Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

kens · May 2003

Tom: I didn't realize that you were with CR until I read your last post! It's good to have your participation here.

Does CR use professional drivers for their vehicle tests. I've always been curious since CR's test results (ie. 0-60) tend to be more conservative vis-a-vis car magazines.

Any idea of CR is planning on reviewing the Forester XT?

Ken

taft4 · May 2003

In today's edition of the Chicago Tribune they published the J.D. Power 2003 Initial Quality Study and out of 36 makes Subaru ended up 28th, with a score below the industry average. Power sent out 205,000 surveys of which 52,000 were completed and returned. While I have had no trouble with my XS Premium with leather, other than the recall on the transmission, apparently others have not been so lucky.

tkevinblanc · May 2003

I did not know the test was so thorough. I retract my statement.

joseph50 · May 2003

How do y'all think the Lance Armstrong tie-in is doing? I, for one, am pretty impressed.

rsholland · May 2003

Glad to have you aboard as well. Perhaps you can shed some light on CR and their testing.

As you might expect, CR is a controversial subject here. Some people hate the magazine, others (myself included) find it valuable, if for no other reason, it often sheds light on automotive issues that the car "buff-rags" ignore or sweep under the rug.

Bob

mutcth · May 2003

Thanks. I'm usually somewhat wary about mentioning who I work for, due to the definite range of emotions that exist about us. I just try to be helpful - and I'm here reading up on Forester stuff since I'm considering a Forester turbo to replace my Passat. I test automotive aftermarket equipment (like the GPS systems in June's issue - that's my hairy arm driving the Lincoln LS), lawn mowers (that's me doing a sudden start test also in June's issue), and sporting goods.

The auto test folks are much more specialized than I am - they do only cars, all the time, at a large private test track we own in CT. Most are former development engineers from car companies (Nissan, Land Rover, GM, Chrysler) or from tire companies. They all love cars, and many of them autocross or have project cars. Unfortunately, our format and demographic, as well as our critical nature, suppresses that enthusiasm.

Our 0-60 times are done more conservatively than other magazines. We drive the cars like we own them - since we do - whereas buff magazines typically drive a lot harder. (Our cars still get driven fairly hard though - especially the S2000 we kept for "track calibration.") Remember, we're also usually testing only automatics as opposed to more manuals by the magazines.

You guys do have a point about the Sorento though - if you need to tow a trailer or go off-road, it might be a better pick than a CR-V, despite where it falls in the scores. We're planning a premium service that will allow readers to make their own scoring criteria weightings - long a source of question from readers and non-readers alike - so that you can rank the cars, using our data, in your own order based on your priorities. It should be quite nice.

I hope we review the Forester XT, and the Acura TSX, and the new Legacy, and the PT Turbo - I get to buy the cars at discount, and I don't quite know what I want....

I don't know what's in the pipeline much beyond September, and we already own those cars. (Besides, I really couldn't tell you anyway, disclaimer or not.)

All opinions my own, not CRs.

Tom

kens · May 2003

Tom,

Thanks for sharing. That was very interesting. I've long been a subscriber and wanted to know how things were done behind the scenes. It sounds like a fun place to work -- wow does one get started with CR?

One question I've always had -- how come the reader surveys don't have paid return postage? It sounds silly, but I find that to be a huge barrier in me wanting to fill out the form and mail it back.

Ken

mutcth · May 2003

I got lucky - the right place in the right time when I graduated engineering school....

I thought we used to send out a dollar with the survey - I guess we don't do that anymore. I could see how that would be a deterrent. It will soon be able to be done online, although I'm not sure about how all of the details will work. I'm sure minds higher-up in the company have worried extensively about it....

All opinions my own, not CRs.

Tom

c_hunter · May 2003

I'm glad to have you on board, Tom. I'm an ocassional CR reader, and have always found their ratings useful. So what do you think about Honda lawn mowers? I have had one for a couple of years. Just compared to my neighbors other mowers (which alternately fail to start or sound like they're about to throw a rod) the Honda starts on the first pull every time and purrs like a kitten.

CR is not the only magazine to have an odd assortment of cars in a test, including some that seem out of place and leaving other out. Car and Driver does it all the time. There's usually some explanation about models not being available, auto vs. manual, etc.... but it always seems somewhat weak/cheesy to me. It's rare they have a comparison I agree with. Tell you what though, C&D better have an Evo versus STi test!! That's pretty much a no brainer!

BTW, I got a JD Power survey about my WRX. They sent me a crisp dollar bill, which was nice (guilted me into completing the survey sooner than I normally would). Interestingly enough, most of the questions were about the dealership and buying experience. Only 3-4 questions about the car, initial quality, and brand loyalty.

Craig

subearu · May 2003

Your wish was granted...sort of.

C&D's June '03 mag has the STi vs. EVO on the front cover. But, they pick the EVO over the STi. Whatever.

-Brian

c_hunter · May 2003

Thanks for the heads up, Brian. Can't wait to read that one... should be arriving in the mailbox soon.

Craig

allhorizon · May 2003

First the good news:

Looks like the XT is only 35 lbs heavier than the XS premium. Ground clearance is up 5mm? Same track.

Now the bad news. Not only does it require premium, its mileage goes down from 21/31 to 18/25, according to the Canadian Subaru web site (all my conversions from l/100km, MT). But the US site has 21/27 for the XS? I suspect a typo at the CA web site (again?).

- D.

dagpotter · May 2003

Ok, tomorrow I go to probably buy an Aspen White Forrester XS Premium for my wife. Any reasons I should not? Thanks...

paisan · May 2003

I agree with Juice though, the Sorento should be scored with Rodeo, Xterra, XL7.

As for the Trooper and CR, there hasn't been 1 single rollover in real life in the same situation that was presented by CR so I still stand by my assesment that they were way off base. Anyone who knows me, knows that if the Trooper could roll, I'd have done it by now

-mike

paisan · May 2003

Welcome to the crew, hopefully you can use your influence at CR to try to point out things that are inconsistent in their reporting... Always good to have someone who cares on the inside and who gets in touch with real users/readers.

rsholland · May 2003

I've had the same self-propelled Honda HR214 since 1986, when I bought it new. The lawnmower has been used and abused to no end, I am somewhat ashamed to say. This year after years of neglect, I finally brought it in for service, more out of guilt than anything. My one-acre lot is heavily wooded, meaning sticks are common as are acorns and the occasional rocks. I also have a nasty hill near the street.

It has NEVER failed me.

Bob

tkevinblanc · May 2003

I heard an interesting clip about the JD Power Initial Quality survey. It should put some doubt in your mind about using this as an important part of any buying decision.

The lowest rated vehicle in initial quality was... the Hummer II.

Why? Buyers sited atrocious gas mileage and lots of wind noise as the top two reasons.

Now, I'm all for consumers complaining to try to get vehicles improved, and I'm all for manufacturers listening and trying to improve vehicles.

But should that vehicle, which is so obviously over the top, so pointless, such an ego trip, suffer in its quality ratings because it is what it is? What moron complains about wind noise and mileage in a concrete block shaped, oversized beast?

paisan · May 2003

That's funny. I would rate it as poor initial quality because it's just a gussied up Yukon, so you know you'll have those quality plastic parts falling off in ~20-30K miles. I wouldn't rate it poorly for wind noise and milage however.

-mike

mutcth · May 2003

Honda mowers do well in our testing, but other mowers are catching up. The recent batch of Honda-engined mowers I tested this winter didn't start as easily or "purr" as smoothly as they seemed to in the past. Other engines start as easily now - and a lot comes down to maintenance. The old Hondas do run forever - but then again, given the investment, there is certainly a motivation to keep them going.

Paisan, thanks for your comments. We do try to shape the tone and message of the reporting as much as possible, but as in any business, as a story goes through all of the levels, it can shift in focus. We try as much as possible to get the view of our readers into the pages, but it can be a battle - and we get reams of mail to show it.

The Sorento is scored with the XL7, Xterra, etc on the bar chart in the article. Rather than wait for a group of four very similar SUVs to be introduced, we surveyed the market for new designs, published them in one report, and then incorporated the data for comparsion to the previously tested similar vehicles. It would have been a long wait to find 3 more Baja like vehicles....

All opinions my own, not CRs.

Tom

hypov · May 2003

paisan May 8, 2003 7:35am

Those guys @ CR must have driven it at or beyond the point of recklessness then.
I've riden in the Trooper with Paisan at the helm and he hasn't rolled it. If he doesn't roll it, any 'normal' ;-) driver wouldn't, and y'all know Paisan's driving style

-Dave

wilberto · May 2003

Long-time lurker and very new Forester owner. Picked it up last wednesday and am very happy so far. A couple points I thought I'd share:
-Our short list was down to the CRV and Forester. Only feature we wanted was slight recline on back seat, which would make a big difference for adults in the back, but it wasn't a dealbreaker.
Came down to liking the "car" feel and I didn't want a truck. (According to my wife, the only real dealbreaker was heated seats. My list was a little longer.)
-Racks: I had a THULE system on my old Jetta, including 2 Big Mouth bike attachments. I had the dealer credit me for the factory racks and purchased new THULE towers and bars. Some wind noise, but I expected that with the bike attachments, as they'll live on there until November or so.
-Keyless Entry: Read post about someone's problems in downtown Boston. I park at work in a surface lot in downtown Toronto and I have to walk around to between passenger door and front wheel for it to work. Works great everywhere else so far, even at quite a distance, so I don't think it's a battery issue. I'll mention it when it's in for service, but I think I'll just adapt.
-I've kept the speed under 100 km for the first 1,000 and varied speed on the highway, but any other "break in" tips I should follow?
-Carpet mats seem nice, but I think I'll go aftermarket rubber before next winter.
-Prior to purchase, I read about 2 year's worth of posts on here. Thanks for educating me on things to look for, thanks for being enthusiastic about your Subarus, and thanks for giving me somewhere to come with my questions.

Wayne

labgirl · May 2003

I'm looking at the XS premium - on paper it looks very good, but I've not done a test drive yet. Anyone want to comment on: handling in snow/ice, sound system, leather vs cloth? Also, am I likely to actually get the TMV price? Should I start by asking for invoice?

c_hunter · May 2003

Matthew: unless you want a turbo model, which will be available this summer, I'd say get one now! Of course, make sure you take a thorough test drive.

Wayne: welcome, congratulations on the new car! We also looked at the CRV while shopping, but hated it. I thought the handling was abysmal, and the interior is kind of cheap looking to me.

Sharon: Forester is great in the snow, can't speak for ice but what car is good on ice? Sound system is decent if you get the upgrades. My wife's XS has the upgraded speakers and subwoofer, and she's quite happy with it (big moonroof and a kickin stereo were on her list of things to get in a new car). We have leather, which is fine, but I preferred the cloth personally. I think you can expect to pay $500 under invoice, possibly better. I have lost track of the incentives on the Forester, but $500 under seems to be the going rate these days.

I noticed from your profile that you're also shopping for a Highlander. We seriously considered that vehicle too. It drives very nicely if you get the V6. In the end, it was too much like a minivan for my wife. When we finally drove the Forester, she pretty much fell in love with it (which is why I saved it for last). It's considerably more fun to drive than the Highlander. Less refined, certainly (at least compared to a V6 Highlander), but way more interesting to drive.

Craig

rsholland · May 2003

True, but Mike's Trooper is not exactly stock. He's got oversize tires, which probably increases the track and lessens rollover possibility. He may have made other suspension changes too, but I'm not sure about that. He may well have improved upon the Trooper's handling.

Even so, we're not comparing apples-to-apples here. Once you modify a vehicle, comparisons with "stock" models no longer apply.

Bob

kens · May 2003

Tom: I'll have to check if there was a dollar bill in there. I don't recall seeing it. I just remember thinking "they want us to fill out such a long and extensive survey and pay our own postage?".

XT Fuel economy: I'm sure there will be a hit to fuel economy with the turbo, but you also have AVCS working for you as well. I'm sure gas milage is going to vary depending on how you drive it (ie. how much you keep it on boost).

dagpotter: The *only* reason not to buy an XS tomorrow is that the XT is on it's way shortly. The XS is a great model, but the XT is going to have substantially more power.

Wayne: Welcome and congrats. We hope you stay an active participant. As for the break-in procedure, you're doing fine. Keep in mind that it's more about varying the engine RPMs than vehicle speed. Since you're over that first 1000 miles, you can slowly start bringing the RPMs up past 4000. You might also want to consider having an oil change. There's some debate on how beneficial this is, but it can't hurt.

Ken

paisan · May 2003

I had my truck 100% stock for 20K miles, even then I only added a lift of 1" at 20K miles which would INCREASE rollover. At 30K I put on the larger tires, and shocks and other mods that might effect rollover. I also drive my buddy's '00 Trooper that has 50K on it and is bone stock. So Dave knows exactly how un-rollover prone they are....

-mike

labgirl · May 2003

Thanks for the input, guys (and gals). I've decided against the Highlander as too big and too like my dumpy old minivan. I've been reading lots here, and am getting my ducks in a row before actually heading to a dealer (checked my credit report for errors, speced out car, checked what's around, etc.) The current ads up here say there's a $500 rebate on the X, but not the XS, but if I can get near invoice and 0% financing , I'll be happy. I'll probably go for the leather seats since that gives you the heating as well which is nice up here in New England. And, it sounds like the sound system upgrade is worth while.

dagpotter · May 2003

The car is for my wife. She doesn't need more power for the driving she does, so I don't realy want an XT. Also, one of our goals is to get some better gas mileage then the minivan, and an XT probably won't do that. If it was for me, I would, like my brother, buy a 2004 WRX.

dcm61 · May 2003

Heated seats are standard on an XS w/ leather or cloth.

DaveM

kens · May 2003

That makes sense. No need in paying for extra power at the cost of lower milage and higher fuel costs.

Actually, the XT is a strong contender for the WRX. The XT will have much better low-end torque than the WRX, not to mention nicer creature comforts and more cargo room. I heard that Subaru of Canada's website mentioned the 0-60 time being only 0.1 seconds behind the WRX.

Ken

ateixeira · May 2003

Tom: good to have you here. Indeed, I have not yet received that issue of CR. So, your hairy arm is famous! LOL

I value CR FWIW, you really have to read it a certain way, the target audience is not us (enthusiasts), it's your average family. They publich payload, tow ratings, measured clearance, and lots of stuff that you can't get from any other single source. It saves lots of time, i.e. it's a good summary.

I read C&D and Autoweek, but honestly it's my test drive that I weight most heavily.

Just 35 lbs for that huge intercooler? 5mm more clearance is strange. Maybe it's how the engine sits in the bay, or the front cross members under the engine are moved up.

18/25 is still not bad. I saw that the Sante Fe got a bigger, 3.5l V6, and it's rated for just 16/20, and I bet the Forester's a lot faster.

In a way, putting the Element and Baja with the Aztec makes sense, they're all extroverted and wild looking. Hence I called it the "freak show". :-)

Potter: I'm not gonna stop you. Love my '98 with 52k miles so far.

labgirl: you should be able to beat the TMV price. The turbo and the 2004s are right around the corner, prices are as low as they'll get IMO.

Honda added a peppy 2.4l engine to the CR-V, and the back seat is limo-like. I felt the front seat didn't have enough travel, though, and I prefer full-time AWD as opposed to the mostly FWD setup Honda uses. Try both.

-juice

corkfish · May 2003

I suspect that the XT will weigh at least 3200 pounds. I hope it's as quick as the Canadian announcement suggests, but I'm skeptical as it pretty much has the same power to weight ratio as the PT Cruiser Turbo. I found the Turbo lag in the WRX wagon to be extremely annoying so I believe this car will be more fun to drive because of all that torque at 3600 rpm. I know the WRX is capable of being a quick car, but I swear after finishing my test drive and getting back into my 10 year old SE-R, my Sentra felt much quicker. By the way, the intercooler on the XT looked pretty tiny, I suspect that the added weight may be from exhaust system differences and suspension parts. I hope they keep this thing light, if they start going over 3200 pounds I may have to go back to the WRX Wagon.

kullenberg · May 2003

If this thing is going to go on sale next month, we should see some pricing pretty soon, don't you think?
Cheers
Pat

subieman · May 2003

While looking for dropped coins, i happen to stumble upon some wires underneath my 2000 Foresters drivers seat.

Originally i thought these were wiring for the subwoofer/amplifier. However, recently i looked at the diagrams for the subwoofer installation. It requires head unit removal including the front bezel before connection to the woofer. (which i thought was pre-wired and ready to go).

So, if those wires are not pre-wires for the sub, what exactly are they for?...seat heaters? (my model is an L, which does not have them)

allhorizon · May 2003

I meant 35kg, not 35lbs. Here are the values from the Canadian Forester micro site (my conversions):

XS: 3097
XS Premium: 3131
XT: 3208

I am not concerned about the magical >3208lbs number. Power-to-weight ratio is based on a single number - max power, i.e., when you shift into next gear. What counts is how much torque you have in the rpm range before that. I have no reason not to believe the 6.1 seconds listed on Subaru's site.

- D.

grahampeters · May 2003

G'day

Could be for seat belt warning light which is mandatory in many countries but may not be in USA

Cheers

Graham

gened1 · May 2003

My 02 Forester L (discF/drumR) brakes are starting to squeal when applied. They have 8950 miles on the pads/shoes.When I took it in for the 7500 mile checkup I mentioned it to the service person and they must have deglazed the pads/ shoes as the squeal went away. But now it is starting to come back.
My question is: can anyone recommend pads and shoes for the Forester that won't be as suseptible to this squealing? I have two other new cars in the family that don't do this.
Gene

ateixeira · May 2003

The SE-R is anything but slow. It's also much lighter, so the same size engine (2.0l), off boost, will seem much quicker with the Nissan.

My guess is those wires are for heaters. Interesting that they tend to pre-wire for everything whether or not the model gets it. I bet it's cheaper for them that way, more streamlined assembly.

Gene: there's usually a trade-off between metallic content and noise. Semi-metallic pads stop better, but squeel more. The OE pads are sort of middle-of-the-road.

You can have the pads scuffed again. I bet you have an automatic? If possible, after a hard stop, let off the brakes to let the pads cool seperately from the rotors, to prevent glazing the pads.

Hawk pads performed extremely well in C&D tests in a WRX, but I bet they're actually more likely to squeel.

-juice

dagpotter · May 2003

I was unable to do the deal today as they offered nothing for my trade. I expected to be upside down a little and could live with it at 3.49%, but they were off by 5K. I will try a couple of other dealers, but the wife may be stuck with her old minivan for a while.

labgirl · May 2003

Hey, dagpotter, did they offer a reasonable price on the XS/P? I'm about to go looking for one this weekend too. (I have an old minivan too, but it's not going to be traded in.)

dagpotter · May 2003

Yes, the price was excellent, - 22,830 for a XS Premium with no other options (TMV was 23,100)...in white. I would have bought it right then, but I cannot finance 3+K of upside down. We don't need a new car right now, just want one. Shouldn't have bought the van in the first place, but crying over three year old spilt milk don't do anyone any good.

labgirl · May 2003

Thanks , dagspotter! You are right about 3K of upside down. If that van is only 3 years old, I would think you could sell it privately perhaps? Well, best of luck.

dagpotter · May 2003

That may be the option. I will talk to two other subaru dealers and we will go from there.

c_hunter · May 2003

Out of curiousity, what year/make/model is your van? Do you think it really depreciated that much, or was the dealer just not trying hard enough to make a deal?

When we bought my wife's Forester, we pretty much broke even on her trade -- a 2000 Mazda 626 with ~25,000 miles. We got the 626 at a deep discount (through the Ford A-plan for employees, since her mom works for Hertz) and I was expecting that to help us when we sold/traded the vehicle. No such luck. We were lucky to come out even. The Subaru dealer gave us a fairly good offer on the 626 too, slightly more than I expected. It's just that the car's value really plummeted.

Craig

dagpotter · May 2003

it was a 2000 Dodge Caravan with about 40 K miles. TMV was about 6500 or so. I was hoping for 7500 or so. Dealer started at 4600. I was willing to be about a K upside down, not 4 K.

alteregonyc · May 2003

I'm in the market and found a 1998 Forester L. From the descriptions of it, it doesn't look like it had much options installed. No matter; I'm just looking for something I can use with minimal problem for the next 5-6 years or so.

My first question is: how reliable and dependable have you found your Forester? Specifically speaking, how is the 1998 Forester? Will there be constant little problems? Will there be major overhaul, should I decide to buy this car?

Secondly: this Forester I located... seems a bit too cheap for comfort. It's 98 L model, with around 101,000 miles on it... so that's around 20,000 per year... which seems a bit more than "typical." But this was listed at $5500! (Marked down for this month from about $6700. Should I be skeptical??? I checked Carfax info, using the VIN#, and it looked clean... and initially registered for personal use.

I can't keep going back to the used car dealer, because it's a bit far from me. I will make one trip to see the car, determine whether it would be acceptable, and buy/not buy the car. Any tips you can give me???

Thanks!!!
I'm both excited and worried. It's been a while since I bought a used car.

grahampeters · May 2003

G'day

I'm an Outback owner from Downunder but from regular involvement in these pages over four years it seems that the major issue with Foresters was over rear wheel bearings. If there was a problem with the one you are looking at, it would likely have shown by now.

Subarus are fairly long lived and robust beasts. They must be serviced regularly by competent technicians (tell me of any recent vehicle that this does not apply to) but are otherwise very good. Do check for service reciept asn ensure that scheduled maintneance has been undertaken regularly.

All Subarus are known for high mileages so do not be put off.

Cheers

Graham

xccoachlou · May 2003

The NHTSA just rated the Forester. 5 Stars!!

http://www.nhtsa.gov/NCAP/Cars/2533.html

- Lou

jtm4 · May 2003

Our '98 Forester has 67k on it. We've been very happy with it. It's been very reliable and we've been extremely happy with the performance of the vehicle. I've kept up with regular maintenance and have had very few problems. My gas mileage has averaged about 24 mpg. The '98 has the DOHC engine. It's hard when you buy used. I bought mine new, so I know that it's been taken care of. Carfax can't tell you how the car was treated by the previous owner(s). Good luck.

Jim

taft4 · May 2003

Six months ago I purchased a 2003 XS Premium with Leather, trading in our 97 Lincoln Towncar. Before buying I road tested (for at least 50 miles each) the RAV4, Tribute, Santa Fe, and CRV. Our minimal needs were to have a vehicle (sedan, SUV, or whatever) that was high enough for my wife to easily exit (she has MS) and low enough to easily enter, one that had leather so she could slide in and out, one short and narrow enough, with a tight turning circle, to easily fit into our underground parking space and into parking spaces at the local shopping centers. The Forester best met those requirements.

All the tested vehicles were stocked with weird accessory groupings, and in order to get the leather on the Forester I had to get a moonroof (what a waste) and a 6 player CD, both expensive items, and both of which we will never use. At first I was very disappointed with the purchase because the Forester rode like a truck (compared to the Lincoln), had only marginally better gas mileage (20 vs. 16), and it was noisier. But as the months rolled by I got use to these changes and now find I like the Forester, especially its ease of parking and maneuverability in our heavy traffic. It is also much easier to load a wheelchair into than was the Lincoln.

I drive only 600 miles a month so the 20MPG is not a wallet buster, although from an environmental standpoint, the mileage stinks. Incidentally, my MPG is just under 20 for 3600 miles. Fortunately I found this web site and I have leaned some nice things that make the Forester more fun and convenient to use, and I appreciate the information. Just last week I learned how to find out when the extra cost security system was working, something I was not sure about before. The vehicle rode better after someone here said to check the tires and not trust the PSI that the dealer put into the tires. They were over inflated so I reduced the PSI to the manufacturers specs and got a better ride.

The vehicle is fast enough for us when we enter the nearby expressway and have to get up to 70 fairly rapidly. I was pleased with the CR report on the Forester and agree with them about the goofy gated shifter. For a few bucks more Subaru could have made the car much better by adding a few interior lights, instead of just the one, for nighttime entry. They should have included a height adjustor for the passengers seat, and they should have done something to stop the clacking as the remote door entry device bumps against the steering column when the vehicle is in motion. I have solved the latter by putting a large soft bandage on the column.

The Forester has been trouble free, except for the recall on the shifter, the Subaru bucks is a great deal, and the dealer offers such free extras as a loaner, or valet pickup service (I am 25 miles away) when the car needs to be in for servicing. All of this makes ownerhip even more pleasing.

Again, thanks to all for the helpful information passed along on this board.

Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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