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Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Hallelujah,

    a new Bangle convert has been found. Finally Howard, you and I are not the only ones.

    SOURCE: New York Times

    Bangle school of styling that so provoked BMW purists (their motto: forever square) with its restless kinks and bulges, has grown into a mature, often-imitated style that can no longer be casually dismissed. The look definitely flatters the 3 Series. It was liberally applied to the fifth-generation sedan for 2006. A coupe soon followed, along with a welcome rarity, a wagon as fun and shapely as it is practical.

    link title
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "The unity of power, steering, shifter and brakes that no other vehicle in this class can quite reproduce."

    That pretty much sums up, Dewey, why I keep coming back to BMW. A few other reasons are the great seats, perfect driving position, steering wheel feel, comfortable left foot well and engine efficiency. When the latter is compared, BMW engines always provide the best mpg. Think of those gas-guzzling Infinitis! :lemon: I'm getting better mpg in my 545i than I would be getting in an Infiniti M35 V6! :)

    I am very much looking forward to checking out the 535d when it gets here. That should be the perfect vehicle for me: driving thrills married to great fuel economy with a nice functional trunk.
    I guess it would be too much to expect it to be available for leasing in the summer of 2008 with diesel fuel nearby.

    Well, then there's always the summer of 2010! :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The Bangle look definitely flatters the 3 Series. I didn't like the tail lights at first, but I do now.

    Has a more perfect driving experience for the money ever been created than that in the BMW 3 Series? What a great vehicle!
    Should be on everyone's list as one of the greatest vehicles of all time. For pure driving pleasure, it is the best BMW, Dewey. No question about it.

    Even the entry-level 328i offers perfect driving dynamics and great fuel efficiency that the others (think Infiniti) often imitate but can never actually achieve. :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It's no surprise that I completely agree with you Dewey, and Hpowders, about the 3-Series. The BMW 3-Series rules in its class. There is no other car that has toppled the 3. And as long as BMW continues to stay ahead of the curve, as it has consistenly done, the 3 will reign for a very long time. The 3-Series is already an icon, IMO. Essentially as good as it gets in its class.

    As far as second place behind the reigning 3?... surprisingly, the newest C-Class might possibily prove itself to be a second place candidate.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If I didn't need a bigger trunk and I was a single guy, the 335i coupe or dare I even think it, the 335id (probably as a sedan at first entry) would be my unquestionable choice next year.

    As it is, I will be looking at the 2008 X3 and 5 Series offerings (hopefully as diesels). C&D recently raved about BMW's overhaul of the X3.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I am, once again, interested in the X3, as a diesel, as a vehicle to drive when it isn't appropriate to drive the 911.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    As far as second place behind the reigning 3?... surprisingly, the newest C-Class might possibily prove itself to be a second place candidate.

    I think that will most likely go to the A4 after its redesign.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Perhaps we will both be driving X3 diesels next year.

    Then we can compare how many one pound packages of Kona beans we can each squeeze into the 70 cu ft of cargo area.

    One thing I know. You will get more Kona bags into the X3 than the X5! :)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Yes, the 3-Series looks to be the reigning champ again in this class, despite some interesting new competition from the G35/37. And with the 335, it's all the more the reason it will remain at the top of the heap, for now at least.

    With Cadillac ushering in the new CTS, and with Audi fixing the Audi A4's weight distubution problems with their new MLP platforms, this segement is again warming up with cars ready to pounce on the 3-Series.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I think that will most likely go to the A4 after its redesign.

    What's the ETA?

    TagMan
  • drumminhamdrumminham Member Posts: 10
    The new A4 debuts at Frankfurt in september. My guess is around 8 months from then. Road&Track says summer of 08.

    Maybe some of you remember me from another life but I'm a huge Audi guy, and I can't wait for the B8 A4
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thanks, drumminham.

    I found some gorgeous pics (of the 2009 Audi A4).

    image

    image

    TagMan
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Those ARE gorgeous, tagman! :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    With the current A5/S5 models we have a pretty good idea of what a car with a MLP platform car will be like. The one thing missing now are more potent engines and hopefully the upcoming A4 will have them. Also will the A4 V6 be available with manual? A while ago a V6 A4 did not even have a stick.

    For me beauty is skin-deep and is embedded in a car's chassis and drivetrain. Pretty faces can go so far...
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    That A4 immediately evokes thoughts of the 3-series. If it's priced right and performs right, even a person looking specifically for a 3-series would be hard pressed to justify buying a 3-series over this.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I believe the new X5 has improved its cargo space. If the new X5 still does not have the same cargo space as a X3 than that in itself is quite pathetic.

    The new Audi Q7 got rave reviews from USAToday.

    One thing I notice about many Audi reviews is the opinion that larger displacements among Audi engines (non S or non-RS versions) are not worth the extra cost. For example various reviews did not find much of a difference between a Audi A4 2.0 vs. V6 in terms of performance. In fact almost 10 years ago many reviewers favored the A4 1.8T over the A4 2.8. The same conclusion was reached in the article linked below regarding the Q7 V6 vs the V8 version. In Audi's case much bigger is not necessarily much better

    link title
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That A4 immediately evokes thoughts of the 3-series.

    Just as the A5's styling strongly resembles that of the BMW 335i coupe.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Anybody getting an X5 is doing it strictly for the status.
    It is one of the least utilitarian SUV's out there.

    I don't mind that its 3rd row is a joke. It's far from the only SUV with a tight 3rd row. What I do mind is that it is a $1200 useless option. The 3rd row should at least be included in its base price.

    From what I have read, the X3 handles much better than the X5.
    Having driven an X5, it wouldn't take much!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The current issue of Roundel, the BMWCCA magazine, describes how much the Infiniti M has copied the BMW 5 Series stylistically.

    I was in a parking lot this morning and saw a spanking new Lexus IS. From the rear, I thought it was a new Bangle 3 Series. Tail lights looked pretty similar.

    I must admit, though, as a total external package, I do prefer the IS to the 3 Series. The Lexus is a stunning car. The best looking Lexus I have ever seen.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    From what I have read, the X3 handles much better than the X5.
    Having driven an X5, it wouldn't take much!


    The X5 3.0 is a foot longer and almost 1000 lbs. heavier than the X3. All that weight is the perfect recipe for ruined handling.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I must admit, though, as a total external package, I do prefer the IS to the 3 Series. The Lexus is a stunning car. The best looking Lexus I have ever seen.

    The so called "L-finesse" definitely works best on the IS. The only problem with the car's shape is the rear 3\4 view, which makes the wheels look small.

    image
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The same quick trip to Audiusa.com would also show that A8L 4.2TDi is not available for sale through Audi USA. So if anyone wants to get an A8 4.2TDi in the US, the cost is $120k US, plus another quater million dollars to have it imported and certified, not to mention perhaps millions to make that special car emission legal, while emasculating it in terms of power, all before that quarter million dollar certification cost.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    So if anyone wants to get an A8 4.2TDi in the US, the cost is $120k US, plus another quater million dollars to have it imported and certified, not to mention perhaps millions to make that special car emission legal, while emasculating it in terms of power, all before that quarter million dollar certification cost.

    Ok, again, that wasn't the point. The point was that a hypothetical US spec Audi A8 4.2TDi would probably be <$75K, while returning far more mileage on the highway than the 600hL.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    "The unity of power, steering, shifter and brakes that no other vehicle in this class can quite reproduce."

    Makes me wonder which "class" the writer is talking about. The writer was writing that after driving the convertible. Sure, compare to the other convertibles, such as 9-3, S70, Eos, A4, the 3 series convertible is indeed class-leading. However, I doubt the 4000lb little porker without roof reinforcement can out-handle any of the leading entries in the luxury compact sedan class, such as IS350 and G35/37, or even the TL.

    BTW, I'm rather disappointed the new 3 series convertible's result in the IIHS crash test. It earned a marginal and poor rating in a report that is supposed to highlight modern convertibles' crashworthiness . . . the Saab and Volvo entries both earned Good, and the Eos did not do badly either.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Sure, if we can hypothesize a 4.2TDi delivering the same power and fuel milage as the European model even after modifications to satisfy US emission requirement and burn a very different fuel (with lower energy content), why don't we hypothesize an LS600hL with imaginary super-light capacitors that shaves 800lbs off the weight?

    BTW, let's not forget LS600hL still delivers 100+ hp more than 4.2TDi (even with the latter spewing all the pollutants that make it illegal in the US). That's comparable to the difference between 760Li vs. 750Li. Guess what, 760Li can't boast better city mileage than 750Li like LS600hL over A8 4.2TDi.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I walked over to my car in a parking lot this morning and 2 spaces away from me was this brand new IS. Great looking from the sides! Pretty nice from the back, though the tail lights do seem to have the Bangle influence.

    The car looked very expensive! Hope the dingers leave it alone so the owner can enjoy it.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yet people continue to fall for the SUV fairy tale.

    One TV commercial for another vehicle alludes to the X5 as being sooo fast, like they're talking about a 911! ("Is it fast?" "VERY fast!")

    I haven't driven the X3 yet. It's a bit too soon for me, but the latest C&D comparo that the 2007 X3 won, paints a happy picture for the revamped X3, for the first time since 2004.

    I will check out a 2008 model early next year, hopefully as a diesel. I've been checking out some BMW forums elsewhere and there are many positive reports from 2007 X3 diesel owners.

    Hopefully, I won't have to move to Romania to drive one!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The performance of the 335i convertible should only be compared to other convertibles in its class. That retractable hardtop puts it at a distinct disadvantage handling wise due to the extra mass, no doubt about it. I'm sure a 335i coupe or sedan can run rings around it. The convertible is a compromise and as Designman has said, the novelty wears off quickly. It would really wear off quickly if I got caught in a sudden Florida thunderstorm and the roof gizmo decided not to work!

    I agree about the crash test results. There is no room for a second place finisher. Either the car comes in first place and it is safe or it doesn't and isn't.

    Finally, I absolutely do not like how the 335i convertible looks with the top up. Looks a bit "disjointed."

    Realistically, I need a functional BMW, so I will be looking at 2008 versions of the 335i sedan, X3 and 535i, hopefully all engineered with diesel fuel efficiency by the summer of 2008.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Realistically, I need a functional BMW, so I will be looking at 2008 versions of the 335i sedan, X3 and 535i, hopefully all engineered with diesel fuel efficiency by the summer of 2008.

    Yes... very "realistic" choices. ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The so called "L-finesse" definitely works best on the IS. The only problem with the car's shape is the rear 3\4 view, which makes the wheels look small.

    Agree, the stock 10-spoke 17" rims aren't large enough for this car. The optional 18" rims are a much better choice for the IS.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    There was an ad on TV this past weekend that mentioned discounted leases on the IS. There were no particulars though.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Lexus needs to make the IS cabin a bit less claustrophobic and to improve its driving dynamics. It already is a killer in straight line acceleration. I don't believe it has won any head to head comparos with the 3 Series recently. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to read about it.

    The IS is a car that draws attention to it.

    Regarding the lease, I'm sure in the fine print that passes by in a millisecond on the bottom of the screen, there is a big cash outlay up front (capital cost reduction) that makes the monthly payment seem a bigger bargain than it really is. They all do it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Lexus needs to make the IS cabin a bit less claustrophobic and to improve its driving dynamics. It already is a killer in straight line acceleration. I don't believe it has won any head to head comparos with the 3 Series recently. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to read about it.

    The IS350 lost to the 330i by a small margin in an October '05 C&D comparison test. The rankings were as follows:

    1. 330i
    2. IS350
    3. G35 (old one)
    4. TL
    5. A4
    6. CTS
    7. S60R
    8. 9-3

    I've never seen a comparison test where the IS has beaten the 3. While Lexus USA was able to convince the top brass to include a VDIM off switch for '07, I just don't see the car beating the new G or the 335i.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    IMO there are three subgroups within the entry level lux-performance sedan segment:

    1) The Lexus IS vs. MB C Class vs. Cadillac CTS

    2) The BMW 3 Series vs. the Infiniti G vs. the Audi A4

    3) The Volve S60 vs. the Acura TL vs. the Saab 9-3/9-5

    A person who loves his C Class is unlikely to crave an Infinit G or a BMW 3 series. And a BMW 3 series driver is unlikely to want a new Volvo S60.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    What stands out most on the buyer survey below is the following:

    1) The number one highest quality auto available in the USA is a MB S Class

    2) Toyota/Lexus is losing its lead in terms of reliability (least problems)

    3) The difference between qualtiy perception and reality is widest for Hyundais

    The 2007 Total Quality Awards&#153;
    Hyundai - 3, Toyota - 0; Perceived Quality the New Paradigm Says Strategic Vision
    For immediate release - Monday, June 4, 2007

    [Adobe PDF version available]

    San Diego &#150; For the first time ever, the Hyundai brand has produced the most leaders on Strategic Vision&#146;s Total Quality Index&#153; (TQI), leading in three segments. The San-Diego-based research firm today announced 2007 results, based on the ratings of new vehicle owners in 19 product segments.

    The only other brand to produce three leaders was Nissan. Hyundai Motors had a total of five leaders (the Kia brand earning two more), Ford Motor and BMW Group each earned three (one for BMW, two for Mini); GM, Honda, and Mercedes each earned two with Dodge, Lexus and Volkswagen each earning one. BMW repeated as the top scoring brand, the eighth time in nine years, and Volkswagen of America kept its claim as the best full-line corporation.

    The Total Quality Index&#153; is the premier measure of new vehicle owner satisfaction. It asks buyers to rate all aspects of the ownership experience, from buying and owning to driving. Although Toyota improved overall with their TQI scores, the most significant change in 2007 is the lack of any Toyota brand segment leaders. Examining the number of problems or Things-Gone-Wrong per vehicle (the traditional definition of quality), Toyota and Lexus are still among the best. However, Toyota&#146;s lead in this narrower definition of quality is now shared with other brands like Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti and domestic brands such as Ford. For example, the Ford Expedition EL enjoyed a very large lead and had fewest problems in the segment. Expedition EL owners recognized innovative changes, which are key to future domestic success.

    &#147;With automotive corporations now doing a terrific job in providing vehicles with minimal problems, the Cues of Quality (those product attributes that signal quality and create customer Trust) have a greater impact on the purchase decision. Perceived Quality has the power to change customer&#146;s perceptions of a vehicle from being &#145;interesting&#146; to eventually considered and purchased,&#148; says Alexander Edwards, Strategic Vision President. &#147;In the past, one could count the number of problems per vehicle; but for automotive customers today and tomorrow, a comprehensive and integrated perception of the ownership experience will be what drives the decision making process.&#148;

    &#147;Even though Hyundai is often overlooked by the US customer, Hyundai&#146;s success in 2007 is not surprising given its&#146; current products and press in leadership that is looking to the near and distant future with new designs from styling to powertrain,&#148; reports Dr. Darrel Edwards, Founder and CEO of Strategic Vision.

    Long time leader Honda Odyssey (five years in a row) has now been replaced by the Hyundai Entourage, Kia Sedona and Nissan Quest in a three-way tie for this segment. The Ford F-150 returns to a leadership position in this most tightly contested segment, tied with the Nissan Titan.

    Buyers rated the following vehicles tops in their segments:
    Segment Winner(s) TQI Score
    Small Car Honda Civic 882
    Small Multi-Function Volkswagen Rabbit 880
    Medium Car Saturn Aura
    Nissan Maxima 892
    891
    Large Car Hyundai Azera 901

    Small Specialty Under $25,000 Mini Cooper 911
    Near Luxury Car BMW 3-Series Sedan 919
    Luxury Car Mercedes-Benz S-Class Sedan 938
    Convertibles Under $30,000 Mini Cooper Convertible 905
    Convertibles Over $30,000 Chevrolet Corvette Convertible 930
    Minivan Kia Sedona
    Hyundai Entourage
    Nissan Quest 866
    866
    865
    Small SUV Hyundai Santa Fe 885
    Medium SUV Kia Sorento 889
    Medium Crossover Dodge Magnum 882
    Large SUV Ford Expedition EL 918
    Near Luxury SUV Lexus RX 350 905
    Luxury SUV Mercedes-Benz ML 915
    Standard Pick-Up Honda Ridgeline 879

    Full-Size Pickup Nissan Titan
    Ford F-150 876
    875

    Heavy Duty Pickup Ford F-250/350 876


    &#147;Unlike last year, we&#146;re seeing many new or redesigned vehicles not ranking near the top of their segments.&#147; says Alexander. &#147;These vehicles typically have the potential to deliver more rational and emotional elements which are relevant to buyers. Although the Honda Fit, Nissan Versa and Toyota Yaris all did well, they did not hit the same emotional cord which resounded in the DNA of the Volkswagen Rabbit buyers.&#148;

    Responses from more than 27,000 buyers who bought 2007 models in September, October and November of 2006 were used to calculate the Total Quality Index&#153;. Strategic Vision has calculated TQI annually since 1995.

    Since its incorporation in 1989, Strategic Vision has studied consumer and constituent decision-making for the widest variety of clients, including most auto manufacturers, Coca-Cola, American Airlines, Procter and Gamble, most advertising agencies. Its unique expertise is identifying consumers&#146; motivational hierarchies, including the values that shape perceptions and capture the customers&#146; emotional responses and drive behavior. The firm&#146;s in-depth Discovery Interviews and ValueCentered Surveys provide comprehensive, integrated, and actionable outcomes.

    link title
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for the test results, LG!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, the vehicles are realistic choices.

    I would imagine that BMW will first offer diesels here for the vehicles that need it most: the X5 and perhaps, the X3.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Interesting, really interesting.

    I'm clearly in the 2) group, with shades of 1). Wouldn't be caught dead in 3).

    I blew off 1) for a variety of reasons (handling, reliability & never owning another US branded car in this class), but the net is still the same.

    Anyway, these are three distinct categories in my world, and I wouldn't have thought of sorting them this way without guidance.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. Good point. The Infiniti G and Audi A4 are the direct performance-oriented competitors of the 3 Series...

    But don't you think that Lexus has the IS aimed squarely at BMW's 335i and not the MB?

    As an aside: those Anaheim Ducks look mighty impressive!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "I can understand that."

    I welcome it and its time is long overdue.

    The infiltration of diesels in our vehicles will eventually result in placing less money in the hands of those who hate the USA.

    The public will come around when the reviews begin trickling in about how wonderful the new diesels really are.
    They need to know these are not the smelly, smoky diesels of yesteryear and that buying these vehicles will be good for America.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Also, the public will come around when the reviews begin trickling in about how wonderful the new diesels really are.
    They need to know these are not the smelly, smoky diesels of yesteryear.


    Exactly. It won't take too long, once the word gets aout and the marketing money starts to roll. it's too early right now, but when the time is right, every manufacturer that advertisies their clean diesel will help every other manufacturer sell theirs as well.

    BTW, I have already gone on record as saying that the IS is a 3-Series chaser... so it seems we agree on that also.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I would think that if Dewey's list was presented to the Lexus top brass, they would be incredulous at not seeing the IS as being a 3 Series competitor.

    There does appear to be a disconnect in what they feel a serious 3 Series competitor should entail.

    I am at a loss to understand their mind set, because in reality, Dewey's list speaks the truth.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    There's the difference... and you've clarified it.

    The Lexus IS is intended to be a 3-Series competitor, but in reality it doesn't really stack up.

    Lexus top brass?... they know it... that's why all the work on an IS500 or something to that effect. But, sorry to say, it still will never be a 3-Series.

    On the other hand, that 2009 A4 that I posted the pics last night... THAT car is going to make waves.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I wish Audi would stop already with that front grille. It blemishes a nice design, IMO.

    I would like to see this one up close, though.

    Love those wheels in the top photo!

    Looks like the 3 Series and now the A4 are both becoming a bit larger.

    Looking forward to the reviews.

    Thanks for the photos.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The performance of the 335i convertible should only be compared to other convertibles in its class.

    That's more or less the point that I have been making. The 335i can only be compared to other convertibles in its class. What are these convertibles? Here's the list:

    1. the ancient and soon-to-be-replaced 9-3;
    2. the Ford Focus-based S70;
    3. the ancient and soon-to-be-replaced A4;
    4. the new but softly-sprung Eos

    In other words, "top of the class" praise rings quite hollow when the class is made up of special-needs summer session students.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Not bloody likely at all. Diesel equivalents of 328i and 528i, perhaps, but no way are they gonna deliver a 300hp diesel I-6 in 2008.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Once again you've missed something in the translation. The point was that those vehicles would be nice choices, hopefully in time for the expiration of hpowder's current lease. No one posted that they were expecting a 300hp diesel in '08.

    How you could possibly make such an interpretation remains a mystery.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The 335i convertible is just too impractical for me as a daily driver. I need decent trunk space.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    For people who pay more attention to the first foot of the car, where the marque is located, than the rest of the car, perhaps. But for people who pay more attention to the functionalities of cars, the rules proposed hardly make any sense. Dual brand or multi-brand ownership are quite common around where I live. I actually went from a 5 series sedan to a 9-5 half a dozen years ago. Today's 3 series are about the same weight as the 5 series from that time frame. Soon enough, I will probably have a 3 series parked right next to the 9-5, unless an IS convertible shows up. BTW, the IS is definitely more of a competitor to 3 series than to a C class.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If the diesel varieties offer something like 220~240hp, is that an alternative to the 230hp 328i/528i or the 300hp 335i/535i??
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