come up with on that budget.

    It's like sending me to the fish market to get Sushi grade fish but only giving me enough money for fish that would go into a fish-stick!

    $ for $ you aren't going to find another car out there that can hold it's own against the G8, even a comparably equipped Charger is $6k higher.

    -mike
  • athensathens Posts: 25
    Pontiac/ Cadillac dealership, which had been in business for 22 years, closed its doors just yesterday three blocks from my home. (Hint: I live in an affluent near northwest suburb of Chicago in which Hillary Clinton grew up.)

    No prior notice to customers, all inventory was apparently hauled away overnight except for some SRXs and six Escalades, that GM and its bank can't get rid of.

    I guess they couldn't sell enough G8s, CTSs, SLR-Vs (they had one forever in their showroom) and Solstices to stay in business.

    Haven't driven a Pontiac since my brother's last Grand Am with the terrific Quad Four (which leaked and burned oil like a sieve) back in my college days.

    Yesterday, however, I did drive a loaner 2008 Infiniti G35, while my G35 coupe was in for routine maintenance. I can tell you, for money similar to the G8 GT, (they are giving 18% discounts to cash customers) the new G35 is a quality product that is indeed fortified with stones. Powerful brakes. Returned 28 mpg on the freeway at an 80 mph cruise. And available with AWD for a relative pittance. All in all a classy, sporty car.

    BTW if BMW didn't spend the money to develop all the technologies like ABS, VDC, DTSC and Direct Injection, which it licenses to GM and other car manufacturers, or didn't bother to include them in its products then BMW cars would certainly cost less then they do. It's not that BMW cannot build cars more inexpensively. BMW realizes its loyal customers don't want an inexpensively designed and built product.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,382
    I agree the G8 is a bargain. The point is it's the only competent sports sedan GM makes in that price range. So for cars it's Malibu, G8 and CTS...and some small tin cans with stamped out 4IC's with no soul.

    That is why I tested the G8...value. I need to try the GT. Gas mileage is no concern because the differenc over 70K miles can't even make a small dent in the price difference of a BMW. Even the 3 series.

    Agree it beats all comp hands down for the money. Period. My comparo simply was from what I drive now vs. the GT. I could still see me buying this car.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,541
    Well, I will not dispute that 3995 is more weight than I had hoped.
    But.
    The G35 ( I do expect that others will see this model as a G8 GT competitor – though I see the M45 as closer in many respects ) does weigh less than the G8 V8. It has a 300HP V6. It has posted acceleration numbers very similar to the G8 GT’s numbers:
    R&T tested the latest G35 vs the new CTS and posted 5.3 and 13.8 @ 102.9.
    The G8 GT tested in R&T posted 5.0 and 13.5 @ 104.9.
    If you stop reading here, the G35 does seem roughly equivalent.
    [ Though 3 tenths and 2 MPH really are significant. ]

    But.
    The G35 has a 5 speed automatic. And a final drive ratio of 3.69:1.
    Top gear ( fifth ) is 0.84:1.
    Thus, RPM at 60 is 2550 – and at 70 to 80 ( where I spend as much of my highway cruising time as speed limits, traffic & prudence allows ) the RPM run 3000 to 3400.

    The RPM at 60, 70 and 80 in the G8 GT, from the R&T and C+D tests, shows roughly:
    60 = 1550
    70 = 1800
    80 = 2050
    Point being, the G35’s aggressive gearing & 5-speed automatic result in good ultimate \ absolute acceleration, and good ‘feel’ at WOT, but at the expense of rather higher RPM at cruise. [ Not that their V6 won’t turn those RPM. ] And returns ( according to the “new & improved” 2008 EPA numbers ) exactly the same MPG in highway driving as the G8 GT.

    Size matters?

    One primary reason that the G8 is heavier than the G35 is the size of the G8:

    Wheelbase G35 = 112.2 G8 = 114.8
    ( does 2 and a half inches matter – to you? )
    Overall G35 = 187.0 G8 = 196.1 ( almost a foot longer )
    Trunk G35 = 13.5 cu ft G8 = 17.5 ( a really big trunk, that . . )
    Width G35 = 69.8 G8 = 74.8
    ( likely more interior \ shoulder room – if that matters )

    As always, I am not suggesting that any of these differences mean anything to any particular, individual buyer. But the difference in size certainly has an impact on weight. And the gearing ( plus 5 speed vs 6 speed trans. gears ) has an impact on both acceleration & fuel mileage.

    And a few minutes on the Infiniti web site indicates to me that the G35 Sedan w/Sport ( w/LSD, etc ) starts at approx. $35K – where the G8 GT starts at $30K even.
    With V8, LSD, 18” wheels & tires ( 19” = only +$600), six speed automatic, etc.
    Comparing MSRPs, that’s about 15% less for a G8 GT. $5,000 is “Real money”, at least to me.

    If the quarter mile time & weight are the only criteria ( for you ) . . . that’s certainly OK.

    I also look at many other aspects of any car . . .
    And a big honkin’ V8, with great steaming piles of Torque, at any RPM, and able to cruise at ( what to me feel like ) very relaxed RPM are attractive. To me.
    [ G35 TQ = 268, G8 GT = 385 ]

    I expect that one primary reason for the weight of the G8 is that it was designed to have a V8. And the G35 was never designed with a V8 in mind.
    The Infiniti sports sedan that IS available with a V8, the M45 ( & M35 w/V6 ) is actually very close to the G8 in weight. Size \ weight below. MSRP of the M45 now starts at roughly $50K. And the EPA rating is 16 \ 21.

    And the new Caddy CTS ( currently only available with 2 different 3.6L V6s, but designed to accommodate the S/C V8 in the 2009 CTS-v ) is almost exactly the same weight as the G8 V8.

    To be clear here, I have respect for the G35 – have test driven a couple, and found them to be a compelling package. IF their specific attributes appeal. I find ( for example ) the effortless feel of the G8 GT’s V8 to be much more seductive & rewarding in my typical driving than the G35’s V6.

    “. . .for money similar to the G8 GT, (they are giving 18% discounts to cash customers) the new G35 is a quality product that is indeed fortified with stones. Powerful brakes. Returned 28 mpg on the freeway at an 80 mph cruise. And available with AWD for a relative pittance. All in all a classy, sporty car.”

    18% off? Interesting.

    If AWD is desired ( or a requirement ) then clearly the G8 is a non-starter.

    Carry on. . .
    - Ray

    M45:
    WB 114.5
    Length 192.6
    Trunk 14.9
    Weight 4010
    EPA 2008 16 \ 21

    = = =

    M45 test R&T June 2005:
    0 – 60 5.3
    Quarter 13.8 @ 101.4
    60 MPH = 2,300 RPM
  • nojetsnojets Posts: 31
    It was pulled off on the side of the freeway, receiving a speeding ticket...
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