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2008 Pontiac G8

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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If you always make the same car then yeah eventually you'll get it right.

    What's so bad about that? If you change models every three years you have to start all over and never get it right.

    Vette, Mustang, 3-series, Corolla, Civic.

    Regards,
    OW
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    I think you stand corrected. Honda, Toyota, Mercury & Lincoln are the standard for dependability (Again, only if you can get by your prejudices). All of which are fairly boring cars. I need low end grunt/torque & preferably RWD to have fun. Love to kick the rear-end out from time to time. My wife actually drives the G8 as a daily ride. It is not even a close substitute for the C5 vette. Maybe the GXP will fare better. One more feather in the American car makers caps is the tenacity to keep the smaller, lighter, simpler pushrod engine alive.
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Honda and Toyota are a cut above Lincoln-Mercury, I'm afraid!

    The G8 is finally what will compete. Again, it's an import. The cars that will excited should have been developed as the 'Vette and Mustang. Home-grown Camaro and Challenger. It takes desperate times and finally these classics return.

    I wish you the best of luck with the G8 and your C5!

    Regards,
    OW
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    paopao Member Posts: 1,867
    do we define toyota and honda as imports now that both the accord and the camry are built here in the US now??..even BMW builds their SUVs here in the US now.....so when do we blur the line...and no longer consider it an import....

    parts may be imported....but does point of assembly count more.....Im not so much worried about import vs domestic.....but the US manufacturers are still playing catch up...are making progress......but only time will tell
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    Which division did Mercedes sell off when times got tough??? Why do you want to ship a profit back to Japan every time they sell a Camry? Why is the UAW strangling our companies for better wages, health care and unheard off layoff packages, when we are not competitive now? At least the Holden plant is a subsidiary of GM much like our Toyota plants here are for Toyota. I like to see GM take a profit for the vehicles made and sold elsewhere. This benifits the US economy.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    What's so bad about that? If you change models every three years you have to start all over and never get it right.

    Vette, Mustang, 3-series, Corolla, Civic.

    No I mean the same car. The Ford Ranger has not changed at all in 15 years other than very minor tweaks. Same for the GM/CV. The Vette, Mustang, 3-series, Corolla, Civic have all changed a lot over the past 15 years, the chassis are different.

    -mike
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    do we define toyota and honda as imports now that both the accord and the camry are built here in the US now??..even BMW builds their SUVs here in the US now.....so when do we blur the line...and no longer consider it an import....

    parts may be imported....but does point of assembly count more.....Im not so much worried about import vs domestic.....but the US manufacturers are still playing catch up...are making progress......but only time will tell

    I agree, and more to the point why do we care so much about where a product is made, so long as the product is GOOD. I would buy a car from India or Ireland, or South Africa if the product was going to give me good value for my money. Be it "value" in terms of fun, or reliability or what not.

    With that said, let's try to keep this on the topic of the G8 rather than US v. Imports, there are lots of those topics we can carry this discussion on in.

    -mike
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    But the names mean something. The chassis are better and the cars are more reliable and therefore sell well.

    What is a G8?? Should have called it Grand Prix. It's almost as if they knew GP's were junk and didn't want to tarnish a good example of what Pontiac should have been making HERE IN THE US all along.

    Regards,
    OW
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Actually, the G8 replaced the Bonneville. The Grand Prix is still dredging along. :sick: Why? They have the G4, G6, G8. Why not throw in G5 for Vibe (or is there already a G5 and no G4? :confuse: ) and G7 for Grand Prix? Then call the Solstice the G1. Or, maybe, the G-whiz! :P
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The G-whiz is owned by Infinity! :P

    Regards,
    OW
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    But the names mean something. The chassis are better and the cars are more reliable and therefore sell well.

    What is a G8?? Should have called it Grand Prix. It's almost as if they knew GP's were junk and didn't want to tarnish a good example of what Pontiac should have been making HERE IN THE US all along.

    Regards,
    OW

    Again, I repeat, what does it matter where or by who or by what name a car is? So long as it delivers "value" (whatever that value may be to an individual)?

    I guess the name itself could be the "value" but those folks who buy on name alone, are pretty shallow people to begin with. Guess that's why, although I like MB and BMW, I never really was able to get along with the other owners because a lot of them had bought for the name alone.

    -mike
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    It matters what the name plate is because even though Buick Cadillac jaguar Lincoln Mercury Toyota & Honda are tied in overall quality, some people in this thread make comments like

    "All cars designed and built in the U.S.A. by Ford, GM and Chrysler are of secondary quality. The foreign manufacturers, including GM-owned Holden show their quality in looks, driving feel and lasting quality far better."

    Yet the same person asks why GM doesn't make the G8 in America. The obvious answer: then prejudice people that don't believe the V6 Merc. Milan is much more reliable than a V6 Camry won't buy it.

    This is because they have owned a handful of old American cars and believe their test results on dependability is far superior and scientific than the thousands of surveys CR & JD powers conducted. What do you do with the phony expert.

    BTW, I both my vette & 94 Impalla SS are/were fun America vehicles
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The market talks. I know nothing in comparison. The media loves Honda and Toyota. Where have you been?

    I posted this quote by Jack Welch on other forums which is appropriate at a time when the the Detroit 3 and the Financial Industry are experiencing hard times:

    "Change before you have to."


    The US manufactures are ridiculous!

    Watch the customers not me. When a product is good I buy it. When there is better, I follow.

    The G8 is good. I am not sure how much it will help GM since it is in limited supply so far.

    Regards,
    OW
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    The surveys were filled out by CUSTOMERS. They have spoken. CUSTOMERS that have perception issues would not buy an American nameplate even if in reality it was twice as reliable. Hondas & Toyota are all boring FWD vehicles with a false reputation of superior reliability. They are actually tied as I pointed out and proved to you several times now. Even a more reliable Fusion is more thrilling on a winding road than a Camry
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here's one that you might find interesting:

    This survey shows CUSTOMER choice for 2008 MY vehicles. 18 out of 26 segment winners are:

    IMPORTS!     That is why G8 is a great choice!

    2008 Motorist Choice Awards

    I did not participate!

    Regards,
    OW
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    bvdj84bvdj84 Member Posts: 1,724
    I would rather have a Honda or toyota.

    Though I was impressed with the G8! I would drive a white one, it was quite fun to drive! I loved the size, I felt right at home.
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    I test drove the Camry side by side with the Fusion. The Camry is a boring old womans car. It is ok if you drive like my grandmother. I would rather have a RWD CTS, Chrysler, G8, etc. The Camry might be fine for you if you don't like curves and love torque steer. Another vehicle I tested and liked was the Cad STS.I can see you don't mind having 60% of the vehicle weight on the front tire and would probably like the Acura too.
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    wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    Why is it late September, and the only 2009 model I see on Pontiac's website is a Vibe? There is no option to build a 2009 G8... What's up with that??? I have also heard there is no Manual transmission option on the GT this year, either. And you can have any interior color, as long as it's black. They are going to kill this car faster than the GTO!
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I test drove the Camry side by side with the Fusion. The Camry is a boring old womans car. It is ok if you drive like my grandmother. I would rather have a RWD CTS, Chrysler, G8, etc. The Camry might be fine for you if you don't like curves and love torque steer. Another vehicle I tested and liked was the Cad STS.I can see you don't mind having 60% of the vehicle weight on the front tire and would probably like the Acura too.

    That is because you in particular put driving characteristics in the "value" column. I am a road race instructor, so I also put this in my value column, however, I absolutely understand that 90% of the car buying public don't care what name or how their car handles. They see them as an applicance that takes them from point A to point B at the best gas milage, least CELs, and least maintenance cost. That is the value that they want. These are the folks who buy accords, camarys, and the other cars you put down as being "boring". Unfortunately boring sells well. Especially right now when money is getting more scarece.

    As much as I refer to Cam/cord/altima as refrigirators to my non-car enthusiast friends they say "Yup, that's what I want". So "value" is very subjective however if Ford or GM or Chrysler sold a superior product with lower cost of ownership and more "value" then they would be outselling the Camcordtima 2-1. Why aren't they outselling them?

    -mike
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    Finally an excellent comment and question. The obvious answer is in this thread. I have stated nothing but facts in these in this thread. The V6 Camry is unreliable. Toyota has had many reliability issues as of late with the Camry, Tundra camshafts, etc. The 08 Camry I test drove had several rattles coming from what seemed the front struts. That is ignoring the fact that it was much less satisfying to drive in the twisties than the Fusion (took both cars side by side).

    The fusion, Milan, MKZ are very reliable. American vehicles are more reliable than vehicles from Europe. Mercury, Lincoln, Buick, Jaguar, & Cadillac are more reliable than Nissan, Infinity & Mitsubishi. Furthermore, they are tied on reliability with Honda, & Toyota. Yet look at all the stupid comments from posts in this Blog. The Pontiac is only reliable because it isn’t made here. Toyota & Honda are currently benchmarks for reliability. Cars built in Europe are built much better and reliable than American cars.

    Nobody seems to mention the vette ZO6 with its amazing 600HP pushrod engine. Or the Viper which is most likely exciting vehicle on the planet to drive fast. Even the G8 is a balanced RWD sedan with an American pushrod V8 built by a GM plant in Australia. The CTS V can run away from most of the competition. The large Chryslers have awesome hemi engines, etc and don’t fall of the road like an Avalon when the road is not perfectly straight. GMs large trucks are the most fuel efficient.

    Look at Acura. A supposedly high-end Honda that has 60% of its weight on the front tires. The first thing taught in racing school is to keep equal weight front to rear using gas and brakes. Acura charges the premium price like Mercedes, BMW, etc yet they serve up torque steer like no tomorrow. Step on the gas the front tires get lighter and lighter as all of the weight [non-permissible content removed] to the back of the car. The faster you accelerate the lighter the drive wheels get. This is what Japan gave us.

    One person in this blog thought he was an expert because he owned about 5-6 cars and thought his reliability test results were far superior to JD powers & Consumer Reports who send out thousands of surveys.

    Yet I just gave my last two American vehicles to my kids who just got their licenses. They both have over 150k miles. I also drove a Crown Vic 280k miles (original engine and transmission). Somebody registered it after me.

    Just look at all the crap in these posts made by “masters of misinformation”. If you believe the crap from these posts, American vehicles would have to be far superior to their foreign rivals to be rated equal because everyone wants to drive America into the ground. I can’t tell you how many engineers I worked with that wanted to see the only successful American company (Microsoft) torn apart for being a monopoly. The engineers would have felt much better if it was Sony.

    Let’s face it, if American cars are inferior you can see why. Look at all these careless error burdened posts made right here by the same Americans who may be designing are cars. How can you expect American’s who can’t even read and retain simple reliability studies accurately to design and build a decent car.

    And let’s not forget the dumbest American’s of all who work for the United Auto Unions and kept on striking for better insurance, higher wages, more breaks, more power and legacy layoff packages as their companies were going under because they could not compete with their foreign rivals that don’t carry all the legacy baggage. I believe the surcharge to pay these benefits to employees amounted to a $2500 per vehicle deficit over the foreign rivals.

    The G8 is an excellent car for the money It blows away Nissan, Toyota & Honda in most drivability tests while it serves up more room and maintains a decent ride.

    Enough said???
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Finally. The only car that is worth it's weight produced in the US is the Z06.

    As for the other comments, the G8 is great because it's not made here. Period. If it was, it would ride like a Grand Prix. It doesn't! Thank GOODNESS!

    The business model of the US manufacturers continues to drive them into sub-par desirability, and therefore sales follows.

    I am far below expert and so are all of the customers who are flocking to the Asians. ;)

    As far as the Germans, the performance blows away all but a few high end US halo cars. You don't drive a US car if you DESIRE TO DRIVE!

    BTW, the last time I saw dealers being built in my area, they ALL REPRESENTED FOREIGN MANUFACTURERS! It must be my imagination! :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    Nice posting. At least you did not misrepresent the initial quality study or the JD powers 4 year reliability study. Lets hope it is Honda or Toyota that comes up with the first good electric car. Or better yet, China. I just hope someday all of this affects your income. I seen a lot of American engineers cry when development went to India because their engineers were making 25K NOT 125k a year.

    And BTW, I am glad gas is @ $4 a gal because China is fighting us for it to produce products for lazy Americans that can't even read reliability studies accurately.

    I can't believe you think the UAW union with its hight paid & insured workers dis not affect the big three.
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I guess you didn't see "Detroit's business model doesn't work"...that's the UAW included!

    Smile! :)

    Regards,
    OW
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    Many mistakes made in the past 30 years. Poor marketing and bad quality which started when we retooled to convert from RWD to FWD

    Many innovations too such as the minivan, SUV, even the first Antilock brakes in the old Tbirds & Lincolns.

    That said, it is inaccurate to say we do not produce reliable vehicles or all our vehicles are junk. I have read this over a 100 times in these postings and it just goes to show the uphill battle the big three face. Even when the reliability is equal American's keep trying to drive them to their grave. These same people don't have a clue. Some of them base their advise and decisions on a couple of old samples rather than thousands of surveys.

    I would still rather drive a big Chrysler, CTS, G8 or even a Lincoln Town car then a FWD Avalon. You may laugh, but I hate fighting a steering wheel during hard acceleration. Even Cadillac realized how wrong Japan was with this setup and changed all but one of its vehicles back to RWD. That is more than you can say for Honda's high-end Acura division.

    Furthermore, the G8 has a American pushrod V8 which makes it lighter, smaller in physical size, more torque & most importantly it has a lower center of gravity than OHC engines.

    The G8 was produced by GM, be it the Holden division and really doesn't have much competition from Japan which produces mostly appliances at that price point.

    Better yet when a vehicles is sold the profit stays in America NOT Japan.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    And all this has to do with the G8 how? Seriously if this doesn't get back on topic, I'll take actions to close this thread guys.

    -mike
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    Gee, I thought I was the host here?! :confuse: Yep, my name is at the top of the page as Host. :P And no, I won't be closing it down, but I am going to insist that derogatory comments about the intelligence of other members in this discussion cease immediately.

    Thanks for your future cooperation!
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    yak54yak54 Member Posts: 72
    Anyone know why there seems to be no star ratings from crash test for the G8?

    Thanks
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    dhampdhamp Member Posts: 8
    Unfortunately, in our fickle society, the name of a car means a whole lot. I never knew how true this was until the whole Ford Five Hundred-Taurus fiasco. What a load! You won't by a 500, but you'll by the exact same car with a Taurus name plate and a different grille?? Senseless. Another example is how I constantly hear people saying that they wouldn't spend over 30-grand for a HYUNDAI, because they can't get beyond the crap that Hyundai put out in the beginning. Look at the car and the service people! Not the nameplates!

    Unfortunately, the GP, like many other cherished namesakes in the American car industry, has lost it's luster over the years. The majority of people under 35 or so hear Gran Prix and think of those years of unrefined powertrains and gaudy plastic that Pontiac slapped on every doggone thing. They don't think of the big-block, six-pack variations that were awesome! They needed to come out with new names to break from the history that's etched in so many minds. Plus, I think they sound sportier than Bonneville or Gran Prix. IMO, GTO, Z28, 350Z, 911.......they just sound better. :)

    Now, I grew up in a GM household, mainly Olds, Buick, and Chevys. My dad still has the '70 Chevelle SS 396 that he bought in '72 OR '73. My 1st two cars were a '64 Impala (327 Turbo-fire) and a '78 Cutlass (305-V8 4-barrel). After my beautiful Cutlass was totalled (rear-ended on the way to school one morning), I got a Honda Accord hatchback. I was elated--probably because most of the upper class kids drove [non-permissible content removed] cars and I liked the manual tranny for dumping the clutch. I put a 180k on it before selling it to a former neighbor who continued driving it for many years. I think bought a Mazda 626 which I sold with 247k miles on it. Next I bought a '96 Maxima which I just sold a year ago with just under 250k miles on it and, other than a starter, radiator, and temp sensor, I never did more than scheduled maintenance on it. All of them were in good running condition when I sold them. All this to say that I've been on of those, "I like how some of the US cars look, but I'll always by Japanese" people....until recently.

    The US has always had a car here or there that I would "take a chance and buy", like the Marauder, '94-'96 Impala SS, and GTO. I just tend to put a lot of miles on a car and I've been spoiled by my Japanese models, so I have to feel that I can get 200k on a car w/out problems before I buy it. I broke down (bad choice of words)and bought a Ford Exploder.....oops! I mean Explorer...... because we were starting a family and wanted the room. MISTAKE! Including the transmission that crapped out around 80k, I spent waaaaay more in repairs in the 4 years we had it than I spent in 9 years of owning my Maxima, so we dumped it and got an Infiniti for my wife to drive. Couldn't be happier with that.

    I personally am a Nissan guy, and still drive a Maxima. HOWEVER, I love the G8. I was planning on getting an Infiniti M after my current Maxima, but if the first few years prove them to be reliable and sturdy, I'm about 80% sure that will be my next car. It invokes the same classic, big, muscle car feeling that are reminiscent of "the good ol' days" like the '95 Impala SS, but does so in a MUCH better package. The interior and ride quality are light years ahead of past efforts, and are world-class. WAY TO GO PONTIAC!!! Now, if we could just get a comparable RWD Chevy.......
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    cracoviancracovian Member Posts: 337
    It's called "Camry" - not that heard to spell. I don't own it but we almost bought the hybrid instead of the van; it was just too small but Lexus-like refined and exciting (though no V8, sub-200 HP American-style V6 or optional ABS here). Not sure what you mean by "boring" but isn't Fusion or Malibu in the same appliance category? People still buy the Toyota because, say whatever you want, long term reliability is much higher and the resale value rocks. Have you seen interiors on the Accord and Altima? They're some of the best in business and compare that to Fisher Price shiny plastics (excluding the G8 obviously) on Pontiacs and Chevys. And we're giving them $25 billion to make more of this crap, cut more corners and move even more of their production to China. It makes me sick.

    BTW, I'm really hoping for some good GM card promotions in December (like the 5K for my GTO in 2004) As much as I love our good ole' Trooper, a nice G8 instead (and for cheap) will be a good way to prop up the Australian economy and put Exxon back on track :)
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ...and compare that to Fisher Price shiny plastics (excluding the G8 obviously)...

    I thought that, too, until I sat in one. I was so disappointed. :cry: The design is nice, but the materials... And when I opened the glove box, my face melted! :surprise: :sick:
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    cracoviancracovian Member Posts: 337
    Do you mean you were disappointed with the interior of the G8? I know it's a downgrade from the GTO but it's still way above the "domestic" average and on par with a nice Accord.
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    Funny, but I prefer the interior of my F150 & Town Car over my G8 (My wifes Town Car was traded for the G8). My wife did too. I never feel that comfortable in Japanese cars. I almost always prefer vehicles made in America or even less reliable vehicles from Europe Furthermore, maybe I spelled Camry wrong, but the technical aspects I pointed out were accurate. And yes, the fusion I drove side by side to the latest generation Camry was much more tossable. I assume you would not notice this since you own a Camry and prefer a soft mushy ride that serves up plenty torque steer. I have found many faults with the G8 too. Not as many as I found with the Camry though. I will drive the G8. I would never drive a Camry because it is a mush bucket. I remember driving the Camry prior to this generation with the foolish tailpipe that practically dragged on the ground with any passengers in the back seat. With this setup the Camry had less ground clearance than my vette. Even my elderly in-laws noticed this when their friends Camry dragged relentlessly when exiting their driveway with passengers in the back seat. Something my Towncar could do with ease even with six passengers (Air adjustable suspension, non brain dead tail pipe placement). I also thought the seats in this gen Camry were god awful and a lot of car mags back this claim up. And again, according to honest owner surveys from CR, the V6 Camry is unreliable. I would imagine this would be something your up on if you are really trying to decipher who is building more reliable vehicles and not trying to bash American car manufactures using data collected in a vacuum??? I heard the poor build quality, crunches in the front suspension myself when I took a Camry for a test drive. Hope the spelling meets your criteria. Maybe you should take a look at Consumer Reports or JD powers reliability surveys prior to giving advice to others. So I own a C5 vette, 09 G8 and latest gen F150. I have owned well over 30 new vehicles including classics such as the 94 Impalla SS, mustangs, and too many others to mention. I am very fussy when it comes to ergonomics, ride and handling. 60-40 weight distribution always rears its ugly head when initial braking in a corner, during acceleration or just in general driving. The G8 is balanced and has an enormous amount of torque. So much so that if you were to put that gusty American V8 in a Camry it would lay rubber for ever during hard acceleration. All available weight would shift to the rear wheels. This was typed up fast so please correct the technical content, not the grammar.
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I was disappointed with the (dashboard) materials. The design is not bad.
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    the g8 had less power, was unreliable, took longer to brake, served up torque steer, squealed when entering and exiting off ramps and had rattles coming from the front suspension. I would rather see a poorly lined glove box.
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    tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Me, too! But why can't we have it all at an affordable price? They need to find new/better supplier bids.
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    I would rather see it built in Canada which I heard they will do eventually. Maybe this will cut the price since I assume this would cause a new evaluation on suppliers and possibly some tweaks in the manufacturing process? GM is a lame duck right now which is ashame. I don't think people are thinking how much it would hurt our economy if we rely totally other countries for big ticket items such as cars. Not to mention you would have to spend even more than the G8 costs unless unless you settled for the usual "run of the mill" 6CYL OHC, nose heavy FWD vehicles from Honda & Toyota. Imagine, not being able to kid the rear end out with the throttle. How boring!!!
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    cracoviancracovian Member Posts: 337
    Not sure if you're calling me "crazy" or not but you probably shouldn't since I was talking to paisan (including his curious spelling habit :) ) Then you're telling me I own the Camry???? That's just wrong... Where are you pulling all this information from, I'm afraid to ask? If you're just drunk on Friday evening then just tell me and I'll understand....

    I look at CR and data for cars 4 years or older all the time (I just like to keep my cars for a long time since the ones I pick are safe and don't break often.) JD Powers INITIAL quality may be on par for selected domestics but you may want to check that long-term reliability and especially resale values again.

    You compare Camry with Fusion and then you go on the tirade how inferior this Toyota is to the G8 and other RWD cars which no one has ever argued (???) You might want to read your title again and look in the mirror, dude.

    There must be a lot of grandmas and people concerned with gas mileage out there since Camry is #1 selling American-made vehicle. It even robbed the selectively Mexican-made F-150 off this title in April.

    I can't believe we're even talking about this here but I'm not the one who started it. I love the G8, its economy is troublesome to me but nothing a nice December incentive cannot fix.
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    cracoviancracovian Member Posts: 337
    I know there are a lot of studies posted (most of them very biased) about how auto industry impacts our economy but if I have a choice between a nice Japanese vehicle made in the States and an equivalent Mexican-made or another domestic with a lot of Chinese content then, I'm sorry, but I believe buying that Japanese vehicle is in our own and our workers' better interest, all things being equal.

    The argument of "profits" staying in this country always comes up but c'mon when was the last time anyone has seen them? Not sure if it came completely unnoticed but WE just shelled out $25 billion (within that $700 billion bail-out package) to the domestic automakers which at the current burn rate, should just keep their lights on for a couple of months. Put that (and whatever tens of billions of $$$ that follow) towards education, infrastructure, and alternative energy R&D and have a real positive impact on the economy instead.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It's called "Camry" - not that heard to spell. I don't own it but we almost bought the hybrid instead of the van; it was just too small but Lexus-like refined and exciting (though no V8, sub-200 HP American-style V6 or optional ABS here). Not sure what you mean by "boring" but isn't Fusion or Malibu in the same appliance category? People still buy the Toyota because, say whatever you want, long term reliability is much higher and the resale value rocks. Have you seen interiors on the Accord and Altima?

    I think our definitions of exciting or car with character are different. The Camcordima are all very very good cars, don't get me wrong, but they are appliances in that the owners (for the most part) use them as appliances, a way to get from point A to point B w/o ever knowing or caring about anything else related to the car. They are great for their purpose, just not a car for me to own since car-appliances aren't my style. The reason I don't lump the Fusion or Malibu into that "Appliance" category is not because they are exciting to drive, but they lack to reliability long term that the Camcordima has, just like your Maytag fridge that goes and goes and then you replace it with another one, never seeing the repair guy etc.

    -mike
    Motorsports and Modifications Host
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Not sure if it came completely unnoticed but WE just shelled out $25 billion (within that $700 billion bail-out package) to the domestic automakers which at the current burn rate, should just keep their lights on for a couple of months

    Ford looks like it'll be trading below $1.00 soon which would make it a penny stock!

    GM has dropped like a rock the past 2 weeks as well.

    Thankfully tomorrow and Sunday there is no trading so they won't slide back any further. :)

    -mike
    Motorsports and Modifications Host
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    I have heard it all too about the "made here on our soil", etc. Believe me, if Ford and GM go down this will have a major impact on our already bad economy. Everyone said it was ok to borrow money from China and buy up all of their products too. Now that China and India have boosted the gas prices to ~$4 a gal we have second thoughts. And this is by the way when people started defaulting on their crazy home loans.
    When we started going to India for our engineering because it was cheap labor and we had a shortage, everyone thought it was good. Now our software engineers are out of work. Engineers that I worked with wanted to sink Microsoft when the monopoly litigation was occurring. The were probably mad it wasn't Sony at the top. We are playing with fire. I have a feeling the striking UAutoW, the lousy American engineers not just at FMC and GM but all of us will be sorry some day for trashing America even when it the information being touted is not true. All the cars are made everywhere. That said, giving the profit to a foreign company on every car sold can't be good. I have read many articles on the issue.

    And for those of you that can can manage to get to the CR online "reliability of new models" section. They can find their Camrys 6 vehicles from the absolute bottom with a big black bar that extends to the "worst than average" area of the graph. Guess I wasn't hearing things when I drove that mush bucket. It really did rattle.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The reason people are defaulting on their houses is because everyone here thinks they can spend beyond their means. "I was amazed I got the loan for the [insert home, car, credit card, etc here]" of course they didn't realize that if they were suprised they got a particular loan, they probably shouldn't have been spending the money on said item.

    Don't blame our economic problems on foreign countries, look within for the problems.

    Also just an FYI, FMC and GM can and probably are stocks owned by foreign companies, so are we really supporing "our own country" by buying american branded cars?

    Everyone here helped to contribute to the exporting of jobs, I'm sure that 90% of what you are wearing is made somewhere overseas. No one was crying a river when my Italian-American ancestors were laid off from the clothing industy in favor of cheap foreign goods. Nope they had to roll with it and adapt to the new landscape in terms of jobs. Same goes for auto workers etc. If the jobs aren't here for what you can do, you either move to where the jobs are or you adapt to what the local economy supports....

    [ / rant off ]

    -mike
    Motorsports and Modifications Host
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    You don't understand. We no longer have a technical edge in this global economy. Workers in other countries make peanuts compared to our workers. There is not going to be anyplace we can go like your ancestors. We are really getting off of the subject. With the creation of the internet the technology is available to all. Engineers in India were making 25k while we were making 125k. I bet you think it would benefit Americans more if the first viable electric car is invented elsewhere. Keep it up, our kids will pay.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    So, we need to get off our collective (myself included) LAZY BUTTs and go to school, learn, and then PRODUCE these great things. Instead though, we rather play video games, go to schools with "no student left behind", etc. etc.

    To your thoughts on the 25k Engineer v. 125k Engineer, why should I as the consumer pay for the 125k Engineer to design my car, IF and this is a big IF the 25k Engineer can do the same thing for less money? That's the whole basis of the Capitalism System that competition will yield a better cheaper product!

    -mike
    Motorsports and Modifications Host
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    mrpushrodmrpushrod Member Posts: 80
    We all need a huge pay cut. We may be at the beginning of the correction. And BTW, there is really nothing great about a FWD, front heavy, unreliable V6 Camry regardless where it is made. It would be the one of the last family sedans on my list. I drove the CTS and STS, liked them both. The G8 is ok too, but I rather the interior ergonomics of the Caddies. The G8 has better interior room which was paramount to me. Like the balanced ride and the pushrod V8 which is American. Best engine for the money, simpler lower center of gravity, weighs less, more torque, smaller exterior, more reliable.

    GMs Holden transplant G8 is a much better car than the Camry. And just as when Toyota sells a Camry here, GM gets a check when they sell a vehicle in Australia. It is the same deal, yet everyone knocks GM for doing the same thing Toyota is doing.

    And GM has a good reason for doing it. The legacy UAW payoffs costs GM a $2500 premium for every vehicle sold. The premium goes to a lazy American for striking rather than working. We compete against a lot of countries where the salaries are pittance compared to ours.
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I am surprised someone of your experience doesn't realize the damage second class products have done to the former big 3. It's not a plot by uninformed consumers that have migrated to the imports. You bought a G8 which is an import.

    The fact is that the demise of the big 3 was inevitable. Arrogance breeds weakness in the end. Yes it will hurt our economy just like drunken consumers lived on credit to buy what they could not afford.

    CR or JD Power can't help the poor products that came out of Detroit. GM and Chrysler are talking merger. It doesn't have to go to bankruptcy and I think this is a great time to do something drastic.

    Regards,
    OW
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Correct. The business model did them in. Inferior products and profits do not work in business.

    That's why the G8, 2008 CTS and 2008 Malibu stand out like beacons. Not the usual junk you see in the show rooms.

    Regards,
    OW
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    OW,

    I agree with yah. Same arguement I got into at an autoshow with a Ford rep. They could not give me a single reason to buy their FWD mid/small sedan over a foreign car other than "Support America". Actually when that arguement didn't work, she went so far as to say, well buy a Ford because we donated money to 9/11 relief efforts. That's when I lost it and went off on this lady because she was trying to use 9/11 donations by Ford to sell me a car. In retrospect, I should have taken her name and gotten her fired for such comments!

    I heard about the GM-Chrysler merger. That could get very interesting.

    -mike
    Motorsports and Modifications Host
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    holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    "Don't blame our economic problems on foreign countries, look within for the problems".

    How bloody true is that!
    I give it to you in one word,Bush.
    I seriously doubt anything we do here (Australia) would affect you guys.
    But what Bush did with your Banking System over there has screwed things here big time as well.
    Still, our Government has always been heavily regulating the banks here and we will ride out this disaster far better than you guys.
    The BIG BIG BIG bonus for you guys is the fact that the $AU has been sold heavily for no damn reason at all other than Americans need the cash.
    Expect,(DEMAND) that you get your G8`s cheaper from the Dealers as our $ dropped over 25 cents against yours.
    Therefore, it is cheaper for your Dealers to buy them now.
    They most likely have a bigger margin now, so haggle the hell out of them.
    On a differant note, Have any of the Utes arrived yet?
    I heard over here that it was put to a vote to name them and you came up with G8 ST (Sports Truck)?
    They are hugely popular here, we call them a sports car with a bloody big boot (trunk), lol!
    Also, our SS (G8) our now running with the 6.2 litre motor and the HSV`s are using the LS3.
    To hell with the price of fuel, we pay way more than you anyway.
    Life is too short, enjoy them while you can.
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    holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Has a rating of 4 stars mate.
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